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atalante_star
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Post Long-post Archive - Elven Tribal Matters
on: September 28, 2004 06:22
This is an old thread of Atalante's which I have hi-jacked with her permission to house miscellaneous long-posts essays written by CoE members and staff, moved here from deleted threads.

1. Arvegil's essay on Elven tribal matters


[Edited on 06/22/2014 by cirdaneth]
arvegil
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Post RE: Long-post Archive [keep]
on: September 29, 2004 02:34
[Since you brought an identical point, I thought I would provide a topic post I made in another forum on this very issue for the good of the order]

Hello, Everyone:

In this thread, I invite discussion on the comparative dispositions of some of the Elf tribes. I started thinking about this when I was reading The War of the Jewels, in the History of Middle-Earth series. One of the things about Tolkien’s story about the original Elves and how they split into the three tribes, and into Eldar and Avari, is that he did this story multiple times; in fact, Morgoth’s Ring has a version of the same events which is radically different from the one I am referring to. The reason why I find this version of interest is that it reflects on the different dispositions of the Teleri and the Noldor, the two tribes which make the Elf history in Middle-Earth. In this version, the interplay of who became Eldar and who became Avari is also quite interesting. It also raises questions regarding who should have been Avari, and why.

In the The War of the Jewels version of the Elf awakening, the Elves had already split into three tribes by the time Orome found them (note: the two additional tribes mentioned in the “Morgoth’s Ring” version are gone). The Vanyar are the smallest group, and the Teleri are by far the largest. As told in “The Silmarillion,” Orome encountered the Elves, and took their three leaders to Valinor. As in The Sil, the three leaders advise taking the journey into the West.

This version becomes much more detailed regarding exactly what happened to the three tribes when their leaders start the journey. The Vanyar, predictably, all pack up and move to Valinor. However, the Noldor actually split 50/50! Fully half of the Noldor chose to remain at Cuivenien, and became Avari.

The Teleri, of all the tribes, were least inclined to go to Valinor. However, the Teleri also had a sense of group cohesion which came into play when it became apparent that their leaders were going to Valinor in any event. The great majority of Teleri started the journey to the West; in the end, the number of Teleri who became Avari were equal to the number of Noldor, despite the tribe being much larger. Of course, not all the Teleri made it to Aman; the Nandor and Sindar were split off from the group which did make it to Aman.

This version of the “great split” actually details some of what happened afterward. The Avari did eventually drift west and make contact with the Noldor, Sindar, and Nandor. The Noldor did not get along well with their Avari cousins; the Noldor considered them rustics, and the Avari considered the Noldor to be arrogant. By contrast, the Avari who were related to the Teleri mixed in fairly well with the Nandor and Sindar, and integrated themselves within their communities.

One question which is of some interest, which was raised in this version was: who were truly meant to be Avari? Not surprisingly, the Noldor and Nandor/Sindar pointed fingers at each other. The Noldor, as the loremasters and craftsmen, pointed out what they considered to be the indolence of the Teleri in general. They claimed that most of the Teleri would have been happy to stay in Middle-Earth (true), and that only those who remained to find Thingol really lamented the loss of their chance to live in Valinor. Essentially, the Noldor thought that the Teleri were content with the status quo and did not really desire the enlightenment, skills, and knowledge which the Noldor obtained as a result of living in Valinor; all things that the Noldor perceived as advancement and improvement.

The Teleri in Middle-Earth, of course, took a different viewpoint. It did not escape their attention that half of the Noldor refused the great journey, far more than the Teleri, percentagewise. Moreover, the Noldor were in Valinor, and came back, not just for the Silmarils, but alsofor lands and kingdoms of their own. Furthermore, the Teleri noted that, compared to themselves, the Noldor were a contentious group, prone to internal disputes and infighting. The largest of these simmering disputes, of course, was the schism between the House of Feanor and the other Noldor, a schism so severe that the Feanoreans removed themselves to the other side of Belariand. In the Telarin view, the Noldor were a quarrelsome lot who needed the wider spaces of Middle-Earth to settle their quarrels.

So, in light of this situation, a few questions come up:

1. Who has the better argument? Are the less ambitious but peaceful Teleri, or the more ambitious but also contentious Noldor meant to be the “true Avari,” more fit for Middle-Earth than Valinor?
2. Is being Avari such a bad thing? Leaving aside the Ulmo v. the rest of the Valar argument that the Elves should have stayed in Middle-Earth, once the Elves were summoned to Valinor, how wrong was it to refuse the summons? (Parenthetically, I think I have more sympathy for the Avari position than Tolkien did).
3. Does anyone else perceive in Tolkien a belief that there was a clear choice to be made at the time the Elves were summoned to Aman? And is the clarity of this decision based primarily on the benefits of removing to Aman, or on acknowledgment of the Valar as authority figures?

I have a couple of thoughts on these issues; I look forward to seeing what everyone else has to say on this topic. Enjoy!
cirdaneth
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on: June 22, 2014 02:59
Now here's a meaty subject, lain dormant for far too long. Any thoughts?
tarcolan
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on: June 22, 2014 04:17
It always bothered me that the Valar insisted the Elves come to Valinor to protect them from Melkor. Was that in the original music/plan? It didn't pan out well in the end, did it?
Gandolorin
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on: June 22, 2014 06:13
Tarc, that gets us into the discussion of predestination and free will. How much of the Music of the Ainur was detailed predestination? And "it is stated" that in the part of the Music concerning the Children of Eru, none of the Ainur participated (thus having no knowledge of it). Errr ... so who sang this part, Eru himself?
Perhaps a discussion for another thread (unless flogged to death in far earlier threads that I don't know about).
For Arvegil's questions to make sense, we need to assume free will.

[Edited on 06/23/2014 by Gandolorin]
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cirdaneth
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on: June 23, 2014 03:21
I've bumped the Fate/Free Will thread for discussion, so that we can carry on with tribal dynamics here. Hve fun.
tarcolan
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on: June 23, 2014 10:42
The questions require consideration of the motivations of both the Valar and the Elves. Much to consider.
Loreanna
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on: June 23, 2014 03:46
Truly meaty and interesting! A bit confused, though, am I. Didn't all Teleri who stayed behind in Beleriand later become known as Sindar? Weren't the Avari those who refused to follow from the beginning? Where were they, then, the whole time? And did this group later become part of the Silvan Elves? I'll do my homework, but can you help me out? Many thanks!
Elthir
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on: June 24, 2014 09:26
This might help but maybe not, I don't know

I wrote it some time ago, concerning The Silvan Elves but which also touches upon the Question of Eldar.

In a late text it is noted that the Silvan Elves or Tawarwaith were in origin Teleri, descended from those who were daunted by the Misty Mountains and lingered in the Anduin Vale. They were thus akin to the Green Elves of Ossiriand (who eventually migrated to Beleriand), but had themselves hid '... in woodland fastnesses beyond the Misty Mountains, and became a small and scattered people, hardly to be distinguished from Avari...' (from the History of Galadriel and Celeborn Appendix A, The Silvan Elves And Their Speech, Unfinished Tales).

The Avarin question is a bit more complicated. In the essay Quendi And Eldar (1959-60) there is description related to Avarin migrations not only to the Anduin Vale (and thus mixing with the Telerin Tawarwaith), but to Beleriand itself -- it was noted, for example, that somewhat later the Sindar became aware of Avari, who had crept in small and secret groups into Beleriand from the South.

However in a later text, Of Dwarves And Men, Tolkien wrote: 'Those who had never made the journey to the West Shores were called 'the Refusers' (Avari). It is doubtful if any of the Avari ever reached Beleriand or were actually known to the Numenoreans.'

This much would still seem to allow for an Avarin element in the Anduin Vale however, though again The Silvan Elves and their Speech is also later than Q&E and doesn't seem to specifically (at least) note that some Avari had merged with them.

Considering Tolkien-published text and 'late unpublished' text, I first note Robert Foster's entries (The Complete Guide to Middle-Earth): 'East-Elves The Silvan Elves

Silvan Elves 'Those tribes of Elves who were not of the Eldar, than whom (...) The Silvan Elves are probably to be identified with the Avari (...) They may also have included the surviving Nandor who did not enter Beleriand.'


So Foster draws the not unnatural Avarin conclusion (noting 'probably' too), and given that he uses the 1977 Silmarillion as a source, he adds the bit about the Nandor. His entry is based on description Tolkien himself published (cited below), plus a bit that he did not publish himself, in Silmarillion. Draft examples of Appendix F aside, looking at what Tolkien decided to publish:

'The Elves far back in the Elder Days became divided into two main branches: the West-elves (the Eldar) and the East-elves. Of the latter kind were most of the elven-folk of Mirkwood and Lorien; but their languages do not appear in this history, of which all of the Elvish names and words are of Eldarin form.*

*In Lorien at this period Sindarin was spoken, though with an 'accent', since most of its folk were of Silvan origin (...) But Lorien, Caras Galadhon, Amroth, Nimrodel are probably of Silvan origin, adapted to Sindarin.'



It seems here that the East-elves are 'not Eldar' nor their languages Eldarin.

Moreover, according to The Lord of the Rings, Eldar refers to the three kindreds who sought for the Undying Realm and came there are the beginning of days, save the Sindar only (Appendix F). So again the East-elves are not considered Eldar, and 'West-elves' includes West Over Sea, and apparently the far West of Old Middle-earth (Beleriand. The Sindar migrated very much West if not Over Sea).

Incidentally I note an entry for Eldar from the more recently published The Children of Hurin edited by Christopher Tolkien: 'Eldar The Elves of the Great Journey out of the East to Beleriand.'

Interesting version from CJRT here

And we also know from Tolkien-published text (as Legolas relates for example) that the Silvan Elves of Lorien passed Over Sea at times. Interestingly, in Appendix F JRRT did not specifically follow 'East-elves' with Avari, despite that he followed West-elves with Eldar.


If JRRT was going to stick by what he published in The Lord of the Rings (and did not revise in the 1960s when the chance came), can his Telerin Tawarwaith idea fit in?

I think so

[Edited on 06/24/2014 by Elthir]
Elthir
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on: June 26, 2014 11:35
I'll try a simpler answer, plus comment about the Sindar...

Didn't all Teleri who stayed behind in Beleriand later become known as Sindar?


Basically yes. Tolkien does break down the Sindar into further groups in Beleriand, and goes into other details, but yes the Sindar were those Teleri of Beleriand who didn't pass Over Sea when their other Telerin brothers did, in the First Age.


Weren't the Avari those who refused to follow from the beginning?


Yes. Tolkien also adds detail here too: none of the first clan became Avari for instance [they became known as the Vanyar], but there were Avari within the Second and Third clans...

... and as noted in the long post above [not mine but earlier, but still based on Tolkien's Quendi And Eldar], certain Elves began to claim other Elves were 'really Avari' at heart, for various reasons, even if they did not 'refuse' the March from the outset.


Where were they, then, the whole time? And did this group later become part of the Silvan Elves? I'll do my homework, but can you help me out? Many thanks!


That's where it gets confusing: Quendi and Eldar says some of the Avari eventually migrated to the Anduin Vale and even Beleriand! It generally mentions the names of some Avarin groups too.

A late text [Of Dwarves And Men] appears to negate any Avari in Beleriand however, leaving the reader wondering: does that mean no Avari in the Anduin Vale too? And then another late note states that the Silvan Elves or Mirkwood were Telerin in origin, hardly to be distinguished from Avari...

... which arguably distinguishes them however! I mean if they were Avari of course they would hardly be distinguished from Avari! On the other hand, is Tolkien simply being 'silent' here about Avari ultimately merging with these Teleri at some point? Silence is not an easy arguement on the third hand however.

So one wonders what the 'final' decision is here.

And if you are one to take what Tolkien himself published, we only know that the East-elves of Mirkwood and Lorien are not Eldar -- which in my opinion doesn't necessarily mean they must be Avari, as it depends upon the definition of Eldar and Avari*

Also author-published is the detail that the Elves of Lorien [and Legolas at least, whose father was Sindarin in any case], sailed Over Sea. In general to me it doesn't seem to be a very Avari-ish quality to sail Over Sea or want to [then one is hardly 'refusing' to go West], but then again we might have only some Avari among these East-elves, while the other Telerin East-elves sail Over Sea.

For this question you might have to delve into... gasp, personal canon


Okay, still a longish post.

_____
*if the East-elves are those Elves who began the March they can arguably be 'not Avari' but then if they never reach Beleriand they can also arguably be 'not Eldar' -- again depends upon which definition of Eldar you go with, but perhaps they can be in a 'middle' position if you chose the meaning of Eldar published in The Lord of the Rings...

... if it can be made to work from a linguistic point of view too.

[Edited on 06/26/2014 by Elthir]
Loreanna
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on: June 27, 2014 03:17
This has been very helpful indeed. Thank you very much, Elthir, and a good weekend to all. And I shall continue studying because this world is simply fascinating!
Tyrhael
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on: July 12, 2014 09:42
tarcolan said:It always bothered me that the Valar insisted the Elves come to Valinor to protect them from Melkor. Was that in the original music/plan? It didn't pan out well in the end, did it?

My reply is quite late, but Tolkien did address this question in a mid-1960s essay on the natures and visible shapes of the Valar and Maiar, found in Parma Eldalamberon 17:

Oromë had brought three emissaries "to Valinor to the council of the Valar at which it was resolved to invite all the Elves who were willing to remove and dwell in the Far West under the protection of the Valar and out of the reach of Morgoth" (176).

Tolkien notes that the Valar were "'on trial' — an aspect of the mystery of 'free will' in created intelligences. They had a sufficient knowledge of the will of Eru and his 'design' to undertake the responsibility of guiding its development by means of the great prowess given to them and according to their own reason and intelligence" (177).

However, "the invitation given to the Eldar to remove to Valinor and live unendangered by Melkor was not in fact according to the design of Eru. It arose from anxiety, and it might be said from failure to trust in Eru, from anxiety and fear of Melkor, and the decision of the Eldar to accept the invitation was due to the overwhelming effect of their contact, while still in their inexperienced youth, with the bliss of Aman and the beauty and majesty of the Valar. It had disastrous consequences in diminishing the Elves of Middle-earth and so depriving Men of a large measure of the intended help and teaching of their elder 'brethren', and exposing them more dangerously to the power and deceits of Melkor. Also since it was in fact alien to the nature of the Elves to live under protection in Aman, and not (as was intended) in Middle-earth, one consequence was the revolt of the Noldor." (178-9).
tarcolan
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on: July 13, 2014 09:48
Thanks Tyrhael.
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