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Ringhilwen
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Post Hobbits-Iluvatar's Stealth Weapon? [save]
on: February 26, 2003 05:53
Alright, so I was sitting in my Middle Earth and Bharata Varsha class tonight, bored out of my mind as usual. Most of the time, I sit with two of my friends and listen to my professor drone on about Hindu philosophy, and correcting him whenever he talks about Middle Earth, which is somewhat rare, though it's supposed to make up half the material.

Anyway, I was about to fall asleep when he started talking about hobbits, and their "racial eschatology" or the ultimate destiny of their race.

To quote my professor, he called hobbits, "Iluvatar's Stealth Weapon against Sauron." I thought it was a really interesting way to think about hobbits, since we don't really know their origins, but they all come in, just in time, to get involved with the One Ring. I mean, the entire Lord of the Rings wouldn't have been possible without the hobbits, and Sauron may never have been destroyed. Deagol, Smeagol, Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam all had the Ring at one point...all were "hobbits". (yeah, everyone knows this point).

The thing I got thinking about was that Sauron overlooked the hobbits (and the Ents too it seemed) in his quest to dominate all of Middle Earth. My professor was very adamant that the hobbits in particular were shielded from the gaze of Sauron early on, perhaps due to a higher power, which is where his idea of "Stealth Weapons" came in.

I was just curious as to what everyone else thought about this. It may have been debated before, but I thought it was interesting.

(This Stealth Weapon thing is NOT my personal opinion, just a thought I, um, thought would be fun to debate.)



[Edited on 5/11/2003 by PotbellyHairyfoot]
k
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Post RE: Hobbits-Iluvatar's Stealth Weapon? [save]
on: February 26, 2003 06:08
perhaps but i dont think thats quite the way i would put it.

i think that sauron knew they exsisted, but i think he also just paid them little attention. as a lord and tyrant the only thing that would have concerned sauron was power... who had it and who wanted it and who was able to gain it.

the elves were a threar being natuarally powerful and having hte three rings, that were in themselves powerful. although their strength was failing it was far from gone.

the istari of course were powerful, they were maia equal perhaps to sauron. and at least one of them wanted power.. saruman.

the men, aragorn was of the race of numenor, sauron of course had had dealings with them in the past he knew that their race was able to gain power. and he knew that an heir of isiuldur was roaming middle earth.

then the dwarves, they didnt appear to desire power themselves but they were fierce allies for those that did.

then when you look at the hobbits... a group of small folk living quietly in a part of middle earth, keeping to themselves and not desiring any more than what they had.

with those other races to concern himself with i can see why he didnt add hobbits into the equation if you like, they had never shown any desire to be involved with affairs outside where they lived, so why would sauron consider them important in this fight for middle earth in his mind he had more to fear from men elves and dwarves, as well as istari and also keeping his own side in check... making sure the orcs or easterlings or sourthrons didnt try any funny buisness.

i dont think that it was a deliberate plan of eru or the valar, for hobbits to be the way they were in order to defeat sauron. it was just able to happen that way because of the way saruon was

(written at 4am forgive the typos and strange rambling if there is any... will proabbly edit some tommorow)
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: Hobbits-Iluvatar's Stealth Weapon? [save]
on: February 27, 2003 06:26
Yes Ringhilwen that is an interesting thought. Hobbits as a stealth weapon.
I started thinking about the Hobbits as a secret weapon against Sauron and then it hit me. The hobbits were first noticed on middle-earth at around the same time that the Istari also appeared.
I don't know why I never noticed that before. Were the Istari and the hobbits both put on ME in the same century for the same reasons?
And Gandalf always kept an eye on what was going on with hobbits. It was Gandalf that sent Bilbo on the journey where he acquired the ring. Gandalf feared what the ring would do to him if he held it- but he let Frodo keep it. Was he awqare that hobbits were built to withstand the power of the Ring. All of the other races were on middle-earth long before the ring was forged. Were the Hobbits a response from illuvatar to its forging - a creature able to resist the rings power beter than the other creatures that were already there. The only creatures to handle the Ring after Isudur were hobbits. Could that be what they were put on ME for?

[Edited on 28/2/2003 by PotbellyHairyfoot]
numtelpion
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Post RE: Hobbits-Iluvatar's Stealth Weapon? [save]
on: February 27, 2003 07:18
Yeah, quite a debate...fun! i like this!
However, no, i dont the Istari theory holds up, for two reasons:
1. Five Istari were sent to middle-earth, and only Mithrandir learned about Hobbits to any great degree. Saruman, as you might remember, eventually learned about them, but the fact that he was able to subdue them so easily, and yet did not do so for many years lends support to the fact that he simply did not know about them. Radagast doesnt even know when he is on the borders of the shire, or what it is.
2. Gandalf had to learn about them himself, and it says several times that he was surprised by their abilities. Certainly he was wise, but i dont think he had any preordained knowledge of what hobbits could do.
Just my two cents.
Melkolindale
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Post RE: Hobbits-Iluvatar's Stealth Weapon? [save]
on: February 28, 2003 10:26
Wow, I never noticed that before- Hobbits began to be noticed very close to the time that the Istari came to ME. That a really interesting thought to think that they were put on earth for the purpose of destroying the Ring. I wonder if it's any coincidence that we have NO idea where the Hobbits come from, except that they were closely related to men.

I just looked up the entry in the Complete Guide to ME, and it said that Hobbits were "created in the First Age," but not noticed until around 1050 TA. Is there anything Tolkien wrote to back this up that anyone knows of?
Parmadur
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Post RE: Hobbits-Iluvatar's Stealth Weapon? [save]
on: February 28, 2003 11:17
I'm not so sure that the entire race of hobbits was made for future destruction of the Ring so much as the five specific hobbits that Ringhilwen mentioned in her first post.

I'm a strong believer in the possibility of fate so I'm a bit biased in my opinion here, but maybe the hobbits' lifestyle that gave them strength. All of the hobbits are carefree, giving, very into family, friends, and fun. They're simple and try to stay out of complicated affairs and don't really covet power or prestige (though the latter is accepted when offered by peers, ie: Sam as Mayor and Merry & Pippin after returning from the Quest). They lived this way for years and years before Bilbo or Frodo ever came along, so it was the norm for these two to not expect much more from life than what they already had.

I feel like I may be reiterating what's already common knowledge, but the lifestyle just seems to be more of a factor than the race itself.

Although, they are small, so they're underestimated and easy to overlook. All of these big, powerful people are going about their business and they've never been introduced to little people before (except the Dwarves, and they're a rough race), so why should they be worried about a hobbit defeating them?

My brain is overworked today, lol. Pardon the messiness of the post.
Aowyn
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Post RE: Hobbits-Iluvatar's Stealth Weapon? [save]
on: March 03, 2003 01:53
Wow! I never really thought about hobbits in this way--and particularly about some of the time line things that PBHF pointed out. Very interesting to think about! I guess my own interpretation has always been very similar to Parmadur's--the nature of Hobbits and they way they lived their lives made them "more incorruptable", I guess you'd say, than the other races. So I'd have to say no, I don't think that Iluvatar deliberately created them with the destruction of the Ring in mind. Plus the personalities of the key Hobbits...I don't know that any one of the Hobbits in the whole Shire could have done it, and I tend to doubt that. But again, very interesting question
Ring, it's too bad your professor mentions M-E as little as he does
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: Hobbits-Iluvatar's Stealth Weapon? [save]
on: November 05, 2003 04:40
There were stoors living along the banks of the Anduin for just enough time for one of them to recover the Ring and then they disappeared. The Ring ends up hidden for centuries by Smeagol right in the midst of the forces of evil [in a cave under a colony of orcs] and then is found by a new Hobbit keeper who brings it to a somewhat safer place farther from where it was lost. A third hobbit then comes into possession of it and finally , in the nick of time, brings it to the only place wher it can be destroyed. The one Ring was in the possesion of Hobbits for over 550 years [2463-3019]. It could be argued that the ring had an effect on hobbits but was unable to truly corrupt their minds -[ I personaly feel that Smeagol started out somewhat skulking and evil and wasn't turned that way by his possession of the Ring].
It IS quite posible that hobbits were placed on ME for that very purpose- to keep the ring from beings that could use it for evil purpose and had the power and desire to do significant harm with it.
Ringhilwen
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Post RE: Hobbits-Iluvatar's Stealth Weapon? [save]
on: November 05, 2003 01:03
I'm a strong believer in the possibility of fate so I'm a bit biased in my opinion here, but maybe the hobbits' lifestyle that gave them strength.

Although, they are small, so they're underestimated and easy to overlook.
I meant for their lifestyle to be inherent in the argument that their race was overlooked, maybe even purposely protected. Men, Elves, and Dwarves developed a completely different lifestyle because they were forced to deal with the evil of Sauron, and the evil of Melkor in the past. If Men for example had not been forced to take on the threats of evil, they may have developed to be a carefree and happy race of people, just like the hobbits. To me, saying their race was overlooked by Sauron would be the same as saying Sauron overlooked the hobbits because of their lifestyle.
Argonath
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Post RE: Hobbits-Iluvatar's Stealth Weapon? [save]
on: May 10, 2006 04:11
If Iluvatar decided to do something about Sauron, he wouldn't exactly need stealth to do it. He would probably just sing Sauron's ass off.

The hobbits "stealthy" nature in the end helped to save the day, but it's hard to say that they were "put there" for that reason.
Fattybolger
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Post RE: Hobbits-Iluvatar's Stealth Weapon? [save]
on: May 10, 2006 04:33
If Iluvatar decided to do something about Sauron, he wouldn't exactly need stealth to do it. He would probably just sing Sauron's ass off.



I just LOVE that!

It would have saved everybody else a mort of trouble. However, no use asking why he doesn't do it. It's the old, old question of why an omnipotent good God permits evil to flourish, to which there is no final answer.

One could ask why any M.E. race was created. The Valar are Eru's deputies, I suppose, and Elves and Men are his 'children'; Dwarves are his step-children; Orcs are his children kidnapped, abused and gone to the bad. There's a hint in Sil. that Ents were created by Yavanna to look after trees, so they at least have a purpose. Hobbit, like Ents, don't seem to have been part of JRT's original schema and never entirely fitted into it.

Perhaps the 'free peoples' don't really need a purpose. They live because Eru wants them to. In the early chapters of Sil. the Valar seem to think that the 'purpose' of Elves is to live it up in Valinor; nice work if you can get it. It may be that the ultimate purpose of Men is to glorify God - a good Catholic viewpoint that is hinted at here and there in Sil. & other writings.

No doubt Eru had a 'reason' for creating hobbits, but that's not the same as a purpose, particularly not the purpose of doing down Sauron - though it's an interesting idea. If their origins go back into the First Age, and they were useful for doing down great sorcerors, why weren't they 'used' to do down Morgoth?

It's surely more as individuals that Gollum, Bilbo and Frodo become involved in the finding and destruction of the Ring. And as individuals they clearly do have a purpose, presumably conferred on them by Eru: 'Bilbo was meant to find the Ring ...you, too [Frodo] were meant to have it.' To an extent the choice is not so much conferred as forced on them - 'They didn't choose themselves' - but Frodo, at least, accepts his fate willingly (an old paradox this!) and Elrond tells him that his 'choice is right'.

So was the entire hobbit race created solely in order to produce Bilbo and Frodo?
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: Hobbits-Iluvatar's Stealth Weapon? [save]
on: May 12, 2006 08:50
So was the entire Hobbit race created solely in order to produce Bilbo and Frodo?


It was more than just Bilbo and Frodo. Merry and Pippin became very important in the War. If they hadn't gotten the Ents to go to War, Rohan may have been completely destroyed and no aid would have been sent.
Also; If not for them the Lord of the Nazgul would not have been made flesh so that Eowyn could destroy him, and Faramir would have been cremated alive.

Hobbits seemingly came into Middle-earth quietly and only came into the notice of the other races only when something huge and future-changing had to be done in regards to the battle against Evil.

[Edited on 12/5/2006 by PotbellyHairyfoot]
Ringhilwen
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Post RE: Hobbits-Iluvatar's Stealth Weapon? [save]
on: May 14, 2006 03:04
If Iluvatar decided to do something about Sauron, he wouldn't exactly need stealth to do it. He would probably just sing Sauron's ass off.


I think there's so many examples in the books of how completely untrue that would be. Only in one war was it said that the Valar sent help - later on, they could have stopped Sauron before Numenor was destroyed, before the Last Alliance - heck, could have stopped him before he even made it to Middle-earth if Eru knew what he would do. Eru was always one to use more mysterious methods - to me, the creation of a race that could be overlooked and uncorrupted, would be just up his alley.
Argonath
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Post RE: Hobbits-Iluvatar's Stealth Weapon? [save]
on: May 14, 2006 05:46
Eru was always one to use more mysterious methods - to me, the creation of a race that could be overlooked and uncorrupted, would be just up his alley.


You mean that God works in mysterious ways? Which is a frequently used response in religious discussions when one is unable to logically or factually demonstrate an assertion. Then again, my bad, cause blessed is he who believes without seeing.

Apologies for the half-witted attempts at humour that for no obvious reason insinuate that you are logically and/or factually offside. Then again, my first post was primarily humoristic in intent which perhaps is suggested by the phrasing.

Back to the point if there ever was one. I did not (wish to) say that either Ilúvatar, especially not Him, or the Valar used to directly intervene in Middle-Earth's conflicts; though there were as you say a few occasions that they did. On the contrary, I believe that Ilúvatar is a clear example of the God who creates the world but does not take an active part in the events within this world, a view that is certainly supported by Tolkien's own writings as well as much of Christian myth. Which is why I questioned the idea of Ilúvatar putting Hobbits in Middle-Earth as some kind of stealth weapon to begin with as this would mean that Ilúvatar did take an active, direct part in the world. Albeit using stealth.

Of course, the premise for the entire story is that Ilúvatar created the world to begin with. So anything that happens in this world could naturally be construed as God's work depending on one's degree of determinism. That point I have to concede and do so willingly and knowingly.

Summer greetings from Sweden. Would that be today's equivalent to Angmar?
Yano
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Post RE: Hobbits-Iluvatar's Stealth Weapon? [save]
on: May 14, 2006 08:26
I'm a strong believer in the possibility of fate so I'm a bit biased in my opinion here, but maybe the hobbits' lifestyle that gave them strength.


I think another part of it is hobbits have never had a taste for power or riches. Yes, there are class differences among them, and there are hobbits like the Sackville-Bagginses who are after money. But, they want money for petty reasons. Not really as a source of power over other hobbits. Also, being small, hobbits don't really have the power or desire to go out and change the world the way Elves or Dwarves or Men do. I think this is why, as my dad pointed out, the only ring-bearers who are able to consciencely give up the ring are hobbits: Bilbo and Sam.

I don't really know where hobbits came from, but I don't think they moved to the Shire until after the Barrow-Downs were established...

I was just reading in the thread comparing the Silmarils to the One Ring and found the following quoted from Morgoth's Ring:
The effect of each is intensified by proximity and possession, and each has an effect proportional to the power and nature of the holder.


As previously mentioned, hobbits are not very powerful, so the ring would have less of an effect on hobbits vs. other races.

[Edited on 15/5/2006 by Yano]
arelenriel
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Post RE: Hobbits-Iluvatar's Stealth Weapon? [save]
on: August 25, 2006 12:29
It says in the forward to LOTR that hobbits had always lived quietly in the area between the borders of Mirkwood, The Misty Mountains and the Anduin. I think that initially Tolkein began to look at them as one of the branches of men that had broken off from the three Houses soon after the Edain awoke in ME rather like the Druadan. Do I think that it is chance that they became noticed around the time the Istari showed up .. no way. Because they were not(other than the Sackville Baggins's , and possibly Gollum) interested in wealth or power they were probably the only of the Free Peoples of ME that would be almost invulnerable to its influence. Even Gollum suffered from a split personality because the Rings influence caused him to go against the very nature of the Hobbit he originally was. So perhaps they could be seen as a secret weapon of Iluvater because when you are in a war it is more often than not the meek little private who spends his days cleaning toilets that will when all hope seems lost pick up the company standard and rally the troops in battle. Because it goes against everything that Sauron and Sarumans spies tell them about hobbits of course they have the hubris to assume they are no threat. Gandalf and the Rangers having seen the hobbits backed into corners before e.g. the Long Winter, and the Battle of Greenfields. just how deadly the hobbits could be if home and family were threatened in any way. This is what would make them a secret weapon because in the eyes of the enemies they would appear as children until they were messed with.

[Edited on 25/8/2006 by arelenriel]
Maesyfelin
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Post RE: Hobbits-Iluvatar's Stealth Weapon? [save]
on: August 28, 2006 08:19
Throughout the books many men talk downwards to Hobbits but after many of the the events that happened in the book i have come to the conclusion that in the third age Hobbits where Superior or at least more influential race. Would a man be able to resist the ring in the way which Frodo did for so long would one average man be able to defeat Shelob or save Frodo from Cirith Ungol. Gandalf, Galadriel, Boromir, Smeagol and Isuldur couldn't carry the ring but Frodo could (for a long time until the end in fact) dosn't this tell you something!

(sorry for the typos my English isn't too good especially when i'm ranting)
Argonath
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Post RE: Hobbits-Iluvatar's Stealth Weapon? [save]
on: September 03, 2006 01:15
I don't think anyone in this thread is criticizing Hobbits, so there is really no need to mount a very strong defence.

Regarding the conclusion that Hobbits were the superior or more influential race [unclear with whom you compare; Men?, Men and Elves?, Men, Elves and Wizards?] based on the argument that Hobbits (or perhaps more precisely, Frodo) was able to carry the Ring or at least have a very strong resistance to It. How do you figure? I feel that perhaps you got your argument backwards. Right now you argue; Hobbits can carry the Ring, therefore they are superior. Instead the argument, according to me, most likely is this; Hobbits are a less powerful and more humble race, therefore they frequently have a higher degree of resistance to It. The argument is made frequently throughout the books that the Ring's power would increase relative to the power and strength of the bearer. With Gandalf, this is even made into an explicit point: "through me it would a power to great and terrible to imagine".

Perhaps one of Tolkien's many points is that we shouldn't focus so much on which race or which people has the most power as our society has a tendency to do. Which would mean that the issue of which race was most powerful in the third age is a rather moot one. Or?
ArFeiniel
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Post RE: Hobbits-Iluvatar's Stealth Weapon? [save]
on: September 04, 2006 09:58
A thought here that harks back to some things discussed earlier in this thread.

When Gandalf is explaining to Frodo how the Ring came to him, he tells Frodo that "There was more than one power at work...beyond any design of the Ring-maker." "Bilbo was meant to find the Ring...you also were meant to have it."

I don't think that Eru created Hobbits simply for the purpose of carrying and ultimately destroying the Ring. However, once they were created (for whatever purpose) and the characteristics and lifestyle of their race had evolved, it became clear to either Eru or the Valar (or both) that here was an opportunity to help the peoples of ME without getting openly involved. Except for extenuating circumstances, they leave ME alone to it's fate. By causing the Ring to end up in the hands of hobbits, they are assisting without influencing per se.

So, while the hobbits weren't created with that job in mind, Eru could still make use of them.
cirdaneth
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Post Re: Hobbits-Iluvatar
on: June 13, 2012 11:21
*bump
I love this one.
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