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Telcontar
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Post Plural Case Ending Formations
on: September 30, 2003 07:25
OK, skimming the Ardalambion lessons to review, I realized that some cases such as the genitive have a plural ending on the base word AS WELL AS the plural case ending (Ciryaron). However, other cases such as the allative simply have the plural case ending (Ciryannar). Can anyone explain why these peculiarities exist and how I can figure out which of these "rules" apply to which case?
janet
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Post RE: Plural Case Ending Formations
on: October 02, 2003 05:33
I do not really understand what you mean (for my English is not that well), but I'll give it a try.
First your question: what you are saying is that the word for the ownership (or belonging) of one ship (minë ciryaron) is the same as of (for example) three ships (neldë ciryaron)? For example?

I quickly read the lesson, but as far as I understood, the singular form of the genitive would be minë ciryo en the plural form would be neldë ciryaron. Note that the singular form looses the last 'a', which is replaced by 'o' and the plural form has both the 'r' (from ciryar and '-on'. The dual form should be ciryaton, I suppose, for ciryat is dual and '-o' for the belonging or ownership. Just 'o', for a dual form can be translated as 'a (one) pair of ...'

That should be an answer to your question if I interpreted it correctly.
Telcontar
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Post RE: Plural Case Ending Formations
on: October 02, 2003 09:38
No, what I was saying is something like this. If you have the word ships (ciryar) and you wish to render it "of ships", it would be "ciryaron". This form contains both the pluralizing "r" on the simple plural form AS WELL AS the plural case ending "on".

However if you have the word "ships" (ciryar) and you wish to render it "towards/against ships" it would be "ciryannar" wherein it has lost the original simple plural ending "r" and only contains the "nnar". Now I know you could argue that it was because of the "r" on the end of "nnar", but in the locative case it has a "ssen" plural ending, and it wouldl be spelt "ciryassen" (in/on/upon ships) without the plural "r" on the simple plural.
janet
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Post RE: Plural Case Ending Formations
on: October 02, 2003 12:41
Oh, like that.
If you would compose the word ciryarnnar, it has a combination of three consonants. This would be an 'impossible' consonant cluster, as it is said in the Ardalambion course:
Adding the allative and ablative endings to nouns ending in a consonant: Suffixes like -nna and -llo and their dual/plural variants can never be added directly to a noun ending in a consonant without creating impossible consonant clusters.

I suppose Tolkien (or somebody else) decided that in case the word ends on 'R' in plural, it would be ok to remove the plural 'R' of ciryar and replace it by '-annar'. I even think, if someone else has decided this, it is on a level 'ordinary' students (like me) wouldn't even want to know. The course says the following about it:
ciryannar "to ships" (e.g. lelyuvan i ciryannar "I'll go to the ships"). The final -r here appearing seems to be the same plural element that we are familiar with from nominative forms like Eldar, ciryar.

Even lassë with its plural form lassi is stated as lassennar and not lassinar.
However, the writer of the Ardalambion-site refers often to a document called The Plotz-Letter, a document that Tolkien to a person named D. Plotz wrote and seems to be a great source of information. That implies that the only person who knows the answer to the 'why'-question, is mr. Tolkien himself.
Malinornë
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Post RE: Plural Case Ending Formations
on: October 02, 2003 07:57
Telcontar, I understand your question and it's a very good one, but unfortunately I have no idea *why* it is like this, so I think that as students we just have to memorize which plural endings are "double" and which aren't.

Maybe it's just phonology..."**ciryaon" wouldn't be possible, and perhaps "**ciryon" didn't sound as nice to Tolkien as "ciryaron" did, though it would have been more "regular", as final "a" is displaced by "o" in singular.

[Edited on 3/10/2003 by Malinornë]
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