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Figwit
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Post 2.IX. The Great River
on: October 23, 2003 01:17
1) What is the meaning of the black swans the Fellowship encounter on the Anduin?

2) How has the relationship between Boromir and Aragorn
evolved from their first encounter at the council till now?


If anyone comes up with other questions, feel free to PM me and I'll add them.

[Edited on 28/1/2004 by Figwit]
Figwit
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Post RE: 2.IX. The Great River
on: October 30, 2003 12:17
1) What is the meaning of the black swans the Fellowship encounter on the Anduin?


I have no idea - that's why I asked this question. I'm very very sad that no one bothered to answer it - yet !



2) How has the relationship between Boromir and Aragorn
evolved from their first encounter at the council till now?


I always found it strange that Aragorn never turns to Boromir for advice after Gandalf dies - after all Boromir is the only member of the Fellowship of whom we know for certain that he has some skills as a captain and a leader - he's captain of the White Tower, and heir to the steward's throne so...
Aragorn just keeps making his own decisions, and for some reason that bothers me immensely.

Also, when reading this chapter I think Aragorn hasn't been honest with Boromir yet, and told him that he's not going to travel to Minas Tirith with him. Yes, Tolkien writes that he's still in doubt; but I have the distinct feeling that he had decided on that even before they entered Lórien.
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Post RE: 2.IX. The Great River
on: October 30, 2003 03:14
you know i never thought about the black swans before and hmm nope i really cant think that they are significant.. swans dont really strike me as a spying vessel of sauron or saruman...

I always found it strange that Aragorn never turns to Boromir for advice after Gandalf dies - after all Boromir is the only member of the Fellowship of whom we know for certain that he has some skills as a captain and a leader


"Merry and Pippin were ill at ease, for boromir sat muttering to himself, somtimes biting his nails, as if some restlessness or doubt consumed him, somtimes siezing a paddle and driving the boat close behind aragorns."

now merry and pippin havent been around as long as aragorn, but even they were ill at ease with boromirs behaviour... i take aragorn as a better judge of character than those two, at least in this point of the book. and therefore i would imagine aragorn had also noticed this bizzare behaviour, and possibly concluded it was due to the ring.

would you ask advice from someone knowing that their motivations were likely to be driven by the small peice of gold that one member of the party was carrying, instead of driven by rational thought.

((yeah i know this is an older thread... but its suprising how interesting analysing the books becomes when your faced with journal articles on immunology! ))
Figwit
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Post RE: 2.IX. The Great River
on: October 30, 2003 03:38
lol! well, not thát much older

the funny behavior only starts now really, not before - Boromir hasn't been consulted once. he's offered advice, but I think it was only taken twice (once in Moria and once with the faggots in the snow)...

a Man would go mad for being ignored alll the time
atalante_star
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Post RE: 2.IX. The Great River
on: October 30, 2003 05:04
1) What is the meaning of the black swans the Fellowship encounter on the Anduin?

I can't help but think that this is some significance to these. In The Treason of Isengard, the swans weren't mentioned, but what was there is:
"High in the air there were flocks of dark birds"


If there was no meaning to them, I would expect simply a mention "oh, look, some pretty swans", not:
Once or twice the travellers heard the rush and whine of swan-wings, and looking up they saw a great phalanx streaming along the sky.
"Swans!" said Sam. "And mighty big ones too!"
"Yes," said Aragorn, "and they are black swans."


The appearance of the black swans was deemed worthy of note by Aragorn, a seasoned traveller throughout much of Middle-earth. Would this mean that swans weren't normally found in that part of the world, at that time of the year?

Aragorn doesn't seem particularly alarmed by the swans, more curious if anything.

They could have been spies - just *maybe* of Saruman, but maybe of Radagast - were they checking out where the Fellowship was so the swans could report back to Radagast?

Could they have been some sort of "maiar" type creature like the mearas? In that case, could they have been visiting Lorien - where the half-Telerin Galadriel lived?
Alquatari
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Post RE: 2.IX. The Great River
on: October 30, 2003 06:18
They could have been spies - just *maybe* of Saruman, but maybe of Radagast - were they checking out where the Fellowship was so the swans could report back to Radagast?


While reading this chapter I considered those swan were Sauron-created spies… And even they remind me those “not ordinary” wolves meeting by fellowship near Caradhras. But now… Yes, I agree, they probably could be any type.
In any case it was bad sign. May be Tolkien introduced these swans into the story just for increasing feeling of anxiety and tension?
atalante_star
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Post RE: 2.IX. The Great River
on: October 31, 2003 01:38
While reading this chapter I considered those swan were Sauron-created spies… And even they remind me those “not ordinary” wolves meeting by fellowship near Caradhras. But now… Yes, I agree, they probably could be any type.
In any case it was bad sign. May be Tolkien introduced these swans into the story just for increasing feeling of anxiety and tension?


I just don't get the feeling that they were Sauron-created spies - Aragorn didn't seem bothered by them, unlike when he saw the crebain. Also they didn't seem like they were searching, and presumably they would have come to check out the boat if they were Evil Swans.

But they definitely seemed like Swans, not just swans, if you see what I mean. So what could they be?

1. An animal on the same lines as the mearas. In that case they could just be flying around having some fun. They wouldn't necessarily answer to anyone. Or they could choose to answer to someone - such as Galadriel (who must have an affinity for swans from the Telerin heritage)

2. A bewitched animal. Obvious candidates here are Saruman / Sauron (which I don't believe) and Radagast.

3. Just normal swans flying around and chilling out....and adding Alquatari's element of anxiety and tension

I dunno.....
Alquatari
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Post RE: 2.IX. The Great River
on: October 31, 2003 10:52
Just normal swans flying around and chilling out....and adding Alquatari's element of anxiety and tension

Don’t forget, I pretend to be alqua tari, so swans are subjects of mine, I am warning about them…

Well, another thought came into my mind.
May be it doesn’t means nothing but that Mordor is near.
Tolkien mentioned: orcs’ arrows were “black-feathered”. Orcs could probably use swans’ feathers. May be those black swans were typical for that southern part of Middle-Earth? And while saying “they are black swans” Aragorn meant: “Mordor is at hand”?

How has the relationship between Boromir and Aragorn evolved from their first encounter at the council till now?

I think at the very beginning their relationship are quite good. They were on side with each other. Boromir says “strongest of us” meaning himself and Aragorn. But later Boromir begins suspect something is wrong. He tries catching something in Frodo’s sight to confirm or reject this. He no more trusts Aragorn. All Boromir’s thoughts are with his beloved homeland – Gondor. But Aragorn must take care of the entire Middle-Earth. So there is no understanding between them.


[Edited on 3/11/2003 by Alquatari]
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: 2.IX. The Great River
on: November 01, 2003 03:29
It seems that Mordor prefers black or dark animals. The nazgul road Black horses, and the crebain searching near Eregion (Hollin) were also dark. It does seem that there is a recurring theme in the forces of evil only choosing Dark Servants, kind of like the way the bad guys in the old weterns preferred black hats. Beyond that bit of stereotyping - I'm not really sure. I guess that if they were white swans the fellowship would not have been concerned.
Poor Boromir; he so wants the ring to go to Gondor, that he just cannot give up on trying to convince everyone. It is plain that he will follow the leadereship of Aragorn , reluctantly, at least for as lomng as there is hope fof convincing the fellowship to accompany him., but he knows that he'd have a better chance of that if they abandoned the Anduin.
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