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findemaxam48
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Post LotR Movie Marathon-FotR Questions for Discussion
on: December 03, 2014 01:20
This thread will be unlocked after Sunday, December 7th, at which time discussion will open for the Fellowship of the Ring. You may, however, view the questions now.


FOTR Movie Marathon: Portrayal of The Characters

1. Do the characters change (perspective etc) during the movie? If so, in what way? Which characters are flat and which are dynamic?
2. Which character’s qualities do you most need?

FOTR Movie Marathon: The Themes

1. What aspect of the film helped most in taking you to Middle Earth?
2. What was the most important theme?
3. The spirit of Tom Bombadil is present in the film. Discuss

FOTR Movie Marathon: The Story

1. Why didn’t the Nazgul know that the hobbits were under the treeroot?
2. How would the story have turned out if Faramir had gone to Imladris instead of Boromir?
3. What is the purpose of Gandalf’s death?

You will notice that the questions are spread out into three categories. It is not necessary to cite the category you are speaking of, however, they are there as an aide to you. The questions are grouped on similarity to each other under a broad topic.

As always, if there are any questions or concerns, you may voice them in the LotR Movie Marathon thread, or PM them to myself or tarcolan.

[Edited on 12/09/2014 by tarcolan]
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Jedi Knight Elrohir Sparrow
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on: December 08, 2014 02:58
Oh I'm the first one! okay I have three things I was wondering anyone else noticed that I just noticed when I watched FoTR. First of all: when Pippin was sleeping in Aragorns room at Bree did anybody else think it looked like he just had an upper lip or something? Okay that was a really awkward question...
Second of all when Aragorn was telling Arwen not to look back when she was about to take Frodo to Rivendell he said something in elvish and the words weren't on the bottom of the screen? I think he was saying I love you.
And last but not least when Arwen gives Aragorn the Evenstar the look on his face is like "How did she get that in my hands when three seconds ago it was around her neck and we've been holding hands this whole time?
"A time may come soon, when none will return. Then there will be need of valour without renown, for none shall remember the deeds that are done in the last defence of your homes. Yet the deeds will not be less valiant because they are unpraised." --Aragorn, Return of the King, pg. 767
Jedi Knight Elrohir Sparrow
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on: December 08, 2014 03:01
Sorry I forgot but the answer to two of the questions. I think the purpose of Gandalfs death was to defeat the Balrog. And the Nazgul were about to look under the tree root but he didn't because obviously the big crash was more likely to hide hobbits than just his suspicions.
"A time may come soon, when none will return. Then there will be need of valour without renown, for none shall remember the deeds that are done in the last defence of your homes. Yet the deeds will not be less valiant because they are unpraised." --Aragorn, Return of the King, pg. 767
Lynk
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on: December 08, 2014 03:31
Jedi Knight Elrohir Sparrow said:
Second of all when Aragorn was telling Arwen not to look back when she was about to take Frodo to Rivendell he said something in elvish and the words weren't on the bottom of the screen? I think he was saying I love you.


Sindarin, that's for me then, actually the last phrase is
"Be iest lîn"
What means "According to your wish."

"I love you." would be "Melon le." or "Len melon."

But I agree with you about the purpose of Gandalfs death was to sacrifice himself to save others. Concerning the Nazgul I also had my thoughts on it. In my opinion he felt the Ring was near but rather wanted to trick Frodo to put the Ringon so that they would have easy game locating him all at once, but the logic behind such a move is rather awkward. Anyway, I just see the Nazgul as simply inefficient underlings of the dark lord (Just like the other servants, winning with numbers not with skill).





[Edited on 12/08/2014 by Lynk]
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ElfwithAtatude
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on: December 08, 2014 07:01
I agree with both of you on Gandalf's death, or you could go for the shallow obvious answer and say that he really didn't have strength to pull himself up...but I find that very unlikely.

As for the Nazgul, I ink he knew the ring was close, but what would you do in that situation?? Stick with your initial gut, or follow the mysterious sound that could potentially be your object of search??
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OneSizeFitsAll
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on: December 08, 2014 07:22
Interesting logic, Lynk! That's the best explanation I've heard yet, even if it is awkward. I do not think, however, that the Nazgul were just inefficient underlings. The way everyone else speaks of them, including Gandalf and Saruman, does not make any sense at all if their only strength is in numbers. Not to mention, *SPOILERS* in the EEs, the Witch King is able to break Gandalf's staff--even after he has become "the White" and the most powerful of the wizards (of course, you could dispute that that was just stupid, and not at all the kind of power Tolkien had in mind for The Witch King, but this discussion is supposed to leave the books out)*END SPOILERS*. Obviously, the Nazgul are very powerful.

My perspective on this, then? Well, (short of the fact that PJ was just trying to drum up tension and epic-ness, and succeeded in being cheesy) my best guess is that though the Nazgul could "smell" the hobbits, it was only enough to indicate that they were close by (perhaps their were other smells competing with the hobbit smell?), not that they were right there under the tree root.

On Gandalf's death, um...I don't think he did have the strength to pull himself up, Elfie. (I am kind of relying on the book for this, mind you, so you can always tell me to quit, but I'm just using it to back up my interpretation of the movie. In the book, I think I remember it explaining that Gandalf was weary and had little strength left, after battling the balrog.) Of course, he was sacrificing himself for everyone else, but I think he would have pulled himself up if he could have...if he had had to battle the balrog all the way down, he might as well have thrown himself in.

Also, on one of the other questions, what aspect of the film helped most to take you to Middle Earth: I discussed this with my sisters as we watched it, and we decided that it was probably the music and lighting.
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Lynk
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on: December 09, 2014 08:18
Concerning the might of the Nazguls. Well I do agree that the Nazgul and especially the Witch King of Angmar are powerful in tbe books and in any Lotr based game I played but in the film they didn't seem to have got this power and dread radiating aura I felt while reading. And about the orc army, they all have nearly full body armour that doesn't seem to be useful in anyway. Each of them gets stabbed or cut in half with a single blow... Nevertheless, even if the battle was totally unbalanced the films are awsome don't get me wrong, but it's just the feeling I had. The fellowship had more struggle killing many foes at once than having some difficult exchange of blows where the Nazguls are better. That's just my way to look at it, tell me if I'm completely wrong but the battles in the films look much more like a fun party for heroes than a real difficult fight.
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ElfwithAtatude
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on: December 09, 2014 11:44
Good point Onesie. After you mentioned it, I remember threat part of the book. Gandalf was really drained, and he did say that before he fought the Balrog.

I think one of the main things that made me feel like I was in Middle Earth would probably be the amazing sets and places where they filmed it.b

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OneSizeFitsAll
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on: December 09, 2014 04:30
Well, we can all find plenty of faults in the movie, Lynk. *sigh* The Nazgul were extremely cheesy, especially in FotR. They really didn't do much at all until the later films. (And I will say they were pretty awesome in the book, even if I'm not supposed to.) They did not really have as much of a "dread radiating aura", as you so aptly put it, in this film, at least. But I still think they were very powerful...PJ just didn't use that to his advantage, as he could have. :/ The fact that the fellowship didn't seem to have much trouble with them was just bad filming. Honestly, I do love the movies, but that was just poorly done. (Unless someone has a logical explanation why the Nazgul were so powerless, except for in a few scenes...I would love to hear a believable one!)

And I agree with you as to the orcs...they were very easy to kill, compared to the fellowship. (I mean, seriously, the fellowship nine-handedly kills hundreds of orcs just in the first movie, and only two members die...one from a Balrog, and one only after taking three arrows...not to mention in the later movies *SPOILERS* no one from the fellowship itself dies, even in the tensest battle scenes *END SPOILERS*...but maybe we'll talk about that when we get there.) It really doesn't make a lot of sense. At least lots of secondary characters die to help it out a bit.

Oh, good, Elfie...I was hoping I wasn't just remembering wrong.
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ccgaylord
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on: December 09, 2014 04:49
I submitted the question about Gandalf's death and I think it's not so much "why did Gandalf die (as in why couldn't he save himself from the Balrog?)", so much as "what was the purpose in making Gandalf die?"--in movie one no less, not to mention *SPOILERS* he comes back in the next movie *END SPOILERS*.

Obviously, PJ put it in because it was in the book, but how does it drive the plot of the movie; and if they'd left it out would it have made the movie worse?

They needed something to make the first movie exciting. That's the only answer I have so far.
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ccgaylord
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on: December 09, 2014 04:51
And last but not least when Arwen gives Aragorn the Evenstar the look on his face is like "How did she get that in my hands when three seconds ago it was around her neck and we've been holding hands this whole time?


Loved this, Jedi Knight!!

Yes, I was scratching my head during that part, thinking how did she do that??
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OneSizeFitsAll
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on: December 09, 2014 06:45
I think that Gandalf's death figured heavily in pushing Aragorn to take charge and lead the fellowship...which is important, especially as it builds up to the last movie.

Oh, one other random thing...does anyone else notice/get bothered by the disembodied hand on Aragorn's shoulder in the scene where Boromir is dying? It freaks me out every time.
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ElfwithAtatude
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on: December 09, 2014 10:06
Yes!! I noticed that too!!! In the amidst my sobbing for Boromir's death.

I think it would have made it worse, because that's a critical part of the story, and we wouldn't have had *SPOILERS* Galndalf come back to life in the second movie*END SPOILERS* therefore PJ would have had to go way way off track with the story line and invent a new direction for it. Which would have been a lot more work and probably cost more money and time to do so. Plus it probably would have made people who have read the books really mad that he left it out.

Also, I thin one of the things that helps the viewer enter Middle-earth is that PJ used the special effects so subtly that there barely even noticeable. Which makes it seem more real, except for a few moments. He didn't let the special effects take over the movie. Unlike the Hobbit, but that's for another discussion. But I think that's one of the things he did right was minimize the special effects and picked out fantastic actors that really looked like they could be related (such as Faramir and Boromir and Isildure and Aragorn. In this case as a descendent.)
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on: December 10, 2014 07:30
As we watched the movie after the Fellowship left Lothlorien, my friend kept yelling, "Use your cloaks! Use your cloaks!"

They had cloaks that made then not be seen but did they use them? No! Why didn't Frodo and Sam use the cloaks to get to Mt. Doom?

I think the great scenery is what made the movie real for me. It was truly filmed in Middle-earth.
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ccgaylord
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on: December 10, 2014 09:04
Yes, I think OneSize is right about Gandalf's death making Aragorn take over. Right before he died, Gandalf was telling Aragorn to lead them and Aragorn was like, "no, man; that's your job" and then Gandalf dies and Aragorn is like "Noooo what do I do now?" and then after they get out of Moria he's giving orders and making them move on. So that makes sense. Unless you like the idea floating around out there that he pushed Gandalf.

Here's another question: Why was Galadriel so creepy? She was slightly creepy in the book, but she really went overboard in the movie. Every scene with her or her voice in it completely creeped me out.

Lindarielwen's question: why didn't they use their cloaks? They'd just got them and weren't used to thinking of them as disguise, perhaps. Maybe they didn't really think they'd work. ??
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on: December 10, 2014 09:16
Hi all, I didn't actually sign up and therefore don't know if I should be here. If that's the case, please oust me out - I'll understand, and sorry in advance However, I have a shaky theory for the Ringwraith's lack of scariness: Could it be because they were very far from their master and in a land which was mostly unstained and permeated with goodness which countered their evil?
PSK
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on: December 10, 2014 10:52
Ooh good idea Sadro. I agree that the Nazgul are COMPLETELY useless in the first movie.I mean seriously Bill the pony could have done a better job at retrieving the ring. They get way better in the next film and RotK, especially when the witch king goes up against Gandalf. I know it doesn't really answer any questions, but hey.

Lindarielwen, I don't think that the cloaks of Lothlorien are fool proof cloaks of invisibility. As we will see in RotK they save Frodo and Sam in front of the black gate, showing that they are useful. However, in that case they just camouflage with the surrounding and look like a rock. I am pretty sure that if Sam had tried to move under the cloak they would have died. Therefore, they could not have just thrown the cloaks over them and run for it.

If we take the example of when Shelob injects Frodo with her tranquillizer venom, he is lying in the middle of a clearing. Sam couldn't have just covered him with the cloak because any Orc that had been that way before would have realized that a big boulder had migrated into the clearing. It just wouldn't work. You could argue that the cloaks may have been helpful for concealment when the Orc army marched past, but they (the Hobbits) actually used that to their advantage and travelled with the marching Orcs. I can't really think of any major moment where the cloaks would have been useful apart from when Sam actually used his. Do you agree?
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OneSizeFitsAll
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on: December 10, 2014 12:29
Yay!! Sobbing buddies, Elfie! *fist bumps*
But please don't say that Boromir and Faramir look similar...I can't take such disrespect to my hero...

I like that idea, CC!! But that doesn't mean it's true. In fact, Aragorn was like 10 feet away...unfortunately...

Sadro, I'm not in charge, but I don't see any reason why you shouldn't be allowed to discuss the movies with us! The more the merrier! If you could watch them with us, that would be still better...

That is actually a really interesting idea. My only question would be, wouldn't being close to the ring make them more powerful, if that sort of thing could affect them?

Oh, another question, for Elvish speakers: In the scene in Lothlorien, where Haldir and Aragorn are talking in the background, could anyone understand what they were saying? I was very curious, but only knowing a few not-very-basic words, had no idea.

[Edited on 12/10/2014 by OneSizeFitsAll]
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Lynk
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on: December 10, 2014 02:45
Well this dialogue can be understanded as a plea for help:
Boe ammen veriad lîn.
We need your protection.
Andelu i ven.
The road is dangerous.
...
Merin le telim.
I wish we come to you. (This is rather strange)
Henio, aníron boe ammen i dulu lîn.
Understand, I wish you provide this necessary support.
Andelu i ven
The road is dangerous.

I kept it short because I wrote the previous with my phone in the bus^^

Did any of you even wondered why Sauron in the scene of the "war of the last alliance" rather tried to grab Isildur rather than finish him off with his massive ball and chain and finally crushing the hope out of his ennemies?

I do have an idea on that but I'll let you go first.^^

[Edited on 12/11/2014 by Lynk]
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OneSizeFitsAll
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on: December 11, 2014 02:20
Oh, okay! That's too cool!!

I have absolutely no idea, Lynk. In fact, I didn't even notice that he was trying to grab him. *face palm* I'm interested to hear your idea!
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Lynk
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on: December 12, 2014 02:03
Well, my idea is that he strechted out his hand to grab Isildur around his neck, then burst the life out of him while holding him in the air to show his sheer power. Well, it didn't work out well in the end. But that's tvpical for villains always making the worst mistake in the most crucial moment.
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PSK
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on: December 12, 2014 12:49
Yeah, it was kind of silly to stick out his hand which had all his power on it in the form of a ring, when it could be so easily cut off.
When Elrond is telling Gandalf about how Isildur kept the ring, he says there was nothing he could do, surely he could have taken the ring be force of just thrown Isildur in with it? Why didn't he?

[Edited on 12/12/2014 by PSK]
"Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains." ~ The Doom of Mandos
OneSizeFitsAll
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on: December 12, 2014 02:06
Villains are never bright enough.
Maybe he couldn't run fast enough? I would have tried to knock Isildur in...taking the ring probably wouldn't have ended up working, without me getting knocked in, too (for example, Frodo and Gollum?). But of course Isildur was a distance away, and he had the ring...
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ElfwithAtatude
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on: December 12, 2014 02:33
hhhhmmmm, Interesting. I think Elrond could have probably caught up to Isildur but then he probably would have run further from the lava or whatever then we would have had a huge chase seen....I don't think it would have ended well. Maybe Elrond did want to even touch the Ring cause he didn't want to be tempted by the power and keep it, making the same fatal mistake Isildur made. But then again he's and Elf....idk.
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findemaxam48
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on: December 12, 2014 03:33
Frodo most definitely changes from the beginning of the movie to the end. You see him become more aware of himself and the world around him. Honestly, I need more of Sam's qualities: loyalty, interdependence, and caring. Though I also need Pippin's curiosity.

The music really took me to ME. It was incredible to hear such sounds come from the film, and ones that matched the mood so perfectly, at that. The most important theme, to me, is to look out for those who you care for. I saw Tom's presence in Hobbiton most of all.


Now, that is a good question. I suppose that the Nazgul didn't realize that the Hobbits were there because his lust for the Ring blinded him, and it was his one focus...although Frodo had it with him, all that the Nazgul could handle was the Ring calling to him. Now, if Faramir had gone to Imladris in place of Boromir, I suspect that the Fellowship would have remained the same size at the start of their journey as it was at the end. I also suspect that we would hear less of Aragorn's lineage, because we would have no "drama", or at least, not as much. to initiate it. Gandalf's death was there so we could see how the other Fellowship member's handled themselves without him, and so we could see Aragorn being a leader.
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OneSizeFitsAll
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on: December 12, 2014 07:19
Well, Elfie, no offense (), but I think Elves are not much less drawn to keep the ring than men. I mean...seriously. Galadriel totally lost it far more than Aragorn or even Boromir did when they had a chance to take the ring. (I've always thought that Galadriel was lying at the beginning when she said Men were the ones who desired power the most...and she was racist. )

Hey, Maxie, you feeling better? I've missed you in the discussion!
I think all the major characters change...though some more than others. Even those who's personal stories don't figure as much (like Merry, Pippin, Legolas and Gimli) change to some extent...Legolas and Gimli the least, if I remember correctly.
Does anyone need curiousity? Just kidding.

The music was awesome. The theme that impacted me the most was how everyone worked together in love and trust...and when they didn't, everything fell apart. Personally, I didn't see Tom's spirit in there at all...but I always try not to think of him.

Why do you think no one would have died if Faramir had gone instead of Boromir? A little clarification would be nice.
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Cenor
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on: December 13, 2014 10:40
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This discussion looks very interesting. Are non-marathoners allowed to join in?
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findemaxam48
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on: December 13, 2014 03:00
I think that less loss of life would have occurred (not counting Gandalf)because to me, Boromir's grab for the Ring seemed to set off a chain reaction. Frodo running, Pip and Merry protecting him, and then Boromir dying to protect them.
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tarcolan
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on: December 13, 2014 04:03
Of course, Cenor! You have to watch the film as though for the first time, to get a new perspective. Then TTT this weekend and ROTK next.

As regards Faramir going instead of Boromir and of the effect Boromir's grab for the Ring has, I have mentioned in other older threads that the events at Parth Galen are a critical point in the story. Any change here would eventually lead to a Second Darkness. Try it. Not here though. Start a thread in the Green Dragon as it applies to the books as well. Make no mistake, if you don't, I will.

Gandalf's death is for the same reason that he disappears in The Hobbit. There needs to be believable jeopardy in a story and Gandalf is just too powerful to allow it. (We know all about that don't we Maxie? ). So he had to go.

The main aspect that took me to Middle Earth is the music, from the first few seconds. I read the book a long time ago while listening to Sibelius and that opening theme is very familiar. Listen to the 2nd symphony. And the landscapes as well.

I had never considered that Elves were more drawn to the Ring than Men. It's an interesting idea. However they did have the power to resist.

Galadriel creepy? No, just other worldly. The film-makers did realise she was a bit heavy in the theatrical release and made up for it with the extended cut. In fact PJ has said that the EEs are the definitive versions of the films.

More later...
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OneSizeFitsAll
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on: December 13, 2014 05:26
Tarc, don't have time right now to reply to everything you guys said, but about the elves: I don't think that elves in general were necessarily more drawn to the ring than men in general...I just think that they weren't much, if any, less. I do think that Galadriel was drawn more to it than Aragorn, thus making her claim that "...men...above all else were drawn to power" (correct me if I misquoted that, anyone) untrue. I also personally think that the fact that she was drawn to the ring so much had to do with the fact that she was already powerful...more powerful than Aragorn or Boromir...and so it had a certain attraction for her greater than it did for Aragorn, at least. If that made any sense?
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Lindarielwen
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on: December 13, 2014 06:55
Week one is over and now we are on to TTT. Will there be questions or should we have just a general discussion?

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on: December 14, 2014 06:01
The questions are up now Lindarielwen!

I think that one of the things I missed in the EE's was the effect that Concerning Hobbits created. In the normal editions, the music immediately follows the prologue. The prologue is quite intense, and heavy in the sense that it talks about history and the evil of Sauron. I think that it is also quite chilling/frightening in parts. This creates a fantastic contrast with the light hearted and jovial Shire, which is really emphasised by the music. It almost feels as if a weight has been lifted off you, and I feel that it is one of the best uses of music in the films.

However, in the EE's, there is a considerable delay between the prologue and the track. Straight after the prologue we come to the Shire, so the contrast is there, but it is no where near as effective as in the originals. I think that PJ could have put the music on straight after the prologue in the EE's as well, as I think that the effect it creates is just amazing. Even so, the effect would not be the same, as in the originals Frodo is alone after the prologue. This creates a contrast again as while the prologue was busy with battles and lots of people, the Shire is peaceful, serene and tranquil. This complements the music beautifully and creates a powerful contrast.

Although it is nowhere near a sad scene, for come reason it is one that gets me most emotional. I think it is great film making and great use of music.

[Edited on 12/14/2014 by PSK]

[Edited on 12/14/2014 by PSK]
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on: December 14, 2014 12:00
There are indeed questions, Lindarielwen! They will be up and running soon.
We were one in the same, running like moths to the flame. You'd hang on every word I'd say, but now they only ricochet.
Cenor
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on: December 14, 2014 09:27
I wish! I can't watch LOTR in front of my sister and I rarely am alone. So...I will haunt FOTR & TTT but will watch ROTK the best I can on my laptop and make notes. Hopefully I will join you in ROTK Questions. Happy watching!
Image "Every good pirate has an alias" Felix glanced down, looking at contraption around the stump of his wrist. "Hook," he answered. "My name will be Hook."
ElfwithAtatude
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on: December 15, 2014 05:18
Just a quick comment on Galadriel being more drawn to the ring then Aragorn, could it be because she already had one of the Three Rings of Power given to the Elves???

Also I have a new "theory" for Gandalf's "death" if any one is interested....
Image "We all change when you think about it. We're all different people all through out our lives. And that's okay. That's good. You gotta keep moving so long as you remember all the people that you used to be." -- The 11th Doctor
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