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Trignifty
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Post 1.VIII. Fog on the Barrow-downs
on: June 18, 2003 04:48
- How do you see Frodo exercising his ability to remain calm under stressful situations in this chapter?
- What ARE Barrow Wights? How do you picture them? Are they similar to the Nazgul? In what ways are they the same and in what ways do they differ?
- With the theme of symbolism, what key events or objects did you find in this chapter? Do you see any possible allusions with the Wights?
- Do you see any symbolism in the way Tom frees the hobbits?


[Edited on 28/1/2004 by Figwit]
Eowyn_Touched-By-Frost
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Post RE: 1.VIII. Fog on the Barrow-downs
on: June 18, 2003 05:38
Well, I pictured the Barrow Wights as looking a lot like more skeletal, gangly versions of the Nazgul. I think they are a type of ghosts, but that may be totaly wrong.
I think they are very simmilar to the Nazgul, in the fact that they are neither living nor dead. I also can connect them to something else, but it's WAAAAAAY in the future, so...
The ways they are different? Well, the Naz are more ruled by a power, and I think the Wights are, well, not.

Symbolism in Tom's freeing the Hobbits? Well, maybe showing that the Wights feed off/on sorrow and that they are hurt by joy. I just saw it as the usual with him, his song being the ,um, harness of his power.
Figwit
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Post RE: 1.VIII. Fog on the Barrow-downs
on: June 18, 2003 09:43
I always pictured the Barrow Wights to be kinda greenish and glowy (like a Twinkle Pinkle bug)... don't ask me why...

I think they're just remnants of Evil, not like the wraiths at all. The Nazgul are - to me at least - great voids, like black holes, that suck away light. Like I said, as if you'd cut a hole out of the background.

But the Barrow Wights are present, they're more like living, positive things. I think Tolkien just took something of the true English folk lore and used it in his epic (which was always meant to provide England with its very own mythology).

The English have a lot of tales and legends about the ghosts of the dead who have come back to haunt the living. The logic behind it is utterly christian: they were killed in a violent way (not taken by God) and were not avenged, and so their spirit cannot leave the earth. This in turn makes them violent, harmfull, angered - and they harm anyone who crosses their path, just like they themselves have been harmed.

I think Eowyn is right about Tom freeing the Hobbits with 'joy': since I think these ghosts are incarnated anger, I don't think Tom's omnipresent happiness would be very tempting to them

[oh and Eowyn... looking waaaaaaay into the future... I catch your drift ]
Trignifty
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Post RE: 1.VIII. Fog on the Barrow-downs
on: June 19, 2003 09:09
Oh and Eowyn... looking waaaaaaay into the future... I catch your drift --Figgy


Hmm...Trig is catching this drift as well....

That's what I've always felt about the Barrow wights as well, Figgy, that they are incarnated anger. Though with the symbolism, look at the fact that Tom tells the Hobbits to run around naked and he gives them swords. According to my English class last year...(which is somewhat cheating, I know...but deal with it. ) The fact that he tells the Hobbits to run around naked makes them like children, a symbol of purity. and, in a very 'before and after' effect, Tom gives them swords as well. Swords being a very common phallic symbol, they can represent the hobbits 'coming of age'. I don't really like the 'coming of age' definition, personally, at least how it relates to the Hobbits. I think it's more symbollic of a transition, of a change. This is their last encounter with the Old Forest and really their last encounter with anything even remotely familiar to them. Tom giving them the swords is almost saying 'Here, I'm preparing you for the next stage of your journey. You will not be helpless any more.' The Hobbits also receive protection of another kind...but that's for next week..
McDLT
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Post RE: 1.VIII. Fog on the Barrow-downs
on: June 23, 2003 04:52
I have always viewed Barrow-wights as green and ghost-like. I think they are only like the Nazgul/Black Riders in the fact that they are wraith-like in appearance and that evil controls them.

Just some thoughts.
Naurlas
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Post RE: 1.VIII. Fog on the Barrow-downs
on: June 24, 2003 10:39
There was a line in this chapter that always intrigued me ( maybe an allusion to someone else ?) It was after Tom rescued them and brought all the booty out of the barrow and laid it on the grass "He chose for himself from the pile a brooch set with blue stones, many-shaded like flax-flowers or the wings of blue butterflies. He looked long at it, as if stirred by some memory, shaking his head, and say at last: "Here is a pretty toy for Tom and for his lady! Fair was show who long ago wore this on her shoulder. Goldberry shall wear it now, and we will not forget her!" I have an idea but......it just brings up another example of the back history that Tolkien always tucked into the unlikely of places, giving such depth to the story. If this was the wrong place to put this...i'm sorry
It piqued my interest but it did kinda pertain to some symbolism and an inference to another time and place.

This was one of my favorite chapters, The Barrow-wights to me were more frightening that the Black-riders who had a specific agenda where as the wights are just "all-together evil"
LadyAdaneth
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Post RE: 1.VIII. Fog on the Barrow-downs
on: June 27, 2003 08:48
I agree with the last post about the scariness of the barrow-wights *shudders*. Interesting though, that the theme of supernatural inhabitant of burial site crops up in other early European legends that JRRT would have known well. For example, I recently read a splendid retelling of the Siegfried Rhinegold legends. Here I found the saga of one of the doomed hero clan hiding in a barrow from enemies, only to find it "occupied" by a nasty supernatural remnant of the dead character which fortunately he is able to make use of by acquiring its magic and wisdom. I think the FOTR barrow episode parallels this mythic theme in that the hobbits effectively emerge from the "trial" stronger and wiser than they went in!
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: 1.VIII. Fog on the Barrow-downs
on: June 29, 2003 07:33
I must admit that lately I've been thinking long and hard about barrows and barrow-wights.

I think that the wights themselves are some kind of creation by Melkor that that was attracted to places of the dead, escaped the destruction of Angband, and hid in the forests and hills looking for a suitable place to inhabit. They could have hidden themselves in the Old Forest for thousands of years and from there noticed when the dunedain stopped tending the burial mounds and then moved to them.
Alternatively they could have lived in the north, as did the dragons, and followed the troops of the Witch-King from Carn Dum from burial site to burial site, finally ending up in the Barrows after the Witch-King departed.
(Could the wights have been creatures designed by Melkor to inhabit gravesites and accumulate wealth for his future use?)

As to the Barrows themselves , I see them as a sort of kin to the passage graves found near Drogheda in Ireland (at Newgrange , Knowth and Dowth). The wights apparently lived in the barrows and I assume that they lived in passages constructed by the men that built the mounds.



The trip throughthe Barrows ultimately benefits the hobbits a great deal. Frodo has now saved the group from evil situations twice and clealy shows the sterner stuff that he is made of . He has been shown to be more resistant to Old Man Willow and the Barrow-Wiight a than the other hobbits and this could be indicative of him being a good choice as ring-bearer.
The Hobbits , thanks to the journey through the Barrows, are now dressed and armed properly for a journey through the wilds. This journey is far more dangerous than a jaunt from the Shire to Bree and thay are now far more ready than they were just a few days earlier.

(Of course - I'm far better at fact than analysis - especially with literature- so all of this could be way off base)
Master_Samwise_Gamgee
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Post RE: 1.VIII. Fog on the Barrow-downs
on: August 27, 2003 03:26
I have not read the Silmarillion, so that means I don't know anything about the background. But my opinion is that the barrowwrights are the spirits of the dead people burried in the Barrow-Downs. They attack the group of travelers, because they are disgracing there burialplace, at least thats what the whights make of it. They appear shine trough but toughable at the same time. I don't think they are controlled by more evil than themselves. By my knowing they do not attempt to take the ring from Frodo, do they? So that would give the perfect proof that there is no Sauron behind the Barrow Wights...
Figwit
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Post RE: 1.VIII. Fog on the Barrow-downs
on: August 30, 2003 04:10
There was a line in this chapter that always intrigued me ( maybe an allusion to someone else ?) It was after Tom rescued them and brought all the booty out of the barrow and laid it on the grass "He chose for himself from the pile a brooch set with blue stones, many-shaded like flax-flowers or the wings of blue butterflies. He looked long at it, as if stirred by some memory, shaking his head, and say at last: "Here is a pretty toy for Tom and for his lady! Fair was show who long ago wore this on her shoulder. Goldberry shall wear it now, and we will not forget her!" I have an idea but......it just brings up another example of the back history that Tolkien always tucked into the unlikely of places, giving such depth to the story. If this was the wrong place to put this...i'm sorry


well, Naurlas, I've been pondering this for a while now and all I can think of is that maybe it's Lúthien's? I remember having an idea about this months ago, but I just don't know who I thought it belonged to - I get my brilliant ideas when I sleep, and then I wake up and... well, forget to write them down
I'd like to hear your take on it though
Nanelleth
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Post RE: 1.VIII. Fog on the Barrow-downs
on: August 31, 2003 10:00
I am really enjoying following the discussion about the brooch that Tom chose for Goldberry. I get the feeling that there is definitely a story there, but it may be one that JRRT never wrote down for the benefit of the rest of us

I have a rather far-fetched theory about the barrow-wights that I will throw out for everyone to comment on. It is said that the barrows were inhabited by evil barrow-wights from Angmar after the wars between the Dunedain and Angmar. The lord of the nazgul is also known as the Witch King of Angmar. Could the lord of the Nazgul have somehow created these evil spirits, or at least sent them to inhabit the barrows that the Dunedain revered as a form of revenge against the Dunedain for robbing his master of the One Ring?
Naurlas
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Post RE: 1.VIII. Fog on the Barrow-downs
on: August 31, 2003 10:40
First of all...congrats to Figgy, for stepping up and taking on the job of Mod of our bookclub!! Wooohoo!

Interesting theory Nanelleth...hmmm, got me thinking. For now, I'll just say I always thought the brooch was for Nimrodel. I will expound on this theory next week......
Figwit
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Post RE: 1.VIII. Fog on the Barrow-downs
on: August 31, 2003 10:08
thanks Naurlas

Nanelleth, that's a very interesting idea! it never even crossed my mind, but now that I think about it, it seems very plausible
Naurlas
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Post RE: 1.VIII. Fog on the Barrow-downs
on: September 02, 2003 12:40
It's been awhile since I posted that thought about the brooch and who it could have belonged to. I did a bit of research on the map today,and no longer think Nimrodel could have been the owner. She was headed to Dol Amroth to meet up with her lover. Dol Amroth is down south on the Bay of Belfalas and the Barrows-downs are nearer the Shire towards the west. I agree with you Figgy that it was more than likely Luthien's or maybe her Momma's Melian. I probably associated Nimrodel with Gold-berry both being attached to the waters of ME.

Nanelleth, the more i think about your theory and traced the path on the map, it seems to be a good call that the Witch of Angmar used those as revenge.
Legolin
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Post RE: 1.VIII. Fog on the Barrow-downs
on: September 03, 2003 03:46
It is my opinion, supported by the text, that the Barrows themselves are not evil. They were, in fact, the places of burial for the Dunedain who fought against the Witch King around the time of the fall of Fornost.

So the barrows are not evil, but the wights are. They were servants of the Witch King who inhabited the barrows of their enemies, the Dunedain.

It is my further belife that the wights were not controlled by any outside evil ie. Sauron or even the Witch King anymore, they were simply evil for evils sake.

Perhaps I always look on the sad side, but I always feel bad when reading this chapter. Imgaine the glory of Numenor, the Dunedain of the north, once the greatest men in Middle Earth, who can now find no eternal peace, but are disturbed ever by the spirits of the wights.
rhia
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Post RE: 1.VIII. Fog on the Barrow-downs
on: September 03, 2003 02:52
I think that the Barrow Wights symbolize how people trap themselves and how the past can come back and effect the people of the future. I think these themes are also represented in the Ring. The Wights in a way could also represent the Ring. They came back to the graves of others and corrupted them. In a way I think of them as wraiths but to me wraiths are more alive. The Barrow Wights are tied down to their graves and are unable to do anything of use to a greater master. Ring Wraiths can only work for a greater master. For me Tom Bombadil has always symbolized nature. The fact that he was able to free the hobbits from the Barrow Wights symbolizes that nature can defeat the faults of people.
Eärnil_Captain_Of_Gondor
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Post RE: 1.VIII. Fog on the Barrow-downs
on: January 05, 2004 07:42
Tolkien wrote somewhere that the mound where Frodo was , was the mound of the Prince of Cardolan , and after the Lord of Angmar had sent creatures from the north to live in these hills , the mounds were cursed .

[Edited on 04/07/1988 by Eärnil_Captain_Of_Gondor]
Limiel
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Post RE: 1.VIII. Fog on the Barrow-downs
on: January 24, 2004 07:40
i think all the theoryies put forward are pretty cool. but think about this:
Luthien left the world before the end of the first age... and she lived in beleriand, which is west of ered luin and the grey havens, and it is never reported that she travelled east of them... it could have been melian's, but it doesnt seem that likely, i think it would be more like a great lady of arnor who befriended bombadil, as also she was buried east of ered luin, and was obviously human, so that seems most likely...
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