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Dwarflord
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Post Words in the books
on: May 26, 2007 11:19
Hi everyone!

I know I'm not the only one who read the books and loved the style used by J.R.R. Tolkien.
There are many words, that have been permanently fixed in my mind as "Tolkienish words".
Here are a couple of them, from the top of my head:

1. Folk (Dwarf folk, women folk)
2. Shadow
3. Dwelling
4. Maggots! (as in orcish swearing)

Do you have any words, that automatically send you back to Middle Earth?
LadyBeruthiel
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Post RE: Words in the books
on: May 29, 2007 03:03
"Dwimmer" for dark magic, as when Eowyn calls the Witch King a "foul dwimmerlaik." If I'm not mistaken, I believe a "laik" is a corpse. Brrr!


Q. How do you turn down the dark magic?
A. With a dwimmer switch!

:disco: I crack myself up sometimes.

[Edited on 30/5/2007 by LadyBeruthiel]
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Words in the books
on: May 29, 2007 10:05
LOL LadyB! So does a crippled Nazgul have to get about with a dwimmerframe?

"Dwimmer" isn't just dark magic, though, dwimmer is the Old English word for "illusion", but also used for "nightmare" and "haunting" whence it gets its darker connotations. The superstitious Rohirrim call Lothlorien "Dwimmordene" the Haunted Valley.

The word "dwimmerlaik" can be found, according to Tom Shippey, in Layamon's Brut, a 13C Arthurian Chronicle which I think is downloadable as a free e-book.

One day I'll have time to read all this stuff
LOTRluver43235
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Post RE: Words in the books
on: May 30, 2007 11:52
if anyone's taken the Tolkien Obsession Quiz on arwen-undomiel.com, you know that one of the questions is about seeing words like 'token' or 'habbit' but instead seeing 'Tolkien' or 'hobbit'. i think it's one of those weird tricks of the mind things.
Rulea
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Post RE: Words in the books
on: May 31, 2007 08:03
1. Smials
2. The Dwarish language
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Linwe_Saralonde
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Post RE: Words in the books
on: June 01, 2007 03:29
Well this isn't a Tolkienish word really, but everytine I see it now it reminds me of Tolkien:
Making haste, being hasty or anything related to haste.
LadyBeruthiel
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Post RE: Words in the books
on: June 01, 2007 10:09
LOL LadyB! So does a crippled Nazgul have to get about with a dwimmerframe?

"Dwimmer" isn't just dark magic, though, dwimmer is the Old English word for "illusion", but also used for "nightmare" and "haunting" whence it gets its darker connotations. The superstitious Rohirrim call Lothlorien "Dwimmordene" the Haunted Valley.

The word "dwimmerlaik" can be found, according to Tom Shippey, in Layamon's Brut, a 13C Arthurian Chronicle which I think is downloadable as a free e-book.

One day I'll have time to read all this stuff


You're right, of course. Wasn't the Old English spelling "dweomer"? Now, where have I seen that? I knew there was another dwimmer in the book; but it does seem to have only dark connotations in LOTR. Isn't the mountain with the Paths of the Dead the Dwimmorberg? But I can't find it now. Maybe I dreamed it.

Smials, is a wonderful word, and also mathom, of which I have many in my house.

One of the joys of reading Tolkien, for me anyway, is seeing through to the roots of the language. I remember the first time I read the part where Elrond says, "That is the doom that I must deem," and realized the two words are related; both have connotations of judgment. Cool.
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Words in the books
on: June 01, 2007 11:22
Ooh! Haste. Thank you Linwe. Tolkien knew what he was doing here. This word is part of the foundation of our speech. It occurs in Old English, Old French, Modern English, Dutch and German. Such a little word, easily passed over … but Tolkien emphasised it, turned it into an issue for ents, and it was reborn in our consciousness. He was a clever chap.

LadyB. Indeed the Dwimmorberg. Our vicar popped in this afternoon and I was showing him the site. He said “… and didn’t Eomer call Saruman “dwimmer-crafty”? Which he did. That brings us to “crafty”. Here it doesn’t mean slyly treacherous, sneaky etc (although Saruman was all those things) it means the use of a craft: a skill in making something. In Saruman’s case it was dwimmer in its darker forms, so he was “crafty” in the modern sense as well. Tolkien often plays with us like that.
Linwe_Saralonde
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Post RE: Words in the books
on: June 01, 2007 12:40
Yeah it's in those little things that we notice Tolkien's genious. I'll have to look up that dwimmer-crafty part again.

Another Tolkienish word can be Gaffer. I was reading TTT today, and it just came to my mind. And that's with all the insults the Gaffer uses as well. Like ninnyhammer...lol this one cracked me up.
LOTRluver43235
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Post RE: Words in the books
on: June 01, 2007 04:56
1. precious
2. festering malignancy (animated ROTK)
3. angst (jerry the frog productions parodies )
LadyBeruthiel
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Post RE: Words in the books
on: June 02, 2007 03:12
Yeah it's in those little things that we notice Tolkien's genious. I'll have to look up that dwimmer-crafty part again.

Another Tolkienish word can be Gaffer. I was reading TTT today, and it just came to my mind. And that's with all the insults the Gaffer uses as well. Like ninnyhammer...lol this one cracked me up.


Gaffer, I think, is short for grandfather. There are also hobbit gammers, or grandmothers, somewhere in there. Great words.

I need to look up ninnyhammer in the OED one of theses days, see where it came from.

Another one that just occurred to me is "moot" as in "Entmoot," which is related to "meet" as "doom" is to "deem"--both having to do with debate and decision-making. Nowadays, more and more people think a "moot point" is a "mute point" because we've forgotten what "moot" means. A moot point isn't silent--just endlessly debatable. Sort of like an Entmoot.

I love this stuff! Thanks for starting the thread.
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Words in the books
on: June 03, 2007 11:29
I've just remembered. I lived in Colchester, Essex for a short time, and the Town Council Chamber was still called the Moot Hall.

Moot means dicussion ... or suggestion of a subject for discussion, and from there it became a word for a legislative assembly.

It was forty years ago, so my memory of the precise nature of the Moot Hall may not be accurate, but it was definitely there.

Without getting too far off-topic, I was at Old Heath, then Alresford, then Stanway. I left in 1966 and never returned.

[Edited on 6/6/2007 by cirdaneth]
Melianmaia
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Post RE: Words in the books
on: June 04, 2007 05:47
whoooo never knew that I live just north of Colchester.
I'm in East Bergholt.

[Edited on 6/6/2007 by cirdaneth]
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Words in the books
on: June 06, 2007 04:49
I've worked a bit of mod-magic on our last exchange, Melian, and combined posts to save space (and topicality - don't want to break my own rules!) Anyway ...

It would be great if you can dig up some basic info on how "moots" operated in your area. East Anglia is fascinating because being off the beaten track it retained a lot of OE and Norse/Danish language and custom.
Dwarflord
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Post RE: Words in the books
on: June 11, 2007 08:00
There is one sentence in The Return of the King which is very "Tolkienish". There are so many strong and climatic words that I just have to quote it right here. This is the thread for it...

It's about Minas Morgul and the light...

"...like a noisome exhaltation of decay, a corpse light, a light that illuminated nothing..."

This sentence is a classic example of prof. Tolkien's talent and ability to send you far away with just a couple of strong words in a specific setting.
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Words in the books
on: June 13, 2007 07:09
Right! I'm back home now and can catch up a bit.
Cirdaneth, are you a language major? Wow
I wish!! :cry: No I'm just very interested and scratch about among my books until I find something interesting. It is amazing what you can find in an ordinary dictionary. I have an old Chambers 20th Century Dictionary, and I always look at the notes on origin when I look up a word. Sometimes it sends me on a chase through other words and connections. I also have a collection of pocket foreign dictionaries which come in handy sometimes. Yet the only languages I speak fluently are English and Rubbish

Dwarflord: That's a wonderful quote, and probably something from Tolkien's own experience. I know that rotting fish emit phosphorus which glows, but don't know if the flesh of mammals does the same. *shudder* (be careful with your wording on this subject in case we get into 'unsuitable material')
LadyBeruthiel
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Post RE: Words in the books
on: June 22, 2007 03:27
Another one: "fell," as in fell beast and fell voices on the air. In Shakespeare's Othello, Iago is called "more fell than anguish, hunger, or the sea." It's a wonderful word that seems to have fallen into disuse. Pity, that.
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Words in the books
on: June 24, 2007 11:15
Well, LadyB, that sent me off on a trip round the “fells”. The word has a wide range of meanings, with their sources in several languages. It’s amazing how we seem to know which one we are hearing, but it must be a pain if English is not your first language.

Fell: a hill or a tract of moorland. From Old Norse 'fjal'

Fell: to knock down or cause to fall. Trees, of course, are felled and people can be felled by illness. It also means to stitch a seam where the raw edge of the fabric is laid flat … Oh the memories of doing run-and fell seams in school! From Old English 'faella' … to fall.

Fell: a skin, pelt or hide. From Old English 'fell', Latin 'pellis', Greek 'pella'.

But the one we want is …

Fell: cruel, fierce, ruthless, deadly, From Old French 'fel', and Latin 'fello'. The word ‘felony’ comes from that so it’s not quite disappeared without trace.

Maybe we should start a word-revival movement.
LadyBeruthiel
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Post RE: Words in the books
on: June 25, 2007 03:50
Ooh, a word-revival would be wonderful. We could talk about felling the fell beasts and taking their fells to the fells.

Interesting about felony--the fell deed of a felon. How appropriate.

Professor Tolkien would be proud of you, cirdaneth.
pitya
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Post RE: Words in the books
on: June 25, 2007 08:42
i'd be up for a word-revival movement: sometimes i have to restate a sentence because what i said came out very Tolkienish/Shakespearean . Must needs, fell, necromancy, what say you, etc... It's a pity the older mode of speaking has gone out of style, it's incredibly beautiful.

another word i use quite often is 'Fey' (i actually have a fanfiction chapter titled that, about Fëanor and his sons). you say 'fey' and people look at you as though you were nuts.

and thou/thee, at times those will slip. there is a very interesting article on HASA about Tolkien's use of thou and thee and their meanings, incredibly intriguing and enlightening. the link is here:

http://henneth-annun.net/stories/chapter_view.cfm?stid=6960&SPOrdinal=1

i would strongly recommend it to linguistically-minded people.
Manephelien
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Post RE: Words in the books
on: September 30, 2007 06:30
Mirk, meaning dark, as in Mirkwood. Dark is 'mörk' in Swedish, pronounced the same way, or as near as to make no difference, as mirk.
Precious!
Mirandilwen
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Post RE: Words in the books
on: October 02, 2007 04:28
Ohhh! I love words- awesome thread!
Another word that is like that is: fey, like when Eowyn says Aragorn seemed fey when he went into the Paths of the Dead, and when Eomer sees Eowyn and thinks she is dead. That has such a wonderful sound to it and is such an archaic word that you get all sorts of images and associations from it. I also like the style of verse/poetry the Rohirrim use- It really sounds old and gets you in the mood for chivalrous and heroic deeds!
Other Tolkienish words are: gossamer, errantry, at length, anguish, keen, espied, feined.... I could go on for a while, but I'll spare you =)
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Words in the books
on: October 04, 2007 09:31
Sorry to have been so quiet. It’s been a busy often gruelling summer, and I’ve missed being able to paddle about in the word-pool! Anyway … mirk …

Murk: dark, gloomy, obscure. That’s interesting Manephelian. My Dictionary confirms that it is also mörk in Danish. In Old English it was mirce, and in Old Norse, myrkr. So it’s obviously a very ancient word since so many of us share it. And not a Greek or a Roman to be seen. It’s our very own Northern European word … our own … our precious … oops ‘scuse me :blush:

Our modern English spelling of it is murk, and my dictionary tells me the mirk spelling was the old Shakespearian, Spenserian style.

There is also a reference to an Australian slang adjective murken used to describe game animals outside the shooting/fishing season. I’ve no idea whether it’s related.
Elana
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Post RE: Words in the books
on: October 09, 2007 09:09
There are some words that remind me of Tolkien whenever I read them. One of them is void; the first time I read this word was in LotR (I should mention English is not my first language).
Fair is another one. It's not that unusual, but Tolkien uses it in a special way, I don't know how to explain it, but it sounds different the way he uses it (can you at least guess what I'm trying to tell you :blush).
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Words in the books
on: October 09, 2007 10:35
I think Tolkien actually said that the word fair in English first calls to mind light colours especially of hair and complexion, and the idea of loveliness comes second ...but in Middle Earth the word fair first means fine, handsome, perfect, delightful etc and the concept of blondness came afterwards. If I find the quote I'll post it.

We have other uses for the word fair in English, but I haven't time to post them tonight.

agent
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Post RE: Words in the books
on: November 14, 2007 05:46
Well,for me are such simple words like 'precious','lord','ring'.
And i always remember Tolkien when i spot somewhere words like 'sword','bow' and 'dead',the last i always associate with the Paths of the dead.Or with Dead Marches sometimes. And 'spider'makes me think of Shelob and 'traitor'-of Saruman.
DwarfMaster
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Post RE: Words in the books
on: December 23, 2007 03:46
What does "cunfusticate" mean? (from The Hobbit)
LadyBeruthiel
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Post RE: Words in the books
on: December 26, 2007 10:28
Well, it would help to know the context, but if I remember correctly, it's sort of a country way of saying "confuse" or "confound."
Lindarielwen
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Post Re: Words in the books
on: February 23, 2013 10:50
The word "suffer" interests me....as in, "You will suffer me." So does "suffer" mean "allow" ?
My destiny is riding again, rolling in the rain, unwinding in the wind. My destiny is fighting again, secretly unwinding..what it was I was supposed to say...to say to you today.
tarcolan
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Post Re: Words in the books
on: February 23, 2013 11:49
"Suffer the little children..."? I certainly hope it means allow. In fact it's more akin to tolerate or put up with. Begrudgingly allow. You really must get a dictionary, there's nothing quite like a half hundredweight of words on your lap to keep you busy.

One word that intrigues me is only used once, by Aragorn, and that is rede. It means counsel.

Some people on the set in New Zealand had problems with the phrase "rick, cot and tree". I suppose the use of black polythene wrapping is to blame.

[addit]
Re. moot halls, there are lots all over England and plenty in USA too. There are also moot points, places between villages where local issues would be discussed. One such is the Hitching Stone in Yorkshire which is a boundary marker of three wapentakes. It is also an equinox sighting point, and they used to hold a Lammas fair there in days of yore. (Photo in photo thread.) I'm off to get my dictionary, where's that wheelbarrow?
Hangman Helper program
Lindarielwen
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Post Re: Words in the books
on: February 24, 2013 09:24
tarcolan, after I posted, I did take out my 30 pound Webster's and, in a word, suffer means allow. I love to read the dictionary. I must read it more often.


My destiny is riding again, rolling in the rain, unwinding in the wind. My destiny is fighting again, secretly unwinding..what it was I was supposed to say...to say to you today.
~nólemë~
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Post Re: Words in the books
on: February 24, 2013 01:56
The biggest pain for me to find out about was the word 'gangrel'. I went through several etymological dictionaries before discovering it. With me having learned German and Swedish as well, I guess I should have suspected that it would be derived from the old Germanic words for 'go', although the suffix sounds suspiciously Romance... -> the word means something like 'vagabond', if I recall correctly.
---------- Image "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world." J.R.R. Tolkien - The Hobbit
Lindarielwen
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Post Re: Words in the books
on: February 24, 2013 02:14
I have found that a "rick" is an outdoor stack of hay or straw and "cot" is another word for "shelter". And a tree by any other name, is still a tree.
My destiny is riding again, rolling in the rain, unwinding in the wind. My destiny is fighting again, secretly unwinding..what it was I was supposed to say...to say to you today.
TofuFishy
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Post Re: Words in the books
on: February 28, 2013 08:29
I cannot be the only one who raised an eyebrow at Sam's, "...I durstn't go outside this dell for any money..." I mean... what? I assumed, using context clues and all, he was basically saying "yeah I saw something on the slope and there is no way in heck I'm going to go outside this dell no matter what you pay me!" But it was still a rather odd encounter.
Lindarielwen
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Post Re: Words in the books
on: February 28, 2013 09:53
My 30 pound Webster's shows a word "durst". It says that word belonged to ancient times and is the past tense of "dare" so....Sam wouldn't dare go........
My destiny is riding again, rolling in the rain, unwinding in the wind. My destiny is fighting again, secretly unwinding..what it was I was supposed to say...to say to you today.
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