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RosieT
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Post For Frodo.....
on: February 25, 2004 10:28
I don't know if I'm slow on the uptake, or else remarkably astute.

I've loved the way Aragorn says "For Frodo..." and heads off into battle, from the minute I first saw/heard it. I just assumed that it was following on from the plan to give Frodo more time.

But I now have a feeling that he didn't mean it like that at all - I'm wondering if he actually meant it to be in memory of Frodo, because in the EE we may well see the Mouth of Sauron with Frodo's mithril vest.......when Aragorn says "For Frodo" it could be because he thinks he's dead.
astra_celestine
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Post RE: For Frodo.....
on: February 25, 2004 11:41
Rosie, this is an interesting aspect. This makes sense, if the scene with the Mouth of Sauron is to be shown in the EE.

But I think that Aragorn wouldn´t have sacrificed so many lives, when he knew that there wasn´t any hope. As a leader he certainly is aware of his responsability for the soldiers.

For me "For Frodo" means that Aragorn was quite sure, that he sacrificed his and the others´ lives in order to help Frodo or to die with him (as there would not be any hope for Middle Earth in case that Frodo failed).

I hope I could make my point clear - I am afraid my English isn´t that good.
RosieT
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Post RE: For Frodo.....
on: February 25, 2004 12:50
I think if Aragorn thought that Sauron had the ring, or was likely to get it in the very near future, all those lives were already lost, either to death or a life of hell. And Aragorn was going to take a few orcs with him.......and you'll notice he went alone, followed by Merry and Pippin, then the rest of the army. He didn't tell his men to follow him.
Orchrist
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Post RE: For Frodo.....
on: February 25, 2004 01:27
I'm assuming The Mouth of Sauron is in the EE, I always thought that the reason Aragorn said that was because they were shown Frodos' cloak and mithril coat and believed he was dead. Therefore they made a last desperate charge believing they were going to die, and taking as many enemies as they could with them.
RosieT
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Post RE: For Frodo.....
on: February 25, 2004 01:51
I'm assuming The Mouth of Sauron is in the EE, I always thought that the reason Aragorn said that was because they were shown Frodos' cloak and mithril coat and believed he was dead. Therefore they made a last desperate charge believing they were going to die, and taking as many enemies as they could with them.


That's your nice way of confirming that I'm slow on the uptake then.
Roheryn
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Post RE: For Frodo.....
on: February 25, 2004 02:28
I had wondered about this too. For the theatrical audience that doesn't know about the mithril shirt, Mouth of Sauron, etc. his 'For Frodo' is an act first of all, of defiance - he rejects the calling of his name by the enemy, and secondly, it shows his commitment to aid Frodo to the very end.

In the EE it is the same thing perhaps with the added uncertainty as to whether Frodo is dead or not given the evidence of his capture. But I think Aragorn will still be pretty sure Sauron doesn't yet have the Ring, (if he had it he would not have bothered with sending out his envoy he would simply have crushed Aragorn and his forces) and that therefore somehow there is still a chance for Frodo and for Middle Earth.

I love that line, it takes me back to the old 'Frodo Lives' sentiment.
cester
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Post RE: For Frodo.....
on: February 25, 2004 10:40
I have to admit that I never considered the "for Frodo" line in this aspect. I've always thought that when Aragorn hears Sauron calling him, he kind of remembers when he last talked to Frodo at the end of FotR, just before he let him go. At that time, the same voice was calling to him (from the ring, but that is no difference). It wanted him to take the wrong choice, to take the ring. Here, at this last stand, after all of his deeds, he hears the same calling, and feels it seeking to corrupt him. And, resisting it, he recalls that other time, remembers Frodo once again.

Well, it might be just me. I hope I make sense.
Rebecca_C
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Post RE: For Frodo.....
on: February 26, 2004 02:51
That was one of the things I love about Aragorn, his loyalty. He started the journey for Frodo and won't let it come to an end without doing all he can.
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Post RE: For Frodo.....
on: February 26, 2004 11:46
I hope that in the EE the 'mithril vest' is shown as this could be what Aragon means by 'For Frodo', but also isn't the battle supposed to be a diversion to take the eye of Sauron away from seeing that Frodo is trying to destroy the ring. So perhaps that's what Aragorn is saying. This is 'For Frodo', so that he can finish his mission.
Aredhel_ArFeiniel
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Post RE: For Frodo.....
on: February 26, 2004 01:21
I'm sure the Mouth of Sauron scene will be in the EE(I've seen pics) so yes, I am assuming Aragorn and the others have just seen the things he brings to show them. They would all believe Frodo was captured, and because the terms are rejected, that he is possibly condemned to death(or suffering and death) therefore, the beautiful line, 'For Frodo!!!!!!!!'
I love it!!!!!!!!!
luvlijah
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Post RE: For Frodo.....
on: February 26, 2004 01:33
Hhmm... I always kind of assumed that when he said "For Frodo!" that he meant like "Give Frodo courage!" or "In Frodo's memory!" or simply just "For Frodo!" Lol
RosieT
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Post RE: For Frodo.....
on: February 26, 2004 01:34
I hope that in the EE the 'mithril vest' is shown as this could be what Aragon means by 'For Frodo', but also isn't the battle supposed to be a diversion to take the eye of Sauron away from seeing that Frodo is trying to destroy the ring. So perhaps that's what Aragorn is saying. This is 'For Frodo', so that he can finish his mission.


That was the original plan - until the Mouth of Sauron presented the mithril vest.

Now Aragorn believes that Frodo is dead, or at least captured. He knows the enemy doesn't have the ring or he would have presented himself in physical form - but Aragorn would imagine it to be only a matter of time.

When he says "For Frodo..", it isn't like a battle cry. There's none of the passion of his Henry V type speech. It's just quiet and sadly spoken.

hobbithole_dweller
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Post RE: For Frodo.....
on: July 12, 2004 07:47
Wow, i never thought about it that way before. I always thought the it was as a distraction for Frodo. But it is true that the mouth of sauron scene happens before the battle.

Hmmm...it's hard to say. Now that I think about it, I think it's in memory of Frodo, since everyone really did think he died when the lieutenant showed them Frodo's clothes. Great thing to think about though...
vaya
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Post RE: For Frodo.....
on: July 13, 2004 05:36
I think if Aragorn thought that Sauron had the ring, or was likely to get it in the very near future, all those lives were already lost, either to death or a life of hell. And Aragorn was going to take a few orcs with him.......and you'll notice he went alone, followed by Merry and Pippin, then the rest of the army. He didn't tell his men to follow him.


iirc from the books, it was actually calling Sauron's Bluff.

I think what it was was that Sauron had teh mithril shirt and various other Frodo stuff, and was trying to make it out that they had Frodo, and that he was being held hostage, go home or we kill the halfling.

But no mention was made of the ring, so Aragorn decided that he must be bluffing, and went on with the attack.
RosieT
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Post RE: For Frodo.....
on: July 13, 2004 07:24
I think what it was was that Sauron had teh mithril shirt and various other Frodo stuff, and was trying to make it out that they had Frodo, and that he was being held hostage, go home or we kill the halfling.

But no mention was made of the ring, so Aragorn decided that he must be bluffing, and went on with the attack.


Well possibly, but I think by the way Aragorn spoke - the sadness in his voice - he thought Frodo was dead, or would soon be. He knew any attack was futile, but wasn't going to just give up, and he planned to kill a few in Frodo's honour. I don't think they would take any notice of "or else we'll kill the halfling" as that would suggest that they were capable of keeping a promise.

Frodo's capture would have ensured his death. Aragorn knew this, and believing him to be captured, just wanted to take a few more orcs out before being killed himself, as they would have been if the mission failed.
atheniel_
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Post RE: For Frodo.....
on: July 14, 2004 01:10
Thats really interesting. i didnt think of those words that way, but I would have to agree that the Mouth of Sauron is probably going to be in the EE. actually when i read the book i thought it was sort of a vital bit, as it sorta tests the loyalty of Aragorn and the others after learning the quest might possibly have failed, as well as a sort of obstacle in the story, and i was really sure it was going to be in the theatrical version.
Now that i think of it, it was probably in memory of Frodo, but with a tinsy hint of hope, knowing the enemy had ways of deceiving them and there was a small chance it wasnt true even though the 'proof' was plain to see.

my weird insights But anyway, carry on.
metafiziclywinklefwee
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Post RE: For Frodo.....
on: July 15, 2004 06:57
i didnt read all the reply cause i dont have a lot of time so sorry if this has already been sain but thats an interesting point... aragorn could have also said for frodo because frodo sacrificed so much for them and if he thinks that frodo couldnt accomplish his mission.. he is leading the last stand in his honour so that, either way, it is frodo that would have won... am i making any sense? i hope so...
Woodlandelfgirl87
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Post RE: For Frodo.....
on: July 16, 2004 06:54
I never thought about this either. I always assumed that when Aragorn said, "For Frodo" he meant that this was to give Frodo a chance to destroy the ring and to show his loyalty to him. I never took the Mouth of Sauron into consideration before, but since it might be in the EE, then I think Aragorn is saying "For Frodo" now because it was all they could do now since he "died," and they were doing this for him as a last thing. By the way, when is the EE coming out? November?
AranelOfLorien
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Post RE: For Frodo.....
on: July 16, 2004 07:06
I really don't know. But I'll play it safe and I'm going to say that it quite possibly could be a little bit of both. Afterall, isn't it al just "for frodo.."?
Elioclya
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Post RE: For Frodo.....
on: May 09, 2005 11:24
I think it's just for Frodo - whether he's dead or alive, whether to honour his memory and attempt to avenge his death, or to help him in his mission... I would guess this very argument is an indication of the uncertainty they must all have been feeling.

Now that the Extended Edition is out, does anyone have any new insights?!
Ilfa
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Post RE: For Frodo.....
on: May 09, 2005 09:24
Hey that's quite interesting, I never thought of it as an argument. Anyway, I think it means alot for me:
~For him to finish his mission which is to be with and protect Frodo.:heart:
~For the Eye of Sauron not to see Frodo while destroting the ring.
~Or for Frodo's possible death, sacrifice for the people...
But I think more of the Eye of Sauron not to be near Frodo so that Frodo will destroy the ring without any possible disaster, and I think he trust Frodo, the kind of trusts that he will never think of Frodo will be a failure.
RosieT
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Post RE: For Frodo.....
on: May 09, 2005 09:38
Well I think my conclusion for this topic proved correct! Aragorn said he didn't believe MoS, but the sadness in his face when he speaks that line shows that he knows it is most likely to be the "truth" and Frodo has died. It isn't a rousing "For Frodo" like his earlier speech - it's quiet and sad.
Pervy_Sméagol_Lover
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Post RE: For Frodo.....
on: May 09, 2005 11:18
hi! yeah i think it is to give Frodo more time because Aragorn cuts of the mouth of saurons head and say 'i don't belive it, i will not belive it!' or something to that point.
hobbitnamedeliza
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Post RE: For Frodo.....
on: May 11, 2005 07:10
I think that statement works either way...no matter what they wanted to believe about Frodo, common sense must have told them that the chances of ANY of them making it out of there alive were pretty slim...I think that, dead or alive, Frodo (and the quest) was the reason they were all there in that dreadful place; and I think Aragorn wanted that to be their battle-cry, their last thought--Their Sacred Reason for being there.
ice_saffire
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Post RE: For Frodo.....
on: May 26, 2005 02:26
hey i think that it is to give hime time to get across the river and away from the orgs, also that he believe that frodo would do it and take the ring to mordor and destroy it.
he had faith in frodo and knew that it could happen i guess well that is what i think anyway.



[Edited on 27/5/2005 by ice_saffire]
Failië
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Post RE: For Frodo.....
on: May 28, 2005 02:58
I'm quite sure he believed Frodo alive. First off, I think that if Sauron had the ring then everyone would know it...I mean wouldn't he be solid form again instead of an eye?

And if you look at the regular addition it means that he's trying to help Frodo...so I took it into the same context in the Extended Edition.

Any one else got anything?
fbc
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Post RE: For Frodo.....
on: May 29, 2005 08:44
It's possible it's meant that way.
Failië
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Post RE: For Frodo.....
on: May 30, 2005 03:35
While it's possible, it's not that logical.
Lweven
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Post RE: For Frodo.....
on: May 30, 2005 12:56
I think he meant it as in, a friend way. Any of the Fellowship memebers would have done anything for the other. He believed in Frodo, and wanted him to live and destroy the ring, that is why they went to the black gates. He was serious, and willing to die for him.
Failië
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Post RE: For Frodo.....
on: May 31, 2005 01:59
Yes, but what about the Mouth of Sauron?

Did he still think Frodo was alive...or not?
Lweven
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Post RE: For Frodo.....
on: May 31, 2005 11:37
Yes,I think, in their hearts they knew he wouldn't die. I mean, when you see something with your eyes, or hear it with your ears and it seems so devistating, do you give up, and say he's dead...he has to be. Or you you say he must be alive, he cannot die. Their hearts fell when that happened yes, but they couldn't believe it. I think even if he would have died they would have still, said in their minds, it can't be. Thats how some deal with death, and its happening. And you must remember no tidings of Sam being with him was told, and Sam is cunning, they all knew that. He wouldn't let anything happen to Frodo.

[Edited on 31/5/2005 by Lweven]
Failië
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Post RE: For Frodo.....
on: June 01, 2005 05:36
Yes,I think, in their hearts they knew he wouldn't die. I mean, when you see something with your eyes, or hear it with your ears and it seems so devistating, do you give up, and say he's dead...he has to be. Or you you say he must be alive, he cannot die. Their hearts fell when that happened yes, but they couldn't believe it. I think even if he would have died they would have still, said in their minds, it can't be. Thats how some deal with death, and its happening. And you must remember no tidings of Sam being with him was told, and Sam is cunning, they all knew that. He wouldn't let anything happen to Frodo.

[Edited on 31/5/2005 by Lweven]


Agreed.

Besides, the evil enemy is known to lie and shouldn't be trusted.
Lweven
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Post RE: For Frodo.....
on: June 02, 2005 09:37
Yes, the enemy does lie. And by the mouth of Sauron saying those things about Frodo, he wanted to hear their sorrow, and see what they knew. Ofcourse it is how ever you take it, and an opionion.
Sam_Gamgee
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Post RE: For Frodo.....
on: June 02, 2005 12:57
When I first saw this subject I thought that it might have something to do with how he forgets about Sam... would it hurt the dialogue that much to say "For Frodo and Sam!" LOL i suppose it would, I am just being picky.

As for the real topic, that is a good question. In the theatrical version it would definitely seem as he means to buy Frodo and Sam more time to accomplish their task. But the question is raised when the extended version comes out with the mouth of Sauron saying that they have the hobbit duo captive.

You certainly could take it either way, but maybe he saw through the Sauron's deception and knew still in his heart that Frodo and Sam are still allive. If you remember Aragorn telling Gandalf "what does your heart tell you" when Gandalf fears for Frodo and Sam's quest into Mordor.
TinaHalfelven
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Post RE: For Frodo.....
on: June 02, 2005 04:17
I think that may be why they cut out the Mouth of Sauron in the theatrical edition, well that and the confusion of some audience members possibly.
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