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k
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Post Arwen- why her part worked...
on: January 01, 2004 10:15
Arwen (played by Liv Tyler) and her role in the Lord of the Rings trilogy has been discussed over and over again over the last couple of years.

I've heard complaints against the addition of the character ranging from stealing other characters roles (yes yes we all know that Glorfindel was the one who rescued Frodo in the books) to taking up screen time (and lets face it there were alot of Arwen/Aragorn romance scenes)

There were some rather large fears for the Return of the King movie after screen captures revealed that it was intended for her to be at Helms Deep.

However, despite all that i believe at the end of the films her role and the amount of screen time she had actually worked well.

I've known people who have read the books for the first time and been suprised about Arwen and Aragorns marriage- kind of "oh where did she come from" and that was with Tolkiens hints.

Imagine in the film if this elf had just turned up to marry Aragorn... how bizzare would that have been?

From the popularity of Legolas' character its obvious that the elves are interesting characters to the movie viewing public. Without extra screen time for the elves the films certainly wouldnt have thier fan girl following (now i know some of you think thats a bad bad thing, but hey some fangirls read the books too..eventaully)

Aragorns character becomes easier to understand as he has a motivation- hes obviously not driven by power in the films so he needs to be driven by something else....his love for Arwen takes that place.

All the characters get thier happy endings, and i was incredibly pleased to see Aragorn and Arwen happily reunite, yes tying her "lifeforce" to the fate of the ring was a bit much, but none of that seemed to matter in the end- im glad she was in the film and glad she had the screen time she did... suddenly all her scenes made some kind of sense in that final one.

opinions? have you changed your mind about Arwen after this third film? or do you still think she sucks..
losing_her_head
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Post RE: Arwen- why her part worked...
on: January 01, 2004 11:40
I've never had a problem either way. Truth be told, I have no particularily strong feelings towards Arwen.
iLikeLOTRaLittle2much
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Post RE: Arwen- why her part worked...
on: January 01, 2004 03:59
Oh, I totally, k! I agree that towards the beginning, I was rather bitter towards Arwen, but the more of her I saw, the more I liked. In the end, I really did like the movie-Arwen! And I cried like a baby when her and Aragorn were reunited... it added an element in there that we never got with the books, and certainly am not complaining.
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Post RE: Arwen- why her part worked...
on: January 01, 2004 08:32
Arwen is one of my favorite characters in the movies. I'm glad she wasn't at Helm's Deep only because she's never seemed like a warrior to me. It wouldn't have been right for the lovely Elf princess to be there. But I wouldn't have minded if she had had more scenes in the movies. I'm a sap, a romantic. And that kind of thing in a movie is always welcome, in my opinion.
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Post RE: Arwen- why her part worked...
on: January 02, 2004 03:53
Very well said k! I used to have a problem with Arwen when FOTR came out, but I got over that quite quickly as I don't think she does anything out of character. The whole 'her fate is tied to the Ring'-thing is tacky, but it is a good way of tying her and Aragorn's destiny back together again. As for screen time: there's never enough Liv .

Looking back on the three films, I think Arwen is one of the rare characters that wasn't altered at heart, along with Sam, Merry, Boromir, Gandalf, Gríma and Éomer.
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Post RE: Arwen- why her part worked...
on: January 02, 2004 04:30
Isn't there already a thread discussuing Arwen's role in the LOTR movies? This feels like deja vu.
k
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Post RE: Arwen- why her part worked...
on: January 02, 2004 07:20
*shrug* i did actually check with the movies mods before posting this topic. they said it was fine so thats good enough for me.
Eruantalincë
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Post RE: Arwen- why her part worked...
on: January 02, 2004 07:25
K, I totally agree with you (and I think I have mentioned my reasons in the other threads).
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Post RE: Arwen- why her part worked...
on: January 02, 2004 10:17
this would be different if only because it begins on a positive note
Lady~Eowyn
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Post RE: Arwen- why her part worked...
on: January 02, 2004 10:33
I've never had a problem either way. Truth be told, I have no particularily strong feelings towards Arwen.


Me too. Of course it would be queer if Arwen just showed up at the coronation, it'd cause too much confusion. The only problem I have with Arwen really is that she's one every one of the LoTR theatrical posters. And she does a pretty big space on it too. I would have prefered Pippin to be on the RotK thatrical poster.
Eruantalincë
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Post RE: Arwen- why her part worked...
on: January 02, 2004 03:58
The only problem I have with Arwen really is that she's one every one of the LoTR theatrical posters. And she does a pretty big space on it too. I would have prefered Pippin to be on the RotK thatrical poster.
Well, I do not think you can blame Arwen/Liv for that. Maybe an angry letter to New Line Cinema would be better.
hobbithole_dweller
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Post RE: Arwen- why her part worked...
on: January 04, 2004 10:16
I thought that they wrote and thought out Arwen's part very well but sometimes it felt like Peter, Fran, and Philippa was trying too hard to make sure that Arwen stayed revelant. Sometime is was like "enough with the flashbacks and visions already!"

But the parts that were used to further the story I enjoyed very much. I especially liked all the parts where we get to see glimpses of the life of King Elessar and Queen Arwen. :heart:
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Post RE: Arwen- why her part worked...
on: January 06, 2004 11:05

The only problem I have with Arwen really is that she's one every one of the LoTR theatrical posters. And she does a pretty big space on it too. I would have prefered Pippin to be on the RotK thatrical poster.


I agree, Merry and Pippin aren't on TTT or ROTK posters when they are two of the main characters.
I can understand that it would be strange if she just turned up, but they added so much of her it was almost " The Arwen and Aragorn story"
I don't mind her being in the first film because thay had to introduce her as Aragorns "lover" and make sure that people understand that they are in love, but in the two towers all they needed was possibly the scene when aragorn fell off the cliff to show the sort of love triangle between her, aragorn and eowyn, and one short scene with the evenstar and a bit of elrond telling her to go to the undieing lands. Not all of her lying on her bed and telling Aragorn to sleep ( in a very see through dress).
Lady~Eowyn
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Post RE: Arwen- why her part worked...
on: January 06, 2004 01:40
Well, I do not think you can blame Arwen/Liv for that. Maybe an angry letter to New Line Cinema would be better.


Lol hehe maybe, my friends and I joke so mcuh about going to co. and writing and angry letter or going to the head office with torchs and pitchforks. One time I said we should get Punk'd to destroy some co. head building lol.

But I agree with Niennafefalas I think they too far indepth(aka too much screentime) with A/A's relationship. I mean sure it was okay with Aragonrn's dream in TTT, but I think they had too much screentime. I mean I can see why they did all that stiff, to add drama but stil...
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Post RE: Arwen- why her part worked...
on: January 07, 2004 12:00
I can understand that it would be strange if she just turned up, but they added so much of her it was almost " The Arwen and Aragorn story"
I don't mind her being in the first film because thay had to introduce her as Aragorns "lover" and make sure that people understand that they are in love, but in the two towers all they needed was possibly the scene when aragorn fell off the cliff to show the sort of love triangle between her, aragorn and eowyn, and one short scene with the evenstar and a bit of elrond telling her to go to the undieing lands. Not all of her lying on her bed and telling Aragorn to sleep ( in a very see through dress).


Well if Boromir had to be blonde so people wouldn't confuse him with Aragorn, then maybe it was necessary to show a lot of Arwen? People in theatres went like: 'Who's that?' when Éomer appeared on the screen at the end of ROTK! That's how well they pay attention.

Besides, everyone always complains that their favorite character didn't have enough screentime: I think Arwen's time was really cut to a minimum. For every shot of Arwen that people complain about, I can name a shot of a random Elf, or Freda and Éothain, or any other character I couldn't care less about.

The point is to create a balance, and in 9 hours and 10 minutes of movie I don't think those few scenes of Arwen and Aragorn are too much of a good thing: after all Arwen ís important to Aragorn's story. In a way, Aragorn's story ís 'The Aragorn and Arwen Story'. So I don't think there was too much romance at all.

As for the see-through dress: I'd suggest you take a better look. That dress has at least three layers.
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Post RE: Arwen- why her part worked...
on: January 07, 2004 02:34
Of all the sub-plots within LotR, I believe PJ did Aragorn and Arwen's story justice.

As someone who's read Tolkien over and over and inside-out, it was particularly difficult for me to remain objective about her appearance in the movies. However, after further thinking about it I realised that for those who've never read the story nor heard a *thing* about the book(s), it would be extremely confusing for them had Arwen just materialised out of nowhere.

Therefore:


I've known people who have read the books for the first time and been suprised about Arwen and Aragorns marriage- kind of "oh where did she come from" and that was with Tolkiens hints.

Imagine in the film if this elf had just turned up to marry Aragorn... how bizzare would that have been?



I totally agree with you, k!

If Arwen were to be in the movies the way she was in the books, she would have about 10 minutes of screen-time over the course of roughly 9 hours of movie. Thinking about this helps put a bit of perspective on the situation! She is necessary to the plot since she helps those who've never read Tolkien to understand who exactly she is.

So, I quickly got over the fact she swiped Asfaloth from Glorfindel -- maybe he lent his horse to her for a day or three, . I also got over, though not as quickly, her *definately* stealing Frodo's glory when he stands up to the Nazûgul. I was most upset when I saw that they wrote Frodo to chicken out.

Also, what *does* still irk me about Arwen, though in a somewhat indirect way, is the addition of this "Love Triangle Thing" between her, Aragorn, and Éowyn. I can understand that books, especially those written by Tolkien, would be difficult to translate into film, but to re-write such an important aspect of the book? *shakes head* I don't understand! The other piece of this that irked me was the flimsy referrence to Éowyn and Faramir at Aragorn's coronation. To those who don't know the story of *these* two, they won't catch this very important referrence to their impending relationship. So, I was a little disappointed to see that it was simply a brief shot of the two of them standing there clapping, then giving each other a quick smile.

Not that I'm being picky, lol.

Anyway, in the end I really appreciated her presence in the films simply because she *is* an important character and her role in Aragorn's life is extremely significant so she needs to be well-represented on-screen.

Forgive me if none of this makes sense, it's 6:23AM and I'm exhausted, lol. I'm nursing a sick hamster back to health. He's got a bit of a cold methinks. He's rather lethargic and whatnot so he needs me help in taking care of him.

Anyway, take care.

Namárië,

Ovëlyn.
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Post RE: Arwen- why her part worked...
on: January 07, 2004 06:47
I really enjoyed Liv Tyler's performance, I thought she was magical. Particually, I thought that her part in the Two Towers was breathtaking, very powerful. The combination of her acting and the quality of the filming and the script was amazing. And the music as well! I love that theme of the book, it's just so moving. One of my favourite quotations from the film has to be (which was partly taken from the appenices);

"He will come to death: an image of the splendour of the Kings of Men in glory undimmed before the breaking of the world. But you, my daughter; you will linger on, in darkness and in doubt, as nightfall winter that comes without a star. Here you will dwell, bound to you grief, under the fading trees, until all the world has changed and the long years of your life are utterly spent. Arwen... there is nothing for you here, only death."

It's just so sad! And i thought that Liv portrayed this mood so exquisitly (sp?).



[Edited on 7/1/2004 by MrsBrandybuck]
Charis
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Post RE: Arwen- why her part worked...
on: January 07, 2004 12:41
If Arwen were to be in the movies the way she was in the books, she would have about 10 minutes of screen-time over the course of roughly 9 hours of movie. Thinking about this helps put a bit of perspective on the situation! She is necessary to the plot since she helps those who've never read Tolkien to understand who exactly she is.


I agree. And also, you have to remember that the books are told from the point of view of Hobbits. Anything the Hobbits would not have seen first hand or been told about isn't there. Aragorn never stops and says, "Okay, look you four Hobbits, there's this girl I love named Arwen and let me explain our story..." Therefore, we don't get a lot of Arwen. However, I keep on my mind that Arwen has far more to do with the plot of LOTR if you've read the appendices of the book RotK. Several of the lines are taken straight from them and a good deal of the way the characters are thinking, including Aragorn's not being able to see his destiny and Arwen watching over him from afar during the War of the Ring. Tolkien calls his little bit of written material on Aragorn and Arwen a "part" of the tale. Apparently, a whole lot more went on that we don't see. So PJ was totally within creative rights to make her a bigger part of the movie.
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Post RE: Arwen- why her part worked...
on: January 07, 2004 02:36
the only time i dislike arwen is in the second film. and the evenstar part. there is too much of arwen in the second film and i wish she couldve given frodo the even star
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Post RE: Arwen- why her part worked...
on: August 14, 2004 07:15
How come in the first film Arwen gets to ride out all alone with all the Nazgul about and then later on she has to be taken to the harbour by the safest route with lots of Elves. Sorry Elrond either you didn't know Arwen was gone the first time or you've suddently got a lot more protective.
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Post RE: Arwen- why her part worked...
on: August 14, 2004 08:16
I know they had to include Arwen more in the movies, and for the most part I didn't object. Her coming to save Frodo didn't bother me so much during that scene in FotR when Frodo was stabbed on Weathertop. But I do wish that they hadn't made Frodo seem weaker in order to do so.

The biggest problem I had with the changes that involved her was the scene where she's "dying" in RotK. After the life (or light?) of the Eldar left her, she became sick and pale. Aragorn has a dream where Arwen dies saying, "I wish I could have seen him one last time." Then Elrond comes around and tells Aragorn that "Arwen is dying; her fate is now tied to the Ring" or something. That just really bothered me. They made it seem like Arwen was on the brink of death or something. Bleh.
Vale_Undomiel
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Post RE: Arwen- why her part worked...
on: August 14, 2004 09:28
HeriTavaril:maybe in the first sequence u mention he let her go cos they were in need of haste but the second time also rememberin how his wife had been wounded attacked by the orcs he decided to send her on the safest road!

anyway i absolutely love her role in the films and i only wish tehre was much of her with Aragorn cos their story is important to the whole story of the ring and all...if it wasnt for Arwen, Aragorn would have never decided to become king i think and many other things happen thanks to Arwen...plus Liv is soo beautiful and so perfect as Child of Luthien.
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Post RE: Arwen- why her part worked...
on: August 14, 2004 09:42
The biggest problem I had with the changes that involved her was the scene where she's "dying" in RotK.


I totally agree. I have no idea why Peter Jackson included that scene, though I suspect that it was to build drama and make Aragorn a bit more anxious about destroying the ring. Though I found no refrences in the book saying that Arwen was connected to the ring...

And if she were, then why just her? She isn't the only elf in middle earth. Elrond seems unaffected by "the evil creeping from Mordor" He wasn't keeling over and practically dying.

Phew. I just had to get that off my chest.
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Post RE: Arwen- why her part worked...
on: August 14, 2004 02:33
The biggest problem I had with the changes that involved her was the scene where she's "dying" in RotK.


and if she were, then why just her? She isn't the only elf in middle earth. Elrond seems unaffected by "the evil creeping from Mordor" He wasn't keeling over and practically dying.

Phew. I just had to get that off my chest.


I didnt like that change in the storyline either and I tried to rationalize it by the words that Gandalf read on Isildur's scroll. Isildur said that the fate of all those who follow in his bloodline will be tied to the ring. Hence, Aragorn's fate is tied to the ring and also Arwen's since she gave up her life grace to bind her fate to Aragorn's. The problem is, no matter how I try to believe there is logic behind that story twist, it still irks me.

Anyway, I love Arwen's role in the movie and quite frankly, I dont believe we would have been able to see the unsure side of Aragorn. Only when he is with her do we see his frailty because he airs his concerns, doubts, etc to her in private. Otherwise than that, Aragorn seems pretty much together and the only other person who might have known a little about his private aspirations, was Legolas. I deduced that from the manner in which he presented the Evenstar to Aragorn after he returned to Helm's Deep.
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Post RE: Arwen- why her part worked...
on: August 14, 2004 10:42
In TTT, I did find her a little annoying but at the end of RotK, when she and Aragorn kiss, I stopped having hard feelings towards her. She isn't the perfect Arwen, but I think she's aright, and it's not like she ruined the movie in any way.
I like the love triangle thing, because it shows that Aragorn could marry Eowyn, and stay just a ranger, or marry Arwen, and "rise above the height of all his fathers", and become King.

[Edited on 15/8/2004 by _LadyEowyn_]
Celebrianna
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Post RE: Arwen- why her part worked...
on: August 15, 2004 06:58

I like the love triangle thing, because it shows that Aragorn could marry Eowyn, and stay just a ranger, or marry Arwen, and "rise above the height of all his fathers", and become King.


I really did NOT like the love triangle embellishment. I thought it worked negatively toward the character "Arwen" and probably is the direct source to the negativity toward the character. Also, in my humble opinion, there was NO choice laid before Aragorn except to marry Arwen or live a life of solitude both in the movie and the book.

I forgot to add that I love the scene in TTT where Elrond foretold Arwen's future. I felt it was beautifully done by both Liv and Hugo Weaving. Its one of the most poignant scenes in TTT in my humble opinion.
Vale_Undomiel
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Post RE: Arwen- why her part worked...
on: August 16, 2004 07:59
i didnt like the triangle thing either...i mean, at the end of TT and beginnin of ROTK (during the drinking part in meduseld)it looks like aragorn is beginning to like eowyn and forgive arwen which is NOT in the book!i can understand that tehy needed to add that element in the posters for promoting the films (referring to that TT poster with the 3 of them)but then it shouldnt have been like that in the films!

aw i love that foretelling scene as well!i always cry seeing arwen soo sad and lonely....sigh...but Elrond...he is just too rude!!lol!
Celebrianna
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Post RE: Arwen- why her part worked...
on: August 16, 2004 08:38
and beginnin of ROTK (during the drinking part in meduseld)it looks like aragorn is beginning to like eowyn and forgive arwen which is NOT in the book!


Funny VU, I didnt get that from that scene at all. I thought he was being nice to her and that is all. You know that way when a man knows a woman likes him but does not share the same feeling but he respects her so therefore acknowledges her in a respectful way? Thats the way I view that scene. Nothing more. If that is not the case, why is he dreaming about Arwen?

[Edited on 16/8/2004 by Celebrianna]
Vale_Undomiel
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Post RE: Arwen- why her part worked...
on: August 16, 2004 10:42
hey i just realised i wrote "forgive" instead of "forget"!!!!

anyways...back on topic...good point Celebrianna...lol!!i guess i misunderstood the scene!lol!the fact is just that they put too many Aragorn/Eowyn misleading scenes which make ppl think things that are not in the books!lol!like wot happened to me with this one!lol!!(or maybe im just a bit dumb and when i see Aragorn i am even more!lol!)
Annûniel
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Post RE: Arwen- why her part worked...
on: August 17, 2004 02:30
I noticed that too, Vale. Aragorn did seem to be a bit more "intrigued" by Eowyn than he was in the books. But its more realistic I think. When someone's interested in you, its hard not to consider the possibility. Unless I'm just wierd. Aragorn was still as devoted to Arwen as he ever was though.

Oh, and Vale, you can never truly "misinterpret" any scene b/c what matters is what *you* got from it. So you can never be wrong! At least not in the case of interpretations...
Vale_Undomiel
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Post RE: Arwen- why her part worked...
on: August 17, 2004 05:55
thanks Luthien03...wot got me think about Aragorn being "intrigued" (thats the word i meant the other time but couldnt find it!)by Eowyn was that kinda smile and the way he kinda stares at her which he didnt use to do in TTT...but once more that was just interpretation...maybe when the EE finally comes out we will discover what they really meant...or maybe not...who knows!
Celebrianna
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Post RE: Arwen- why her part worked...
on: August 17, 2004 10:52
Luthien03 is correct. Its what you get from the scene and I did not get that. I think Aragorn noticed that she liked him from that scene in the TTT extended version when she came to him requesting his influence so that she could fight. However, the look he gave her convinced me that he was not "interested" in that way.

However, it is a very much "subjective" interpretation. Just like others thought that he flirted too much with her in TTT. I dont neccessarily share that feeling.
Vale_Undomiel
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Post RE: Arwen- why her part worked...
on: August 17, 2004 11:19
i dont think he was really flirting in TTT but maybe they shouldnt have put that scene after Helms Deep where he goes to Eowyn and she hugs him...i mean....i dont know..it just didnt fit too well with all the Rivendell flashback thingy earlier on...but thats it for TTT.

[Edited on 18/8/2004 by Vale_Undomiel]
Annûniel
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Post RE: Arwen- why her part worked...
on: August 17, 2004 12:13
I could understand the hug. After a long hard battle, she's just happy to see him alive. They might have gone a bit overboard with her placing her hand on his cheek, but I could understand her feelings at that moment.
Vale_Undomiel
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Post RE: Arwen- why her part worked...
on: August 18, 2004 07:14
anyway i think i shouldnt complain too much cos i also saw a pic where it was Aragorn with his hands on Eowyn's cheeks and thanks god THIS one didnt make it to the films!!!!
maybe i shouldnt be so harsh against Eowyn and try to understand her a lil bit more after all...
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