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Figwit
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Post 2.X. The Breaking Of the Fellowship
on: October 26, 2003 10:53
This weeks questions are:

- Why do you think Aragorn doubts his leadership in this chapter? Do you think Gandalf did have a course plotted out?

- Did Boromir's attempt to take the Ring surprise you? Do you understand his motivations? What do you think caused it?
Why does Boromir return to the camp? What does it say about him as a character?

- What do you think of Frodo's decision to go on his own? Do you think he will succeed?

- How does the theme of choice reappear in this chapter?

- Do you like this as an ending for this book? How would you have ended it?

take a look at PbHf's Quote of the Week

[Edited on 28/1/2004 by Figwit]
Figwit
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Post RE: 2.X. The Breaking Of the Fellowship
on: October 30, 2003 12:29
Did Boromir's attempt to take the Ring surprise you? Do you understand his motivations? What do you think caused it?


Well, I don't know about others, but I was really surprised and shocked at his behaviour, at first. That he tries to persuade Frodo, well, I hadn't expected any less of him - but that he would use actual force, and loose his mind like that?

I do understand why it happened, though, after reading this chapter so many times: he's a lot more desperate than he shows. Throughout the entire journey he's been saying: I don't like this one bit, but I'm not in charge here. He's constantly been compromising: he will go home to Minas Tirith with what he assumes is the Heir of Isildur, he goes through Moria, he goes through Lórien, he is willing to return home alone...
I think in the end his true feelings show: his immense despair, his fear to return home, empty-handed. That's why I like the quote PbHf posted so much: you really see him struggling, trying to convince himself that he ís doing the right thing by his people.

Why does Boromir return to the camp? What does it say about him as a character?


This part of the book is really crucial to me, because it has taught me something very important: even when you make a huge mistake, never run away from the people you wronged and hurt. Boromir returns to the camp knowing full well that he ruined it all, and he doesn't attempt to hide it.

I think at this point, Boromir is the most complex and interesting character in the book (Galadriel would also apply, but it requires knowledge of things outside LOTR to say this): he's thoroughly human. And basically, I think he is a very good man forced to desperate actions because of extreme and demanding circumstances; of which he remains silent for too long.


How does the theme of choice reappear in this chapter?


Frodo has to choose their course, Aragorn has to choose whether to stay with the Fellowship or not, Boromir chooses to take his chance, Sam chooses to accompany his master.
k
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Post RE: 2.X. The Breaking Of the Fellowship
on: October 30, 2003 01:37
Why do you think Aragorn doubts his leadership in this chapter? Do you think Gandalf did have a course plotted out?


ive never been so sure that aragorn was as arrogant and sure of himself as some people are. certainly he was confident enough when gandalf was around but then it was obvious gandalf was the leader, when it came to him leading after gandalf died he was always kinda unsure about what he was doing.... he doubts his leadership even more because now it comes to making a real decision.... after moria he had galadriel and celeborn to help him out, on the anduin, well they had no choice but to followt he river- no decisions there. then suddently its up to him.. boromir has gone slight ring mad, the hobbits dont know enough about whats ahead of them. legolas is some young border guarding elf from the woodland realm and gimli has grown up on tales about the little advernture with smaug, i guess that none of them as far as hes concerned are able to advise them because none of them have seen any real danger... at least not danger like mordor.

i dont think gandalf had a course plotted, he said time and time again that he couldnt see far into the future on this mission. but... gandalf gives the impression of always knowing what hes doing, even when hes going purely on instinct or wait and see, he still appears to know whats going to happen.
Figwit
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Post RE: 2.X. The Breaking Of the Fellowship
on: October 30, 2003 02:02
then suddently its up to him.. boromir has gone slight ring mad, the hobbits dont know enough about whats ahead of them. legolas is some young border guarding elf from the woodland realm and gimli has grown up on tales about the little advernture with smaug, i guess that none of them as far as hes concerned are able to advise them because none of them have seen any real danger... at least not danger like Mordor.


lol, k, that is a very accurate description! maybe we should use these for the random block?

seriously, you make a very valid point there, about Aragorn never really needing to decide on anything before we get to this point - I never looked at it that way... mmm...


gandalf gives the impression of always knowing what hes doing, even when hes going purely on instinct or wait and see, he still appears to know whats going to happen.


I always assumed that he did have some bigger plan, but that he just didn't want to share it because it might put some members of the Fellowship off... Because he seems to have some kind of foresight (which Aragorn also has), I always assumed that he did know what was ahead, and that that's the reason why he kept silent about the rest of their journey.
k
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Post RE: 2.X. The Breaking Of the Fellowship
on: October 30, 2003 02:29
lol, k, that is a very accurate description! maybe we should use these for the random block?


LOL the legolas fans would be baying for blood... that or i would get hundreds of PMs informing me that legolas is strong and brave and should have taken the ring singlehandedly into mordor and tolkien was just biased against blondes... or something

((and since i cant make a post just dissing fan girls in book club i better talk about something else ))


Did Boromir's attempt to take the Ring surprise you? Do you understand his motivations? What do you think caused it?
Why does Boromir return to the camp? What does it say about him as a character?


now this one is really hard to answer, mostly because ive been hearing figwits version of boromir for so long (over a year man.. thats enough to change anyones perspective on a character!) that i forget what it was i thought of him to start with..

however, i dont think it suprised me very much that boromir tried to take the ring. i certainly at that point knew he was a bit ring mad and also tolkien had already talked in depth about the effect the ring had on people... so as soon as frodo and boromir had dissapeared i knew what was likely to have happened.

i understood boromirs motivations to be, firstly power. and secondly defence of his city. back then when i first read the book, i thought boromir was nasty, and rather stupid- people had told him about the ring and he still allowed himself to dream of glory by using it and therefore fell under its spell. and of course i thought of him as power mad, and at that point in time i thought wanting power over others= bad thing.

now, well i have a slightly differnt view. Theres no denying that boromir was a strong minded character. i believe though his falling under the spell of the ring was a little more complex than i first though...

for years and years he had been the next in line to rule gondor, he had worked and faught and denied himself any other life than that of serving the city that he would one day rule (remember he is in his 40's not married, no children and still living the life of a travelling warrior).
along comes this ring of power, with which he thinks he can drive back the armies of mordor for his city..

and with it comes this man, claiming to he heir of his city, a man that had never faught for Gondor, never watched his friends die in defence of his city, never counted the place as home... who will become ruler of boromirs home and "kingdom" simply because of his blood.

thats bound to stir resentment in anyone. and not just because this "ranger" would be taking his place, but because this ranger may well ruin his city... how can you rule when you dont even know the place and the people??

so now you have the situation where you have just found out your no longer heir to your city, your miles from anywhere with strange people who dont think like you (from what i can tell boromir is a fight first think later kinda guy, whilst the others are the kind to avoid fighting if possible) and this ring, which you just _know_ you could put to some use, and you just _know_ that all the elders are just kinda scared and you do have the power to control it, for a little while at least. and maybe if you had the ring then you could rule your city how you want not how this strange guy wants you to....

couple all that with the natural power of the ring working over several months on those weak spots. and well thats what i think boromirs motivation was/ what caused him to try and take the ring. if it wasnt for the rings natural evil powers boromirs desire for power wouldnt have been "evil" cus he only really wanted what he thought was the best for his city- the ultamite patriotism i guess

and as for why he came back... well what else is there to do- no matter what boromir was and what he tried to do, his original motivations were not bad ones, and his character wasnt bad either. i think that he would have seen it as running away, and everyone knows good soldiers dont "run away"
also after his bout of madness, common sense kicked in, so he couldnt be near frodo but the others could... after all frodo was only little and he couldnt be running loose with the ring and who knows what kind of trouble he could get into without everyone else looking out for him.
but as well as that, the influence of the ring was still there too- the ring mad side of his brain was more than likely trying to work out ways to get frodo back with them so he would have another chance at taking the ring
atalante_star
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Post RE: 2.X. The Breaking Of the Fellowship
on: October 30, 2003 02:46
i would get hundreds of PMs informing me that legolas is strong and brave and should have taken the ring singlehandedly into mordor and tolkien was just biased against blondes... or something


LOL! Can you imagine!! But please could you quote exactly where Tolkien says Legolas is a blonde, please? And if not, I don't think you can say that Tolkien is prejudiced against blondes ....

Oh, and hang on, Legolas *is* strong and brave and should have taken the ring singlehandedly into mordor!!!



>


from k: dude i never said he was blonde.. me i reckon hes ginger.. but the fan girls think hes blonde, was just quoting them

[Edited on 30/10/2003 by k]
Figwit
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Post RE: 2.X. The Breaking Of the Fellowship
on: October 30, 2003 02:55
ive been hearing figwits version of boromir for so long (over a year man.. thats enough to change anyones perspective on a character!) that i forget what it was i thought of him to start with..


well, I didn't know I had such an influence on people

anyway, your post still sounds like your own opinion and not mine - though, now you mention it, I do agree

You mentioned that his first motivation was power, and I agree; but I think what he requires is not power just for the sake of being powerful, but power so he can change things. That's what I meant in the quote thread with 'immortality': Boromir is only a Human being, with limitations, with a body that will grow old and abandon him...
It has taken Aragorn 80 years to become what he is, and only now has he become suitable as a King. Boromir can never really be strong or powerful enough to safe Gondor on his own, and I think he knows that.

atalante, if you're bored, there's like at least 21 other threads for you to post in around here

yes, but I might have to turn my brain on for those. I'm not awake enough yet. :dizzy:

[Edited on 30/10/2003 by atalante_star]
k
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Post RE: 2.X. The Breaking Of the Fellowship
on: October 30, 2003 03:03
yep exactely.. the point i think i was attempting to make in my ridiculously confused and rambly style was that-

the ring works (IMO) by picking up on peoples desires for power starting off by making the person think that they can get what they wanted, and then working on the person till the kind of power they want is the not good kind...

that boromir started off just wanting the power to make his city a good place, free from the threat of mordor. The ring was then able to work on this desire for power, no matter how altruistic it was to start with, and make boromir into what he became.

Boromir can never really be strong or powerful enough to safe Gondor on his own, and I think he knows that


yes but his choices were the ring.. that he could weild himself aand therefore save gondor his own way or aragorn whom he didnt know or particularly care for IMO.
Figwit
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Post RE: 2.X. The Breaking Of the Fellowship
on: October 30, 2003 03:08
yes but his choices were the ring.. that he could weild himself aand therefore save gondor his own way or aragorn whom he didnt know or particularly care for IMO.


I agree: I don't think allowing Aragorn to go solve everything was ever an option for Boromir. He was pretty sceptic at the council, and I don't think he changed that opinion.
*spoiler for later chapters*
Besides, when you dig a bit further down you'll find that in the Appendixes, it's said that the Steward of Gondor has refused a claim to the throne by a Dúnedain King before! So I wouldn't at all be surprised if Boromir remembered that, and a) thought the same or b) knew that his father would attempt at the same thing?
*end spoiler*

I don't really think the Ring does much itself: I mean, it's inherent to the human psyche to go blowing things out of proportion and start focussing on one thing. I think it's enough for a person to know what the power of the Ring is, to become tempted by it. Does that make sense at all?
k
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Post RE: 2.X. The Breaking Of the Fellowship
on: October 30, 2003 03:20
hmm i never really thought of it that way...

i always though the ring had some kind of power in its own way (i know my description of how i think it works sounds very supernatural but its the closest i can come) after all.. didnt it try and "persuade" frodo to keep putting it on his finger. and gandalf often describes it as having a kind of mind of its own.. "wanting" to leave gollum and "wanting" to be found by someone else... that cant be a result of someone knowing what the ring is capable of. can it?

i always thought the ring was able to give susceptable peoples thoughts a kind of nudge in the right direction. im not denying that the influence of the ring is alot to do with what people want to start with and how the idea of the ring can do lots itself... but i think theres something else more to it.
Figwit
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Post RE: 2.X. The Breaking Of the Fellowship
on: October 30, 2003 03:31
when you put it that way, I agree: the Ring does pull at Frodo several times... [erm, and it's not supernatural, it's magic ]

I guess I'm one for over-psychologising everything
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Post RE: 2.X. The Breaking Of the Fellowship
on: November 01, 2003 04:08
Frodo has decided to go on his own for two resons- He wants to remove the ring from the presence of those that could be tempted by it and he cannot bring himself to endanger his friends further by having them accompany him. He also knows that the abilities of his frends cannot help him on the remainder of his journey. Once he crosses the River, there are to many enemies around for them to succeed by force of arms. Hobbits are known for their abilitiy to travel silently and keep themselves hidden and it is by using this "stealth" inate in hobbits that Frodo has any chance of succeeding


Sam shows his true nature and abilities admirably in this chapter. When Aragorn says that it is time to make a choice, Sam already knows what Frodo's choice will be, though he decides not to speak at that time.
He seems to be the wisest member of the fellowship as he obviously knows Frodo must do more than anyone else, but that is not really surprising as that has been his only purpose in this journey, as he sees it; to look after Frodo's needs and make things easier for him while he keeps his mind focused on his mission. While the others pondered what to do next , Sam's only interest is in the welfare of Frodo.
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