Welcome Guest 

Register

Forum Home » Books Discussion » Discuss the Books » How LotR Shaped the Fantasy Genre
Author Topic:
landscribe
Council Member
Posts: 45
Send Message
Avatar
Post How LotR Shaped the Fantasy Genre
on: October 22, 2003 07:39
I recently read this article from the Listener.

Excerpt:
Tolkien imitation: it has been an industry for three decades. For many people, fantasy now means Tolkien and Tolkien clones. (And, yes, that kid with the scar on his forehead.)

The Tolkien wannabes are harmless enough. They can even be fun, the same way a George Lucas film can be fun. But their relationship to real fantasy is pretty much the same as Lucas's to Fellini. Ursula Le Guin puts it like this: "Mindless fantasy novels that manipulate trite symbols in formulaic 'battles of Good and Evil' are certainly negligible; but the existence of muzak does not disprove the existence of music".


I haven't read any fantasy written in the pre-Tolkien era (written before 1955), but as a result of reading this article, am going to make an attempt to do so (I just today picked up Dunsany's The King of Elfland's Daughter).

Indeed I would agree that a whole lot of fantasy out there is, if not a clone of Tolkien, then certainly heavily influenced by his ideas. In almost the same way that a lot of fantasy authors pull strongly from traditional myths and legends. I have certainly read my fair share of "dark lord" "trilogy" series'.

What do other people have to say about this? What was the fantasy genre like pre-Tolkien? And are today's fantasy stories Tolkien clones, a formulaic mish-mash lacking terribly orignal thoughts, or are they individual literary works in their own right?
Rivka
Frodo Fanatic and Head Oligarch
Posts: 3760
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: How LotR Shaped the Fantasy Genre
on: October 22, 2003 08:38
I haven't read that much stuff that was pre-Tolkien. George MacDonald comes to mind, and you could probably lump C.S. Lewis in the pre-crowd, because his stuff was written at about the same time, and wasn't influenced in the same manner as later authors.

I do have to agree on the Tolkien clones idea -- I can think of two series right off the bat that have always bothered me in that aspect: the Shannara series is painfully obvious. I tried re-reading this again recently and it just had so many similar characters, themes, ideas, etc. And one of my favorite characters is that of Drizzt Do'Urden, but the first series he was in called the IceWind Dale Trilogy just had too much in common with Tolkien (the later books get away from that). There are a lot of fantasy books from the 70's and 80's that just have that very similar feel: a group of halflings, elves, dwarves, and men journey off together on a great quest where they encounter trolls, orcs, and other things that look and sound Tolkienish (even though they have different names). If you start off with that basic kind of idea, it's pretty hard for it not to feel like it's based on Tolkien, no matter how much you try to dress it up differently. You can say that they're basing it on traditional myths, but really...I think they're basing it on what is accepted fantasy lore, that was created by Tolkien. It gets old after a while.

I do think the '90s and the present has started seeing some original stuff...women started coming in and writing, and we're starting to see some truly strong female characters, although they tend to tip towards Mary Sueism more than I would like sometimes. One of my all time favorite series (the Song of Ice and Fire series by George R. R. Martin) actually has hardly any aspects of high fantasy -- no elves, dwarves, or other fantastical creatures other than some dragons, but it's probably the best written modern fantasy series I've read. The fantasy books I like the best are the ones that veer away from the standard quest idea with the recognized races, but ones that create their own new mythology and ideas. They're rare and hard to find, but they're worth it when you do find one that's well written!
"We have done the impossible, and that makes us mighty."
juhsstin
Council Member
Posts: 5
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: How LotR Shaped the Fantasy Genre
on: October 23, 2003 09:19
i have a question:

did tolkien invent such races as elves, orcs, etc? or has this "strain" of fantasy (a la dungeons and dragons) been around before him?
atalante_star
Scholar of Imladris and Theodens Lady
Posts: 1365
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: How LotR Shaped the Fantasy Genre
on: October 23, 2003 09:29
Tolkien certainly didn't "invent" elves and orcs. But was he the first person to use them in a high fantasy way? He might have been, but I really don't know ....

Earlier elves and orcs were generally known as goblins and pixies, and they had various parts in nursery rhymes and various other "cute" things.

Hobbits ... well, those he did invent - though actually an author used the word hobbit about 10 years before Tolkien - but only once ... and Tolkien didn't know about it until long after his works were published.

I know that doesn't answer your question fully, but that's all I can tell you without looking stuff up - which I'll do later if no-one else answers this properly
juhsstin
Council Member
Posts: 5
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: How LotR Shaped the Fantasy Genre
on: October 23, 2003 10:24
that's fine, you pretty much answered my question for me at least. i start wondering exactly how elves (pixies) and orcs (goblins) were invented in the first place. what they signify, and why writers or people in general felt a need to create such archetypes. are pixies immortal and is that their "main reason for existing" or is that their function in our fantasies? it certainly seems to be so for Tolkien at least.
atalante_star
Scholar of Imladris and Theodens Lady
Posts: 1365
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: How LotR Shaped the Fantasy Genre
on: October 23, 2003 12:15
ooh, goodness, you'd really have to look into the origins of folk-lore to find out who started talking about pixies / fairies / goblins / other things like that. I guess a lot of cultures came up with the pixie / fairy notion independently from each other.....
landscribe
Council Member
Posts: 45
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: How LotR Shaped the Fantasy Genre
on: October 23, 2003 02:29
Tolkien certainly didn't "invent" elves and orcs. But was he the first person to use them in a high fantasy way? He might have been, but I really don't know ....


I thought the term and character of "Orc" was a Tolkien creation - especially since he uses them distinctly differently from goblins and trolls which he also uses in his stories.

Tolkien's use of elves to me seems more of a progression from the myth of faerie rather than pixies - but in most cases these terms are pretty much interchangeable, and I may just be being pedantic
PotbellyHairyfoot
Grandpa Moderator
Posts: 2929
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: How LotR Shaped the Fantasy Genre
on: October 23, 2003 08:13
Some great, Pre-Tolkien Fantasy Authors you may want to look up iare Lord Dunsany whose work is considered very influential., H. Rider Hagard author of King Soloman's Mine and She and many other stories, Edgar Rice Burroughs ( he wrote much more than just the Tarzan series- try his Barsoom books ), and maybe even H.P. Lovecraft although his fantasy tended to be horror fantasy. These authors all had a great influence on the works of later writers.
There's also the works of Lewis Caroll and L. Frank Baum and his "Oz " series of novels to consider as pre LOTR fantasy. There are many other great fantasy authors from before LOTR was published but these are some of the ones I'm more familiar with or have read.


Depending on how you define fantasy , the early Legends of the Gods and heroes of Greece, Rome, The Norsemen, and native Americans could also be considered fantasy stories. Even the stories by the Brothers Grimm could be considered fantasy . For an Idea just what a wide range of books are considered as part of the fantasy genre here is a list of the results of a poll on the greatest SF and fantasy ever written.


I am not sure about Tolkien really changing fantasy. He was a great influence and others have copied his themes and style . Tolkien probably did more background work on his world than any other author [His detailed timeline covers a period of more than 7000 years], but many modern authors are still successful with fantasy that doesn't seem to show any kinship with LOTR. A couple of examples are the "Pern" series by Anne Mcaffrey, and the Dray Prescott novels of Alan Burt Akers which seem to me to be more closely related to Burrough's Barsoom series than to LOTR. The curently wery popular HP books by Rowling also sem to have no relationship with the Middle-Earth books.


I didn't mean to write an essay here and I'm certainly no lterary expert but I think that all that I am trying to say is that although Tolkien may have written the greatest Fantasy novels of all time, the fantasy genre, except for his imitators, still marches on as it always has.
rhia
Council Member
Posts: 241
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: How LotR Shaped the Fantasy Genre
on: October 25, 2003 09:46
I've read some classic Pre-Tolkein fantasy like The Wizard of Oz, Peter Pan that kind of thing. It's true that Tolkein heavily and obviously influences much of today's fantasy from Star Wars to Harry Potter. Soon after I began to realize the conextions between Tolkein's works and so many other's I was severely bothered by it. It seemed to me that I couldn't fin any truly original fantasy books. And then it occured to me that Tolkein isn't as original as we make him out to be. I mean think about all the myths and stories that are obvious in his works. Does this make him anything less than a genius? No. The more I think about it the more I realize that nothing is totally unique and original. We have a huge coultural backround and it is only natural that authors should build off of what was written before them.
Celebrian
Council Member
Posts: 420
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: How LotR Shaped the Fantasy Genre
on: May 27, 2006 01:25
I think this is a topic worth revisiting. The word fantasy, used as a classification, has come under great debate. Some writers get really angry when their works is labeled fantasy, preferring the term Science Fiction. Definitions have been thrown around but I think the line between them gets thin sometimes. Personally, I think a lot of what is called Science Fiction these days is actually more in the realm of fantasy and I don't understand why the authors resent being included in a group that includes Tolkien.

I can't think of one other writer in any genre that has been as influential over as long a period as Tolkien. I don't like the works that are obvious rip-offs much but I think some of the works he has inspired are more a compliment than an insult. The Professor has influenced millions as far as the way they look at life and living and I think his influence has been, at least for the most part, a very good one.
pv
Council Member
Posts: 523
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: How LotR Shaped the Fantasy Genre
on: May 27, 2006 06:49
I don't like the works that are obvious rip-offs much but I think some of the works he has inspired are more a compliment than an insult.


In his book, "On Writing," Stephen King writes that there are are only a few authors, (the particularly talented ones,) who have the ability to literally absorb their readers into their work, so much so that readers long to revisit the world of the book again and again. King cites Tolkien as an example, and says that many Tolkien "rip-offs" arise out of Tolkien fans' fascination for Middle Earth, a fascination so strong that they create works of literature that allow them to continue living in Tolkien's world. As you said, Celebrian, this is a compliment to Tolkien, and the power of his writing.

[Edited on 28/5/2006 by pv]
http://monstersandcritics.wordpress.com/
Strider_is_the_cats_MEOW
Council Member
Posts: 14
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: How LotR Shaped the Fantasy Genre
on: May 28, 2006 06:20
I thought the term and character of "Orc" was a Tolkien creation

"Orc" actually came from Beowulf, meaning demon. I think, as for shaping the fantasy genre, Tolkien did something more along the lines of 'reawakening' it. It had gone into an eclipse of sorts and he was able to bring it back out into the open. Tolkien's views of elves are extremely different from most fantasy writers' "pixies" and "sprites" which are characterized by their small size and capricious nature. They are (as far as I know) extremely original in that sense.
cirdaneth
Books Admin & Books Forum Moderator
Posts: 2069
Send Message
Avatar
Post Re: How LotR Shaped the Fantasy Genre
on: June 11, 2012 08:40
*bump
Erucenindë
Head Of Oromë
Posts: 3311
Send Message
Avatar
Post Re: How LotR Shaped the Fantasy Genre
on: June 11, 2012 11:08
Quote from Celebrian on May 27, 2006, 23:25
I don't like the works that are obvious rip-offs much but I think some of the works he has inspired are more a compliment than an insult.


I agree with this statement. I have read a number of fantasy novels, and I believe due to the "expectation" of what fantasy is supposed to be, that many stories seem to have the same elements over and over again. This is not true for all of them, obviously, but I am sure that even in those stories you could find "elements" or "themes" or whatever from Tolkien. In some cases, the author was influenced by Tolkien and that is all fine and well. Especially if they have a good story that is written well and contains alot of original ideas. I just don't care for the books that sound too much like one story or another, particularly Tolkien. These stories are usually written poorly and do not have many original ideas (their idea of originality is just changing names).

But as discussed in this thread, we know that Tolkien was not the start of fantasy, and he was not the original creator of all things in his stories. Perhaps he just knew how to wield them the best toward the better story. Like the elves, and orcs.

It is hard not to compare modern fantasy to Tolkien. Tolkien definitely inspired fantasy authors from his time on, and frankly if I were to write a fantasy novel it would be hard for me to write original ideas that weren't Tolkien. I just admire LOTR that much. But we can't point at every fantasy novel that looks like it copied LOTR and say it did, because of what "fantasy" really is. Fantasy dates back to way before Tolkien. It is evident in every little tale and story there is that has been passed down through the generations. You can look at any mythology from any country and there is fantasy. It is obvious that even Tolkien was influenced by the fantasy stories before him when he wrote LOTR.

Tolkien just did what he did best: write an ageless story that will be remembered and revered for ages to come.
Members Online
Print Friendly, PDF & Email