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BlueberryMuffins76

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on: March 30, 2015 01:13

Estelenor, that makes perfect sense to me! Thranduil is definitely complex. But this thread is for discussing him

Yes, it was sad when the elk (who seems to be nameless

) was killed. However, I have given the Elvenking a new elk in a fanfic named Sigilaras (he's probably the son of the original one).
Yes, Elfeawen, that scene was horrifying! Especially when you are watching it for the second time with a little sister who doesn't like Thranduil. I need to watch BotFA again before I decide if I think Tauriel was actually trying to kill the Elvenking there or whether she was just warning him that she meant business. I was on Youtube last night and it played a commercial with that scene, and I was still freaking out!(I will just go ahead and admit I have mixed feelings on Tauriel & like her less after BotFA, even if I do think Kili should have lived so she could marry him. I really think it's where she constantly defies Thranduil, & I'm obviously on his side.)

"Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:13, NIV I'm a fanfiction writer and appreciate reviews! Check me out at https://www.fanfiction.net/u/6434280/BlueberryMuffins76

Eruwestiel_Evensong

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on: April 01, 2015 03:44

I watched BotFA again last night. I noticed more things this time around. I don't really think Tauriel was trying to kill Thranduil, but she might have if he had kept coming.

And I thought of something else. You know the part where Thranduil is talking about the white jewels and it cuts to Thorin picking up a necklace? He said, "I know an Elf who would pay a pretty price for these jewels." Well...what if that necklace belonged to Thranduil's wife?

"And I dreamed of seas and ships, and of waves crashing on the shore in the twilight of the world..." ~Song, member of the Realm of Ulmo

BlueberryMuffins76

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on: April 01, 2015 06:04

I haven't been able to watch it again. But I will definitely need to try to keep my outrageous fangirling over a certain Elvenking at bay so I can pay more attention!

~Collapses on the floor~ Oh my! I never even thought that the necklace could have been the Elvenqueen's! I hope they tell us more in the EE. I kind of assumed that was Girion's emerald necklace that Bilbo actually gave him after the battled ended in the book. However, consultation with someone else leads me to think this is not the same necklace. Oh my goodness! That would be just crazy & I think you are giving me a story idea! It probably doesn't help that I'm not a Thorin fan...

Elfeawen Lomiondil

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on: April 03, 2015 04:16

Blueberry

I really think it's where she constantly defies Thranduil, & I'm obviously on his side.)

I can sort of understand that, even though I'm a huge Tauriel fan. But have you thought about what Tauriel means to him and try to forgive her for his sake? Its partly intuition and partly Fisher's visual companion, but I believe that he sees her as a daughter and that she is the only person since his wife’s death that he has allowed himself to care deeply for, after Legolas. I think he would not have sought her out at the end to seek a new beginning if he did not care for her.
Again, I don’t think she would ever want to kill him. She could have released her arrow (and he would have cut it out of the air), but she just wanted him to stop. I think she acted out of pure frustration and desperation, and without thinking. I think the harsh things he said back to her showed that he cared about her, and was angry and frustrated with her because he cared. He didn’t want her to throw away her life for what he believed was false feelings for a mortal.

Estelanor:

In the final scene with Tauriel and Thranduil, what I think is real interesting is when Tauriel says something like; "if this is love, I don't want it. Take it away" I think she is willing to give up on friendship, and become the sort of cold unfeeling elf she believed Thranduil to be, BUT then Thranduil's words to her show that he isn't unfeeling, and that while losing a loved one is painful, you shouldn't give up and become hard and cold. I am certain Thranduil was thinking about his wife's death in this scene.

Whoa . . I think you are right. After he said his line, I saw that they understood each other now that they shared loss. I saw Tauriel realizing that she had a choice: she could become like Thranduil, or she could accept her grief and keep her heart open. But I really like your interpretation of what she meant by “Take it away. Please.” Its like she was saying, “You were right. Make me strong like you.” Then he answered, “No, this is not the way to be strong.”
Blueberry:

Although I find Thranduil rather courageous; just think, he's been hiding his feelings all these years, sharing them with no one, then sees the light and starts sharing. That takes a lot out of someone, even an Elf King I'm sure! But that's probably where I have this bias towards Thranduil...

Totally agree. This was the bravest, hardest, wisest thing he did. He could have just let Tauriel and Legolas go, thinking he’d lost them forever.

Blueberry:

Just curious, you said Tauriel believes Thranduil is cold and unfeeling; I see through to all his sweet, good points

You saw his true feelings before I did, though I had some sympathy after reading UT. I think Tauriel’s accusation was coming true, though, if he had continued like that much longer he would have lost the ability to feel. So they helped each other. I actually wrote about the confrontation scene from his point of view in the Favorite Tauriel Scenes thread. If you check it out, I’d be curious to see what you think. Its okay to disagree if you share your version!

"There shall be war between the Children of Iluvatar and the Ainu Melko. What if we perish in our quest? The dark halls of VÃª be little worse than this bright prison" ~ FÃ«anor

Estelanor Of The Shire

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on: April 05, 2015 01:19

BlueberryMuffins76 said:
Yes, it was sad when the elk (who seems to be nameless ) was killed. However, I have given the Elvenking a new elk in a fanfic named Sigilaras (he's probably the son of the original one).

I have a "fan theory" about a new elk for Thranduil as well

Wouldn't it be nice if Dain Ironfoot found an orphan baby elk, and gave it to Thrandil as a peace offering/apology? Then Thranduil gives a piglet to Dain. Dain lost his faithful pig, so I think that would be a good way for the kings of Erebor and Mirkwood to make friends and begin a new era of trust and friendship between elves and dwarves.
I picture Thranduil at a very formal dinner, dressed neatly and looking very composed as always, and then his baby elk comes running into the room, bleating hungrily. Thranduil drops his formal expression, smiles fondly, and scoops the elk onto his lap and gives it a bottle of milk.
Everyone stares at the king, but then across the room, Dain's piglet starts squealing.

It is just too sad to leave Thranduil and Dain without their pets!

[Edited on 04/06/2015 by Estelanor Of The Shire]

May it be when darkness falls, your heart will be true..

findemaxam48

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on: April 06, 2015 03:12

In the book, the necklace was made for Thranduil's wife- I read it in a companion or something...having bought the DVD yesterday, I put it on subtitles...and Thorin said something like "The Jewels of..." And then a name. Is that the name of Thranduil's wife? I will check it out in a little bit. I want to do research on it with my encyclopedia and stuff before I report back.

That is a very cute theory, Estelanor. (Did you know the first part of your name translates to "Sun hope" in Sindarin?)

We were one in the same, running like moths to the flame. You'd hang on every word I'd say, but now they only ricochet.

Estelanor Of The Shire

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on: April 06, 2015 05:13

findemaxam48 said:

That is a very cute theory, Estelanor. (Did you know the first part of your name translates to "Sun hope" in Sindarin?)

Thanks!
Yes, plus if you cut of the "Est", it turns into "Elanor" which is the name of an elvish flower(I think??) and Sam's daughter, and the last song title in the EE of ROTK. So it is sort of hobbitish as well as being elvish

Or could it translate as "Fire hope" (or Flame of hope?), as well?

Looking forward to your report on the jewels!

May it be when darkness falls, your heart will be true..

BlueberryMuffins76

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on: April 06, 2015 05:59

I have to agree with Maxie on the fan theory, Estelanor! I couldn't put it any better! How adorable!
Elfeawen, I'd also agree with all you say. I like Tauriel in some ways, but in some ways I don't like her. But I'd definitely agree that Thranduil thinks of her more as a daughter than anything. I really should check out your Tauriel thread at some point; I try to stay away from places where there might be controversy because I like to speak my mind. At least on here I am typing so I can always erase it before I actually reply!

Elfeawen Lomiondil

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on: April 06, 2015 12:19

I know what you mean about controversy, it gets not fun after a while. That's why I started a fan thread for Tauriel in Casting, so there'd be a fun, friendly place for fans to hang out. The post I mentioned is in Movie Discussion, and the atmosphere was fairly positive last I checked. By the way, I'm enjoying the conversation over here.

findemaxam48:

I put it on subtitles...and Thorin said something like "The Jewels of..." And then a name. Is that the name of Thranduil's wife?

I am fairly certain he sad the "jewels of Losgalen", meaning Mirkwood. I could be wrong though.

The elk-piglet story is quite charming, Estelanor. I believe the elk is modeled on the ginat elk, one of my favorite prehistoric animals. I really like it, but when I first saw it, I was a bit envious because I have elk riders in one of the stories I am writing, and now its not original!

Here's a link. https://ferrebeekeeper.wordpress.com/2012/03/13/the-irish-elk/

Does anyone know what Thranduil's name means?

"There shall be war between the Children of Iluvatar and the Ainu Melko. What if we perish in our quest? The dark halls of VÃª be little worse than this bright prison" ~ FÃ«anor

Estelanor Of The Shire

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on: April 17, 2015 04:55

findemaxam48 said:Is that the name of Thranduil's wife? I will check it out in a little bit. I want to do research on it with my encyclopedia and stuff before I report back.

Have you discovered anything in your research yet, about the necklace and Thranduil's wife? Just curious! I'm picturing you sifting through an ancient library like Gandalf in the prologue to Fellowship...

May it be when darkness falls, your heart will be true..

Edhelharn

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on: April 18, 2015 04:47

findemaxam48 said:Is that the name of Thranduil's wife? I will check it out in a little bit. I want to do research on it with my encyclopedia and stuff before I report back.

As far as I can tell, the Lasgalen jewels (Lasgalen meaning "Greenwood", I think, as in Eryn Lasgalen) were commissioned by Thranduil to be set in silver by the dwarves. This is from my BotFA Chronicles book I have, and Alan Lee says in addition that the jewels are the "reason for the enmity between Thranduil and the dwarves." In the UJ, the dwarf is shown offering Thranduil a box of shining gems, and in the EE of that, the dwarf snaps the box shut and takes it back.

[Edited on 04/18/2015 by Edhelharn]

Love is the strongest force the world possesses - Mahatma Gandhi

Elfeawen Lomiondil

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on: April 20, 2015 04:42

Here’s a fun story about the first Thranduil fan I met.

The librarian was checking out my books, when she asked out of the blue, “Did you like the movie?”
Without thinking, I said, “Yes, I liked it.” Then I thought, wait, what movie are we talking about?!
She nodded seriously. “I saw it three times.” Thinking, I really hope we’re talking about BOTFA, I agreed.
“I saw it twice.” I don’t know how she knew I was a fan, but we were indeed talking about the same movie. (Maybe it was my hair braided like Tauriel’s?) We launched into an earnest conversation, and she told me that Thranduil had been her favorite since seeing him in the prologue to AUJ. She had a big disagreement with a family member over him. “She says he’s too cold,” she explained, “but I just want to protect him.” She also liked Pace in Pushing Up Daisies, which he starred in. “Although, she admitted, “I can’t watch too many episodes at once because I can’t bear to see him go through any more physical or emotional pain.” One of her favorite moments was when he pulled out his second sword.

"There shall be war between the Children of Iluvatar and the Ainu Melko. What if we perish in our quest? The dark halls of VÃª be little worse than this bright prison" ~ FÃ«anor

BlueberryMuffins76

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on: April 30, 2015 08:19

Yes, your all's explanation for the name attached to the jewels seem logical to me! Sorry I have been away so long! Believe me, Thranduil has by no means been forgotten, seeing as how I write at least one sentence with him daily... er, ahem, moving on here.
Thranduil means "vigorous spring", as I have seen on several different sources.
Oh! That's funny & precious about the librarian, Elfeawen! I totally want to protect him too! He's just someone who obviously needs love & care to ease his aching heart.
So, I have a question for you all: when you read about Thranduil, how do you prefer him? Sassy, sweet, or more dark? I find I enjoy all aspects of him when I write, although sassy is definitely the most fun when the inspiration strikes.

Elfeawen Lomiondil

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on: May 04, 2015 04:55

"Vigorous Spring" I like it. A fitting metaphor for his recovery from the "winter" of his life.

To answer your question, he should be all those things. What I like best about him is that he is complex. He is also unpredictable, and this makes watching/reading about him riveting. I never know what he is going to do or say next. Kind of alarming, sometimes but he keeps me guessing.

My question to Thranduil scholars: When do you think he encountered a dragon? "Do not speak to me of dragon fire. I know of its wrath and ruin."

"There shall be war between the Children of Iluvatar and the Ainu Melko. What if we perish in our quest? The dark halls of VÃª be little worse than this bright prison" ~ FÃ«anor

BlueberryMuffins76

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on: May 04, 2015 11:39

I love his name too, Elfeawen! Nice interpretation.
You know, he surprises me sometimes when I write him. I enjoy writing all aspects of him; have you read any of my writing? (Although I guess that would be better in a PM).
Well, as far as the films go, I am convinced that Thranduil had the dragon encounter not too long after Legolas was born. Judging from BotFA, it seems to have happened near Dol Guldur, although as to specifically when I'm not sure. I can't find anything in the timelines that tells us when this happened. But I tend to think there was some great altercation there & his wife insisted on going with him. He gets his scar while trying to save her from the dragon, but fails. I'm really hoping the EE of BotFA will tell us more about the whole situation.
Thranduil has no scar in the books that is mentioned, so it's purely a movie thing. I could be wrong & he could have gotten his scar much earlier than that; perhpas 1300 of the third age, wherein Tolkien says "evil things multiply" (RotK Appendix B). As much as I love the How to Train Your Dragon king of dragon, in Middle Earth they are definitely evil things.

BlueberryMuffins76

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on: May 05, 2015 07:58

Just so everyone knows, flyingarrow has a poll up that's Thranduil versus Legolas. You can find it here in the casting forum. So far, Thranduil is winning! Of course, you all know I think he deserves to win lol

Elfeawen Lomiondil

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on: May 17, 2015 05:15

I have not read anyone's fanfic here yet, I am still finding my way around.

I also love the HTYD dragons, but in ME Morgoth created dragons as weapons, so yeah, evil.

Do you mean Angmar? In BOTFA, we learn that Elvenqueen died in Angmar. Your theory sounds perfectly plausible. I will wait for the EE before I decide on a headcanon version, but these are the possibilities I am considering.

First Age - It seems Thranduil was born late in the First Age. Dragons were numerous then. Earendil had a bow made of dragon horn. This theory is not my favorite because I do not picture the dragon encounter happening so early in his life.

Second Age - War of the Last Alliance. I have never heard of a dragon fighting in the war that defeated Sauron, but I won't rule it out. It has some appeal to me, but still not convincing.

Third Age - Angmar is not mentioned as having a dragon either, but movieverse added connections to Angmar. I might favor this theory the most.

Barring EE revelations, I'm not sure if I would choose to believe that the dragon thing happened at the same time as the death of Elvenqueen or not. The only reason I say that is because I have this image in my mind: Perhaps Thranduil led a strikeforce against a dragon that threatened their borders early in the war with Angmar or even before. Elvenqueen had a dreadful premonition and followed. She came across a scene of devastation, a forest of ash white trees, crumbling. Elf warrios scattered and slain, the smell of burning. The dragon's lifeless form crushing scorched trees. Her boots scuffing ash like deathly snow, Elvenqueen searches. She finds him near the dragon's head. Anyone else would have taken him for dead. One side of his body is terribly burned. One side of his face is untouched, but his pale hair covers the other side. She drops to her knees, her hands alight with healing power and, she brushes his hair aside with the gentlest of touches. Her touch is the only soothing coolness in his burning world.

"There shall be war between the Children of Iluvatar and the Ainu Melko. What if we perish in our quest? The dark halls of VÃª be little worse than this bright prison" ~ FÃ«anor

flyingarrow

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on: May 18, 2015 12:36

wow! I like it! good ideas Elfawen!

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BlueberryMuffins76

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on: May 21, 2015 04:50

Yes, I do mean Angmar! I get all those orcish places mixed up

Oh! I love your theory! That's so beautiful I almost cried! I'm just curious, but how do you think the Elvenqueen died, Elfeawen? I have so many theories that I fear I'll end up with 20 versions of the same story!

Elfeawen Lomiondil

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on: May 26, 2015 01:12

Sorry to keep you waiting!

I think she fell in battle. In BOTFA, we learn that she died within Angmar. This dark kingdom was founded with the purpose of destroying or isolating the peoples of the North, and it lasted from TA 1300 to 1975, or 675 years. But the shadow fell on Greenwood in 1050, and Dol Guldur emerged as a stronghold of evil in 1100.

From what I’ve read of Angmar in the Appendices of ROTK, there is no mention of the Woodland Realm being involved. But you can see on a map that Angmar bordered Mirkwood. From what I know of Thranduil’s history and his terrible experiences in Mordor in the war of the Last Alliance, it seems in keeping with his personality that he would avoid war if he could. But he would defend his people, and against the growing evil of Angmar, he would have no choice. If the Silvan fought on their borders but did not participate in the wider war, this could explain why they are never mentioned in the history I read.

There is another possibility for Silvan involvement. Angmar was finally overthrown by Elves and Men working together. For this battle, “Cirdan summoned all who would come to him, from Lindon or Arnor.” Now the Woodland Realm wasn’t actually part of Arnor, but it was close, and if ever Thranduil would break his isolationist policy, I think it would be to carry the fight to the enemy for the survival of the Free People, as he did when he went to war with Sauron. He is proud and independent and disinclined to accept the leadership of another such as Gil-galad of the Noldor, but if there were any he would follow, I think it may be Cirdan. He is widely respected and descended from the same folk as Thranduil.

Getting back to the Elvenqueen, I see two main possibilities. She may have been killed in a border skirmish, or in the climactic battle. Of course she could have been captured, taken within Angmar and killed, perhaps as a rescue attempt was made, like Finduilas of Nargothrond. But that is too gruesome to contemplate, so I prefer to think she went down fighting. Elf leaders usually lead from the front, and take the most dangerous tasks for themselves. Perhaps she tried to take out the Witch King!

I suppose others may have very different ideas about her personality, but I think she was rather independent and outgoing like her son. This would be a source of concern for Thranduil, and her death would make him determined to protect Legolas and Tauriel from a similar fate. They would be too young to understand this, however.

"There shall be war between the Children of Iluvatar and the Ainu Melko. What if we perish in our quest? The dark halls of VÃª be little worse than this bright prison" ~ FÃ«anor

BlueberryMuffins76

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on: May 27, 2015 01:08

Wow! I'm amazed at all your research, Elfeawen! Everything you say seems very logical. I love the idea of Thranduil following Cirdan to protect his realm.
I think someone else suggested that the Elvenqueen tried to take on the Witch King & was killed that way. It would make for an interesting, albeit heartbreaking, fanfic at any rate.
Interesting. I like to think of her more as so wholly devoted to her husband that she insisted on fighting by his side, as much as he didn't like it. Although I guess that is kind of being independent & outgoing, as you say. At any rate, it definitely makes sense for Thranduil to want to prevent his son & Tauriel from meeting the same sort of fate.
I've probably mentioned this numerous times, but what if the Elvenqueen wasn't dead at all? What if she stuck to the background during the Hobbit, or was just away visiting the elves in Lothlorien or something? Since Dis, Fili & Kili's mother, is the only female mentioned in the book that I recall, I see no reason why she has to be either dead or sailing to the Undying Lands. Gloin was actually already married and had Gimli at the time, yet no mention is made of his wife and son. If that dwarf isn't mentioned, then surely there were other women who've just been stuck into the sidelines and ignored. But that could just be me, since I find it utterly heartbreaking for sweet Thranduil's wife to be actually dead :/

BlueberryMuffins76

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on: May 29, 2015 11:46

If you all saw the poll Thranduil or Legolas, the Elvenking has won! Someone pointed out (perhaps Maxie?) that without Thranduil, there would be no Legolas, which I find very good logic.I just thought ya'll should know! (Plus it gave me a chance to gloat just a bit

Leggy really isn't all that bad [albeit I do like him better in the books than in the films]; it's just I much prefer his father).

Elfeawen Lomiondil

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on: June 01, 2015 04:49

BlueberryMuffins76 said:

Interesting. I like to think of her more as so wholly devoted to her husband that she insisted on fighting by his side, as much as he didn't like it. Although I guess that is kind of being independent & outgoing, as you say.

Elfeawen's reply: Mmhm, I don’t disagree. I had not meant that she went into the battle that was her last without telling Thranduil or against his wishes, that would be really upsetting to me.

I've probably mentioned this numerous times, but what if the Elvenqueen wasn't dead at all? What if she stuck to the background during the Hobbit, or was just away visiting the elves in Lothlorien or something? Since Dis, Fili & Kili's mother, is the only female mentioned in the book that I recall, I see no reason why she has to be either dead or sailing to the Undying Lands. Gloin was actually already married and had Gimli at the time, yet no mention is made of his wife and son. If that dwarf isn't mentioned, then surely there were other women who've just been stuck into the sidelines and ignored. But that could just be me, since I find it utterly heartbreaking for sweet Thranduil's wife to be actually dead :/

Your reasoning is excellent, Blue. Of course, dwarven women live far more reclusive lives than Elven women so it is less unusual for Gimli’s mother to be unknown than Legolas’s mother, but that is rather beside the point, because there are plenty of people like Elros’s wife who go unnamed and unmentioned. I agree that, based on The Hobbit where the Elvenking is unnamed and his son never mentioned, there is a strong case that the queen could be alive and present. Moving on to LOTR with more information given about Legolas’s family, the case seems a little less strong to me, but far from improbable. It is when we look at the whole of Tolkien’s writing that the queen’s absence becomes conspicuous. However, as I noted above, this happens to some of Tolkien’s characters, and it doesn't mean they all died.

For my self, I rather thought that her lack of mention indicated that she had died, or I chose to take it that way. But I would never try to change someone’s mind if they wanted to think something different about a matter that was open to interpretation like this one. Of course, in the movieverse, Elvenqueen died in Angmar. This is important to Thranduil’s character in the movie, a portrayal I think you liked. Are you sure you would like to sacrifice that? If you have the taste for it, you could view it as an alternate universe or something. Wait, I just had a crazy idea! Legolas said she had no grave. What if they never saw her die? What if she didn’t!? Okay, actually this theory is pretty weak unless we could explain how she survived without anyone knowing for hundreds of years. Perhaps she escaped but lost her memory, and has been wandering the wilds ever since. Perhaps she was imprisoned and got free when Sauron died.

Even if you accept that Elvenqueen is dead, take heart. Elves that perish will be reborn, and she may yet be reunited with her husband.

[Edited on 06/02/2015 by Elfeawen Lomiondil]

"There shall be war between the Children of Iluvatar and the Ainu Melko. What if we perish in our quest? The dark halls of VÃª be little worse than this bright prison" ~ FÃ«anor

BlueberryMuffins76

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on: June 02, 2015 08:22

Yes! I just make that up for my own peace of mind though. The idea of Thranduil losing his wife just kills me! But I do see your point. It does seem likely that she's dead, since we're told what happens to Elrond's wife, Celebrian, & then of course there's Celeborn & Galadriel.
Oh yes! That's a cool theory! I had a theory that she got whipped into a portal like in Narnia or Once Upon a Time & got transported to another world & couldn't get back.
And yes, that's what I've always thought. They'll meet each other again in the Undying Lands or something.

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