Welcome Guest 

Register

Forum Home » Movies Discussion » Discuss the Movies » ROTK EE Sequence by Sequence #1: The Voice of Saruman
12
Author Topic:
Figwit
Book Club Moderator & Misty Mountain Monster
Posts: 1966
Send Message
Avatar
Post ROTK EE Sequence by Sequence #1: The Voice of Saruman
on: December 12, 2004 01:28
Yes people! The Extended Edition of 'The Return of the King' has arrived at the Figwit Mansion, which means we can begin with the last ever Sequence by Sequence series!

And we'll begin at the beginning, with the - at least by me - most expected scene of all: The Voice of Saruman. And thanks to Beleg_S, I can now direct you towards movie caps from this scene (101!) right here!

Did you like the scene as it turned out? How did you like the confrontation between Gandalf and Saruman? Did you appreciate the way PJ chose to kill off Saruman and Gríma? What would you have changed?

And of course, our constumary poll:

[Edited on 19/12/2004 by Figwit]
I prefer the theatrical edition
0% (0)
I prefer the EE because it finishes Saruman's story
45% (2)
I prefer the EE because it has the confrontation with Théoden
24% (1)
I prefer the EE because of Gríma's rebellion
10% (5)
I prefer the EE because of Saruman's death
4% (2)
I wanted to see this part, but PJ ruined it
18% (9)
IntotheWest23
Council Member
Posts: 75
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: ROTK EE Sequence by Sequence #1: The Voice of Saruman
on: December 12, 2004 03:25
i haven't seen it yet but i took the poll anyway because i know what happens.

i put because it finishes saruman's story. you know at the end, how they have the cast list? the even had sean bean, who was in it for like a second (but it was still great) and they didn't put Saruman, who was also an important character.

that's what i put. two more days for me! :love:
neowyn
Council Member
Posts: 34
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: ROTK EE Sequence by Sequence #1: The Voice of Saruman
on: December 12, 2004 04:05
Great, the time t discuss the EE has finally begun!!
Well, I voted for the Theoden confrontation option, since it was what made more sense to me of the way they worked the scene. Somewhere, I think maybe the confrontation between Gandalf and Saruman wasn't as powerful as I expected, and the Theoden and Saruman confrontation became the leading moment of it. I don't know if I'm explaining myself well, but something happened there that didn't make the scene as great as I thought it would be, I think it was to... rushed? I'm not sure which word to use (I can think of a lot in Spanish) but the thing is that I believe that it was done almost out of duty, because thay had to, and they left out the heart of it. I know this sounds as if I didn't like the scene, and I did, a lot... but it just was a scene from a movie, in some ways it lost the magic and feeling that this movie has... Still, loved it, and I insist, Theoden's reaction to Saruman's words was what made it al work... He wasn't willing to fall under saruman's spell, but Saruman did touch a fragile fiber, Theoden does have a huge conflict with feeling he wasn't who led his people to victory, and the text he later has at Rohan's celebration makes much more sense now (in the movie, of course in the book we have that information). Well, that's my thought... and I've only seen it once, so I guess it's just a first impression.

[Edited on 12/12/2004 by neowyn]
Melmë
Council Member
Posts: 32
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: ROTK EE Sequence by Sequence #1: The Voice of Saruman
on: December 12, 2004 04:18
I like the EE version better because it shows what happens to Saruman. And it shows the power of Saruman's voice eventhough it is not as obvious or as powerfull as in the books. You do see some doubt in the faces of the characters when Saruman speaks. And this to me seems like what Saruman is saying does make them doubt theur decisions.
Eruantalincë
CoE Volunteer
Posts: 298
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: ROTK EE Sequence by Sequence #1: The Voice of Saruman
on: December 12, 2004 11:13
I think this is a great sequence and I loved it. Christopher Lee's voice is sweet and tempting, and can still force people into his will, with or without raising the volume.

I would have liked to see the tempting quality of the voice more. Like Éomer or one of the soldiers tempted and doubting after listening to Saruman's voice. that would make it even more powerful.
~Narya~
Council Member
Posts: 15
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: ROTK EE Sequence by Sequence #1: The Voice of Saruman
on: December 12, 2004 11:40
In the books this confrontation was one of my favourite parts. I can´t say the EE made it justice. It would be harsh to say that PJ ruined it though - I am, although a bit disappointed, glad the included it.

I have to agree with Neowyn - it felt rushed (which I think is my biggest objection). I never felt that Saruman truly tempted anyone. Bernard Hill was excellent as usual, but as soon as Saruman had finished the replied with anger.

I didn´t like the confrontation bw Gandalf and Saruman at all. I thought the bolt of fire was so unnecessary. Saruman was after all defeated. He only had his voice - or should have had only his voice. The phrase "your staff is broken" would have been more ... I am searching for words ... dignified, if it had been delievered without an preceding attack. And the EE made it sound like Gandalf wanted Saruman alive just because he had information - not the case.

I did like that the ending in some aspect were true to the book. Grima did stab Saruman, and Grima got shot.

I am curious what Figwit has to say - you always express it so well.
Figwit
Book Club Moderator & Misty Mountain Monster
Posts: 1966
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: ROTK EE Sequence by Sequence #1: The Voice of Saruman
on: December 12, 2004 11:37
Finally! An excuse to make lengthy ranting posts in the Movies Forum again! :love:

Anyway, this is the part I looked forward to the most. I was very disappointed when it wasn't in the theatrical version - as were most people. Right now, I'm even more disappointed that I never got to see it on the big screen, because from a cinematographic point of view the scene was amazing.

Let's begin at the beginning: Saruman was - as ever - amazing. I missed something though - I don't think the power of his voice was put forward as well as it could have. I had expected it to sound more ethereal, or echo or something like that - in this scene Christopher Lee's amazing deep voice (which was one of the best casting decisions made) sounded like a cheap voice-over and this took away a lot of its power.

I liked that some of those sarcastic insults from the book were used, but I have to agree with Neowyn and ~Narya~, it all felt very rushed. Part of the strength of Saruman is that he can just talk and talk and talk - not just the sound of his voice but especially the words they speak sounding like truth to his audience. This effect was lost in Théoden's quick response: none of the companions was ever really under the influence, it seems.

Théoden was brilliant. He was bitter, but proud; angry but very dignified in his reply. I adored the way Saruman insulted Théoden by calling him 'a lesser son of greater kings', and how this was later picked up by Théoden in the stirrup-cup-scene. Bernard Hill really was amazing as Théoden in ROTK, which makes the mess in TTT even more sad to think of.

As for the confrontation with Gandalf itself, I was totally utterly completely disappointed. Gandalf came across as a witty marshall trying to gain information before a battle - not showing pity for the sake of pity itself (contrary to Théoden, which I'll talk about later). And the Special Appearance of the Box With Wizardy Tricks - ack! There was no need for that, it wasn't even possible: Saruman had already lost all his power, all he was left with was his malice, his cunning and his voice. The breaking of the staff could, as ~Ñarya~ said, be a lot more powerful if it had been a token of Gandalf's new position as leader of his order in stead of mere revenge. It all looked very very cheap to me.

Compared to this, the scene between Théoden and Gríma was bookie heaven: Théoden offering his pity out of kindness, recognizing the man Gríma once was. I know that in the book this was not so, and Gandalf had to speak for Gríma, but Théoden did offer it and repeatedly even. Gríma's acceptance (in stabbing Saruman, he makes his choice for Théoden and against Saruman) was played beautifully by Brad Dourif, who remains one of the most underestimated actors in the trilogy to me.

Leading us to the deaths of both gentleman.
I liked that Gríma stabbed Saruman, keeping true to the book, but everything after got a heartfelt 'Sod off PJ' from me. I mean, really, I can see the irony of having Saruman fall to his death on one of his own spiked wheels, I can. But no one as much as blinked when the men disappeared under the water. Where was the crumbling of his body, which he had no need for anymore? Where was the fading of his spirit, looking to the west but being blown into the east? Why wasn't Saruman portrayed as what he is, a Maia? It would have a) done more justice to Saruman, b) finally explained that wizards aren't just 'very smart men' and c) done wonders for Gandalf, because he too is just a 'very smart old dude' if the whole Maia-thing is not honoured.
Worst of all, there was Treebeard's: 'The filth of Saruman is washing away.' There could be no greater contrast with the gentle Ent who couldn't keep any living creature caged, and set the wizard and his pupil free out of kindness and pity.

That's without mentioning Gríma being shot. In the book, this fitted, because it was a stupid Hobbit who had not grasp on the situation, who didn't understand what had just passed. But *Legolas*?????? Legolas, who in the movies was portrayed as such an old and wise Elf? SHOOTS Gríma? What were the writers thinking? It just doesn't make sense to me! Why not have Gamling or some anonymous Rohir do the task, if you must have him shot (and you must, I suppose, to keep true to the book even if the setting is completely different).
I suppose this was one of those 'let's allow Legsy to do something'-moments, but it all felt very wrong and out of character to me. Legolas deserves better.

On the whole, I feel Saruman (and Christopher Lee) deserved better. But there are some major up-sides to this scene which makes me think of it as one of the most important and best added scenes on the EE:
- It concludes the Isengard story-arch, very very important. That's what I voted for.
- It portrays Théoden as a good man, not as easily corrupted as we were led to believe in TTT, proud but also merciful (towards Gríma) and vulnerable ('It was not Théoden of Rohan who led our people to victory.'). Bernard Hill did an excisite job.
- As did Brad Dourif. Gríma was one of the characters who were improved, imho, between book and movie because it was easier to see where he came from, and to pity him or feel sympathy for him. So I was very glad that in the end he did turn against his master, serving his King.
- Great cinematography, as I said. Especially the shot where the camera circles Orthanc a couple of times is breath taking, and I would have very much wanted to see it on the big screen, because it looked amazing.
I also, liked the way Saruman was often filmed from the top, rising out over his audience.
- Extended Éomer, of course!

On the whole, I liked the scene and I was glad to finally have seen it. But, it could have been a lot better if PJ had stayed closer to the book. Though I have a feeling that all of this arose from a misunderstanding on the part of the scriptwriters about the whole Istari-thing...
Void
Council Member
Posts: 6
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: ROTK EE Sequence by Sequence #1: The Voice of Saruman
on: December 14, 2004 06:43
The scene played ok but I was expecting more. The first thing that bugged me was how Theoden was able to talk to Saruman/Grima who were atop a 200ft tower, without needing to shout. I can accept that Saruman could project his magical voice (suppose Gandalf could do the same- he is Saruman as he should have been) yet at times, Theoden was talking to them both like he was a couple of feet away from them.

I also felt that Treebeard would have had something to say to Saruman given that he’d orchestrated the destruction of a large part of Fangorn forest. In fact no one said much to Treebeard (that’s gratitude for you!), and no one went “blimey a talking tree!” when they first laid eyes on him. No reaction or real interaction whatsoever. They just got the confrontation over with and then rode off.

However I did love the way that the magnificant music built to a crescendo at the exact moment Saruman retorts “giblets and crows!” The dialogue and performances were very good but the effects were clearly not of the highest quality. The flaming effect that surrounded Gandalf looked like budget TV show standard, as did the bit where Saruman’s staff is broken.

Both the deaths were fitting I suppose though I agree with the previous post that one of the main characters wouldn't/shouldn't kill Grima for killing Saruman.
Aervir
Council Member
Posts: 120
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: ROTK EE Sequence by Sequence #1: The Voice of Saruman
on: December 15, 2004 12:47
Yay, the Return of the Scene by Scene Threads! :disco: I haven't anything to contribute yet, because I still have to see the EE, but I just wanted to share my happiness about these posts with you all! I am especially looking forward to reading all your lengthy rants, Figwit.
Figwit
Book Club Moderator & Misty Mountain Monster
Posts: 1966
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: ROTK EE Sequence by Sequence #1: The Voice of Saruman
on: December 15, 2004 08:25
I also felt that Treebeard would have had something to say to Saruman given that he’d orchestrated the destruction of a large part of Fangorn forest. In fact no one said much to Treebeard (that’s gratitude for you!), and no one went “blimey a talking tree!” when they first laid eyes on him. No reaction or real interaction whatsoever. They just got the confrontation over with and then rode off.


Oh I quite agree! So much was changed at the beginning that I even forgot about the whole Ents-Rohirrim confrontation thing. There's this lovely painting by Ted Nasmith (which you can find here), which I think would have been amazing if they'd added it in the movie... But well...
Gildor-Inglorion
Elvellon ar Pethdan
Posts: 296
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: ROTK EE Sequence by Sequence #1: The Voice of Saruman
on: December 15, 2004 08:49
Maybe we should put together a few scenes to shoot of our own .

Honestly though, it wouldn't be too hard to get a bunch of fans to find parts they missed and go out and shoot 'em. I'm seriously thinking about shooting a few scenes myself just for the fun of it. It won't be 35mm film with Viggo, Elijah, and Lee but it would be interesting nonetheless !

That or perhaps segments of the Sil.... hmmm

I wonder how tightly the Tolkien regulates this sort of thing. Some people are perfectly fine with fan films but others shut 'em down quick. I know Lucas loves fan films and even gives out awards to the best ones!

EDIT: Guess I should comment on the main subject of the thread!

I voted for the confrontation with Saruman and Theoden. I wasn't particuarily fond of the rest of the scene. Especially that darn fireball....

[Edited on 12/15/2004 by Gildor-Inglorion]
Nimmirvain
Council Member
Posts: 19
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: ROTK EE Sequence by Sequence #1: The Voice of Saruman
on: December 15, 2004 12:19
"I wanted to see this part, but PJ ruined it"

Please don't hate, but I chose this one. I was so glad that Peter Jackson had decided to put this in, and I enjoyed most of it (I cheered when Gandalf broke his staff, and I enjoyed hearing all the lines from the book), but it was utterly ruined for me in the end. My biggest beef with it, and something that made me upset, was that Legolas killed Grima. I actually didn't grasp why he did this, and I still don't know if how my husband explained it is really the reason, but I just don't see him arbitrarily slaughtering someone, especially given the circumstances. I mean, what in the world did Grima do to deserve it? My hubby said it was because Saruman was about to tell them something important, but even so - why does that deserve killing? I took it that Grima was just fed up with Saruman, couldn't take him anymore, and finally rebeled, so then how could Legolas - or any of the others there - blame him for that. I mean, Theoden was trying his hardest to get Grima to do just that! I don't understand it, I don't like it, and it ruined the whole thing for me. If anyone else has a good explanation of the why's and wherefore's of Grima being killed, then please, by all means, enlighten me. This part of the scene destroyed what would have otherwise been a great addition for me.
neowyn
Council Member
Posts: 34
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: ROTK EE Sequence by Sequence #1: The Voice of Saruman
on: December 15, 2004 12:40
Well Nimmirvain, the only explanation I find to this, although it still doesn't justify it, is that they just had to have Grima killed to end his story and to respect what happens in the book. The thing is, in the book, Grima is killed by hobbits in a sort of "self defense" thing... here, there was just no reason to it, besides from the narrative need of the mivie to have him die. This what I believe at least
Shadow_fax
Council Member
Posts: 95
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: ROTK EE Sequence by Sequence #1: The Voice of Saruman
on: December 15, 2004 02:33
I had the thought when watching the Film that Legolas killing Wormtongue with his arrow was to represent the hobbit bowmen who killed Wormtongue in the Scouring of the Shire.
That may be just my thinking though.
Anarane_Taralom
Council Member
Posts: 4
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: ROTK EE Sequence by Sequence #1: The Voice of Saruman
on: December 15, 2004 05:43
Hi everyone. I also have mixed feelings about the Saruman scene. I'm very glad that there was some sort of closure. It was ridiculous that he was completely left out of the theatrical version. However, I agree that the scene was lacking.

I loved the interchange with Theoden, which explains a number of his later lines, including his dying words about going to join his fathers where he won't know.. is it fear or shame?... something like that. I thought Saruman's death was interesting.. but I couldn't help but wonder why his legs didn't bend as he was going under the water; he stayed perfectly upright. It also explained how the Palantir ended up in the water.

I don't know how I feel about Legolas killing Grima. At the time, I basically thought it was ok that at least the manner of their deaths was similar to how they are in the book. I guess in a way he kind of killed a harmless person, but on the other hand, there must have been some uncertainty as to what Grima would do next.

Overall, I'm glad the scene was there, just a bit disappointed in how it turned out.
Aervir
Council Member
Posts: 120
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: ROTK EE Sequence by Sequence #1: The Voice of Saruman
on: December 16, 2004 12:17
Now that I've finally finally seen at least the first half of the EE, I can put in my two cents' worth in this thread as well. I voted for the last option of the poll: "I wanted to see that scene, but PJ ruined it for me."
Perhaps "ruin" is too strong a word, but I was quite disappointed: Although they did use some of the best dialogue bits from the books (I just love Theóden's hang from your tower as a gibbet for the sport of your own crows), and it was delivered very powerfully by Bernard Hill), the scene was far too short to make the seductive power of Saruman's voice understandable. What a pity, considering the fact that Christopher Lee is such a fine actor with such a wonderful voice, who might even be able to make the phone book of London sound interesting.
And while the film version of this scene does a lot for Grima, Treebeard's and Legolas's character is butchered -- I couldn't see why Legolas suddenly shot Grima with no apparent reason, and I didn't like the fact that the Ent seemed to gloat over Saruman's death.
All in all, it was altogether awful, but it was a bit of a letdown for me.

Edited: Sentence above should read: "It was not altogether awful, but.." Freudian slip?

[Edited on 17/12/2004 by Aervir]
Morwinyoniel
Gallery Admin & Realm Head of Estë
Posts: 1637
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: ROTK EE Sequence by Sequence #1: The Voice of Saruman
on: December 16, 2004 02:55
I voted for the "I prefer the EE because it finishes Saruman's story" option. Yet, I'm not quite happy with the scene either.

As for many others here, my main peeves are that Saruman's ability to manipulate people with his voice didn't really come out in any way, and that Legolas shooting Gríma just like that was completely off character. The only explanation I can come up with is that, Legolas tried to prevent Gríma from killing Saruman... Like someone here suggested, Théoden could have had a few soldiers as his escort (like he had in the book), and one of them could have killed Wormtongue - that way, it would have been more believable.

I've always thought that, even in the books, Saruman didn't completely lose his powers until his staff was broken, but making him resort to throwing firebolts at Gandalf somehow diminished the character, making him just like any garden-variety wizard in fantasy tales. And, Gandalf's motivation of persuading Saruman to turn back to the "good" side should have been shown as stronger than just his desire to get vital information.

Also, Treebeard's "filth of Saruman" line sounds badly out of place in this version. In the TE, it was justified; here, it should have been left out completely, or at least said in some other connection.
MirkwoodsArcher
Council Member
Posts: 99
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: ROTK EE Sequence by Sequence #1: The Voice of Saruman
on: December 16, 2004 05:52
I thought the scene was cool, but then I can't remember what happened in the books

I do agree that Treebeard should have said something to him but maybe he had be shouting at Saruman before they arrived
Nimmirvain
Council Member
Posts: 19
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: ROTK EE Sequence by Sequence #1: The Voice of Saruman
on: December 16, 2004 12:27
The fact that an elf, wise and who should just KNOW BETTER, shot Grima is the thing that bothered me. Someone suggest soldiers of Rohan would have been better as the avatar of Grima's demise, and I agree with that. To follow the book, it should have been someone who wasn't fully aware of the situation and did it by a sort of accident. NOT one of the lead characters, and certainly not one who would never do such a thing out of stupidity, or even spite.

Also, the whole Treebeard gloating thing was brought up, and I didn't even realize it while I was watching the movie, but you're absolutely right! I don't believe, based on what Professor Tolkien wrote, that an Ent would ever gloat over anyone's death.
Lindir
Council Member
Posts: 69
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: ROTK EE Sequence by Sequence #1: The Voice of Saruman
on: December 16, 2004 01:53
I have not yet seen *sheds a tear that so many people have watched the splendor that is RotK EE before me*, yet I have heard much about this particular scene. Legolas fan all the way. He's great. However, please note that I am not a Legolas fangirl - there is a difference, believe me.

Ok. Methinks - having read the book *obviously, otherwise my name would not be Lindir* - that the whole Legolas-shoots-Grima-then-everyone-goes-home-for-tea-and-crumpets thingy is completely wrong. At first I was in favour - Grima does, after all, die via an arrow, and it seemed logical to me that - seeing as there was never going to be a Scouring of the Shire - Legolas should shoot Grima. He is the master Elven archer and all of that. But it does not make any sense. Grima had never actually done anything to him, and surely Grima heeding Theoden's words was a good thing? Thoroughly out of character for the guy who allowed a certain devious creature under his father's charge to climb trees so that he could feel the wind on his face. Clearly the kind of person who would shoot someone for doing something right in their life. Yep.

But hey. This is movie making. Who cares if it totally throws a character in such an extreme manner? It's all for the sake of entertainment.

I shall return when I have actually seen the EE.

Lindir
luthienkenobi
Council Member
Posts: 753
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: ROTK EE Sequence by Sequence #1: The Voice of Saruman
on: December 16, 2004 02:25
I liked it..but I really didn't like the way that Grima stabbed him in the back. I also didn't really like the fact that Legolas shot Grima.
Void
Council Member
Posts: 6
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: ROTK EE Sequence by Sequence #1: The Voice of Saruman
on: December 17, 2004 12:56
Maybe Eomer would have been a better candidate for rashly killing Grima? He has/had the motive and his actions could have provided a stong contrast to those of the reconciliatory Theoden's nobility.
Nimmirvain
Council Member
Posts: 19
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: ROTK EE Sequence by Sequence #1: The Voice of Saruman
on: December 17, 2004 07:26
Maybe Eomer would have been a better candidate for rashly killing Grima? He has/had the motive and his actions could have provided a stong contrast to those of the reconciliatory Theoden's nobility.


I'd never thought of it, but that would have been much better and made much more sense to me.
Figwit
Book Club Moderator & Misty Mountain Monster
Posts: 1966
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: ROTK EE Sequence by Sequence #1: The Voice of Saruman
on: December 17, 2004 07:43
Maybe Eomer would have been a better candidate for rashly killing Grima? He has/had the motive and his actions could have provided a stong contrast to those of the reconciliatory Theoden's nobility.


I guess it would make sense, more than Legolas' bold move anyway - but I don't think it's very Éomer-ish to go against his King now that he's all restored to himself again... Mmmm... There's just something fundamentally wrong with this scene, when it comes to killing Gríma. The one and the other just can't happen together.
RubySandybanks
CoE Volunteer
Posts: 115
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: ROTK EE Sequence by Sequence #1: The Voice of Saruman
on: December 17, 2004 11:56
I think the confrontation with Saruman starts out well. Saruman’s voice is pleasant and non-confrontational. Had his voice continued in the same tone the whole scene would have seemed more true to the power of his voice. I have to agree with Figwit:
I had expected it to sound more ethereal, or echo or something like that…
I agree that the confrontation with Saruman was too short. A few more moments would have given the actors enough time to at least look like they were under the influence of Saruman’s voice.
Théoden was brilliant. He was bitter, but proud; angry but very dignified in his reply. ~ Figwit
Oh yes, he was incredible!

Here’s some of my favourite lines from the scene:

Saruman: You have fought many wars and slain many men, Théoden King and made peace afterwards. Can we not take counsel together as we once did, my old friend? Can we not have peace, you and l?

Théoden: We shall have peace. We shall have peace. When you answer for the burning of the Westfold and the children that lie dead there! We shall have peace. When the lives of the soldiers whose bodies were hewn even as they lay dead against the gates of the Hornburg, are avenged! When you hang from a gibbet for the sport of your own crows. We shall have peace.

Saruman: Gibbets and crows? Dotard!

I loved the look on Gandalf’s face when Saruman says this: (Ian McKellen is so incredible at showing emotion).

Saruman: Gandalf does not hesitate to sacrifice those closest to him. Those he professes to love. Tell me, what words of comfort did you give the Halfling before you sent him to his doom? The path that you have set him on can only lead to death.

Poor Gandalf.

And I agree with Figwit when she says," the scene between Théoden and Gríma was bookie heaven: Théoden offering his pity out of kindness, recognizing the man Gríma once was." It also sounds like Frodo in The Scouring of the Shire , doesn’t it?

Then Saruman says:
What is the house of Rohan but a thatched barn where brigands drink in the reek and their brats roll on the floor with the dogs? The victory at Helm's Deep does not belong to you, Théoden Horse-master. You are a lesser son of greater sires.
Or was it Kings? The word 'sires' seems a lot more biting but I could be wrong.

Great sarcasm. Ouch.

It did not make sense to me at all that Legolas should shoot Gríma with an arrow. It seemed so clear to anyone watching that Gríma had chosen Théoden over Saruman. Legolas came off looking like a cold-blooded murderer. There was absolutely no reason to kill Gríma at that point. And I agree Brad Dourif was awesome in this scene. (And all of his scenes come to think of it)
There's just something fundamentally wrong with this scene, when it comes to killing Gríma. The one and the other just can't happen together. ~ Figwit
I couldn’t agree more. I don’t think Éomer would have been a good candidate for killing Gríma either even though he (at least) had some motive; whereas, Legolas did not. It goes too much against one of Tolkien’s favourite principles ~ that is that kinfolk shall not kill kinfolk.

It was a poor ending for Saruman. Quite unspectacular really. He died like an ordinary man. A Maia deserved better. Even Saruman.

It really was great cinematography.

I wonder how differently I’d feel if I hadn’t read the book? It’s too late for that though.

IMHO, it’s just as well this scene was left out of the theatrical release. Parts of it are well done but...

It’s great to finally see it though and at least it gives some kind of closure. So that's what I voted for.

Just a thought ~ Saruman’s use of fire magic could lead viewers to wonder why he didn’t just throw a fireball at Treebeard, burn him up and escape?

I’m looking forward to hearing what Peter Jackson says about this scene in his commentary.
pottedplant
Council Member
Posts: 4
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: ROTK EE Sequence by Sequence #1: The Voice of Saruman
on: December 18, 2004 10:49
Ok. I have a theory of why Legolas shot Grima. You see, they needed Saruman to talk, right? Legolas may have shot Grima because he was killing their source of information. Grima himself wouldn't be of much use because he's a lackey. So maybe Legolas hoped that if Grima stopped stabbing Saruman, there'd be a chance that Saruman could survive and help them.
LinweSingollo
Movies & Casting Mod, Resident Hobbit & Frodo's Footstool
Posts: 3292
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: ROTK EE Sequence by Sequence #1: The Voice of Saruman
on: December 18, 2004 09:16
Theoden stood out brilliantly in this scene, as did Brad Dourif as Grima. Everything else...eh. The fireball and death by spiked wheel was too much cheap hollywood tactics for me.

[Edited on 20/12/2004 by LinweSingollo]
"To the Hobbits. May they outlast the Sarumans and see spring again in the trees." J.R.R. Tolkien
Figwit
Book Club Moderator & Misty Mountain Monster
Posts: 1966
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: ROTK EE Sequence by Sequence #1: The Voice of Saruman
on: December 18, 2004 10:05
Just a thought ~ Saruman’s use of fire magic could lead viewers to wonder why he didn’t just throw a fireball at Treebeard, burn him up and escape?


Heya Ruby! That is indeed very right, and I'd completely forgotten about that. I was so wrapped up in the idea of Saruman not being able to use 'magic' anymore, that I completely forgot it undermines the entire 'taken captive by the Ents' thing as well...

I’m looking forward to hearing what Peter Jackson says about this scene in his commentary.


Me too! When I find the time...
i_luv_orlando_b
Council Member
Posts: 74
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: ROTK EE Sequence by Sequence #1: The Voice of Saruman
on: December 19, 2004 06:46
I think that it was horrible how they completley changed what happened in the book! Also why does Legolas shoot Wormtongue???
LaBelleDominique
Council Member
Posts: 1
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: ROTK EE Sequence by Sequence #1: The Voice of Saruman
on: December 19, 2004 08:26
I took the poll. I am thrilled by what I have seen of the extra footage. Saruman had disappeared to soon for my benefit, and I am glad that he was reconfigured into the last film. It brings his storyline into a close.
Oitur
Council Member
Posts: 17
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: ROTK EE Sequence by Sequence #1: The Voice of Saruman
on: December 20, 2004 06:57
I was sorta disappointed with the scene, I wanted to see Gandalf and Saruman fight for real!



Though Theoden did look like he could take Saruman on all by himself, man was he pi**ed!
diendrial
Council Member
Posts: 23
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: ROTK EE Sequence by Sequence #1: The Voice of Saruman
on: December 21, 2004 05:32
Excellent review Figwit! I was dissapointed in a lot of the confrontation also, althouh Bernard Hill's speech sent shivers down my spine and I loved the look that Aragorn gave him as he listened.

My disappointment was that Peter Jackson didn't just leave this Saruman issue opened...the way it happened in the book..allowing Saruman to talk his way out of Isengard. Then, in a couple of years Peter could have written a whole new movie called The Burning of the Shire. There's enough in that chapter to warrant a movie of its own. THAT would have been the more excellent way in my opinion. He could have ended ROTK at Gondor, with Frodo and the other Hobbits setting off to return to the Shire and made himself another million in a couple of years. Gosh, if he had only asked me...

Yes, I couldn't stand Legolas killing Wormtongue! Especially since Wormtongue (I agree with you Figwit on his performance) was beginning to listen to Theodin. Legolas is not a war monger or blood thirsty. He only shoots when there is a threat. The only threat here was to Saruman. I did love it when Gimli says "Oh I've heard enough of this, shoot him Legolas" and Legolas hesitantly draws an arrow. That was funny. But he didn't shoot then, why on earth would he shoot when the enemy was being attacked by one of his own. Better if Gimli had thrown his ax! But I agree, one of the Rohirrim could have shot him and it would have made more sense.

I guess I'm alone in that I liked the fireball. Especially since all the horses jumped when it hit. That was cool. But the fact that Gandalf wanted Saruman alive for 'information' was kind of lame. It was almost as though the writers were saying..."now tell me again, why did they want him alive?" I think that whole concept slowed the movie down...crippled it a little.

I actually didn't like the first disc of the EE because the theatrical version had a rhthym. There was not one slow moment in it and it was pure excitement all the way through. Even though it didn't answer many questions that the EE did, its pace was remarkably beautiful. They also changed the music in EE and I like the theatrical music much better. It flowed together better-at least on the first disc. The whole thing lacked the movement of the theatrical version, if you know what I mean.

just my humble opinion.
diendrial
(oh Oitur, is Legolas ever going to get out of that pile of snow!?)

[Edited on 10/04/03 by diendrial]

[Edited on 10/04/03 by diendrial]
Shadow_fax
Council Member
Posts: 95
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: ROTK EE Sequence by Sequence #1: The Voice of Saruman
on: December 21, 2004 01:46
Overall, I was pleased with this scene for depicting Saruman's demise. I thought Christopher Lee's acting was once again superb and he was in fine voice once more. I was disappointed with the theatrical version and for me the EE brought things to a fitting close. Yes, there were changes which we needed to get our heads around; we had known for so long that there would be no Scouring of the Shire, so for the Movies sake, Saruman's ending had to be at Orthanc. The acting was superb, especially from Bernard Hill and Brad Dourif. Theoden's speech was awesome, and the expressions of some of the actors portrayed so much too. I did grimace though, when Saruman fell on that spike, the sound of it was so realistic *shudders*, and Merry's expression said it all.
I do not think that the Rohirrim could kill Wormtongue, they don't carry bows do they? The only archer there was Legolas.
I was happy with the whole scene.
Oitur
Council Member
Posts: 17
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: ROTK EE Sequence by Sequence #1: The Voice of Saruman
on: December 22, 2004 08:17
"oh Oitur, is Legolas ever going to get out of that pile of snow?"



LOL not sure, Gimli keeps shovelin more and more snow on'im!
Oitur
Council Member
Posts: 17
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: ROTK EE Sequence by Sequence #1: The Voice of Saruman
on: December 22, 2004 08:31
Overall, I was pleased with this scene for depicting Saruman's demise. I thought Christopher Lee's acting was once again superb and he was in fine voice once more. I was disappointed with the theatrical version and for me the EE brought things to a fitting close. Yes, there were changes which we needed to get our heads around; we had known for so long that there would be no Scouring of the Shire, so for the Movies sake, Saruman's ending had to be at Orthanc. The acting was superb, especially from Bernard Hill and Brad Dourif. Theoden's speech was awesome, and the expressions of some of the actors portrayed so much too. I did grimace though, when Saruman fell on that spike, the sound of it was so realistic *shudders*, and Merry's expression said it all.
I do not think that the Rohirrim could kill Wormtongue, they don't carry bows do they? The only archer there was Legolas.
I was happy with the whole scene.



Actually the Rohirrim are equipped with short bows, but they wouldnt have reached Grima or Saruman with them!
12
Members Online
Print Friendly, PDF & Email