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Eressëa
Melkor's Apprentice
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Post Fate, Free Will or Chance
on: June 06, 2004 05:57
In the thread Who Summoned People to Rivendell discussion came to be about whether it was chance or fate that rules ME. If Ilúvatar gave the Firstborn and the Followers free will, then how come Gandalf, Elrond, Bombadil etc can talk of destiny and fate?
Well, I guess I am just interested to hear your opinion of the matter.... Is there some great pattern which the story of ME follows or does it all happen by chance?, if things are destined to be then how can free will work? If all has a fate, then does Ilúvatar knows all that will happen? If fate is, then was it made through the music of the Ainur?
All opinions and thoughts are welcome

[Edited on 6/6/2004 by atalante_star]
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: Fate, Free Will or Chance
on: June 06, 2004 07:46
Funny - I've participated in a similar discussion on a couple of other sites, too.

My conception of this is that, the outline of events is determined by the Music, as is the final fate of Arda and everything that is tied to it. The Music also affects the lives of humans; after all, they are in it, and live in Arda - but, they are not tied in the fate of Arda, like elves. But, elves aren't just puppets either, although one can get that impression from some passages of the text.

All sentient creatures have free will in details, and the choice in matters concerning them. IMO, another participant in one of those discussions put it well by saying that, a specific outcome is probable, but our choices can alter that probability. So, there are individuals who are fated to be in a certain place at a certain moment to make something happen; but, they can choose their way of action in these situations. For example, a majority of the Noldor could have refused to follow Fëanor, or Frodo could have refused to become the Ringbearer. In these cases, the outcome of events could have been quite different from what it was; but if for example Legolas wouldn't have joined the Fellowship, the only change might have been that, the new friendship between elves and dwarves may not have formed.
Figwit
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Post RE: Fate, Free Will or Chance
on: June 06, 2004 10:06
Personally I think that the entire universe was determined from the very beginning by the three themes. There is a certain amount of free will (look at Melkor for instance) but that too is determined: Melkor's rebellious music is incorporated in the next theme and even improves it, as if Illúvatar needed it to complete his music.

So even if we have a choice, it's because we need it to choose what we have to choose anyway. That is a very christian, catholic thought: you have free will not because you can then choose for evil, but because you can positively, affirmatively choose for the good and so affirm God.
Though in Tolkien's works it seems as if evil itself also needs to be affirmed by a choice of free will (that's more a Germanic, Nordic stance I believe), which reminds me more of the theodicée of Leibniz for instance...
Eressëa
Melkor's Apprentice
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Post RE: Fate, Free Will or Chance
on: June 07, 2004 09:56
Well, your posts have really got me thinking
IMO, another participant in one of those discussions put it well by saying that, a specific outcome is probable, but our choices can alter that probability. So, there are individuals who are fated to be in a certain place at a certain moment to make something happen; but, they can choose their way of action in these situations. For example, a majority of the Noldor could have refused to follow Fëanor, or Frodo could have refused to become the Ringbearer. In these cases, the outcome of events could have been quite different from what it was;

But if some of these important choises had been chosen differently, would that have been part of the music too? If per example FRodo chose not to be Ringbearer, somebody else would have had to become it, not only Frodo's fate would have been different, but the new Ringbearers too.... And most likely also the fate of everyone else who was in some way part of these extensive happenings.....
Wouldn't the music then have to have both plan B's and C's for all the possible choices that each person can choose at every single moment.... Every little action may change the future, a small drop of water might start a flood, if none of this was actually decided, then how would the Music have been able to even come with a clue of what would happpen....

And if all is decided from the beginning, if alls fate is determined from the start.... Can it be called free will, even if you have to make a choice to affirm the good that you are already destined to do..... or the evil? Yet whenever there is a choice, in my opinion you will always have the possibility to agree to the terms of the choice or negate it. Is it possible then, to reject what you are supposed to affirm? And if it is not, can it be called acting of your own free will? Is not then the choice of affirmation you make already chosen for you....?
I am getting lost in these thoughts:dizzy:
Figwit
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Post RE: Fate, Free Will or Chance
on: June 07, 2004 08:47
Well, as I see it, free will within the frame of a fully pre-determined world means that there is a choice, but a negative one: it's a choice you can't make.

For instance: Melkor had the choice to play along with the music or go against it. But in the end it was never an option for Melkor to just go with the flow.

Frodo's the same: did he really have the choice? When Bilbo hands him the Ring, it becomes his responsibility, and so it's also his responsibility to get it out of the Shire. But once it's there, he's already grown a bond with it and - in a way - he just can't not make the choice to become Ringbearer, he is. He made every future decision when he got Bilbo's Ring as an inheritance.

Did that make sense?
Taraisilwèn
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Post RE: Fate, Free Will or Chance
on: June 16, 2004 12:23
Its a while sinse I read any of Tolkiens books now, but if my somewhat vague memory is correct, doesnt the Silmarilion say something about the gift to the first born was immortality and the gift to the second born was 'free will' or free destiny' or something like that?

And in the movie Gandalf says to Frodo: ..There are other forces at work in this world besides the will of evil. Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. In which case you were
also 'meant' to have it. And that is an encouraging thought.
Didn't he say something like that in the book too? Or maybe I'm wrong..
Eressëa
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Post RE: Fate, Free Will or Chance
on: July 09, 2004 01:18
When in doubt, turn to the wise and maybe they'll help you find your way And so I did, I stumbled across this passage in FotR which settles my mind on the matter, though Galadriel may not be all-knowledgeable, she does know something

In the morning you must depart, for now we have chosen, and the tides of fate are flowing


Thus spoke Galadriel after having rejected the Ring. In my opinion this states that people have a choice -always, though sometimes the choices might be difficult to see and none may be for the good. But still, that her choice -and Frodo's are made shows that their choices were important. Perhaps all choices are, whenever the choice has an affect it may or may not change fate for good or bad. Sometimes the choices matter little for the greater fate -the fate of ME, but other's do -like Galadriels. If she chose to take the Ring, all would be different, but deciding not to take it is just as important for now the Ringbearer must continue his journey -he know what he must do now -the course of the river Fate has been set, the waters have been released, the tides of fate are flowing.

If however this is true, then how can anything be fated beforehand? Again I have an inkling of idea. In the great sung, special guidelines were set. It might not be that the Ainur knew of all that they sung, but Ilúvatar surely did. In the song was mentioned the Ring -the Ring was fated to be. How the Ring should fare, was unknown at the time, though possibilities came. That Ilúvatar doesn't decide what his creations should do, doesn't imply that he may not percieve how every choice they make will affect the future. And in a way then it was fated that Bilbo should find the Ring.
Whether he took it or not, that was his choice...

"I understand you a little better now, Gandalf, than I did before. Though I suppose that, whether meant or not, Bilbo might have refused to leave home, and so might I. You could not compel us. You were not even allowed to try. -UT, Quest of Erebor


I'm afraid I'm not making as much sense as I did in my mind.....
GloredhelofLorien
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Post RE: Fate, Free Will or Chance
on: July 15, 2004 05:40
I personally found both the books and the movies to be really great. Honestly, I don't even like one better than the other. I read the books first, and when I saw the movies, I was completely happy with PJ and the casting crew on what a good job they did.
atalante_star
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Post RE: Fate, Free Will or Chance
on: July 22, 2004 10:07
Totally by chance (or was it fate?) I came across this quote in the book I'm reading at the moment (Ghostwritten, David Mitchell - which, I have to say, is utterly utterly brilliant) ....
Therefore, does chance or fate control our lives? Well, the answer is as relative as time. If you're in your life, chance. Viewed from the outside, like a book you're reading, it's fate all the way.

I thought that rather interesting :love:
LadyEowyn_Of_Rohan
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Post RE: Fate, Free Will or Chance
on: July 26, 2004 11:32
Therefore, does chance or fate control our lives? Well, the answer is as relative as time. If you're in your life, chance. Viewed from the outside, like a book you're reading, it's fate all the way.
The quote's basically what someone was saying before, as I see it: Whatever happens to a person may seem like free will or chance but was in the music of the Ainur. Great quote...
cirdaneth
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on: June 23, 2014 03:19
*bump
Loreanna
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on: June 23, 2014 04:01
I see Free Will as possible only if one could foresee the outcome of the choices made. As we cannot control everything and everyone around us, and their choices, that's where I see Chance entering the stage. So, in the end, I do believe more in Fate than otherwise.
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