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Lady_Sanya
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Post Middle Earth, Is It Real?
on: August 25, 2010 04:52
This question has plagued my mind since I started LOTR. Is Middle-Earth real? I seriously wonder how one man could create such a vivid world with history, maps, languages and people. He must have had a very overactive imagination or a lot of time on his hands. Or...He's been to Middle Earth! Dun Dun Dunnn!

So this is a question to you, forum. Do you think Middle Earth is real? Reasons why would be appreciated.

As silly as it sounds, I think it is real, just in a different universe. (not in the past) See, I have this theory that every star we see outside at night is a different universe and that one of those stars is a universe that contains Middle Earth. Silly, I know. But I'm interested in what all of you have to say.
gramarye
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Post RE: Middle Earth, Is It Real?
on: August 26, 2010 05:59
Well, Tolkien's intention with writing the Lord of the Rings was partly to invent a kind of Mythology for England, as he lamented many times that England had no real mythology of it's own (for example, the stories of King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table are largely French in origin); so for me, Middle Earth has always been sort of an ancient Europe, steeped in myth and legend.

However, this also depends on what you think of as real. Plainly; Middle Earth is a fictional place. It doesn't 'exist', it has no physical form. We cannot go there, we cannot touch it and we will never see it.
But it does 'exist'- in our hearts and minds. Yes, I know this is a very corny and cliche thing to say, but after all of my book reading and character bonding, I say it with certainty and I mean it. Existing in your heart doesn't cheapen the 'realness' in anyway, it only means you can't go there (physically).
The people in Middle Earth had many thoughts and feelings, lots of them different from (though suiting the purpose of) Tolkien's own. Though there may not be a physical body for those feelings and thoughts to fill, I think they are very real, and so are the places they have been and the things they have done.
It exists all around us in a way, too- looking around me, I often overlay the things I know about Middle Earth with the things I know about 'this' Earth. Imagine stories behind the places; perhaps an Elf has been here, or is Ulmo lurking under the surface of the water, etc.
And even looking at other mythologies and looking for hints of long forgotten Middle Earth in them- "Ah, we still remember some of that time long ago."

So I would say yes, Middle Earth is real, but perhaps not in the way you mean.
Lady_Sanya
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Post RE: Middle Earth, Is It Real?
on: August 27, 2010 06:44
You're reply is very inspiring Gramarye. And you are very right. Even though Middle Earth may not have a physical form, it still lives on in our hearts and the hearts of others who fell in love with Tolkien's works.

I read this article recently, http://tolkien.cro.net/mearth/another.html

It saddens me that I would never get to meet Aaragorn, or Sam or any of the other wonderful characters of Middle Earth. However, now I know I can meet such people, here on this Earth. Maybe not in name and appearance, but in personality. Gandalf could very well be my dear grandfather, with his sage advice and wisdom. Bilbo can be that old storyteller you always find in the public libraries, huddled over a new book. And Sam, that one friend who will stick with you to the end.

No, these characters may not be real, with their sword fighting and magic, but I have met Sam's and Gandlaf's.

I'm still curious what other people think, for there are many different people out there with different thoughts.

Enjoy this song for now.

Song of The Fall of Gil-galad


Gil-galad was an Elven-king.
Of him the harpers sadly sing:
the last whose realm was fair and free
between the Mountains and the Sea.

His sword was long, his lance was keen,
his shining helm afar was seen;
the countless stars of heaven's field
were mirrored in his silver shield.

But long ago he rode away,
and where he dwelleth none can say;
for into darkness fell his star
in Mordor where the shadows are.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8FYjyvsd00
tarcolan
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Post RE: Middle Earth, Is It Real?
on: August 30, 2010 07:44
I like to think it's real, but in the past. OK, a suspension of disbelief is helpful but the history of that world does explain many of the odd things in English folklore, which was one of Tolkien's aims. So the High Elves are long gone, but the wood elves?. There are yet the descendants of Arwen and Aragorn among us, as foretold, as well as the line of Númenor. Maybe a Silmaril or two, Sauron's withered spirit, even a wizard. But the magic is hidden, mostly.
There's a story there somwhere, but not a film, eh?
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Hercynian
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Post RE: Middle Earth, Is It Real?
on: August 31, 2010 05:08
In a book I'm writing I say myth and legend are the real reality ... and what we have now, this so-called "reality," is a terrible dead end, an "anti-legend." In my book I have a fairy princess and a human debating this metaphysics. She says legend arises out of a people and a place tracking through time together ... until legends envelope the union. She says you are a nothing, a nobody unless you are part of a legend.

But then aren't we all nobodies today? And what do us modern nobodies do? What keeps us outside of legend? For one, we keep track of many, many things. We believe, trust the counterfeit magic of technology. We have no patience for or trust in magic, so we must hoard ... things. In legends whatever is needed ... comes. Excalibur comes, is, when it is needed. And such things are indeed magical.

The human in my story finds himself in a castle, but he insists that it is just something his imagination cooked up. The fairy princess says that legends -- coming from your heart and the hearts of others in the legend -- is both a foreign place and "of you." She also says legends are timeless. The human argues that, for example, the King Arthur legends are either based on fact -- or they're just fables made up. The fairy princess says King Arthur is happening, will happen, did happen. She says magic serves the legend, just as the people and beings in it do -- continually. It is just a side effect of these anti-legend times that we read and fantasize about legends, rather than actually participate in them.

Therefore, Tolkien's Middle Earth is indeed real. It is happening, it happened, it will happen. You have a real role to play in it (or maybe another legend) when you earnestly seek out that role. How can something like Tolkien's Middle Earth have such an effect on us -- and just be "escapism?" Ha! Escape prison and run home, said Tolkien to this criticism. But a calling to enter a legend can be perilous. The so-called real world hates magic and has driven almost all magic away. Consider the Nazis in Germany. Many could say it was a grand call to "enter the legend," to rediscover the magic of the pre-Roman German forests-and-folk bond, to see if elven blood could be rediscovered. But we see how the German people were deluded, how the good will and earnest desires -- especially of the young people -- were twisted by a Sauron-like evil. A similar movement began in the 1960s, called by many names: the Hippie movement, the Woodstock Era, the Age of Aquarius. As Joni Mitchell sang: "We are stardust, we are golden, and we've got to get back to the Garden." And then Led Zepplin's lyrics: "There's a feeling I get when I look to the West, and my spirit is crying for leaving." Yes, fine, but it flopped too, obviously not as catastrophically as the Nazis, but failed it did.

I very much believe another "movement" away from cold reason, mindless materialism, ecological ruin, and soulless nihilism will come -- very soon -- the human race has no other choice. But will it be any more successful than the last two failures? Probably not. For that reason I would read, re-read Tolkien. Let everything sink in as deep as it might. Then feel your way into some version of Middle Earth. You will defy all logic and have little or nothing to go on ... possibly until you die. But then "...even Thou might findeth Valinor, even Thou." DON'T THINK, YEARN!!!

For me, there is no believing in the modern world, the world of reality, as they call it. I can go into the forests here where I live and sometimes feel and elvish-like tug. Too bad I have no direct, plain, obvious way to "join the elves." No, it won't be easy. Distractions abound in this real world. Am I unwittingly lining up these distractions -- on purpose, to avoid truly committing to a legend? In these times of maximal anti-legend will surely be born new legends. Again, yearn, don't think.

[Edited on 1/9/2010 by Hercynian]
Lastande_Took
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Post RE: Middle Earth, Is It Real?
on: September 02, 2010 10:45
I know Tolkien was writing fiction, but I like to think that Middle-earth is this earth, many many years ago. Tolkien said something along the lines of "an imaginary but not impossible time". I think Tolkien left a scribbling somewhere saying that we're now in the Seventh Age, which started in in 1945.

So, I 'pretend' that even though all the Elves have left, we still have the descendants of the Half-elven around. I seriously suspect Enya may be one of them - listen to her sing and you'll hear what I mean. I'd love it if there were still a few Hobbits somewhere. Sometimes I wonder if it's possible to 'wake up the trees' again.

Mostly, though, I've privately decided that Middle-earth exists in our imaginations and hearts. It has existed there, exists there now, and will exist as long as people read and love Tolkien's works. If we want M-e to truly exist in this world, we have to act like we live in Tolkien's Middle-earth. I don't want to sound like I'm spouting off the line of any faction or political party, but we'd have to get back to Nature and regain that feel for the earth that used to be nearly universal as well as looking after and taking care of each other. There may not be any Elves left, but we can do our best to fill their role.
Hercynian
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Post RE: Middle Earth, Is It Real?
on: September 03, 2010 03:02
One thing is certain: When something resonates as strongly as Tolkien's works do -- it can't be just fancy. It can't be just escapist fantasy. What is it then? Can we go all the way to saying it is something nascent? If so, then what? A religion? A movement? Something mystical, alternative universe-ish? Or perhaps a life protocol, like Taoism or Yoga?

This has been driving crazy for years now. Again, Tolkien strikes way too deep to be just some pastime or entertainment. Many books, of course, are more than mere entertainment. A book like Bram Stoker's Dracula has plenty of allegory, not least the parasite (blood-sucking) nature of the vestigial aristocracy as depicted by Count Dracula. But Tolkien's books aren't some sort of obvious social critique or didactic parables. No, Tolkien takes us somewhere we very much want to be and proceeds to tell us stories we'd very much like to be a part of -- possibly as the characters he creates. What other book has done that so completely? Sure, some have gotten close. Here in America there are millions of what I call "Old Testament reenacters." But I doubt if anyone civil would say to a religious person that they are simply "lost in a fantasy world" or "just indulging in escapism." Most people respect those who have heard a calling to a high plane.

Yes, well, Tolkien has become my high plane indeed. His works create foremost a place where I want to be -- primarily vast forests shot through with magic. And, for me at least, he creates a people embedded perfectly in that place -- the Elves whom I would imitate to my best ability, however futile it may be. BTW, did Tolkien anticipate the expression "environmental or carbon footprint" when he had his Elves barely touch the ground when they walked?

[Edited on 4/9/2010 by Hercynian]
pv
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Post RE: Middle Earth, Is It Real?
on: September 05, 2010 06:48
For me. Middle Earth is a way of thinking, rather than a place. So Middle Earth is real in the sense that Christianity or Marxism (or any other way of thinking) is real.
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Hercynian
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Post RE: Middle Earth, Is It Real?
on: September 07, 2010 04:53
When I say that a people and a place track together and eventually legends arise, I mean that when a people have been in a certain place for a long time, a certain way of looking at that place arises and, in turn, certain ways of seeing life come forth. If you come to America and you're a white from the "northwest" of Europe, you see the landscape, critters, and foliage as not too awfully different from homelands in England, Germany, Scandinavia, etc. But this same American landscape is seen entirely differently by the Native Americans. Same place, totally different interactions therewith. Who's right? Who's wrong?

I'd say the Native Americans are right, or at least more right. There's a definite Appalachian folk culture in the eastern part of the U.S. There the Scots-Irish/Scottish people have created a distinctive "overlay" that cannot be totally put into words, causing many to try and express it in music. But is it "right?" Many would say that's irrelevant, but I say the Scots-Irish were built over many thousands of years in the British Isles and coming here, they can only "partially fly" with the new environs. Indeed there is a "lost and lonely" vibe to Appalachian folk culture.

In the Minnesota North Woods, the Smokies, the Rockies, the Pacific Northwest, I get a "bright signature," whereas when I was in Germany I got a darker, older signature when I was in the forests and hills or even in an old village. I just watched a series of YouTube videos about some people in Norway where I could see some of their forests and hills in the background. Somehow it reached out and grabbed me! It had that German dark and old in spades -- even through a tiny YouTube window, incidentally shown in the background!

Of course if you live in an intensely urban setting, you get none of this. Of course an urban area can have a "signature," too. I've lived in San Francisco and Berlin, Germany, and both those places have strong signatures. But places like, say, Wichita, Kansas, are just urban, urban, urban, with very little soul. In a place like Wichita the real, natural place is so smothered by the teeming masses of insistent humans that no real interaction is possible. And of course there is far too much of this soulless, one-sided human domination today.

I'm saying that real life is bonding with a place on a deeper level than just knowing the streets and locations of things. Terry Pratchett describes this very well in his Wee Free Men series, or in his Wyrd Sisters . I truly believe people are to some degree like salmon. As one biologist said, (wild) salmon are somehow genetically programmed to find their home river when it's time to spawn and die. I think humans are that way too. Sure, you can adopt a new home and graft yourself onto the local way of seeing the land. But human interactions are strongly influenced by that initial, basic land-human interaction. There may be similarities in lifestyles the world over, but it's the subtle differences that make all the difference. Place and your interaction therewith is the final piece of the puzzle in your life. And without this final piece resting perfectly, your picture is incomplete.

Now, do legends arise out of a strong, longstanding people-place interaction? Well, stories, remarkable occurrences of people and their longstanding place begin to typify that people-place interaction, to say it best. Again, in Appalachia, you can "feel" something in the music, a morphed version of old British Isles folk music. People are, hence, attracted to legend and folk music because it expresses the deeper side of life found in that people-place bond.

I'd say Tolkien went straight to what really matters in us: the connection of a people to a place and how that people-place interaction played out in people-people interactions. Could all his heroic tales have been cast in a totally foreign, exotic setting and not some pre-Roman Northwest Europe "Middle Earth?" Then it would have just been another fun heroic tales collection. No, the normal, healthy human seeks a bond with place, seeks a permanence and deeper meaning therewith. If you're not Northwest European, then reading Tolkien will no doubt spur you on to find your own people-place legend space. When I read legends from distant places, I feel all the better about my own people-place genetic memories.
Lady_Sanya
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Post RE: Middle Earth, Is It Real?
on: September 07, 2010 11:46
I see... so the reason I'm so fascinated with Middle Earth is because of this people-place interaction?

Thank you all for your responses, especially Hercynian! I find it interesting to know what other people think and their opinions on Middle Earth.

Keep 'em coming, guys!
Hercynian
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Post RE: Middle Earth, Is It Real?
on: September 07, 2010 04:45
Maybe read Terry Pratchett's Wee Free Men , then his Hat Full of Sky definitely. He makes what I'm saying fun.
pv
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Post RE: Middle Earth, Is It Real?
on: September 07, 2010 09:08
Could all his heroic tales have been cast in a totally foreign, exotic setting and not some pre-Roman Northwest Europe "Middle Earth?" Then it would have just been another fun heroic tales collection.

It's true that for Europeans, and people of European origin, a tale set in pre-Roman northwest Europe would have a special resonance, but for people of other cutures, Tolkien and his Middle Earth are meaningful too.
Just as for Peter Brook, the ancient Indian epic "the Mahabharata" is meaningful, Tolkien's appeal is not limited to people of his own land and his own culture.
Certain writers are able to create a world that in some way rings true to readers - George Lucas, Tolkien, Thomas Hardy - and it doesn't make a difference to readers whether they are real or not, as long as they are believable.

[Edited on 8/9/2010 by pv]
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Hercynian
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Post RE: Middle Earth, Is It Real?
on: September 08, 2010 05:00
If true legends originate from a people and their place, then people of all races and ethnicities can be moved by Tolkien, true. For example, there is a folk tale called "Krabat" or "The Satanic Mill" from a tiny corner of Germany about a Slavic minority people, the Wends. It was adapted by Otfried Preußler and loved by all Germans. There is nothing about it exclusive to Wends or Slavs, but at the same time, it is very much "from their kitchen," so to speak. Somehow folk tales are like a great big pot luck where everybody brings their own home dish and shares with everyone else. The flavors, of course, are quite varied and therefore quite exquisite.

I guess it would be silly to insist that because my ancestors come from Northwest Europe that I am more "triggered" by Tolkien than you are pv. You might say that Tolkien's dish's flavorings are more familiar and give me more comfort, just like a dish served in my childhood might be comfort food to me now as an adult. Still, the best Mexican food is not this generic Tex-Mex stuff served at all the chain restaurants throughout the U.S., but instead the real food down in Mexico from the individual communities of origin. Authentic always tastes best, whether served to the natives who have loved it for all their lives and for centuries past, or to someone across the globe who just fell in love with it. We instinctively know authenticity, even if it's origin is totally foreign and exotic to us. The only difference is, therefore, whether it (food, custom, folk tale) has the old comfort resonance, or a new, bright, "wonderful new discovery" resonance. As I said in a previous post, the forests and wild places of Continental North America all have an exciting, bright feel to them, whereas when I visited German and Scandinavian wild places, I felt an older, maybe deeper feeling, not so bright, but all the more serious and meaningful for it.

Having said all that, there is another aspect that Tolkien injects to his work that goes beyond your typical fairy tale. He brings up the issue of the "elder race." Most, if not all peoples have some variation of a creation myth or their beginning times. Nearly all speak of their original ancestors as being exalted, "blessed by the gods," etc. The Semites have Adam and Eve, who were in Yahweh's constant grace. Many aboriginal peoples talk about times when the gods moved among the people on a daily basis. The Northern Europeans have myths about the elves or fairies, who were a race "radiant fair and magical." They were either our direct ancestors, or replaced, interbred, or driven off by us -- in any event, still deeply connected to us and our fate. So when I hear about Elves, I know they were real and our (Northern Euro) proto-ancestors in some way. I think all people of the world yearn deeply (if not unknowingly) for those times of high exaltation and connection with the divine. And so Tolkien says "...maybe thou shalt find Valinor, maybe even thou." He gives us both barrels: the people-place resonance, and the divine ancestral roots reconnection. So ironic then that so many "modernists" just hate his works. This hatred and dismissal is no doubt the same strange impulse that drove us out of the original sacred spaces, at least IMHO.
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Post RE: Middle Earth, Is It Real?
on: September 08, 2010 08:42
We instinctively know authenticity, even if it's origin is totally foreign and exotic to us.

Absolutely.This is what Tolkien's fans recognise and respond to. it is this that makes Middle Earth so real to us.


You might say that Tolkien's dish's flavorings are more familiar and give me more comfort, just like a dish served in my childhood might be comfort food to me now as an adult.

In his writing, Tolkien drew inspiration from many cultures outside his own. His idea of creating a "mythology for England" came from Nordic myths. Gondor, was based on Italy. Quenya was based on the Finnish language. Sindarin was based on the Welsh language. According to some critics, the Black speech of Mordor sounds like Turkish. The dwarf language has words in it reminiscent of Sanskrit. (Aule, for instance is called 'Mahal') The Numenorean kings have names that sound Egyptian.


He brings up the issue of the "elder race."

It is easy for an author to criticise the world around them. But it's not so easy to actually create a character or a race that brings alive to a reader the author's idea of perfection. Once we have met Tolkien's elves, many of us feel that this is an ideal we can relate to, and this is something that we can work towards in our real lives.
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tarcolan
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Post RE: Middle Earth, Is It Real?
on: October 21, 2010 06:37
Something Herc said above caused one of those realisation things-
A great moment in the history of humanity has passed unnoticed and unsung; the ancient teachings have travelled around the globe, West and East to meet just there and just then, in America. Celtic and aboriginal Americans completing the circle. I wondered if there were any recognition of this fact anywhere, but the Internet is full of peril (Oooo look, an iThingy). I'll keep digging. Meanwhile this-
I must be tuned in to things Celtic at the moment. I went in a charity shop a couple of days ago and found a book called 'Anam Cara' by John O'Donohue. I opened it at random and this is what he says
There is an unprecedented spiritual hunger in our lives. More and more people are awakening to the inner world. A thirst and hunger for the eternal is coming alive in their souls...
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Hercynian
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Post RE: Middle Earth, Is It Real?
on: October 21, 2010 06:14
In a book I'm writing I call it the "fantasy gradient," i.e., the gap between what we want, what we fantasize, versus the so-called "real world." Nietzsche called this gradient the definition of nihilism, although he's again being super-cryptic and symbolic.

Yeah, the modern world is emptying out of meaning and purpose. There may ultimately be no "meaning/purpose of/to life," except through "right living." But when you know very well you're not living right -- yes, "spiritual hunger" gets rather ravenous.

If you saw the movie "Labyrinth" there's a scene where the girl finds herself in what seems like her old bedroom. But no, she's actually in a huge dump, and then an old hag appears and tries to placate her with this or that toy or object. It so perfectly mirrors what today's world is becoming: People rummaging around for material objects, trying to get more things, better things, to keep the glow of buying and owning "great stuff" rolling.

So if a "thirst and hunger is coming alive" then, yes, this whole era is like the bow being drawn back, about to launch us the arrow to new heights. Yeah, this explanation neatly side-steps gloom and doom. Yeah, folks, time to be a Numenorian or an Elf. Time to be exactly the opposite of a modern wretch living out some depressing blend of "1984" and "Brave New World."

Speaking of things, I just ordered a book of the LotR soundtrack for Piano from Amazon. It supposedly has "Lament for Gandalf." I'm going to learn it -- I guess on the piano, but mainly the words. I think it was one of the highlights of the film when the Fellowship was chilling out in Lothlorien and you hear Elizabeth Frasier's voice and the chorus answering. Would there be any better concert than to hear the Elves of Lothlorien singing?
tarcolan
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Post RE: Middle Earth, Is It Real?
on: October 24, 2010 09:19
Don't feel silly Lady_Sanya, when you gaze at the stars. It turns out that black holes may have a Universe inside. Another theory suggests that a Universe cannot exist without conciousness in it, and that's reassuring isn't it? Wherever we lay our hat... Physics is getting awfully close now. I don't think it has anything to do with race or place. My uncle traced the family tree back 20 generations (male line of course). He wanted to link us to a 14thC Bishop, 30 generations ago. I hadn't the heart to tell him there were a billion ancestors back then.

One of the oldest examples of writing is not some list of laws, it's a fantasy epic about King Gilgamesh and his search for the Fountain Of Youth. Five, ten thousand years? Older? In the LOTR Tolkien leaves all real world references behind at Bree, with the mention of money. All such great works are applicable by anyone in any culture or time. That was his skill (tekhne).

As to the Noldor, well there we must part company. They condemned themselves because of their lust for power. A true elf is not concerned with such things. I don't see Valinor as anything to write home about either. The beauty of a garden is in the cycle of Nature, each flower blooms in its time. The trees are going to sleep in the Northern hemisphere now, and we look forward with joy to the re-awakening.
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Post RE: Middle Earth, Is It Real?
on: January 04, 2011 02:27
I prefer to believe that Middle-Earth is not 'real.' The things in this world that are real are often so depressing and steeped in corruption that I don't want to associate the values in Lord of the Rings with the rest of the world. Middle-Earth is a land which anyone can visit, but all too few of us ever do (At least here in the U.S.).

Despite the darkness Tolkien repeatedly wraps his world in, you know that in the end there has to be a resolution, even if it's not actually in the story you're reading. After the darkness, Tolkien's world changes; the characters have seen the bad and take more joy than ever before in the good, and they try to keep the world from falling back into darkness. There are no politicians setting their material welfare above the greater good, and there are people who actually work together without fighting and help eachother out without expecting something in return. Slavery, in Tolkien's world, is something practiced only by the Dark Powers, and the sudden introduction of such an idea to the simple lives of Hobbits has life-changing effects.

I guess what I'm saying is that Tolkien's is a world of great, occasional darkness, where the forces of light resist it with all their strength, so unlike the real world. How could Middle-Earth be 'real?'

Not to say that it doesn't 'exist.' Middle-Earth exists in the people who help others for the sake of helping, not for personal gain. It exists in the good things people do every day, and in the ones who still believe that the world has some good in it and that if we work hard enough there will be another 'Spring' of this world. Perhaps if everyone on Earth could take a lesson in friendship or loyalty or any other one of the numerous values in Tolkien's writings, then this world could become, in spirit, Middle-Earth.
Hercynian
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Post RE: Middle Earth, Is It Real?
on: January 04, 2011 03:23
Here, here, Marlewyn. If you've reduced life to nothing but the material. If you've chased off all idealism. If everything is relative -- you may be able to run a fairly peaceful mass society, but it won't last for long. So many people pooh-pooh Tolkien and his "black-and-white simplistic" world view. I count myself blessed that I don't see him that way. . . .
Gladhaniel
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Post RE: Middle Earth, Is It Real?
on: January 04, 2011 04:27
This is a great thread! I've quite honestly been thinking about the matter for some months now, and I'd be glad to share my view with you guys (since no one at home understands it, let alone consider it with anything other than laughter).

For me, as some of you have said, Middle-earth might very well have existed in a remote and uncertain, but nonetheless 'real' past. And I believe traces of it still remain today for those of us (in other words Tolkien's fans) who are open enough to see it.
In my eyes, Tolkien's world is too rich and beautiful to be simply a work of imagination - it has to be something more. I like to think that Tolkien only transmitted visions of a world that did exist at some point in the past and that the author would mysteriously be the only one left to know about in detail. Indeed, I think that if dinosaurs did exist, then why not Middle-earth? This is a probability that I find strangely nice and comforting. For me, not only was this reality 'real' in the past, but it's also still there somehow, in little things that surround us.

I know that some people might consider this as an attempt to escape reality or to find refuge into fiction, and I'm also well aware that even Tolkien fans might think I'm exaggerating. But for me, there isn't anything bad in such a point of view, as long as one does not stop living in today's reality because of it. What's so bad in dreaming to brighten one's life?
Hercynian
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Post RE: Middle Earth, Is It Real?
on: January 05, 2011 05:00
As I've noted elsewhere, Tolkien said it best with his famous "secondary world" comment.

. . . Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbour, while materialistic 'progress' leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil.


As very many have said, "materialistic progress" has gotten far out of hand. And I say in addition our myths have also become misguided. But behind it all is longing and yearning, which I'm repeating here, also. I say you have to possess some inklings of what and maybe why your longings and yearnings are to make any sense of life. So why do we go beyond cheap escapism with Tolkien. Why do some of us truly yearn and long for Middle Earth? Tolkien said it's only natural for a person to want to "escape from prison and run home." That home for many of us would be Middle Earth, a place where life makes sense, first and foremost by offering wonderment and amazement, two ingredients only pathetically piqued by the myriad technological advancements thrown at us.

For lack of direction, meaning -- magic in the so-called real world, we yearn and long for the true harbour, our sailing craft, Tolkien's works.
hobbitsrulemyworld101
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Post RE: Middle Earth, Is It Real?
on: February 02, 2011 11:18
Me and 2 of my friends, like to believe Middle Earth is real. We are forever making up stories about us and the LotR characters. We know that even if Middle Earth is real, its some place we can't go physically, but that doesn't stop us journeying there mentally. I do believe though, just as many before me on this thread have, that Middle Earth is 'real'. Not necessarily physically but it defiantly exists in our minds- me and my friends are a good example of that. We practically live another life- one in the land of Hobbits, and Elves, Dwarves and Wizards... Middle Earth. This doesn't stop us living our 'real' lives on Earth any less than we otherwise would. In fact, I think it opens our hearts and minds to the world around us even more. But Middle Earth is a place we can travel to when our Earth lives aren't having the best of times. We can recover there, and then come back and live our Earth lives even better than before.
Frodo~the~Second
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Post RE: Middle Earth, Is It Real?
on: February 06, 2011 12:05
Well, that is the real question, isn't it? And I know the answer: Middle-earth does exist. Maybe just in our minds and in our hearts. Maybe just when we gather 'round in the living room and watch it play out again, the stories re-told. Or maybe it exists in another demension: our spaces between spaces and lands within lands. Or maybe it exists in a song or a feeling, a taste or in deja vu; our favorite place or our favorite face; the hand that stroked your hair when you couldn't sleep. However you answer that question of questions, you will find that undeniable truth that Middle-earth does exist. Is it concrete? Probably not. But is it real? Without a doubt.

Hope I help!

~Frodo (the Second)
Hercynian
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Post RE: Middle Earth, Is It Real?
on: February 12, 2011 02:18
Hear, hear, Frodo II. As you may have noticed here on CoE, I'm a "frequent poster" with a big opinion. You might have seen some of my posts where I rail against modern realism, i.e., the people who diss Tolkien and call(ed) him a light-weight. But their criticism of "fantasy" I do not take lightly, i.e., that any story that relies on some sort of magic is poop, and loses legitimacy the very moment something "magical" happens.

Okay then, let's say, like Vernon Dursley of Harry Potter infamy insists, "There's no such thing as magic!" Then you, me, the others of CoE, and beyond will just have to create it. How? Today we're in a long, long period of "faking" magic with science and technology. I call technology "counterfeit magic." But is there any real magic? Yes. You, Frodo II just mentioned real magic: A person dear to you strokes your hair when you're scared -- and you remember it forever and it lights your way. That's real magic. Okay, it's not Harry Potter magic, but it's a start. As I said in another post, children seem to waver in and out of enchantment naturally. The look on a little girl's face when she first spots what will be her favorite doll . . . is truly a moment when she is in the fairy realm -- just for a brief moment, a very brief, very most subtle little gone-and-back-again moment. That is undeniable magic. Another example is when I heard Estampie's (medieval group) "Heu, Heu, Heu," or Jeff Buckley's "All Flowers In Time Bend Towards the Sun" for the first time. Don't laugh, music is true magic.

Okay, I'll conform to all the rules of reality any fuddy-duddy rationalist may lay down: No "overt" magic. No silly wand-waving, etc. No Nenyas or Rings of Power. Good. So where does that leave us? As partisans of the Underground, trying to bring magic back, but allowed only the basic stuff they've overlooked or laugh at. Let them laugh! Now go out and dedicate yourself to increasing and propagating all the "small magic" you possibly can. Become a purveyor of "small magicks." Hey, it's a start. And if it ain't real magic, it'll have to do till the real thing comes along. Time is definitely on our side, and -- if you look at the state of the world they've built -- definitely working against them.

[Edited on 13/2/2011 by Hercynian]
hobbitsrulemyworld101
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Post RE: Middle Earth, Is It Real?
on: February 18, 2011 12:17
Well said, both Frodo II and Hercynian; I agree with both you. Middle Earth does exist, possibly in many different ways, just not in the way many people might call 'existence'. It exists in different ways for different people, but it is most certainly real.
NgolwëAtarnildaliel
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Post RE: Middle Earth, Is It Real?
on: May 15, 2011 01:22
I think Middle Earth is the mirror of our own, which is the point. Tolkien was trying to tell us some things, mainly that we had strayed from the path which Eru wishes us to take. Eru is still annoyed at us, because we still haven't fixed our mistakes. Tolkien then proceeds to tell us what exactly we must do in order to fix our problems. The Ring quite simply represents our love of power, and only when someone destroys that love of power will we be able to fix everything that's wrong with the world. Middle Earth then is very real, it is our world plain and simple. Tolkien does not even try to hide that fact, Middle Earth is our earth, it's just an old name (from the Norse Middangard). In Anglo-Saxon times, as Tolkien knew full well, that is what they called the world: Middle Earth. so, Tolkien was telling us in no uncertain terms that Middle Earth was the same as ours. As for the people, like most authors he took them from real life, we all know an Elrond, a Boromir, a Sauron, an Aragorn, an Eowyn etc. (at least I do). and that's what great about this story, all the characters are realistic in personality (if not in appearance), and the situations and the character's responses to those situations are perfectly real and believable. The events of course are entirely fictional and rather unbelievable but those events only exist for the purpose of putting the characters into the aforementioned situations. So yes, Middle Earth is real, we are living on it now.
maerwyn2233
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Post RE: Middle Earth, Is It Real?
on: July 20, 2011 10:09
Middle earth? Why yes. Indeed. I believe, the stars and the galaxy hold far more than we can or ever will imagine. Many different galaxies and planes exist, the trick of it is, do you have a belief strong enough to make it real? Anything you think of, wish, or imagine, exists, somewhere, someplace out there. Simply because we dont see it, does not mean that it is less real. It is real, oh boyy, is it ever real. And one day, I believe, in our lifetime, we will find a path there. We are meant to be in whatever realm we are meant to be in. Believe, study, develop, and you will get there one day. Trust your gut, and your heart. If you cant shake the feeling that its there, and that your meant to be there, then that is so.
Lady_Sanya
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Post RE: Middle Earth, Is It Real?
on: September 12, 2011 02:17
Ah! I thank you all for your excellent and thought provoking reply's!
Lady_Sanya
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Post RE: Middle Earth, Is It Real?
on: September 12, 2011 02:23
In fact, it is possible that Tolkien felt that his world was changing with the creation of new technology. He might have felt that his home of the beautiful English countryside was being ruined by the technology of man, and thus he created Middle Earth, which holds a lot of similarities to the English countryside.

In fact, with Saruman we can clearly see how technology was abused by him. How he cut down the trees of Fangorn Forest and dug holes into the earth; how he basically killed nature. Many believe that the world of Middle Earth has just been a mixture of his real life, from the World Wars to the ever changing environment and people, all combined with a pinch of magic to create the epic adventure.

This makes me rather disappointed... I understand Tolkien's point about the evils of technology if it becomes too great and abused, but I was rather hoping Middle Earth was real. I just suppose it is the silly wish of a reality-sick individual.
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Post Re: Middle Earth, Is It Real?
on: August 11, 2012 10:51
I hope I'm not trying to revive a dead thread...But this topic has gotten me interested.

Tolkien's Middle Earth may or may not be true/real. But isn't that how it is when we look back upon the past? Yes there may be some evidence of ancient civilizations that once prospered upon this land. But besides that we do not have any good solid record about how they lived, or how they died(in some cases). And as I go on and meet kindred spirits (Ya know the nerds/geeks that play battle games/Dagorhir)the more I notice some similarities of their personality/actions that do resemble some of the races of Middle Earth. Even outside of my Dagorhir family I've noticed that actions of a person is more 'dwarvish', 'elvish', 'hobbit', 'orcish'...etc. So to say that there's a high possibility that there could have been a Middle Earth and we are it's legacy.

Though for me, I do believe that there is/was a Middle Earth, let it be in ancient(forgotten) history or within an alternate dimension.
Xariex
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Post Re: Middle Earth, Is It Real?
on: August 14, 2012 01:42
I think that Middle Earth is real, because I can't believe that one man was able to create so many languages with big dictionaries and great grammar. And also so many characters and history of three ages of Middle Earth... That's too much for one life.
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Post Re: Middle Earth, Is It Real?
on: October 01, 2012 01:05
I'm not sure if middle-Earth is, or was, real but geologically, Middle-Earth could have existed. Pangaea was discovered in 1912, so it was always possible that Tolkein hadn't heard of the research but not very probable, since he went to war in 1940, he would have had more than 20 years to find out and use that in his book. There are also the issue of bones. Even if there had been elves or dragons, they could easily be mistaken for early humans or dinosaurs because they're only bones. The only real evidence we have is a discovery made showing a T-Rex type creature with what appear to be wings.
"A king is he that can hold his own or else his title is vain." -NelyaFinwe Maitimo (Maedhros)
dwellerofthewest
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Post Re: Middle Earth, Is It Real?
on: October 23, 2012 02:46
I agree with Xariex it seems like a history book in some text book are not that detailed and the people things and places seem so real.
Hercynian
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Post Re: Middle Earth, Is It Real?
on: October 23, 2012 08:56
The fact that what Tolkien wrote resonates so well with us -- especially we of the Euro-diaspora -- is proof enough for me that what he said is what we really believe. Detractors, scoffers say we're just escapists. But with such a huge choice of "escapist" media out there, why does Tolkien's world resonate so well and beat out all the others? I think it is because something (nearly all?) of what he created once existed. It's a great example of the Jungian "genetic memory" thing. Simple test: Why do we seem to know what Elves look like? P. Jackson's Elves (especially the extras) are pretty close to how we picture demi-angelic beings. And as I've said before, there's something really special about Rivendell, Lothlorien, and Mirkwood Elves. Tolkien could not have left out the Elves.

When you compare Tolkien's Elves to Susanna Clarke's fairies in "Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell," Tolkien wins hands-down. Oddly, lots of Clarke fans see JS&MrN as the "antidode" to Tolkien. I was on a JS&MrN forum for a while and I was a distinct minority as a Tolkien fan. Fantasy is being co-opted by modern realism, and mod-real readers are united in their hatred of Middle Earth-like places. Clarke's fairies are usually nasty sociopaths. She artfully plays with Christian prejudices against fairies.

I mention Clarke's JS&MrN often because Tolkien and Clarke really contrast nicely, offering two sides to the pre-Christian European animist nature-worship landscape. Tolkien especially fills in a sort of "pre-contact," pre-Viking Norse mythology, while Clarke speculates on the parallel "fairy realm" through a Christian Jane Austen-like perspective.

All in all, I believe Tolkien et al. have done a sort of astral archaeology on our pre-contact/pre-Roman European past. Their innermost feelings, longing for our past come out in their writings. Clarke left us wondering how exactly magic and the Raven King with return to (parallel universe) England. It's been almost 10 years and not a peep from her. As a writer myself, I don't envy her. After all it's the million-dollar question: How does Middle Earth/Raven King/magic return? I sometimes envy Christians who simply sit and wait for the "Second Coming." I have a feeling we Euro-fairy mystic types will have to actually do something to get the ball rolling
Legolas23
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Post Re: Middle Earth, Is It Real?
on: November 21, 2012 03:35
Middle-Earth could have been real at some point. I have seen people that look live Elves, and i think that Elves are still here, maybe. Maybe, they are desendants of Elves. But, the writings seem so real, but i know that Tolkien's books were inspired in someways by books by Andrew Lang. I am actually reading some right now and i can see links. Shelob could have been inspired by when he was a small boy and was bitten by a tarantula when he still lived in Blomfontain (did i spell that right?), South Africa. The name Gamgee was inspired by someone he knew with the last name of Gamgee. And some other things. So, i think both ways, iof that's possoble. It could be real, and it could not be real. Or both! Maybe races like Elves and Dwarves exist, or maybe the whole thing existed! But, i don't think any one will ever know for sure.
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