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WhiteDragonfly
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Post Arwen and Aragorn's "Loving" Realtionship
on: May 14, 2004 05:09
Based on the movie, I really do not understand why Arwen and Aragorn are so in love. What do they see in each other? I just don't understand why Arwen would die for him and why she would mope around and cry for him all of the time. It's like Arwen would give up anything for him and he's not even worth it. Are they just attracted to each other for no reason? If they were then they are not really in love.

Someone please explain this to me.
ViggoBliggo
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Post RE: Arwen and Aragorn's "Loving" Realtionship
on: May 15, 2004 03:01
Umm.....have you ever loved someone?
vaya
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Post RE: Arwen and Aragorn's "Loving" Realtionship
on: May 15, 2004 03:16
The book talks about it more, at least in the appendices (the actual story barely mentions it which left me rather confused) they had met long time ago and it was love at first sight, yadda yadda yadda...

The movies are long enough without sticking all that in there...

I don't know what you want from the movie to drive the nail in further that these two are in love....or maybe it's because you wanted Aragorn and Eowyn together?
morwen_steelsheen
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Post RE: Arwen and Aragorn's "Loving" Realtionship
on: May 15, 2004 07:15
First of all, I´d love to see Aragorn and Éowyn together so I am aware that my ideas have certain bias.
But here the topic is Aragorn and Arwen. I think that Tolkien´s idea of love was quite special. I read somewhere (don´t know if it´s true) that in his and his wife´s tomb the inscription refers to Beren and Luthien. This is another love story (very beautiful indeed) between a mortal man and an elf. The first time Aragorn sees Arwen, he is singinig a song about them, and he thinks Arwen is a vision of Luthien.
To me, Tolkien thought that women are perfect creatures, and that men are blessed by their love. Arwen is practically unreachable for Aragorn: she is the fairest creature he had ever seen, she is wise and she also is Elrond´s daugther. Aragorn was 20 when he first saw her, and loved her ever since. She returned his love about 30 yeas later, and then they betrothed to each other. They marry almost 40 years later. It´s a longly delayed love story, and all the waiting may seem not very understandable to "modern" readers (me including!!).
My very personal point of view is that Aragorn didn't really know Arwen when he "fell in love" with her, so he too loved "a shadow and a thought".
arvandor
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Post RE: Arwen and Aragorn's "Loving" Realtionship
on: May 15, 2004 07:26
hi,
I think P.J. made it so short because otherwise people (mostly boys) will get bored.
ViggoBliggo
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Post RE: Arwen and Aragorn's "Loving" Realtionship
on: May 15, 2004 07:46
Why bored? Love is so nice thing and I don't get bored of reading about love. How to say...I write a book where a man loves an elf princess...but the princess has to marry with a rich elf guy who doesn't love the princess...he loves the princess's maid...elf princess turns into a heavy chick and runs away from home...
Ordinary elves and men get married nowadays but ya know...this is a pureblooded royal family and we have arranged marriages here..sorry if I went a bit offtopic.
Eruantalincë
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Post RE: Arwen and Aragorn's "Loving" Realtionship
on: May 15, 2004 07:52
I love the Arwen-Aragorn story. At the time of the first movie, they have been in love for about 60 years or so? Somewhere in that time, Elrond told Aragorn that she was too good for him, an Elvenprincess of great beauty and wisdom and an immortal one. At last, he told Aragorn also that Elrond would only agree with a marriage between them when Aragorn became High King. He definitely knew who Arwen was (even if they did not met before), he was raised in Rivendell.

It is not an easy story (the appendices of the books), but I like it. And why do someone falls in love with somebody? I do not know.

The "Glorfindel" part was a fine moment to introduce her. The flashbacks are telling a part of their story. It would be even more confusing when she just popped up in RotK to marry Aragorn, I guess.
Lady~Eowyn
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Post RE: Arwen and Aragorn's "Loving" Realtionship
on: May 15, 2004 12:22
Well I hope you're not saying that they're not attractive, because that's not what true love is about.

Like many people have said, it's hard to show how much they love each other in a short period of time. You would need a whole movie dedicated to that. There's also a really good site that talks about their relationship...I'll post it here when I can find it.
morwen_steelsheen
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Post RE: Arwen and Aragorn's "Loving" Realtionship
on: May 16, 2004 09:54
He definitely knew who Arwen was (even if they did not met before), he was raised in Rivendell.


From the tale of Aragorn and Arwen, when she tells him that´s she is Elrond´s daughter, Aragorn says:
"Yet I marvel at Elrond and your brothers; for though I have dwelt in this house from childhood, I have heard no word of you"

[Edited on 16/5/2004 by morwen_steelsheen]
Just_a_Wolf
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Post RE: Arwen and Aragorn's "Loving" Realtionship
on: May 16, 2004 12:43
That's rather cynical of you, WhiteDragonfly. And unfortunatly not something one can explain to someone who hasn't 'been there', so to speak. Love is ... considerably more than sex and physical attraction, although it is a factor. Similarly it is more than having 'things in common' - on paper, me and my beloved have nothing in common but we never run out of things to talk about. So what could they see in each other? You say "when he's not even worth it" - a noble soul, a pure heart, that he is an incredibly compassionate, caring and intelligent man, that (unlike most he-elves) he's not entirely vain and up himself? Ok that last one was a bit tounge-in-cheek, but it sounds like a good deal to me. And her, well, she's perfect, isn't she?

Personally, I think their story is beautiful. That two people could love each other so much and form a bond so strong that it could endure that sort of timespan, those sorts of distances, and such sacrifices... Quite takes one's breath away.

When you're in love, it's not about expediency, it's about finding the one person who makes your soul complete. And there's no logic in who that'll be, only poetry.
Eruantalincë
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Post RE: Arwen and Aragorn's "Loving" Realtionship
on: May 16, 2004 02:35
He definitely knew who Arwen was (even if they did not met before), he was raised in Rivendell.

From the tale of Aragorn and Arwen, when she tells him that´s she is Elrond´s daughter, Aragorn says:
"Yet I marvel at Elrond and your brothers; for though I have dwelt in this house from childhood, I have heard no word of you"
Well, I had to express myself somewhat clearer. I did not mean "know" literally, like "being known by person", but merely "recognition of a race or house or a specific type of character" (like intuition or having a certain strong feeling either good or bad when one meets an other person for the first time).

I know they did not met. Elrond never mentioned her. But he knew the Elves in general, their main Houses, he learned some of their skill and he had the wisdom from the House of Elros. From the moment he knew she was an Elvenlady of this House (Elrond's), Aragorn recognised her (just on intuition). At least, that is what I think.

I hope this explaines my previous reaction to you guys .

[Edited on 17/5/2004 by Eruantalincë]
WhiteDragonfly
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Post RE: Arwen and Aragorn's "Loving" Realtionship
on: May 16, 2004 04:21
Love without a reason isn't poetry, it's careless.

If someone were to ask Aragorn, "What has made your relationship with Arwen so strong?" he should just be able to say, "Uh, I don't know. I just love her I guess. I don't know why. She's hot I guess and um, lovable so I guess we are in love."

And if someone were to ask Arwen, "How do you know that you are truly in love with Aragorn?" she could say "Well I don't really know, and I really still don't know why I gave up everything for him, but I guess because just I love him."

And if someone were to ask them both, "What lovable qualities do you see in each other, they would be able to say, "Uh, I don't know. I guess we are both good people."

Now how is that love?
Figwit
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Post RE: Arwen and Aragorn's "Loving" Realtionship
on: May 16, 2004 10:25
Love without a reason isn't poetry, it's careless.


Love with reason isn't love. If you can say: I love Boromir (am taking imaginary example ) because he's strong, or because he's attractive or because he's noble, or because of all these things combined - I wouldn't love Boromir, I would love his strength, his good looks and / or his nobility.
Except, I love hím. It's not like Faramir, who is also noble, attractive and strong, could just go and replace him. Thát is the real mystery of love: why him (or her) and no one else?

Love without reason isn't poetry, it's love. It's the definition of love.
And if you define love by a person being able to label qualities that are loveable, then you're going about it all wrong.
Just_a_Wolf
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Post RE: Arwen and Aragorn's "Loving" Realtionship
on: May 16, 2004 11:10
Hmmm, this could get long; the philosophical arguaments of 'what is love' is about as old as 'what is reality' (about four thousand years, if anyone cares). But I shall try non the less, despite that I think this is going to be like trying to explain bacon to a vegetarian...

Love without a reason isn't poetry, it's careless.

Careless why? Because you might 'get hurt'? Yes, there is that risk, but would we ever acheive anything if we didn't take risks? However, this is to an extent an educated risk - they can gage each other's character from the superficial, so she can understand him well enough to know he won't run off with the first wench he meets in the pub, say. But that is not the whole story, and I will go into that later.

I would counter that love based on nothing but reason and logic isn't love at al either: it's a marriage prospect. IMHO, this is where a lot of modern young ladies fall down - they have this mental list of qualities that 'the One' must have - when I meet someone who is tall, blond, artistic, likes cats I will fall In Love with him (for example) - and then they meet him and it doesn't work out, they assume then there is no such thing as love. Either that or they go off with his short, dark, dog-loving, computer programmer best mate, live happily ever after and have lots of kids.

But I digress. Perhaps, based on what I just said, it is the fact that neither of them could roll out a list of why they love the other that demonstrates the depth of thier love. There is a proverb:
The best things cannot be told, because they trancend thought.
The second best things are misunderstood, because those are thoughts that are supposed to refer to that which cannot be thought about.
The third best are what we talk about.
(Joseph Campbel)

Which means that some truths are so huge and abstract that they supercede the mundane limits of verbal language, but can be understood non the less.

Let me express it in terms more familiar to you:
I might assume by your sig you are a woman of faith? I am too, although I suspect we are batting for rather different teams. Now, if someone said to you "How do you KNOW the Divine is real?", could you answer eloquently and succinctly without resorting to "Because my Holy Text/ Priest/ Parents told me It was"? (this is rhetorical, btw, the last thing this thread needs is to segue off into theology) You might be able to express that the teachings of your religion make sense with your world veiw, which is comparable to "because he's a lovely person/ has a cute bum", but you can see that it isn't the whole story (I hope).

So to summarise, love can be guided by reason, but is ultimatly an act of faith, with all the risks and benefits that entails.

(edited because I found that proverb to quote properly)

[Edited on 17/5/2004 by Just_a_Wolf]
Figwit
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Post RE: Arwen and Aragorn's "Loving" Realtionship
on: May 17, 2004 02:34
Are you a philosopher, Just_a_Wolf? (And it's 2600 years ).

Which means that some truths are so huge and abstract that they supercede the mundane limits of verbal language, but can be understood non the less.


Or so small and intimate. I don't think love is something of the level of abstraction, and that's exactly why language can't grasp it. And that's also why you have to *know* it to recognize it, to understand how it works - I feel.
Just_a_Wolf
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Post RE: Arwen and Aragorn's "Loving" Realtionship
on: May 17, 2004 03:21
Are you a philosopher, Just_a_Wolf? (And it's 2600 years ).

No, I'm just an ornery old git. And very, very bored.

If the mods think I'm going to far with this, btw, just hit me with idiot stick and I'll drop it.
Alan
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Post RE: Arwen and Aragorn's "Loving" Realtionship
on: May 17, 2004 08:02
No, no, no, no, go on! Your post was really powerful, well thought-out and emotional (makes me sad that I don't have a beloved one).
I think everybody is going to kill me here, but in TTT I didn't really like the Aragorn-Arwen scenes. Well, I do like love-stories, but I thought them a bit too kitschy. In RotK, too, at the marriage, I just thought "please don't applaude, please don't applaud... NOOO!".
I don't know why I wasn't convinced by PJ's adaption of the story. Honestly, I think it's in fact a very powerful and emotional story: two lovers who have to wait for so many decades and who then agree to give up everything of their previous' lives....
morwen_steelsheen
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Post RE: Arwen and Aragorn's "Loving" Realtionship
on: May 17, 2004 09:38
I think everybody is going to kill me here, but in TTT I didn't really like the Aragorn-Arwen scenes. Well, I do like love-stories, but I thought them a bit too kitschy. In RotK, too, at the marriage, I just thought "please don't applaude, please don't applaud... NOOO!"

Totally agree! There is only one Aragorn-Arwen scene I like (in all the 3 movies): when Elrond tells Arwen about Aragorn´s future death and all the pain it will cause her.
Well ,that´s not a "love scene" really.
I found the kisses particularly disgusting. But I think that was a problem of chemistry between Tyler and Mortensen.

[Edited on 17/5/2004 by morwen_steelsheen]
Lady~Eowyn
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Post RE: Arwen and Aragorn's "Loving" Realtionship
on: May 17, 2004 12:48
From what I learned you can't CHOOSE who you fall in love with, it just hits you. I have to agree with Figwith and Just_a_wolf. This site, go to the 'Characters' section and click on 'Aragorn', then scroll down to the bottom for the section about their love, and 'Arwen' and 'Lessons to Learn from Arwen'. I really enjoyed reading that article.

[Edited on 17/5/2004 by Lady~Eowyn]
Celebrianna
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Post RE: Arwen and Aragorn's "Loving" Realtionship
on: May 19, 2004 06:24
I also agree with Just_a_wolf and Figwit.

Those are some lengthy articles Lady Eowyn and very analytical.

I like A&A relationship primarily because of the constancy and sacrifice.
Lady_of_Lore
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Post RE: Arwen and Aragorn's "Loving" Realtionship
on: May 19, 2004 11:20

Totally agree! There is only one Aragorn-Arwen scene I like (in all the 3 movies): when Elrond tells Arwen about Aragorn´s future death and all the pain it will cause her.
Well ,that´s not a "love scene" really.
I found the kisses particularly disgusting. But I think that was a problem of chemistry between Tyler and Mortensen.

[Edited on 17/5/2004 by morwen_steelsheen]

Firstly, hello everyone, im a newbie . In regards to this discussion, i thought the "Love scenes" or flashbacks in the movies were beautiful. Also, i read an article, somewhere or other where Liv herself said that when she met Viggo she thought "Now here's a man i don't have to pretend to fall in love with" - can u really say there was a problem with chemistry? And would PJ really live it in if it was there, he is MR. Perfectionist!

The love of Arwen and Aragorn is simple really, i think that JRR was tring to show the power true love and how it could survive through everything, - difference in race, war e.t.c and could even make an elf give up her immortality, i wish this storyline would have been more of a part of the books.
Ringhilwen
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Post RE: Arwen and Aragorn's "Loving" Realtionship
on: May 19, 2004 12:57
Just a little mod note This thread has been wavering on and off topic for a little bit. I'd just like to remind everyone that this is the movies forum, so if you're going to expound on the ifs, ands, and whys of love, please relate in in some way to the concept of Aragorn and Arwen's relationship. Thanks!
IsildursHeir
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Post RE: Arwen and Aragorn's "Loving" Realtionship
on: May 19, 2004 01:27
Um, I guess what love is like.
Aragorn and Arwen also have a lot of history. It was also kind of like love at first sight.
Dream~Giver
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Post RE: Arwen and Aragorn's "Loving" Realtionship
on: May 19, 2004 02:45
Yay, Nani's back on!
WhiteDragonfly, do you know how it feels to be in love? Love can be a very beautiful thing, but it can be very painful at times too. I think the idea of Arwen giving up her immortality was beautiful.
Love isn't very hard to find...
But true love is...
Physical attraction has nothing to do with either okay?
IsildursHeir
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Post RE: Arwen and Aragorn's "Loving" Realtionship
on: May 19, 2004 06:52
Yeah, I think Nani is right!
morwen_steelsheen
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Post RE: Arwen and Aragorn's "Loving" Realtionship
on: May 20, 2004 03:31
Also, i read an article, somewhere or other where Liv herself said that when she met Viggo she thought "Now here's a man i don't have to pretend to fall in love with" - can u really say there was a problem with chemistry?

I´ve heard that quote, but it was said by Miranda Otto. I think it was in the cast interviews in TTT, or in the WB television special on The Two Towers. In this link there is an interview wtih Miranda where she speaks about it.
http://www.chud.com/news/dec02/dec7ottourban.php3
What I´ve read that Liv said about Viggo is that he wasn´t her type. But this is second hand info, I don´t know if it´s true.
And PJ may have thought their chemistry was OK. And it may be OK for lots of people. It just isn´t OK to me, and that´s why I don´t like their love scenes.
WhiteDragonfly
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Post RE: Arwen and Aragorn's "Loving" Realtionship
on: May 20, 2004 07:31
It isn't okay for me either.And why does it matter if the actors have chemistry? I care about the characters.
Taraisilwèn
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Post RE: Arwen and Aragorn's "Loving" Realtionship
on: May 20, 2004 07:32
What is love? wel, that's a damn good question, and I don't think there really is an answer. And we have all heard : how do I know if it's love? well, you just know it... that sort of thing, and I think it's true! Personally I haven't loved somebody (except family nad friends of course) so my thoughts aren't based on mu experience, but I have an idea of love and the love between Aragorn and Arwen.

Someone said that when Aragorn fell inlove with arwen he didn't know her, and he too fell inlove in a shadow and a thought. Yes he sort of did, but I think when he met her the second time they got to know each other. and it was then his feeling turned into love.

After that Argorn and Arwen spent years together, got married and died.. You don't do all that, if you don't really love the person. So what did they see in each other? they were both wise, caring, kind and so on. Arwen was as perfect as a living being can be and Aragorn isn't that far away from being it too...why wouldn't they fall for each other? the only reason I see for that, is because she was an elf and he a man. But even that isn't a reason good enough for you can't decide who you fall inlove with.

Looks maybe doesnt have anything to say when it comes to real love, but i do think both Aragorn and arwen was attracted to each other. Yes, we know Aragorn was, but I think Arwen also liked aragorns look, even if she'd seen hundreds of beautiful elves (males). Who knows, maybe she liked the outdoor kind of type and a little dirt ;p
Still, looks was not the reason for their love of course!

This were only some of my thoughts on the subject....feel free to disagree, but please don't hate me for my opinions...
LadyNirithilofMirkwood
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Post RE: Arwen and Aragorn's "Loving" Realtionship
on: May 20, 2004 11:00
i think that the a&a story was beautiful, but just wasnt very well explained-book or movie(cept 4 tha appendices)-and so the story seems hard to follow i guess u just have 2 know that they luv eachother. i mean you can tell that they luv eachother by the sacrifices they make to be with one another, and that is understndable, but its hard to understand why they did so. but i dont blame p.j. 4 not going into detail b-cuz that wuld take up time and it might bore ppl plus the ring was mor important to the plot than their relationship so i dont find it absolutly necessary to make a long movie longer
Lady~Eowyn
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Post RE: Arwen and Aragorn's "Loving" Realtionship
on: May 20, 2004 12:50
Aragorn and Arwen also have a lot of history. It was also kind of like love at first sight.

Well actually it wasn't like that for Arwen, for Aragorn yes, but not Arwen. It took some time for her to realize that she loved him. And like Ringhilwen said we are going a bit off-topic...


[Edited on 20/5/2004 by Lady~Eowyn]
IsildursHeir
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Post RE: Arwen and Aragorn's "Loving" Realtionship
on: May 20, 2004 01:42
Oh woops, now I remember. I think Arwen fell in love with Aragorn in Lorien. Thanks for clearing things up again Lady~Eowyn.
Lady~Eowyn
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Post RE: Arwen and Aragorn's "Loving" Realtionship
on: May 21, 2004 12:25
Oh woops, now I remember. I think Arwen fell in love with Aragorn in Lorien. Thanks for clearing things up again Lady~Eowyn.

Lol no problemo That's why I'm here right
Dream~Giver
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Post RE: Arwen and Aragorn's "Loving" Realtionship
on: May 21, 2004 02:48
WhiteDragonfly, I got one question to ask you:
Have you ever loved someone, as in seriously? If so, why do you love that person?
Love comes in many forms, and it can be unexpected. Love without reason is NOT poetry. It's actually very real. Unless you experienced it yourself, you wouldn't be able to understand.
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Post RE: Arwen and Aragorn's "Loving" Realtionship
on: May 22, 2004 08:42
WhiteDragonfly, I got one question to ask you:
Have you ever loved someone, as in seriously? If so, why do you love that person?
Love comes in many forms, and it can be unexpected. Love without reason is NOT poetry. It's actually very real. Unless you experienced it yourself, you wouldn't be able to understand.


Again, let's try to keep the thread on topic guys

That said, I can see why people might think the Aragorn/Arwen love story may be underdeveloped in the movie. After all, everyone who's read the books understands that there's a huge backstory there - destiny and whatnot. In the movie, that's all ignored - you're just introduced to their love, and you have to accept it as a fact, and realize there's a whole lot more there than meets the eye.

But sometimes, love can't be explained....though I can say that Aragorn is definitely worth it!
Dream~Giver
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Post RE: Arwen and Aragorn's "Loving" Realtionship
on: May 30, 2004 07:46
Again, let's try to keep the thread on topic guys
Oopsie!
Ring is totally right thought: love can't be explained sometimes.
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