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Figwit
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Post Book Analysis: The Culture Of the Elves
on: September 13, 2003 08:54
Since we are getting deeper into the books, I thought it would be nice to start digging a bit deeper and look at the cultures Tolkien created. This thread is meant to discuss the culture of the Elves as they are presented by Tolkien in Lord Of the Rings.

Please don't read ahead and use information from chapters we haven't dealt with yet; or use information from books outside Lord of the Rings (Silmarillion, Hobbit, HOME,...).

The purpose of this thread is to gather as much information as we can about the Elves and their ways of life, and then digest an article from it for Elrond's Library... so it'd be great if you'd all participate!
atalante_star
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Post RE: Book Analysis: The Culture Of the Elves
on: September 21, 2003 08:14
I'm already writing (and almost finished) an article on Elvish architecture and Elvish cities .... so I can give you all that when it's finished
rhia
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Post RE: Book Analysis: The Culture Of the Elves
on: September 29, 2003 03:24
I really want to post on this thread but I think it's better if I don't talk about elves. I don't remember what I thought of them this far into the book and I have studied them for so long and learned so much about them that an answer wouldn't be accurate. Sorry!
Figwit
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Post RE: Book Analysis: The Culture Of the Elves
on: September 29, 2003 11:28
well, as long as you don't run ahead you can post whatever you like - we don't need to be nitpicky here
Laswen
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Post RE: Book Analysis: The Culture Of the Elves
on: October 23, 2003 07:40
I'd be glad to contribute the article on elvish weaponry and fighting techniques if you want it...It might be a little off the subject, though...
Figwit
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Post RE: Book Analysis: The Culture Of the Elves
on: October 24, 2003 07:08
I'd be glad to contribute the article on elvish weaponry and fighting techniques if you want it...It might be a little off the subject, though...


maybe it's more something for the Weaponry Section - but thanks for the offer!
Anteruion
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Post RE: Book Analysis: The Culture Of the Elves
on: October 29, 2003 12:38
ok i know that it says well befor the chapter yall are on that Elrond is a Half elf but Half what?.
atalante_star
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Post RE: Book Analysis: The Culture Of the Elves
on: October 29, 2003 10:56
Well, he's a bit of a mix really!

his mother, Elwing, is 1/8 Maiar (assuming that Melian's maiar-ism gets passed down in some way).

his father, Earendil, was a Man

so really, he and Elros are 1/2 man, 3/8 elf and 1/8 maiar derivative
Figwit
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Post RE: Book Analysis: The Culture Of the Elves
on: October 29, 2003 11:50
Lol atalante! If that's so, then why do they call him Half-elven?
atalante_star
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Post RE: Book Analysis: The Culture Of the Elves
on: October 30, 2003 01:23
well which is more catchy, "Elrond the half elven", or "Elrond the half man, three-eighths elf and one-eighths maiar" ? and can you imagine how to say that in elvish!!!

But seriously, really, I suppose, he should be known as Elrond the half man, but that would be below the elves, I'm sure

Figwit
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Post RE: Book Analysis: The Culture Of the Elves
on: October 30, 2003 01:57
yeah, Half-elven does sound more impressive - Half-man sort of sounds like a minotaur or a sater
Anteruion
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Post RE: Book Analysis: The Culture Of the Elves
on: November 04, 2003 04:18
Wow i didn't know my question was that improtant

but i have another. Elves it SEEMS of any part(half quarter ext)
have the chose of the live of the elves is that true the reason i think that is the fact of Elrond.?
atalante_star
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Post RE: Book Analysis: The Culture Of the Elves
on: November 05, 2003 01:14
Elves it SEEMS of any part(half quarter ext)
have the chose of the live of the elves is that true the reason i think that is the fact of Elrond.?


The choice between mortality and an elven life seemingly started with Elwing (almost all Elf) and Eärendil (Man). They had two children - Elrond and Elros.

Both the sons got the choice whether they would be mortal or elves. Elros chose mortal, and choice of mortality was passed down to his descendants as well. Elrond chose elf, and his children - Arwen, Elladan and Elrohir inherited the right to choose.

However, I don't think it's that easy. I think the choice for mortality started with Melian, and I suspect it was to do with diluting her "Maiar-ness". Just an idea. The other elf / man union also occurred in her line - Lúthien (her daughter) and Beren.

After Beren died, Lúthien travelled to the Halls of Mandos to get him back (she could do this because of her mother's Maiar nature). They then chose to live out peaceful mortal lives in Middle-earth.
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: Book Analysis: The Culture Of the Elves
on: November 05, 2003 08:58
As far as I know, the choice of mortality or immortality was only given to Eärendil and Elwing, their sons, and Elrond's children. Every other person with even a drop of human blood was automatically mortal. If I recall correctly, Tolkien explained this in one of his letters (which I unfortunately don't have - I got this info from another website where someone cited that letter). I try to dig up the reference if needed.

And, it is told in Unfinished Tales that Imrazôr the Númenórean, ancestor to Prince Imrahil who comes up later in the story, married an elf named Mithrellas from Lothlórien; their son became the first Lord of Dol Amroth.

(And, the topic is really hard to discuss without giving out possible spoilers or referring to Tolkien's other works in some aspects.)

[Edited on 5/11/2003 by Morwinyoniel]
Nienna-of-the-Valar
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Post RE: Book Analysis: The Culture Of the Elves
on: November 05, 2003 11:50
(And, the topic is really hard to discuss without giving out possible spoilers or referring to Tolkien's other works in some aspects.)

Thankfully for us, this is the Book Forum, so we don't worry about spoilers here
As far as I know, the choice of mortality or immortality was only given to Eärendil and Elwing, their sons, and Elrond's children

That is absolutely true. In Eärendil were combined all three of the Houses of the Edain and a part of the blood of the Eldar. His fate, and the fates of his descendants, are entirely different from any other in ME due in part to his descent and moreso to his sail to Valinor.
Every other person with even a drop of human blood was automatically mortal. If I recall correctly, Tolkien explained this in one of his letters (which I unfortunately don't have - I got this info from another website where someone cited that letter). I try to dig up the reference if needed.

Hate to be a pain, but I would like to see that reference. This brings to mind my ever-unanswered questions about Díor. He was descended from Beren and Luthien and yet seemed to be an Elf (though I think he should have been a Man). Maybe this was an oversight made by Tolkien??


Figwit
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Post RE: Book Analysis: The Culture Of the Elves
on: November 06, 2003 12:06
(And, the topic is really hard to discuss without giving out possible spoilers or referring to Tolkien's other works in some aspects.)

Thankfully for us, this is the Book Forum, so we don't worry about spoilers here


Well, Nienna, that's not completely true But well, since it seems that in this particular thread it will indeed be impossible to avoid references to other works, I'll just let it slide this time.

Besides, this is all way too interesting
Nienna-of-the-Valar
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Post RE: Book Analysis: The Culture Of the Elves
on: November 06, 2003 12:42
Well, Nienna, that's not completely true

omg, I completely forgot that I was posting in the Book Club and not the regular Book Forum. Duh!! My apologies. My brain is really fried right now so don't mind me :dizzy:
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: Book Analysis: The Culture Of the Elves
on: November 06, 2003 07:17
Well, I know a few people who have discovered the books only after the movies were made, and some of them don't want to spoil the ROTK movie by reading the book first... *sic*

But, at least something about Rivendell and Lothlórien can be written based only on what is told in the Fellowship of the Ring. I hope I can find some time for it myself.

[Edited on 6/11/2003 by Morwinyoniel]
RiverWoman
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Post RE: Book Analysis: The Culture Of the Elves
on: November 07, 2003 04:11
From just FOTR, in addition to Rivendell and Lorien we have met the elves in the woods, and heard something about the elves in Hollin. Can we assume knowledge of the Hobbit? Then we can contrast the way the elves of Mirkwood reacted when Bilbo and the dwarves came upon their feast, and the welcome Gildor (I think that's the right name- no book with me now) gave to the Hobbits. They showed great hospitality, but were also very reluctant to give any advice or share their knowledge. There is a tension between a natural kindness and a desire to be withdrawn from the affairs of mortals.

The elves of Hollin had apparently been "different" in that the trees didn't remember them, but the stones still grieved for their passing. I've always loved that passage, where Legolas is able to sense that loss.

These are fairly random thought- I'm supposed to be working!
Figwit
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Post RE: Book Analysis: The Culture Of the Elves
on: November 09, 2003 12:03
There is a tension between a natural kindness and a desire to be withdrawn from the affairs of mortals.


That's something I always found very strange, RiverWoman. I wonder why a people who are so very wise are also very withdrawn. Or maybe it's because they are wise?
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: Book Analysis: The Culture Of the Elves
on: November 09, 2003 01:43
Every other person with even a drop of human blood was automatically mortal. If I recall correctly, Tolkien explained this in one of his letters (which I unfortunately don't have - I got this info from another website where someone cited that letter). I try to dig up the reference if needed.

Hate to be a pain, but I would like to see that reference. This brings to mind my ever-unanswered questions about Díor. He was descended from Beren and Luthien and yet seemed to be an Elf (though I think he should have been a Man). Maybe this was an oversight made by Tolkien??


Here's the reference - I just remembered the source wrong, it is in "The Lost Road" in HoME V:
Then Manwë gave judgement and he said: 'To Eärendil I shall remit the ban, and the peril that he took upon himself out of love for the Two Kindreds shall not fall on him; neither shall it fall upon Elwing who entered into peril for love of Eärendil: save only in this: they shall not walk ever again among Elves or Men in the Outer Lands. Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me. This is my decree: to Earendil and to Elwing and to their sons shall be given leave each to choose freely under which kindred they shall be judged.

CJRT notes "It is to be observed that according to the judgement of Manwë Dior Thingol's heir, son of Beren, was mortal irrespective of the choice of his mother."

Now, let's get back on topic.

[Edited on 9/11/2003 by Morwinyoniel]
Nienna-of-the-Valar
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Post RE: Book Analysis: The Culture Of the Elves
on: November 09, 2003 08:15
((This is off-topic, I know, but worth saying))
Here's the reference - I just remembered the source wrong, it is in "The Lost Road" in HoME V:

Well I know that there may be those who do not agree with me, but I would not consider that quote to be from canon. Most of the HoME series is just what it says it is "the evolution of one of the world's most enduring fantasies". These stories went through so many changes, and were continuing to before Tolkien's death, that even The Silmarillion could be considered questionable. Most people though will accept that and the trilogy and the Hobbit as canon...anything else can be subjective.
CJRT notes "It is to be observed that according to the judgement of Manwë Dior Thingol's heir, son of Beren, was mortal irrespective of the choice of his mother."

This could also be a changing theory, something Christopher mixed up, or it could be true. I think that Díor should be mortal, but if he is then he should be counted amongst the Mortal-Immortal unions and he is not so I still don't understand it. Again, not from a source that I consider canon for such revelations. Thanks for taking the time to look it up though! Always good to see that


RiverWoman
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Post RE: Book Analysis: The Culture Of the Elves
on: November 10, 2003 03:16
I think one reason elves avoid getting too involved with mortals on a regular basis is that we live such a short time compared to them. ou would just be getting to know someone,and they would grow old and die. After 1,000 years, you would get tired of it and give up.
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Post RE: Book Analysis: The Culture Of the Elves
on: November 14, 2003 12:42
Wisdom can also be a very dangerous thing in the hands someone unprepared or unwilling to use it correctly. Few mortals, especially Mankind, would use that knowledge wisely. They would be more inclined to use it in a corrupt manner for personal gain with little thought given to the consequences.
I imagine the emotional attachment issue would also be part of it as has already been stated, plus immortal beings would view mortals almost as 'children' in a way, children who need to learn for themselves.
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