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athens_pie
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Post Gollum/Sméagol Debate
on: April 13, 2003 04:48
:: sorry if this has been discussed before ::

I just saw The Two Towers for the EIGHTH time last night (approx. 24 hours of TT - bwahahahaha ) and it just confirmed something that's been bothering me since the first time I saw the thing waaaay back in December...

Has anyone else noticed that, more often than not, people in the audience are laughing at the Gollum/Sméagol debate scene?

I mean, granted, your first reaction might be to nervously chuckle a bit and I guess the "nope" line is kinda comical...but, to laugh consistently throughout the whole thing? Even after the Sméagol-half starts obviously crying and whimpering "I hate you"...? :dizzy:

IMO, PJ makes it pretty clear that it's not supposed to be a comical scene. *shrugs* I always saw Gollum/Sméagol as a creature in pain - annoying and dangerous, yes - but worthy of pity all the same. And definitely not funny.
ElvenBeauty321
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Post RE: Gollum/Sméagol Debate
on: April 13, 2003 07:13
I saw the movie twice(your eight times beats me by far!), and i must admit that i laughed both times during the Smeagle/Gollum debat. It wasnt like i was rolling on the floor with laughter, but i found it funny somehow. Now that i think about im not sure why i found it funny, maybe because before you just see Gollum, full of this scary evil and desire for the ring. And now you get to see the sensitive side refusing the evil one.But dont get me wrong, i pity poor Smeagle because of what the ring did to him, and you can even see it start corrupting Frodo, like when he attacks Sam.I dont know what happens in TROFK, but i hope Smeagle(and Frodo too) will finally find relief from the ring."Curse it into the fire!!!"

~*ElvenBeauty321*~
sepdet
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Post RE: Gollum/Sméagol Debate
on: April 13, 2003 08:25
I think yes and no.

I'm not surprised at inappropriate laughter during that scene. It catches its viewers with humor, then, after they're paying attention and in a receptive mood because they're grinning, it goes for the throat. It starts out being somewhat comic: "Nobody likes you!" so that people are paying close attention, and then gradually works its way around to the serious, tragic side of the character. I thought that was brilliant.

A pathetic and/or strange-looking, strange-acting person is often a staple of "comic" material, the stuff we pretend not to laugh at, but which human nature seems to enjoy secretly smiling about. Movies have certainly capitalized on that for years. I'm not sure whether it's cultural or instinctive. Probably both.

That sort of comedy is often funny and horrible all at once.


I don't think people would've listened if they had to watch a little expository "here's Gollum's psyche on a platter" scene. Straight angst, or his creepy side, or his tortured inner self are uncomfortable, awkward topics that people don't entirely enjoy watching, and it's easier to screw them up anyway-- only the best writers can make something like The Color Purple. I notice that at the end of TTT, people's eyes tend to glaze over while Sam's talking: they're just watching the cool special effects while he natters on. Serious material can lose an audience.

This was a blend, as most of Gollum's scenes are a blend, of conflicting impulses: comedy and tragedy, a sympathetic character versus a sinister character. He flips back and forth and is often both at once, in the book, and this was a very good way of getting across his inner conflict, so that later, when he's alternately stroking his head or patting his shoulder, the audience understands what's going on.


Gallows humor exists for a reason. Laughter-- even inappropriate, tasteless jokes-- is a way that the human psyche processes things it finds horrible. It takes away their sting, a little bit.

I learned that all too well in high school in the 80s, when kids used to tease me, "your father is a murderer!" because he was a space shuttle engineer. I finally understood: they weren't really trying to be cruel, though laughter at other's expense is a common way for people to boost themselves; they were trying to scale down something that was hard to deal with by making poor jokes.


[Edited on 4/13/03 by sepdet]
Elven_Sweetheart
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Post RE: Gollum/Sméagol Debate
on: April 13, 2003 08:31
Yeah I have only seen TTT once:cry:but the time I went to see it I saw it I took a friend and she hadn't seen FOTR yet and she asked me if there were two Gollum's in that scene:dizzy:, she thought that he was cute because he kinda acts like a little puppy so she laughed at him.I really pited him,and every one in the crowed was laughing at him.I did chuckle a little though
Lobelia
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Post RE: Gollum/Sméagol Debate
on: April 13, 2003 09:36
Perhaps I was just lucky, but neither of the two times that I saw that I saw The Two Towers was there any laughter at Gollum from members of the audience. Admittedly the second time, which was only a week ago, there were only 18-20 people there because it was the last week it was being shown .

About the only laughter was in affectionate response to the comic relief provided by Gimli and to Merry & Pippins's interaction with Treebeard.
Lórellin
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Post RE: Gollum/Sméagol Debate
on: April 13, 2003 10:08
I have seen TTT 3 times so far, and yes I did noticed people laughing during the Gollum/Smeagol debate scenes every time. I agree with Sepdet completelly( very nicely said ),... and I can understand people laughing and chuckling and so on, also kids- you know... I personally found these scenes upseting, and felt relly sad for this tormented creature....and also I would add that many of the people did not read the books at all when they saw this film ( I know this is a film forum , I am not going to debate books here), what I am trying to say is that they are not really formilliar how deep this character really is ( no offence to anyone, do not mean this in a bad way). Like, my ex hubby went with me first time to the cinema, and he found Gollum/Smeagol funny, he never read LOTR or The Hobbit, he did not know anything about Gollum/Smeagol and so I had to explain few things about the character to him. The next time when we went to see it he did not laugh that much.

Talking about Gollum, my friend Andrew was over my flat today, and he has a terrible cold, so he cannot speak, so we were calling him Gollum all day long, we just could not help it, he sooooo sounded like him... he was not pleased with it.

[Edited on 13/4/2003 by Lórellin]

[Edited on 19/4/2003 by Lórellin]
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Post RE: Gollum/Sméagol Debate
on: April 14, 2003 04:28
The only bits i find funny in it are.

"You don't have anyfriends, nobody likes you."
"Not listening, not listenging."

The first one is funny cuase of the way he says it and it reminds me of that advert with those Gremlins taunting the people who can't read and/or write

and the second one cuase, well, it's cute.

But the rest of the scene is serious and i didn't laugh in it and i haven't really laughed at that scene since the first time i saw it. I do feel sorry for Smeagol though. It's so sad. I wish he could just get better and finally be free from the ring, but instead he dies (i think). Well atleast he may find peace after death.

oh, and i've seen the film 9 times. I'm aiming to reach 10.

[Edited on 14/4/2003 by neo222]

[Edited on 14/4/2003 by neo222]
Cressida
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Post RE: Gollum/Sméagol Debate
on: April 14, 2003 06:13
To add to the good points made above, I'd like to add that the scene may have originally been planned to take a more serious turn. We know that the flashback showing how Smeagol committed murder to acquire the Ring was filmed for TTT but that it will probably show up in ROTK. My guess is that we would have seen it around the time when Gollum calls Smeagol a murderer and Smeagol becomes upset, showing that the accusation has hit home. This would have darkened the tone of that sequence considerably. Maybe they made the early parts a little lighter on purpose because they were planning to sock the audience with something heavy right afterward.

The audience has usually laughed at that scene in the four times I've been there too--I usually chuckle a bit myself--but I don't think that means they don't get how tortured Gollum is. As Sepdet said, it's funny and horrible at the same time.
Figwit
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Post RE: Gollum/Sméagol Debate
on: April 14, 2003 08:32
I see all your points, but when I saw TTT (all three times) people didn't stop laughing and they didn't get the message

as a matter of fact, most people think of Gollum as eather 'cute' (in a Yoda kinda way) or 'evil'... and he's neither
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Post RE: Gollum/Sméagol Debate
on: April 14, 2003 08:37
Yes, cress. The scene with Smeagol murdering Deagol will probably be there, as non book readers wouldn't know why he was a murderer. Plus, it was in TTT visial companion so it's got to be in the EE.
OlorinTheWhite
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Post RE: Gollum/Sméagol Debate
on: April 14, 2003 09:53
I really don't find much need to post here, because I really agree with everything said here, but those scenes were made to be comic, so it shouldn't be looked down upon if people laugh because, as it's been said, they haven't read the books.

I agree with sepdet about how people usually don't enjoy coming to a movie to see very creepy and haunting psychological episodes, but I also hoped that Peter and the writers would make Gollum more pitiable, though I suppose that is coming...

[Edited on 4/14/2003 by OlorinTheWhite]
HO|3|3|7_F@NC|ER
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Post RE: Gollum/Sméagol Debate
on: April 17, 2003 06:44
well the first time i saw it was in wellington at the midnight screening (i went on this tour to nz to see the movie locations yada yada.. tis a long story.) and most people did laugh during that scene. well there were a LOT of people so i suppose it wasn't really surprising since it was kind of funny. but after i came home and saw it again, there was no response. not even in any of the other bits of the movie. probably cos the audience here are tolkien ignoramuses. pwff...stupid fat audience. don't appreciate it.
drunken_elf
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Post RE: Gollum/Sméagol Debate
on: April 22, 2003 01:05
I think the reason people laugh at Gollum is because everyone is so used to seeing digital characters like (to take Star Wars as an example) Yoda or Jar Jar Binks, who are meant to be comical or cute. A lot of people are not used to seeing a serious human digital character. It does annoy me when people continue to laugh through the whole scene, even in the parts that are definately not supposed to be comical. Oh well...
FallenAngel26
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Post RE: Gollum/Sméagol Debate
on: April 22, 2003 03:26
Well...think the people that laugh do not understand th emotional trauma that Gollum goes through. All 10 times I have seen it, people have laughed. Sometime it's the whole theater, sometimes it's just a few people here and there. At first, it didn't really bother me. Then, I started to understand this was a serious scene.

I have to admit, the first time I saw "The Gollum/Smeagol Debate" in TTT, I was laughing, thinking What on Middle Earth is this guy going on about? but after I understood that he was having a fight with his "other half," I began to realize that this is a sad scene, really, and should not be *laughed* at.

I even heard someone mention Gollum was there for "comic relief," and that is where I draw the line. Sure, that one part was a little funny for some people, but it is just not right to say the most distressd, tormented character in the movie (beside Frodo) is there for comic relief.

I agree with drunken_elf. I guess by nw it is human nature to laugh at the digitally mastered characters with crazy voices. But also, maybe the people in the audience were actually scared for him, and the laughter was their "whistle in the dark," and something that makes them feel more secure.
Eowyn_Touched-By-Frost
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Post RE: Gollum/Sméagol Debate
on: May 01, 2003 09:46
I really don't like people laughing at Gollum because, though the laughers probly don't notice, Frodo is becoming Gollum; which is a very serious thing, all of it is.

I've only seen TTT twice :cry:. The first, on New Years Eve (with a full theater) everyone laughed (except me ). The next time, on April 1, the guy a row over from me (who was rolling in the floor laughing) said to his wife "Honey, I know you took us here on April Fool's Day because you knew I'd get a kick outa' that!" Whatever.
He didn't stop laughing until m 85 year old Grandma hopped up and scolded him. Strange, but he seemed scared of her. Lol.
Lady~Eowyn
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Post RE: Gollum/Sméagol Debate
on: May 01, 2003 01:04
Well first of all I really enjoy seeing that part but it's a serious matter. It's nothing to laugh about, I mean gollum has been alive for what years? He hates himslef and loves himself just like he loves and hates the Ring. And he was tortured buy Sauron and his servants. All and all he suffered very muchl, and it's no laughing matter.

I think we're being de-sensitzed by all the violence we see.
Aniron_Valandil
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Post RE: Gollum/Sméagol Debate
on: May 01, 2003 03:21
parts of it made me laugh but mostly I just felt such deep sorrow and pity for this poor tortured creature. I found him very endearing in other parts, Like when Frodo first uses his name. Then to watch Frodo's own downward spiral....just so sad.
Veaglarwen
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Post RE: Gollum/Sméagol Debate
on: May 01, 2003 06:46
While I do agree that society is being de-sensatized (which i also happen to believe that de-sensatizing is a natural part of society, a cycle...) I also believe that in the beginning of the scene, it is really really unclear about what is going on...and to the audience, it's funny! I mean, Gollum is so treacherous, and Smeagol looks so cute with his bobbing head. If you'll really take the time out to listen to the audience laughter, you'll notice how the laughter changes..from a "This is so funny" to more of a nervous laughter. People tend to laugh at things when they are uncomforatable. Then, towards the end of the scene, no one is laughing anymore because they realized that Gollum is seriously having issues...and it becomes clear to them what is truly going on.
Figwit
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Post RE: Gollum/Sméagol Debate
on: May 01, 2003 11:08
If you'll really take the time out to listen to the audience laughter, you'll notice how the laughter changes..from a "This is so funny" to more of a nervous laughter.


not when I saw the movie: all four times people just laughed like it was a Gimli-being-tossed scene - and because they start laughing at the beginning of it, they don't get the rest of the scene (in Belgium we work with subtitles, and when you're laughing it's hard to read them - if you don't know English very well, you just simply can't follow the scene, and hence you can't understand anything that happens to Gollum/sméagol afterwards)
Faramirs_first_kiss
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Post RE: Gollum/Sméagol Debate
on: May 02, 2003 08:39
I think it's a real pity if people can't take Gollum seriously. He is an absolute film masterpiece if nothing else, but he is a tortured soul and he doesn't deserve the mockery. OK true he is pathetic and I admit to laughing in nervous sympathy at "I'm not listening" the first time I saw it, but I think the people who can laugh totally through that are the ones who don't care about the movie or the depth of the story at all. They're their to see gory special effects, or to drool over Orlando Bloom wishing he'd take that wig, or at least his top, off. They don't understand that Gollum shows the evil of the Ring, couldn't care less if that's what Frodo's threatened with. It's such a shame, because Gollum is fascinating and his character helps a lot in understanding exactly what Frodo is going through. People who miss this are missing out on a lot.
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Post RE: Gollum/Sméagol Debate
on: November 07, 2003 07:09
yes I did notice that the audience was laughing and they were also laughing when the ents were destroying Isenguard O_o espesially that part when the buring ent ran to the water which I thought that whole thing wsa unessassary although the ents were awsome and so was that scene
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Post RE: Gollum/Sméagol Debate
on: November 07, 2003 07:18
The first time I ever saw TTT, I thought that was the funniest thing I had ever seen! But the next time I went to see it, I couldn't figure out why it was so funny before. And ever since, it just hasn't been funny to me. Hmm... odd, eh?
Andowen
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Post RE: Gollum/Sméagol Debate
on: November 08, 2003 01:59
I think that it is humourous in a way, and in another way it is pitiful.
The way that the two halves of the persona argue in a childlike way is kind of funny. But I think it depends what mood you are in when you see it, I saw it in the cinema five times (pathetic by some standards it seems) and almost every time there was a different reaction.
The first time I was too awed to notice what everyone else was doing.
Second I did find it kind of funny.
Third time I thought about it a little more and decided that I felt really sorry for Smeagol.
Fourth time my English teacher was laughing every so often so I kind of got distracted and the fifth time I was busy counting how many times they said the word 'Ring' (17 by the way) so I don't really remember... am I really sad...
Eowyn13
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Post RE: Gollum/Sméagol Debate
on: November 08, 2003 12:00
I did not think it funny at all.
When I saw it, I actually cried. And I never cry at movies. It was not funny in any way, I don't see how ANYONE could laugh at such a time....
frodos_favorite_girl
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Post RE: Gollum/Sméagol Debate
on: November 09, 2003 11:48
Ya...I am insane and have seen the movie ten times....IN THE THEATRES!!!!!!!!!
As amusing as that seen was (i dont laugh at it but i do occasionally smile) i dont think that it should have been.
I mean this is a scene where Smeagol overcomes the evil inside of him (which i take to be Gollum)...it should not be funny!
I dont know wut PJs intent was for that scene...but if it was written to be funny then that isnt cool...it is supposed to be a serious scene and make ppl feel bad for Smeagol not make them laugh at him and his misfortune...in MY opinion when Smeagol overcomes Gollum it is a critical part in the story....to make it so funny...its just not right.
frodos_favorite_girl
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Post RE: Gollum/Sméagol Debate
on: November 09, 2003 12:03
Sorry To Write Another One but oh well.
I agree with all of u ppl who say that Frodo is becoming Gollum! Its just happening faster to Frodo becuz the enemy is awakened(so to speak) now and the ring has more power (also so to speak).
And Gollum is a brillant character....but he ought to be pitied not laughed at. And sometimes when i went (cuz member..i went 10 times) ppl just laughed and laughed at him...and sometimes they got into the whole nervous laughter thing. omg and this one time there was a total IDIOT sitting behind me and he was like to his friend "dude, are there two of them?" HONESTLY PPL!!!!

But really we cant blame ppl for laughing (okay we can but still) becuz obviously those ppl are not there for all of the subtleties in LotR or for appriciation of Tolkien's Works...they are just there to laugh at Gollum/Smeagol and watch Orlando Bloom and Viggo Mortensen run around. We must just allow those ppl to miss out on the point of it all and count it as their loss!
Lindir
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Post RE: Gollum/Sméagol Debate
on: November 10, 2003 03:57
I have to admit that it made me chuckle when it first started off - but as soon as Gollum got nasty, calling Smeagol a murderer and such, and Smeagol said 'Go away' in that really downcast, hurt tone I just went 'Aaawww' ... you can't laugh after the first part, it's just so sad and the pity that you feel is really powerful, I found. Still, didn't you smile when he started dancing around? Not be cause it was humerous, but because it was like his little triumph and he was so happy about it - like when a child gets a Maths problem solved after a lot of frustration and you just feel so pleased for them that you smile.


Lindir
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Post RE: Gollum/Sméagol Debate
on: February 04, 2005 11:35
I have to admit that I laughed when I first saw it, but once it got to the "I hate you" part, I shut up. And on "leave and never come back" I was watching to see what would happen.

So it was funny, but pitiable.
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Post RE: Gollum/Sméagol Debate
on: February 06, 2005 07:10
Ok, I have to admit that I giggled a BIT when I first saw it, but I was one of the few people in the theaters that hardly laughed at all. The poor guy; I felt bad for him the moment Sam tied him up with the elven rope. :cry: So yeah, I laughed for about the first few seconds and then stopped when "trauma kicked in". After that, I started smiling when he was presumably "free".
foolofatook~
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Post RE: Gollum/Sméagol Debate
on: February 06, 2005 07:18
Oh yeah, and nice work sepdet; beautifully written.
Sassyfriend
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Post Re: Gollum/Sméagol Debate
on: September 21, 2012 06:51
I must admit i laughed at the cute bits like when he dances for joy I wish he would've of stayed that way :..(
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