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atalante_star
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Post RE: Life after death
on: April 30, 2004 07:02
What we are talking about in this thread, Naredhil, is the creation of beings - not just any old creation. The Valar *cannot* truly create beings. That is the entire point to the story of Morgoth

Of course they can create objects - there's no big deal in that. What they *cannot* do is create life.

You mention the dwarves. The way you have put the tale isn't correct. Aüle made their bodies and a semblance of life, Ilúvatar gave them true life:

And the voice of Ilúvatar said to him: "Why hast thou done this [made the Dwarves]? Why dost thou attempt a thing which thou knowest is beyond thy power and thy authority? For thou hast from me as a gift thy own being only, and no more; and therefore the creatures of thy hand and mind can live only by that being, moving when thou thinkest to move them, and if thy thought be elsewhere, standing idle."


Remind anyone of the orcs????

[Edited on 1/5/2004 by atalante_star]
IsildursHeir
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Post RE: Life after death
on: May 19, 2004 07:16
This might be a little late and a little off topic, but when Valinor was still "tangible", if you could sail a ship there and arrive at the Halls of Mandos, would you see the spirits of the dead?
skaterelf
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Post RE: Life after death
on: May 20, 2004 03:32
I've herd from many people that once someone leaves to go to the undying lands they never return.

But if this is true how/why does cirdan the shipwright keep returning to middle earth. I thought that he sailed from the undying lands to middle earth and back and forth bringing people to "Heaven".
atalante_star
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Post RE: Life after death
on: May 20, 2004 04:11
I've herd from many people that once someone leaves to go to the undying lands they never return.

But if this is true how/why does cirdan the shipwright keep returning to middle earth. I thought that he sailed from the undying lands to middle earth and back and forth bringing people to "Heaven".


Cirdan doesn't go back and forth, he lives in the Grey Havens, where elves set out from Middle-earth to go to Valinor.
IsildursHeir
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Post RE: Life after death
on: May 20, 2004 05:18
I think Cirdan basically makes ships for people to sail to Valinor. He doesn't go himself. I think there was a quote that said he would leave with the last ship to Valinor. That was the ship carrying Elrond, Galadriel, Gandalf, Bilbo, Frodo, Shadowfax, and maybe some others.
atalante_star
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Post RE: Life after death
on: May 20, 2004 06:32
I think Cirdan basically makes ships for people to sail to Valinor. He doesn't go himself. I think there was a quote that said he would leave with the last ship to Valinor. That was the ship carrying Elrond, Galadriel, Gandalf, Bilbo, Frodo, Shadowfax, and maybe some others.


That the Ringbearers ship was the last ship is open to question There's some discussion on that topic earlier on in the thread.
arvegil
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Post RE: Life after death
on: May 20, 2004 06:34
I think Cirdan basically makes ships for people to sail to Valinor. He doesn't go himself. I think there was a quote that said he would leave with the last ship to Valinor. That was the ship carrying Elrond, Galadriel, Gandalf, Bilbo, Frodo, Shadowfax, and maybe some others.


While Tolkien went both ways on that point, it is pretty clear in the LOTR prologue that he contemplated more ships leaving in the Fourth Age. Specifically, he referenced Celeborn taking a later ship.
LadyEowyn_Of_Rohan
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Post RE: Life after death
on: May 22, 2004 03:49
I think Cirdan basically makes ships for people to sail to Valinor. He doesn't go himself. I think there was a quote that said he would leave with the last ship to Valinor. That was the ship carrying Elrond, Galadriel, Gandalf, Bilbo, Frodo, Shadowfax, and maybe some others.
Wait- Shadowfax? I don't remember him...
atalante_star
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Post RE: Life after death
on: May 22, 2004 04:09
Wait- Shadowfax? I don't remember him...


He's not actually shown in the books as going West. But that is what Tolkien intended - he talks about it in Letters.

I think Shadowfax certainly went with Gandalf [across the Sea], though this is not stated. (Letters #26


[Edited on 22/5/2004 by atalante_star]
LadyEowyn_Of_Rohan
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Post RE: Life after death
on: June 13, 2004 03:10
*suddenly feels very upset Théoden didn't get his horse back*

Sauron was reduced into barely more than nothing after the destruction of the Ring, right? What would have happened if he put all his power into the Ring? Would he have been completely destroyed? Can a Maia die? (Hope I didn't miss something really obvious somewhere)
atalante_star
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Post RE: Life after death
on: June 13, 2004 10:29
*suddenly feels very upset Théoden didn't get his horse back*


I think he might be a little upset with Snowmane Seriously, though, how do we know he didn't - in spirit if nothing else? We know so little about the afterlife of Men, and even less about the afterlife of horses

Sauron was reduced into barely more than nothing after the destruction of the Ring, right? What would have happened if he put all his power into the Ring? Would he have been completely destroyed? Can a Maia die? (Hope I didn't miss something really obvious somewhere)


If he had put *all* his power into the Ring, then yes, I think he would have ceased to exist - all least on the material plane.

Can a Maia die? Well .... depends what you mean by die

Sauron "died", Saruman "died" - their essence was scattered so greatly around Arda that the likelihood that they could ever reform a physical body was very small. But their essence remained, forever bodiless and ineffectual.

Whether the essence of a Maia (or Vala for that) could ever vanish completely from Arda - I would say not. Its the same with elves - only the souls of men are not actually tied to the world.
arvegil
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Post RE: Life after death
on: June 16, 2004 10:52
There is a passage in one of the later "History" series (Vol. XI?) which discusses what would happen to the spirit of a bad Maia. They exist, but powerless. In theory, they could come to the Halls of Mandos and ask for a pardon, but none of them seem to have the capacity to do so, as they are set in their ways.
ladyAredhel
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Post RE: Life after death
on: August 17, 2004 10:55

right this is a question about Arwen after she died did she go to the place where all other dead elves go and just get reborn because it wasn't like she made a deal like luthiento live once more with beren and never return. Arwen just died
Eressëa
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Post RE: Life after death
on: August 18, 2004 03:03
Since Arwen chose to become mortal her fate was most likely that of other mortals -she most likely went somewhere beyond the confines of the world and her later fate will probably be that of other mortals as well -though we have little knowledge of it
Hareth
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Post RE: Life after death
on: September 03, 2004 06:11
Since the end of the world hasn't come yet, is it possible that the last ship hasn't sailed? Could there be elves among us that haven't become weary of this world?

Could we, somehow, be collective keepers of the Red Book?
LadyEowyn_Of_Rohan
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Post RE: Life after death
on: September 04, 2004 04:33
That's an interesting theory, but I don't think so - they elves who didn't go to Aman faded: Their body (hröa)eventually disappeared, leaving nothing but a spirit (fëa), so there are probably Elves still "among us", but not able to sail.
Elven_Light
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Post RE: Life after death
on: January 14, 2005 08:52
He would have built his ship himself anyway and taken the same route since the Bay of Belfalas was nearer to him, and Aman for that matter, than the Grey Havens were.


Someone had said that somewhere in page 1 which is different than what i thought..

I thought the grey havens and Aman where the same place or linked together. If there are differnt places then does that mean Elves end up in differen't lands depending on the location they sailed Middle Earth from?

And since i read someone say that Legolas and Gimli went to Aman (which is a different place then the grey havens) then they are not in the same place as the Ring Bearers? (since they sailed into the grey havens right?)

And if thats true then how does Gimli go see Galadrial?

Can someone please help me clear this up!:cry:
LadyEowyn_Of_Rohan
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Post RE: Life after death
on: January 15, 2005 06:00
Here's a very, very, hasty and simple map of Middle-earth and Aman. It just shows where things are, not how they really look; if you want to see how they look, check out the Maps section of the Gallery. Apologies for the blurriness, the site I uploaded the picture to did that.
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Middle-earth is the continent that LotR takes place on, where everyone lives. The blue dot shows the Grey Havens. It's a spot on Middle-earth where the ships leave from, not the destination they go to. The Bay of Belfalas, where Legolas and Gimli sailed from, is really farther south and west; it's another spot on Middle-earth that a ship can leave from.

Aman is another continent, where the Elves go. Tol Eressëa is an island near Aman. All of the Elves, including Galadriel, Elrond, and everyone on the last ship, plus Legolas and Gimli, went there. They all sailed from Middle-earth to Tol Eressëa, but they left from different spots. The Grey Havens and the Bay of Belfalas were just different places in Middle-earth to leave.
clarinetist4life
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Post RE: Life after death
on: January 29, 2005 03:41
question: this may seem a little stupid but does the fellowship ever get back together in death or due to some going to the undying lands ands others different places do they never see each other again and thats the end?
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: Life after death
on: January 30, 2005 06:09
They could never get back together. The souls of men(hobbits also as they are considered an offshoot of the race of men) and elves go to different places after the deaths of the bodies. the fëa of the elves are gathered togather and generally can be reborn but the elves do not know what happens to, and have never seen, the souls of men.
Dwarves are a different matter altogether as they were not designed by iluvatar and their souls, if they have any, also do not go anywhere that is known. Dwarves also believe inreincarnation, at least in certain cases, as they were of a mind that Durin (the Deathless) kept being reborn. Each Durin was so like the original that the were sure that he had been reborn.
______________-
an afterthought;
I guess that they could all get together when all are gathered together for the Last Battle and the Day of Doom, but I don't think that is what you were looking for.
atalante_star
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Post RE: Life after death
on: January 30, 2005 06:23
Dwarves are a different matter altogether as they were not designed by iluvatar and their souls, if they have any, also do not go anywhere that is known.

Though dwarves themselves believe that there is a separate hall in the Halls of Mandos for the dwarves, where Aulë will gather his children back to him.
High_King_Of_Noldor
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Post RE: Life after death
on: February 13, 2005 04:41
dwarves beleive that they have halls set aside for them in mandos by aule where they will await and help him remake arda after the last battle. the spirits of men await the second music of the ainur, in which they will take part. the fate of elves is unknown. turin will fight in the dagor dagorath,the last battle, where melkor break back into arda and all the people of arda will gather for the last battle. in that battle Tulkas will fight melkor, with eonwe on his right side and turin on his left, but it will be turin who strikes the death blow to melkor, if this takes part before the second music it will mean turin being resurrected to take part
Nienna-of-the-Valar
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Post RE: Life after death
on: May 04, 2005 02:51
Those who do not believe are 'wicked'. That's the way it works with my faith, anyway, and Tolkien was a Christian so his 'gods' most likely reflect the God of Christianity.

I don't agree with this at all. Those who do not 'believe' are automatically considered wicked? I'm sorry, but that is just...well I won't say what it is. I will just say that I do not agree. And you cannot say that Tolkien's Gods would 'most likely' have been _anything_. Sorry.

What, or who, is 'wicked' is not left up to us to decide. There is a quite poignant scene in both the book and the movies where it is questioned whether a man of the south (who was fighting against the people of Gondor, the Rangers of the South in particular) was really a wicked man at heart. Every person, who chooses a side on which to fight, believes that the side they have chosen is right and just. How can you then classify such a person as 'wicked'? People can be fooled by others who hold positions of power, so are only those who hold power wicked or would also everyone who follows them be?

You see, there is a very fine line and there are always circumstances that have led each person to a decision and a behavior. Therefore, how can anyone (especially those men of whom I assume you are speaking) be considered really and truly 'wicked', or 'evil' for that matter?

Also, I'm sure that I read somewhere that Men also go to the Halls of Mandos, but that they go there to a separate place to where Elves do. There Mandos judges them as well, and then it is left to him to decide what their fate might be, which we will _never_ know, because _no one_ knows what the eventual fate of any Man will be. No one knows if there is a hell or a heaven or anything of the sort for the Race of Men in Tolkien's works.
gil_galad_king
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Post RE: Life after death
on: May 04, 2005 04:23
There is no heaven or hell for the race of Men in tolkien's world. After death, the souls of Men go to the Halls of Illuvatar. Yes i agree that Illuvatar does not judge their deeds on earth but neither does Mandos, because neither Mandos, nor any of the Valar, for that matter has contact whatsoever with the souls of Men. No wonder its a Gift of Illuvatar, escape from judgement and the circles of the world.

Thats my theory
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Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: Life after death
on: May 04, 2005 08:29
In the published Silmarillion, this is said about the fate of Men after death:
What may befall their spirits after death the Elves know not. Some say that they too go to the Halls of Mandos; but their place of waiting there is not that of the Elves, and Mandos under Ilúvatar alone save Manwë knows whither they go after the time of recollection in those silent halls beside the Outer Sea. (...) The fate of Men after death, maybe, is not in the hands of the Valar, nor was all foretold in the Music of Ainur.

The idea about the spirits of Men spending some time in their own department of the Halls of Mandos before leaving the circles of the world for good is already present in the early versions in The Book of Lost Tales 1 and, in the short time I had at my hands, that was all of it I could find in the HoME books. And indeed, the story of Beren and Lúthien is in accordance with this.

And, although Eru is supposed to be the Christian God, it is clear that in the Middle-earth of these stories, the conceptions of Heaven and Hell according to Christianity aren't valid.
Kaur
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Post RE: Life after death
on: May 23, 2005 08:50
Elvish Philosophy of Death and Incarnation

Of their fate after life the Elves know much, because of their long staying in Valinor and of what they learned there from the Valar. Concerning Men the most lore on their afterlife are speculations, since Men have never got in touch with the Valar in any greater degree.

The fate of the Elves: The Elves see themselves as two different parts: the Fëa (spirit) and the Hroa (body). The two parts are not bound to each other, but without the Hroa, the Fea is powerless, and with no spirit, the body is dead and will soon dissolve.

The life-span of the Elves is by nature the same as that of the world (although they are often called immortal, which is a totally different thing). But the Elves call earth "Arda Sahta", the Marred World. Within its borders, nothing can be uninfluenced by Melkor, and Elves and Men, who are made of Arda's matter, are all likely to suffer in some way.

Thus the elvish Fëa tend to "consume" the Hroa, until all that is left of it is a vague shape and it is indeed indestructable. Also, the Elves may die of grief or wounds (but not by disease) and then the Fëa will leave the Hroa. Then the "houseless" Fëa will be summoned to the Halls of Mandos, and it may go there of its own free will. Most Fëa do this, but those who have been influenced by Melkor and are corrupt often dread the punishment they will receive in Mandos and stay in Middle-earth, trying to take over some other Hroa that already contains a Fëa. Those who follow the summons may, if they wish, be incarnated in a new-born body, identical to the previous. The others stay in Mandos until the end of the world. For the Elves are bound to the world, and cannot leave it. All Fëar, whatever way they choose, must wait in Mandos for a time; how long depends on the invidual. If the Fëa has done evil in its previous life it must often wait longer until allowed to return to life. But sometimes it has to stay for good. Fëanor was for instance never allowed to leave Mandos.

The reborn Elf is in all ways a child again, and does not remember its previous life until its experience and knowledge has grown. Then its life becomes double rich, since it has experienced two childhoods and has memories from two lives. There are few cases where an Elf has been reincarnated more than once. The reason for this is unknown. There are no documented examples of reincarnated Elves except, perhaps, Glorfindel of Gondolin who may have been reborn in the Second Age and helped Frodo and company to Rivendell. But it is not definitely established that the two Glorfindels are one.

The fate of Men: Men are not, contrary to the Elves, "bound to the world." They have by Eru been granted a special gift: death. When Men die, thy go to the Halls of Mandos but do not stay there for long. They proceed away from the world and leave its borders, to which fate no-one knows. This has become a dread among Men, since they do not know what will follow.

This dread is brought to them by Melkor; the Elves, who are bound to live on until the world's end, cannot understand this fear of Eru's gift. Some Men claim that they are not mortal by nature, but that it has been caused by Melkor. (The Elves, though, do not beleive this, since they do not think Melkor has the power to change the fate of a whole race.) This is based on an old legend that can be considered the story of the "fall" of mankind.

Before any Men had yet died, Eru spoke to them and told them he would watch over them and help them if the needed him. But when they later asked him things, he would more often urge them to find the answers for themselves and enjoy the finding.

Then Melkor appeared among them in a beautiful shape and told them that he would help them and give them much knowledge if they took him to lead them. He gave them many gifts and tought them much lore and they would start fearing for a life without him. Then they spoke of Eru, whom they had only heard as a voice. This made Melkor wrathful, and he said Eru was the Darkness that wished to devour them. Then he went away. After a long time of grief and poverty a darkness came over the world and blotted out the sun.

Then Melkor came back shining like a torch, and they bowed before him. Men built a temple for Melkor, and swore him their service. A long time they served him, but now he rarely gave out gifts or advice, or they had to pay for it with a gift or some evil deed.

Eru did not speak to them again, but once, when he said Men had abandoned him: but they were still his subjects. Therefore he would shorten their lives, and let them come to him and learn who was their true lord. After that, some started dying, and Men went to Melkor for help. But Melkor did not hide his plans any longer. He told them that they should obey him or he would slay them. In time he started rewarding those that served him the best, which often were those who were the most cruel to others. Some Men started talking against him openly, but those he let put to death by fire in his temple.

The legend ends saying that some Men flew and came to the sea, and found the Enemy there before them.

References:

The History of Middle-earth Vol. 10, The later Quenta Silmarillion: Laws and Customs among the Eldar

The History of Middle-earth Vol. 10, The later Quenta Silmarillion: of Finwe and Miriel

The Silmarillion, Of the Return of the Noldor

The History of Middle-earth Vol. 10, Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth.
arelenriel
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Post RE: Life after death
on: August 24, 2006 06:17
re; answer to the question " Is the last ship that sailed the one the Ringbearers were on?" No it is not that is a myth that has been primarily perpetrated by PJ's movie. Somewhere in one of the books though I cannot remember which one or where it does say tha the Valar gave Elladan and Elrohir special permission to remain in Arda until the Last Ship sailed. Also Celeborn and Cirdan remained as well as Legolas and Thranduil. One would assume that since in the books Cirdan, Celeborn, Elrond's sons, and Thranduil do not sail with the Ringbearers Party that they sail at some later date during the 4th age. This would especially hold true as these 5 characters would be responsible for ensuring the safe passage of any elves remainiing in Arda after 4th age year 4. We know how Legolas travels to the Undying Lands. It is left an open question as far as I have read in HOME as to when and where the others depart from. Celeborn remained with his grandchildren so one might assume he and the twins departed when Arwen died, and that Thranduil went with them. And also it does mention in Lost Tales 1 that some elves chose to remain in Arda bt that they diminished or faded. It is mentioned when Eriol wishes to know about the differing languages of the elves and is told that the ancient separations in the elven languages have become integrated except in the East where the last wandering companies remain "til the magic sun is rekindled." So some elves do remain after the Fourth Age but are basically nno longer seen by men.
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on: May 31, 2014 02:29
This is definitely worth re-reading ...
Gandolorin
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Post RE: Life after death
on: June 01, 2014 12:39
Náredhil said:sorry but i'm gonna have to contradict you atalante,
Valar = they aren't subcreators. Not really. Only Ilúvatar can create. The Valar can ask him to create for them.


Here I must contradict you, Náredhil. There is a definite difference between creator and subcreators (as JRRT considered himself to be one).

The Ainur (including Melkor) participated in the first Music. As Eru said, even Melkor's dissonances had their ultimate source in Eru. Nothing the Valar did (including Aulë's creation of the Dwarves) was NOT in the Music. The one thing that NONE of the Valar (with the vaguely possible exception of Mandos and Manwë) had any notion of was the Eruhini, the children of Eru, both Elves and Men. Was the Valar's war on Melkor before they led the Elves to Valinor right? Was their hiding behind the Mountains of Aman after Melkor's escape from Valinor after destroying the Two Trees and the Noldor's (Feanor's) rebellion right? (Leaving Men at Melkor's mercy much more than they did the Elves, never mind the possible creation of Orcs out of captured Elves)?
Memory fails, but perhaps the Music told much less about Men that it did about Elves ...
One thing remains: in LotR, I remember it stated that the difference between good and evil is that evil cannot imagine what it would be like to be good (Sauron's for him fatal flaw). Then what's wrong with Manwë??? Some of the other Valar (Tulkas, but not he alone) distrust Melkor very much. How can Manwë be so blind?
Decades between the writing of the two stories - hard to get them consistent with one another ...

[Edited on 06/01/2014 by Gandolorin]
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