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Legebriwen
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Post RE: Atheism/Agnosticism/Other
on: April 14, 2004 03:56
Suilaid Mellyn!

I find this a welcome and refreshing topic, with well discussed and interesting postings also! Credit to CoE members and the Admin for keeping it respectful and open-minded! I am agnostic, but certainly believe that each person has a spiritual center within themselves. I am trying to find my own and appreciate being able to read such open postings and honest viewpoints. Thank you to everyone for your insights and for sharing your thoughts. :heart:

~Lege~
"The Elf That Missed The Boat!"
~Lege~ "The Elf who missed the boat!"
glory2glorfindel
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Post RE: Atheism/Agnosticism/Other
on: April 14, 2004 06:58
I am a sort of atheist, I suppose. I guess you could say atheist/fatalist. Except fatalism isn't really a religion.
I'm a perceptionist, would be the best term. I believe that nothing exists, that all that we feel, see, touch, taste-- sense-- is a perception. And since we perceive our selves, since we think that we exist, then we don't exist. We are all a perception of the nothing that is nothing.
Now, this makes for a very fatalistic view on life. Since nothing exists, then nothing can matter, right? Everything we perceive is exactly how we perceive it, with nothing beyond that, because our world is only as much as we can sense. And as we cannot sense the past, beyond remembering (which, for all I know could be a complete illusion, as complete as the illusion I live in), then nothing ever happened, is happening, or will happen. But, since we cannot change our perceptions, and they will be what we think we are forever, then I am also extremely fatalistic. Things are what they are, were what they were, and will be what they will be.
Of course, it takes a very long time to explain all this (I barely touched the surface here) I usually say that I am atheist. Which is true, because atheist means literally, a-=without/the=god/ist=one who. One who is without god. Since nothing exists, then a god cannot exist except as realistically as the rest of everything we sense, and so, i believe a god does not exist. which is a whole lot easier than explaining everything.
glory2glorfindel
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Post RE: Atheism/Agnosticism/Other
on: April 17, 2004 11:35
Some of my friends are very religious, and I think if I ever had to explain to them my beliefs I would probobly bring up this quote:

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself."

It seems the more I ponder this quote, the more it strikes true to me.


Yes! this is soooo... well, thank you, I now love this quote! I mean, a God who shaped man in his own form? Mayhap a MAN who shaped God in his own form?? yes.. it fits. Most of the considered "good" aspects of god are ones we admire most in our own society, mercy, benevolence, etc. And so we give them to one we create to be higher than us.
Aisheeya
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Post RE: Atheism/Agnosticism/Other
on: May 15, 2004 06:22
Yet another atheist here. *waves her hand*

When it comes to religion, I grew up in a very typical Finnish family: namely Christian, but really... no.
The problems began when I was in school. I'm not sure how it happened, but when I was 9-10 years old I felt like I had to pray for everyone I knew - not forgetting anyone - so that nothing bad would happen to them. I was actually very scared little girl. Luckily I forgot to pray one night and noticed that nothing happened. I wasn't afraid anymore, but didn't believe in God either.

Since then I've had my share of problems. My mother had no problem whatsoever with my decision as she's not religious herself and my "friends2 didn't even notice anything. However, some high school teachers and a certain priest didn't approve my choice, and so I've learnt to defend my disbeliefs. ^___^ I have to admit I like arguing/discussing (call it what you like) with religious people.

Nowadays most of the people I spend time with are atheists or agnostics, but one very close friend of mine is a devout Christian, though she's very open-minded - perhaps more than many atheists I know... One reason for our friendship being so good is our agreement of accepting each others beliefs and not questioning them. After all, one thing I can openly admit to hate is people who try to convert me; I'm an adult and have freedom of religion. I usually don't want to make people cry, but when this issue is pushed too far, I get mean. -___-

In my opinion everyone has a right to believe what they like and practise their faith as long as it doesn't harm others. By harming I mean everything from trying to convert others to granny-sacrificing rituals - some being of course more wrong than others.

For me death isn't a scary thing. I believe everything ends on that very moment, no heaven or hell, reincarnations or anything. The show is over. Finito. To think like this is, to me, as natural as to belive in evolution etc. And anyway, I have no need to know everything: this world exists (or does it? ^__~), why should I know how it came to be? Some questions are simply too hard for my poor little brains...

Blah, blah, blah... I wonder if anyone read this far...
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Post RE: Atheism/Agnosticism/Other
on: May 16, 2004 03:06
LOL i read that far... great entry, i can really identify with most of what you say there. (except the bit about praying, i dont think i ever did that)
Mara
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Post RE: Atheism/Agnosticism/Other
on: May 16, 2004 04:40
lol...same here! I made it to the end, and I totally agree with you! One of my best friends is christian and she doesn't force her beliefs on my, nor do I on her, and it works. I actually have friends of several different faiths (wiccan, christian, buddhist, atheist...) and we all get along rather well.

[Edited on 16/5/2004 by Mara]
Neenime
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Post RE: Atheism/Agnosticism/Other
on: May 17, 2004 05:31
Fortunately, even many Christians are starting to realize that their religion is not the only "right " one. That has happened as :

1) evidence has accumulated that what is practised as Chrisitanity was an invention of the Church and not directly from Jesus' lips.

2) It becomes clear that the Chruchess interpret what they like from th Bible and conveniently leave out other stuff. So much for the idea of living by the literal and exact word of God.

2) even Chrisitan scholars and ministers are recognizing that there is little to no historical evidence that Jesus ever existed. The Church in the 4th century re-wrote large chunks of the Bible and according to theologian Tom Harpur's latest book ( THE PAGAN CHRIST)falsified historical records to create evidence for the events fo Jesus.

So, if no religion can claim to be right, then any religion or spiritual system could be viable. Most people would draw the line at beliefs like Satanism, which (if I understand it correctly) might advocate ANY means to achieve power and success, without any sense of moral obligation to other beings.

Namaste
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“Some believe it is only great power that can hold evil in check. But that is not what I have found. I have found that it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay. Small acts of kindness and love. " Gandalf
Lozza
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Post RE: Atheism/Agnosticism/Other
on: May 17, 2004 01:46


"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself."

"the opposite of love is not hate, but indiffrence."



I find these two quotes awfully appropriate, who said them/worte them? Anyone know?
square
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Post RE: Atheism/Agnosticism/Other
on: May 17, 2004 04:29

The problems began when I was in school. I'm not sure how it happened, but when I was 9-10 years old I felt like I had to pray for everyone I knew - not forgetting anyone - so that nothing bad would happen to them. I was actually very scared little girl. Luckily I forgot to pray one night and noticed that nothing happened. I wasn't afraid anymore, but didn't believe in God either.


I had almost that same experience. Now days I'm half way between Agnostic and Atheist.
I don't think there is neccesarily a 'right' religeon. I think whatever you believe is just sort of your own truth. . . if that made any sense at all.

[Edited on 18/5/2004 by square]
Wulf_Sternhammer
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Post RE: Atheism/Agnosticism/Other
on: May 18, 2004 02:52
Quote:
__________________________________________________

"Most people would draw the line at beliefs like Satanism, which (if I understand it correctly) might advocate ANY means to achieve power and success, without any sense of moral obligation to other beings."
__________________________________________________


Satanism according to true Satinists is nothing like it is painted by Christianity and Hollywood. They believe that Lucifer was cast out for opposing god for creating a world full of suffering and grief. They actually believe that it is Lucifer (who is gods oldest son) who is good and not the other way around.
Just thought I would clarify that as it is a common misconception.



Live and love
Wulf.
Mara
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Post RE: Atheism/Agnosticism/Other
on: May 18, 2004 03:43
I don't think there is neccesarily a 'right' religeon. I think whatever you believe is just sort of your own truth. . . if that made any sense at all.


It makes sense, square...well, that is it makes sense to me. I don't know what that says about it, though, lol
Neenime
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Post RE: Atheism/Agnosticism/Other
on: May 18, 2004 08:44
Thanks for the clarification, Wulf. I was surprised when I learned that Wicca was nothing like what I had been taught. So I may have a few surprises ahead of me yet.

“Some believe it is only great power that can hold evil in check. But that is not what I have found. I have found that it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay. Small acts of kindness and love. " Gandalf
Este
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Post RE: Atheism/Agnosticism/Other
on: May 19, 2004 03:52
I`m an Atheist as well...both my parents are atheists, and I had nobody to hear about religion from when I was a child. So instead I concentrated on science (especially astronomy),and drew from it all the explanations I needed about life. Then I had this Wiccan phase when I was about eleven or so, but I gave that up because I didn`t really have time to learn more about it (but I`d like to get back to it someday). Nowadays I don`t really have a religion because believing in a God was never the thing for me- I prefer to take things into my own hands instead of relying on some divine being....The weird thing is I somehow ended up in quite a close-minded Catholic school (trust me, I have no idea how), and it`s a bit awkward being the only Atheist there. I never push my beliefs on anybody, so I find it a little sad that everybody at school tries to convince me that I`m going the wrong way, thinking that they˙re the only ones that are right.

By the way, could anybody explain what`s the difference between Agnosticism and Atheism? I don`t really get it...*feels like a dunce*
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: Atheism/Agnosticism/Other
on: May 19, 2004 07:02
By the way, could anybody explain what`s the difference between Agnosticism and Atheism? I don`t really get it...*feels like a dunce*

As far as I understand, atheists strictly deny the existence of any higher power, whereas agnostics think that, there may or may not be one, but we can never know for sure - there's no valid proof either way. In a way, atheism is as much a matter of belief as any religion, and agnosticism is a "scientific" approach to the matter.

Myself, I grew up in a secular Lutheran family, and left the church when I grew up. I usually define myself as an agnostic, but have found much in common with Wiccans and other Pagans. I don't have problems with people of any religion, unless they try to convert me - I respect their spiritual path, and demand that they also respect mine.
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Post RE: Atheism/Agnosticism/Other
on: May 19, 2004 08:29
atheists strictly deny the existence of any higher power


Wow that makes us sound really harsh..

The way i generally view it is that athiests dont believe in a higher power, agnostics believe in something but they are not sure what (i define a believe in destiny, fate, ka, an unknown god etc. as agnostic)

hmmm actually looking at dictionary.com i was wrong, agnostics do not have to believe in something... interesting. you learn a new thing every day
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: Atheism/Agnosticism/Other
on: May 22, 2004 07:27
atheists strictly deny the existence of any higher power


Wow that makes us sound really harsh.

Well, I guess all atheists aren't that strict, but the ones I know mostly are - they are almost "religious" in their opinions. Perhaps more typical is that one just doesn't believe that there's any higher power.

And no, agnostics don't have to believe in anything - the word translates approximately as "non-knowing". They don't shut out the possibility that there is something more than the real universe, but think that there's no way to get any reliable knowledge about that matter.
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: Atheism/Agnosticism/Other
on: November 18, 2004 04:03
Lifted to a bit more visible place for Airenostalë and other possibly interested people.
Cailyn
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Post RE: Atheism/Agnosticism/Other
on: November 23, 2004 08:24
I grew up a Christian and absolutely hated it. I converted to Wicca a few years ago. My spirit's a little dark (which is completely different from evil, but it does explain why I'm a night time autumn/winter person). I've been a scientist all my life, and I believe in evolution and the big bang and all that. I knew very early I'd never be a Christian because I didn't like the idea of the human race being descended from only two people. My scientific learning taught me that we'd all be deformed and retarded if that were true. BTW, Darwin's theory doesn't say humans descended from monkeys; it says that humans and other primates have common ancestors. I never felt upset about it because primates are intelligent, and it made me a part of the earth rather than an intruder sent to dominate it.

I don't believe people choose their beliefs. The beliefs choose them for a purpose; even the atheists are atheists for a reason.
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: Atheism/Agnosticism/Other
on: November 24, 2004 02:55
Cailyn, if you're Wiccan, you might be interested in this thread - another one that was buried some pages back.
glory2glorfindel
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Post RE: Atheism/Agnosticism/Other
on: November 24, 2004 08:04

By the way morals and ethics are not bound to any spesific religion. ... Besides, without morals and ethics all would be chaos and anarchy.


But some religions define their followers morals and ethics... "Thou shalt not... because it's wrong." type thing. And who said chaos and anarchy is a bad thing?

Personally, I have fun confusing people-- sure, I'm something that's not atheist or agnostic, but not deist and I think I went into it on like the second page of this thread a few ages ago-- but it's really really fun to confuse people about the whole "morals and ethics" thing.
See, people seem to consider "morals" and "ethics" to separate the good from the bad. I'm not talking Heaven and Hell good and bad, specifically, but even "without them we'd all have nothing but chaos and anarchy!!". But, really, I don't think there should be negative and positive attached to the English language. No duh, it'll never go away, but just try it: For, say, an hour or so, refuse to think of "dark" or "insidious" or "cold" or "brutish" as bad and "pure" or "white" or "above" as good and maybe you'll see what I mean. Chaos and anarchy ain't such a bad thing... perhaps it'd be best to return to the state of nature. "Life would be brutish and short"... who said that's bad?
Sorry, I'm a cynic sometimes.
Aren't I always?
No, you are, I'm not always.
*talks to self*

And I know that didn't make much sense. But you're perfectly welcome to ignore me like the rest of humanity.
Elwë_Sindacollo
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Post RE: Atheism/Agnosticism/Other
on: November 25, 2004 08:57
Well, im very atheist, and it suprises me that the way this topic is going and the things that are said here are very much alike to the conclusions I myself made. The conclusion for example that God and religion is created by man instead of the other way around, and more important, that religion has a function and is often necessary to provide rules to a society, and unfortunatly you need power to enforce rules or laws. Therefor people invented god (gods), to get power. Unfortunatly, power leads often to corruption, expecially power that is based on nothing real, like the power early priests had. Another bad thing about religion is that you eventually get the feeling you are better, you deserve better then other people, so you make war on them. If you win wars, you get power, which gives you more confidence you are indeed better then others, which leads to war, which leads to confidence, which leads to war and so on.
heri_sinyë
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Post RE: Atheism/Agnosticism/Other
on: January 19, 2007 01:35
I suppose I'm very atheist too. My mum is very atheist too so if I've been raised in such a way that it would be practically impossible for me to believe in any kind of god.
Many times I think God's just an excuse, something invented by human kind so that we don't have to feel any kind of responsability. And I just get so irritated when I find that the curch has the terms moral, family, love and forgiveness in it's possesion. As if religion had invented it. I know those terms make the bases of many religions, but that doesn't mean people that don't believe in any god don't have any moral...
Death isn't really something that bothers me, cause as Epicurus said, when we exist, death isn't here and when death comes we do no longer exist... And death is really the only thing that makes us all equal, and the only thing I'm sure will come. And the only question I do not ask myself is: what comes after death? because I know I'll know it one day...
newsgirl
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Post RE: Atheism/Agnosticism/Other
on: January 19, 2007 01:43
Hm... well as a christian I must say we do have morals, but you're right, just because you don't believe in any God doesn't mean you don't have morals. Some people seem to think that, but they are in the minority, not all of us believe that.
Theres a whole bunch of other stuff I'd like to say but I think debating is kinda against the rules so I'd better stop right here :drool:
Anoria_Miriel
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Post RE: Atheism/Agnosticism/Other
on: January 20, 2007 07:33
I'm an atheist. My parents are agnostic, though my mum's from a Jewish background, and my dad's from a methodist one. Personally I've never been religious, and doubt I ever will be. I've just never seen the point of believing in something that can't be proved. My religious friends tell me that that's not the point, and that the point is that you just believe, but I'm not a big fan of blind faith. I just find the whole idea of a deity a little scary. And in history religions seem to have always been used to keep people living in fear.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against religion. And I'll admit, a lot of good work is done by religious charities and such, spreading the message of peace and altruism. But I do think religion has often been a means to start wars. I don't think there'd be any less conflict without religion, as I think conflict is in human nature. But I do think there might perhaps be a little less without religion.

This might sound a bit weird, but I don't acually think there's really such a thing as morals. Because people have different views on what is moral and what isn't, so I think its mostly just people's opinions. But having said that I don't think that atheists are any less moral than religious people. If anything I think they're probably more moral, because they're not influenced by the ideas put forward by their religion, and they make independant decisions about whether or not to be moral.

[Edited on 20/1/2007 by Anoria_Miriel]
Gildor-Inglorion
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Post RE: Atheism/Agnosticism/Other
on: January 20, 2007 08:39
Wow, this is an ancient thread. I remember seeing this years ago but didn't post. I figure it's probably about time I did

I'm what you would call Agnostic Atheist

"If a man has failed to find any good reason for believing that there is a God, it is perfectly natural and rational that he should not believe that there is a God; and if so, he is an atheist... if he goes farther, and, after an investigation into the nature and reach of human knowledge, ending in the conclusion that the existence of God is incapable of proof, cease to believe in it on the ground that he cannot know it to be true, he is an agnostic and also an atheist - an agnostic-atheist - an atheist because an agnostic... while, then, it is erroneous to identify agnosticism and atheism, it is equally erroneous so to separate them as if the one were exclusive of the other..."


Agnosticism isn't a statement of belief but of knowledge. I can very well believe that there is no God but I do not claim that my belief is based on absolute knowledge and is therefore subject to revision should sincere evidence present itself to the contrary.

I do feel that it's all semantics though and that any specific label is pretty much worthless when attempting to describe the complex thing known as belief.

I feel that history has born out time and time again that there is not "true" religion and that God is a creation of man. That said, I also assert that this is a question which can't be proven in either direction. I think those who make claims that God emphatically does or does not exist are in fact assuming too much. Neither position can be proven absolutely so neither can be relied upon and either extreme ends up being dogmatic.

I personally believe that we must judge religion based on its outcome. What results does it produce? Are they good? Bad? Part of my criticism of religion is that it is a reveling in emotion. This can be a good thing when it produces things like help for the needy, service to others, etc but it can also be dangerous. The inherent reliance on emotion as the source of decision making opens one up to act on hate. This is not to say that all religions promote hatred - indeed it is quite often the opposite when you get down to the source. Rather, it is the utter reliance upon emotion that can unwittingly sway a believer to carry out deeds from another powerful emotion - hatred. It tends to make people reactive instead of responsive. It is the mindset that I view as dangerous not (usually) the teachings!

I do not mean this to be an abandonment of all emotion! Hardly! To be human is to be a creature of emotion. Indeed, as Einstein once said: "It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure." I believe emotion is to be embraced, enjoyed for what it is, but always to be kept in balance and never allowed to dominate. We should understand and enjoy emotion not be its servant; emotion should serve us.

I believe in questioning everything. This does not mean simply being a rebel for rebellions sake as that is nearly as bad as simply obeying because you are told to do so. So much of what we believe is not consciously chosen! It is my objective to actively choose every decision I make (responding instead of reacting) and to actively choose those things which I believe. I also believe in continually questioning those things I believe and in the willingness to abandon old beliefs if they do not fit with future observation.

This questioning also extends to the realm of science. Far too often we take our perception for reality when nothing could be farther from the truth (science itself has proven this time and time again). Models (beliefs, interestingly, are our model of 'reality') are useful insofar as they produce results. The greatest achievements in science are always from breaks in the mold; from new ways of looking at old things. Any good scientist knows this so I refuse to fall into the trap of worshiping science as infalliable. It is merely a collection of models that are useful. That said, I DON'T intend for this to excuse believing whatever I want. The current models are good models. They're not perfect but they they do provide results and should be trusted until they are proven to be inaccurate. Hopefully that last paragraph made some sense....

The interesting thing is that some people misinterpret science to be a set of beliefs when in reality it is nothing of the sort - it is the constant re-evalutation of belief (beliefs can be based on scientific findings but that is inherently different)

I believe in cause and effect and not in fate or destiny. I believe in freedom of choice. Not that we are free to choose our situations but that we are, if sufficiently in control to realize a decision is available, free to choose how we respond to our situation which will spawn numerous more cause and effect relationships.

I believe people generally believe whatever they want to believe regardless of evidence. So far every experience I have ever had confirms this. It is the rare person who can step outside of his or her belief system and analyze it. Quite interestingly, I would propose that while tradition evolves towards being 'more enlightened' it isn't because the people themselves are any better than previous generations (as much as we might like to believe it) but because a minority of thinkers changed the way society looks at things.

So.. my current core tenets:

- Question everything; continually
- Assume as little as possible
- Enjoy life

And some nice Agnostic quotes:

"Is there a God? I do not know. Is man immortal? I do not know. One thing I do know, and that is, that neither hope, nor fear, belief, nor denial, can change the fact. It is as it is, and it will be as it must be." - Robert Ingersoll

"We can be as honest as we are ignorant. If we are, when asked what is beyond the horizon of the known, we must say that we do not know." Robert Ingersoll

"I believe that with infinite arms Nature embraces the all—that there is no interference—no chance—that behind every event are the necessary and countless causes, and that beyond every event will be and must be the necessary and countless effects." Robert Ingersoll

“I do not consider it an insult, but rather a compliment to be called an agnostic. I do not pretend to know where many ignorant men are sure - that is all that agnosticism means.” - Clarence Darrow

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." - Thomas Jefferson



[Edited on 1/21/2007 by Gildor-Inglorion]
heri_sinyë
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Post RE: Atheism/Agnosticism/Other
on: January 21, 2007 03:04
I've just never seen the point of believing in something that can't be proved. My religious friends tell me that that's not the point, and that the point is that you just believe, but I'm not a big fan of blind faith. I just find the whole idea of a deity a little scary. And in history religions seem to have always been used to keep people living in fear.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against religion. And I'll admit, a lot of good work is done by religious charities and such, spreading the message of peace and altruism. But I do think religion has often been a means to start wars. I don't think there'd be any less conflict without religion, as I think conflict is in human nature. But I do think there might perhaps be a little less without religion.
[Edited on 20/1/2007 by Anoria_Miriel]

That's just how I feel. If I can't find any proof I won't believe in anything. And even though many good things have been done by religious charities I tend to think a lot more about the bad things that have been done in the name of a god. That's probaly because I'm from Spain, and not so long time ago it was ruled by the dictator Franco (maybe you already know this?) and he was very much supported by the spanish church, and therefore many bad things were done in name of the catholicism. So as my family (especially my grandmother) suffered this, it is hard for me to feel any great sympathy for any religion. But I think that those things that are meant to be the real point with religions (love, forgiveness...) are good. It's a pity that humankind has a tendance to distort that sort of messages...
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Post RE: Atheism/Agnosticism/Other
on: January 21, 2007 06:50
I am a Christian. For me I guess faith in God in is necessary. I think I am prone to analyze things to death and debate both sides of an issue. I can't see how to believe that we just are an accident. For me there is just to much evidence to the contrary. I do believe that it is very possible to have morals if you do not have a region, I know several people with morals that have no religion.
From what I have seen it takes just as much faith to be an atheist or an evolutionist as a Christian. I am not trying to be argumentative just stating what my observations.
frodofan14
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Post RE: Atheism/Agnosticism/Other
on: August 10, 2008 12:38
I'm agnostic I guess, coz I don't really belive in this god christians talk about, but I kinda think there's SOME form of a god, just not this one guy.....
Ven
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Post RE: Atheism/Agnosticism/Other
on: August 16, 2008 09:08
I was raised as a Christian (Southern Baptist to be exact) and i believe in God but I have an enormously hard time agreeing with and understanding the principles of Christianity. I don't think it's right for christians to go about and tell people about their religion. Religion and/or personal beliefs are someone's own business and I don't like or understand the idea of "witnessing." I also have a problem with the Bible's stance on homosexuality and sexual activity. Again that is a person's own business and they should not be judged by how they live, especially if it's not hurting anyone.
awelyn418
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Post RE: Atheism/Agnosticism/Other
on: August 17, 2008 06:44
I guess I fit in with the other category. I read what Rivka wrote and I thought how horrid to not be able to express what you believe because of what you think others will do or think. I am a Christian but I have a relationship with my God . Religion I have always had trouble with a person telling me what is wrong or right. I am tolerant and if I want to have a drink I will and I guess it is just a personal thing for me. I to love Science and at the same time I have had supernatural things happen to me. Some of my friends are not my friends now because of my beliefs. They expect things from me that I should or should not do and I don't buy it. Don't get me wrong I do believe in God and I read my Bible but it is what I hear from my God not what a man tells me I should hear from God. But as a Christian I do respect your views here and doesn't COE rock that you can share your views here and not feel like you are going to be put down for them.
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