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falather
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Post Translation attempt... "Where now the horse and the rider?"
on: August 03, 2003 04:46
Aiya!
This is from the Two Towers (Book 3), and I thought I'd try to translate it. Please let me know what you think!

1. Manómë sí i rocco ar i roquen? Manómë ná i rombë i yellane?Where now the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing?

2. Manómë ná i cassa ar i rauta-rembë, ar i calima findessë úlea?Where is the helm and the hauberk, and the bright hair flowing?

3. Manómë ná i má nande-liassë, ar i carnë nárë fainala?
Where is the hand on the harpstring, and the red fire glowing?

4. Manómë ná i tuilë ar i yávië, ar i halla salquë tuinala?Where is the spring and the harvest, and the tall corn growing?

5. Avániente ve mistë i orontenna, ve súrë i ambanessë,They have passed like rain on the mountain, like a wind in the meadow,

6. I auri unútier i Númesse i ambor pella huinenna;
The days have gone down in the West behind the hills into shadow;

7. Man hostuva i yúla i firin taureo ustala,
Who shall gather the smoke of the dead wood burning,

8.Var cenë i úlëa loar i Ëarello pelala?Or behold the flowing years from the Sea returning?

1. I've used for "where" throught this translation. It's made from ma(interrogative particle)+ nómë(place). (this one may be a bit of a stretch ) from
yello (a call) I got yella (to call) and then yellië (the gerund).
2. is used for "hauberk." It's metal+mesh (I was thinking chain mail?).
3. for harp string...lia being "thread."
4. I used for corn...it means grass, but it was the closest thing I could find to corn. is literally sprouting.
5. I used "over the mountain" here.
6. is from núta (to sink) and is used for gone down.

I'm not totally sure how to make the accent marks online- I've been using the cut-and-paste method so far to transfer the marks I need from Microsoft Word. I hope you can read it all right! Hanteanyë le!


Thank you so much for your help! I really appreciate it, and am thrilled to have found such a wonderful place to discuss Quenya! Thanks again!


[Edited on 5/8/2003 by falather]

[Edited on 30/4/2005 by Malinornë]
Corintur_Linyacelu
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Post RE: Translation attempt... "Where now the horse and the rider?"
on: August 04, 2003 12:14
Welcome!
I am really glad that there are more and more people who are interested in Quenya and come and seek for council here
And thus I hope you will stay a bit and not abandon us as soon as your translation is commented

Okay, here are some comments of mine:

1. Manómë sí i rocco ar i roquen? Manómë ná i rombë sa né yellië?Where is the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing?

We just recently had this discussion about how to render "where". I personally like the idea of adding the locative ending -sse to the interrogative particle "ma" (as we have the attested example of "manen"[how] with "ma"+nen[instrumental ending]) - others thought that a compound of "ma" and "nóme" (hence "what-place") - the option you chose - would be better. In fact it would be your choice which one you would prefer - I'd take "masse"
And your "sí" does somehow not fit in here... "sí" means "now" and this wouldn't make any sense here. I think you mean "ná" (is). Or you used your "right" to let out the copula(?).
"sa" is, I think, not used as a relative pronoun but as conjuction - and its attestation is somehow curious. So I would advise you to use either "i" or "ya" which are the attested examples we have and seem to be interchangeable.
"né yellie" looks a bit strange - and the gerund makes the verb a noun (AFAIK), thus it wouldn't fit at all - it seems you have to simplify here and just translate "the horn that blew" (i rombe i yellane).

2. Manómë ná i cassa ar i rauta-rembë, ar i calina findessë úlea?Where is the helm and the hauberk, and the bright hair flowing?

"rauta-rembe" is a good idea how to render "hauberk"!
"calina" is probably a spelling mistake - should be "calima".

3. Manómë ná i má nande liassë, ar i carnë nárë fainala?
Where is the hand on the harpstring, and the red fire glowing?

I'd propose that you create a compound out of "nande" and "lia" (nandelia or nande-lia) and not let them stand around there as two unconnected words


5. Me avánier ve mistë or i oron, ve súrë i ambanessë,They have passed like rain on the mountain, like a wind in the meadow,

"me" means "us" - so I don't really understand what it does here . "They have passed" would be translated by using the pronominal ending -nte ("they"), hence "avániente"
"rain on the mountain" I would render with using the [always forget the name - is it allative or ablative?]-case - the case meaning "upon" and "towards" and which is formed by adding -nna, whatever it may be called ^^. Hence "ve miste i orontenna".

6. I auri unútier i Númenissen pella i ambor mer huinë;
The days have gone down in the West behind the hills into shadow;

It would be "Númenesse" or, more probably "Númesse" - we only have one west here . "pella" is a subjugation(?) - like "ago" in English, following the noun, not preceding it.
For "into shadow" I would use again the case I don't remember the name with the ending -nna and the meaning of "upon, towards" (the latter being used here), hence "i ambor pella huinenna".

7. Man hostuva i yúlar i firin taurello ustala,
Who shall gather the smoke of the dead wood burning,

"smoke" doesn't have to be plural - I think "yúla" suffices .
For "of dead wood" I would have used Genitive as the wood is the origin of the smoke - but perhaps your [whatever be its name]-case could be probable, too, as the smoke is coming from the wood...

And it should be "pélala".
You have used the article "i" all the time - this is of course not wrong, but you are allowed to omitt it, if you want and think that it sounds better without.


I have somewhere seen the translation of this small poem before, perhaps I can find it and post it so that you can compare yours with the other . And don't be scared by the many comments - this does not mean that your translation is bad or something, it really is not and most of the mistakes you won't make again if you have translated more poems.
"Practice forms the master" we say in Germany, and I agree with this statement .
Malinornë
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Post RE: Translation attempt... "Where now the horse and the rider?"
on: August 04, 2003 04:28
Nice translation, falather!
Just some comments to Corintur´s comments

1. Manómë sí i rocco ar i roquen? Manómë ná i rombë sa né yellië?Where is the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing?

And your "sí" does somehow not fit in here... "sí" means "now" and this wouldn't make any sense here. I think you mean "ná" (is). Or you used your "right" to let out the copula(?).

If I remember this song correctly, the first line of the English original is actually "Where now the the horse and the rider", with "now" and without "is". So I´d just correct the English here.



5. Me avánier ve mistë or i oron, ve súrë i ambanessë,They have passed like rain on the mountain, like a wind in the meadow,

"rain on the mountain" I would render with using the [always forget the name - is it allative or ablative?]-case - the case meaning "upon" and "towards" and which is formed by adding -nna, whatever it may be called ^^. Hence "ve miste i orontenna".

This case is called allative

"pella" is a subjugation(?) - like "ago" in English, following the noun, not preceding it.

"pella" is a postposition, meldonya

7. Man hostuva i yúlar i firin taurello ustala,
Who shall gather the smoke of the dead wood burning,

"smoke" doesn't have to be plural - I think "yúla" suffices .
For "of dead wood" I would have used Genitive as the wood is the origin of the smoke - but perhaps your [whatever be its name]-case could be probable, too, as the smoke is coming from the wood...

The "whatever" case is ablative in this instance.
Corintur_Linyacelu
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Post RE: Translation attempt... "Where now the horse and the rider?"
on: August 04, 2003 04:44

This ablative/allative-stuff is always confusing me as I know "ablative" from Latin where it is something like the Locative in Quenya - but I will try to remember.

Ablative - "from", -llo
Allative - "upon, towards", -nna

A shame that it is not the other way round, the "ll" in Allative and the ending -llo would have been a nice way to remember the name (and the ending)
Malinornë
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Post RE: Translation attempt... "Where now the horse and the rider?"
on: August 04, 2003 08:52
Oh, it sounds confusing if ablative is used in that way in Latin. But perhaps it could help to think about the word itself, I think "ab" means "from", doesn´t it?
falather
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Post RE: Translation attempt... "Where now the horse and the rider?"
on: August 04, 2003 03:50
Thanks so much! I edited my post, and am going to go edit my Quenya notebook right now (Where's that White-out?). I am trying to learn the Tengwar and now that I've gotten help with the translation I am going to try and transcribe it. (I DO love this language! ) Thank you!
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