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Figwit
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Post Merry & Pippin: comic relief or independent characters?
on: April 14, 2003 08:51
I don't want to turn this into a comparison between the books and the movies (although of course that will happen), but I'd like to focus on the movies mainly.

Do you think Merry and Pippin are full independent characters, with a mind and personality of their own who make important dramatic changes and undergo a real evolution?

Or do you think they're just sidekicks, with no real part in the story (in the sense that they don't change much) and no actual development?

so, take the vote and explain why!
they are both real independent characters
87% (5)
Merry is, but Pippin isn't
3% (2)
Pippin is, but Merry isn't
0% (0)
neither are independent: they just run along
8% (5)
I don't even know which one is Pip and which one is Merry!
0% (0)
OlorinTheWhite
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Post RE: Merry & Pippin: comic relief or independent characters?
on: April 14, 2003 09:42
I couldn't find an answer I agreed with on that poll, so I'm putting my two cents in here!

I am hoping that they will undergo more change in ROTK, but as for now, I don't think that they have been developed fully.

We do realize that they(or at least Merry) understand the danger and seriousness of their quest after Merry's confrontation with Treebeard, where he explains that all of Middle Earth is at risk and that if the Ents do not help they will pay the consequences sooner or later after the Ring reaches Sauron.

Merry also understands that he and the hobbits and The Shire are at risk and that their homeland is more protected than they have realized.

While Pippin is understood now to think logically and actually have a brain, which he seemed to lack in Fellowship(Movie! Not books!)IMO, we can't really say the same for him unless, as I do, we consider him and Merry to be almost one.

Therefore, I believe that both Merry and Pippin after TTT appear to be able to think for themselves and make good decisions, but that in concordance with the books(I know, I know) they still have room to grow, and I would like to see that happen!
Galadriel_The_Hobbit
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Post RE: Merry & Pippin: comic relief or independent characters?
on: April 14, 2003 09:44
Do you think Merry and Pippin are full independent characters, with a mind and personality of their own who make important dramatic changes and undergo a real evolution?

YES!!! They are, very much so. They have completly different personalitys, it just so happens there best friends... And cousins! Merry is, aparently, one of the smartest hobbits. Whereas Pippin is... supposidly one of the stupidist. -_-

The fact that they hang about together most of the time doesn't mean they arn't there own hobbits. They are very much independant!

As for not doing much, Duy! They get the ents together and reck Isengard and do all that mad stuff.
They both go from short little people running around and having fun to Brave knights fighting bravly in battle!

I could probably have put that better... :blush:
OlorinTheWhite
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Post RE: Merry & Pippin: comic relief or independent characters?
on: April 14, 2003 09:59
I'm sorry; I meant that since their travels were together and that they experienced a lot together, that they probably went through the same changes as one another. I agree that they are their own hobbits, and I didn't say they didn't do much. I do think they did quite a lot, I think that they have a major impact on Middle-Earth, I just said I think that if to some people they don't appear fully developed yet it's because they have a way to go still in ROTK. I'm sorry if I offend anyone
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Post RE: Merry & Pippin: comic relief or independent characters?
on: April 14, 2003 11:44
its really difficult to seperate movies and books, because we knew the plot already (or i did) and knew the very different paths those two hobbits take...

the films took it to extremes i think, to better demonstrate the differnces. merry and pippin both in books and films, grow from carefree hobbits of the shire not really knowing their danger, into fighters and "adults" who know alot more about the world. (um i say in the films, cus im sure thats what will happen ) of course in the books you can see alot more of thier behaviour, you know more of their background (sons of two of the head families of the shire) and you see more of their relationships with each other. the films had the times cut of course, so you had to introuduce the carefree hobbits in a way that would demonstrate the dramatic changes, more visually (am i making sense?)

hence the fireworks and things. merry grew faster than pip of course, we all know that from the books, and again that was demonstrated in merrys "there wont be a shire" speech.... their parts in the story dont really become too crucial until RotK i really think they will come into thier own there....

as for them being simelar, they are... theres no getting away from it, both were supposed to be the carefree hobbits of the shire, who changed during the journey. tis ratehr difficult to change that, i can see how people might have difficulty distinguishing between them... but i think that will change in RotK.... ok am babbleing now!
Furry-footed_Nerf_Herder
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Post RE: Merry & Pippin: comic relief or independent characters?
on: April 14, 2003 01:28
Okay I definatly think that you see the hobbits grow. Pippin most of all. Well I should say that I voted for them being two independant characters. I think that this will be better exemplified in the X-DVD and in the third movie. You didn't get to see much of the two hobbits in TTT, so I think that you didn't get to see as much of their growth as you should have. But I think especially in TTT they emerged as two completly seperate characters with different roles. Hopefully (Crosses fingers), there will be even more seperation of the two hobbits and growth as their experiences continue.
sepdet
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Post RE: Merry & Pippin: comic relief or independent characters?
on: April 14, 2003 06:21
I think it differs a lot between FOTR and TTT, and between Merry and Pippin.

Both have "minds and personalities of their own" from the start, but are pretty stereotyped, especially Pip, who seems to me to remain the bumbler, the funny hobbit who gets into trouble, for all of FOTR except when he's sobbing over Gandalf -- perhaps feeling somewhat responsible for what's happened. He causes things to happen by accident. He moves the story along in a few places through his "Fool of a Took" stupidity. But I don't see much evidence of change.

Merry is a little more three dimensional in FOTR: he has his scamp/mischief-maker side, seen at the beginning, but suddenly becomes Mr. Competent-- "That rider was looking for something..." and "Buckleberry Ferry. Follow me." From then on, what little we see of him, he seems to be sharp-minded and competent. He doesn't get to do much else.

They're not totally flat... they go after the troll in anger and despair when their cousin Frodo gets pincushioned, and the orcs when Boromir gets pincushioned. Pretty much the same way. Again, little in the way of change, although both moments were some of their most memorable.

There's an interesting addition in the EE, when Galadriel tells Pippin, "You will find your courage." I think that was meant to show some tie-in to character development. It seemed a little forced and artificial to me, but perhaps I'm being hypocritical, since I see all the tiny details surrounding Legolas as adding to his character's depth.

In TTT Merry and Pippin both stop being comic relief (which role unfortunately devolves to Gimli) and, while they have funny moments, they seem a little more real. "I think maybe we made a mistake leaving the Shire, Pip." Again, Merry's the one who knows about the trees and ents, which suits the original character, who knew about the Old Forest and in general was the more competent of the pair. Ditto when he's trying to talk the ents into doing something. At the very end of TTT, Pippin suddenly "gets it" after Merry lectures him, and sprouts brains and personality. "Not this time." "I'm sorry, Treebeard." At that point, to me, he suddenly became a character, which Merry had been before, albeit a somewhat minor and therefore sketchy one.

I must address the books for a moment. Pippin in the books is feckless but the more outspoken of the two. Merry is the sharper of the pair, I think, but he's also such a softy, as he himself admits to Aragorn when Aragorn's healing him at one point. I just can't imagine this hard-edged Merry being so affectionate to Théoden, saying, "As a father you will be to me", and nattering about pipe-weed. I miss that, a wee bit. I haven't seen him evolving all that much, since he struck me as adaptable and fully grasping the situation from the moment he said "Buckleberry Ferry", but his speech to Pippin about the burning of the Shire certainly shows quite a lot of depth, about as much as you ever get in the supporting characters of films.

I suspect the added scene with Treebeard, which I think will be on the EE, will let us glimpse their characters a bit more.
Galadriel_The_Hobbit
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Post RE: Merry & Pippin: comic relief or independent characters?
on: April 15, 2003 12:12
Ok, just a thought, But how can we say how much they've changed in the films if the third isn't out yet!?!? They wern't featured so much in the 2nd, so we can't say much till the third is out. Cause they could cange and evolve alot in the third, like they did in the books...
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Post RE: Merry & Pippin: comic relief or independent characters?
on: April 15, 2003 01:19
I think that Merry and Pippin definitely evolved in the movies, into stand alone characters. This would depend a bit on the third movie, I guess, and how PJ decides to include the scenes with Pippin and Merry splitting up to go their separate ways. Therefore, we can't say for certain. But in comparing FOTR to TTT, there was definitely a shift from being Frodo's sidekicks and Boromir's little friends, to being major plot tools. After all, in the film, it was Merry and Pippin who brought the Ents to Isengard. That wouldn't have been possible without them, and Frodo wasn't there to convince them to do so.

Sepdet is right in saying that Merry and Pippin are rather stereotyped in the first film, but with TTT, much less so. They are separated from all save each other, and therefore can no longer go along with the actions of a group. I think we'll see their characters further develop as individuals in ROTK, as I think they were developed as a "team" in TTT. They grew together in the second installment.
merrysmaiden
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Post RE: Merry & Pippin: comic relief or independent characters?
on: April 16, 2003 10:36
Merry and Pippin are very real characters and not just some sidekicks that Peter Jackson decided to throw in the movie to make it better. They are there for a purpose to show how differently things will be in the third movie, compared to the first moive. They are there to make you think: What is going to happen to the Shire? How will Merry and Pippin survive? Will they ever see Frodo again? and many other things. They have a complete and whole putposes in these movies.
Figwit
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Post RE: Merry & Pippin: comic relief or independent characters?
on: April 18, 2003 06:51
so okay, I made the poll, I guess I should reply to it myself as well huh?

Personally, I feel a bit ambiguous about Merry and Pippin. As I said in sepdet's Big Picture post, the changes in Frodo's story arc reduces them to 30% of what they were in a book. But are they god movie characters, I wonder?

I'm inclined to say both yes and no.

Let me journey through the movie and discuss some crucial Merry & Pippin scenes.

First of all, there's the introduction at Bilbo's birthday Party, where the two Hobbits steal some firework, light it behind Gandalf's back and are punished by having to do the dishes.
What does this scene teach us about the two? First of all, that they're a twosome – they even resemble each other. They seem to be good friends, as well.
Then, they're introduced as mischievous: the look on Merry's face when he bites that apple before disappearing, the way Gandalf says something like 'I should have known'... all create the impression that these two are the local practical jokers, and lighting the firework is not their first masterpiece.
This scene also tells us something about the internal relations of this twosome: Merry is clearly 'the boss'. He's the one who picks out the required piece of firework ('No, the big one!'), he's the one who stands on the lookout and he's *not* the one that squeals like a girl when the fireworks go off [I know this was filmed more by accident, but still...].
They are independent in this scene, but their action is only meant to trigger a bit of an exciting scene which will remind book fans of both the original birthday party ánd the story of the Hobbits, and form an introduction to their own character. To kill three birds with one stone, indeed, but hardly a dramatically important action.

Next up is their encounter with Frodo and Sam in Farmer Maggot's field. Again, they are introduced together, and again they were stealing something. So, not only are they practical jokers, they're also plain thieves! *j/k*
This time, Pippin seems to be the more sensible of the two [which is an exception throughout the movie]: whilst running through dear Farmer Maggot's crops, it's Pippin that defends him and Merry that concludes with "My point is, he's clearly overreacting!", which of course he's not.
Again, Merry and Pippin provide comic relief in an otherwise highly charged sequence; Merry falling on top of one of the stolen carrots ('I think I've broken something') and Pippin declaring that this was a shortcut to... 'Mushrooms!'. They take some of the tension away, but again their actions are not dramatically important.
What is important, is that this is the scene that results in them accompanying Frodo and Sam to Bree. What does this tell us about them? That they're impulsive (strange for a pair of Hobbits not to go on a travel slightly more well-prepared, they don't even have spare clothes with them), loyal to Frodo and adventurous.

Running from the Ringwraith, there is a crucial scene for Merry. When Frodo tells him that they need to go to Bree, Merry says: "Bree, right. .... Buckleberry Ferry! Follow me!".
Merry is shown here as a very sensible Hobbit, who can make an important decision even when under great stress (and I would calling being followed around by a dirty curtain on horseback a stressful situation), who knows the area very well and who can take matters into his hands when necessary. In other words, Merry is established as a character with the capacities to be a leader. {Note that no such scenes are available for Frodo!}
The suggestion to use Buckleberry Ferry is actually dramatically very important, and it's not by coincidence but by Merry's good and quick thinking that the Hobbits escape the wraiths.

In Bree, we again see Merry and Pippin together, and this time it's Pippin that brings about a dramatic moment. Not like Merry through good thinking, but 'by accident'.
What happens is that, despite Frodo's warning to call him Mr. Underhill, despite the scary environment they're in and despite being hunted by Invisible Wraiths on Dark Horses; Pippin goes and tells a bunch of strangers about a certain Frodo Baggings. He actually even points at him!
What does this tell us about Pippin? Well, for starters, he's not afraid of creepy folk who keep hostile looking frets as pet. This is not because he's courageous, but because he's naive. Apparently, the filmmakers want us to think of this as due to his young age – they portray him as very very ignorant throughout the movie and even in this scene [not knowing what a pint is].
He's not only naive, he's also very forgetful: he forgot not to draw attention to Frodo and he also seemed to have forgotten why this was so important.
In fact, if he wasn't so very cuddly we'd think of him as an idiot, but at this point of the movie, we settle for feeling that he's just too young for this kind of adventure.
Of course this action of Pip's sets a whole chain of events in motion, leading up to their escape from the Ringwraiths with Strider's help, so in dramatic terms his character brings about a crucial moment in the movie. On the other hand, it's not because of a conscious decision or action, but because he's a fool of a Took.

Next stop Weathertop. And again, a very dubious situation. First there's the incident with the fire {and I've got a problem with that as well, because Strider advises them to make a fire to keep away the wraiths, in the book}, then there's the not-so-brave Hobbits that quickly move aside when a wraith-person moves towards them... Impression given by this scene: well, they're not heroes.

The next crucial Merry & Pippin scene is at the Council of Elrond, where again, they appear as an inseparable twosome with Merry being the smart one and Pippin the idiot.
In this scene, they take a decision that might cost them their lives. First, there's Sam who wants to accompany his Master Frodo, and you get a very 'aaaaaaa, friendship can be so wonderful' feeling. Then there's Merry and Pippin and taraaa: they discharge a very emotional and important scene.
"You need people of importance on this sort of quest... mission... thing."
"Well that rules you out then, Pip."
and then later: "So, where're we going?"
We get the impression that neither really knows what they're in for, and Pippin least of all. It amplifies the importance of their friendship with Frodo, but also makes them look very naive and rash. It's more of an impulsive thought than an actual decision. And it doesn't bring about a dramatic change – on the contrary, we get a continuation of the second scene I discussed, where Merry & Pippin sort of tumble into this journey.

The scene at Hollin only increases the image we have of Merry and Pippin as cuddly and funny child-like creatures, and serves only to create some amicable moments between the Fellowship before the action kicks in again.

And then there's Balin's Tomb, where we get another Pippin-moment. And again, Pippin triggers a whole chain of events by being an idiot – this time by dropping a skeleton down the well (in stead of throwing one measly stone to see how deep it is). By accident, he awakens not only an entire herd of Orcs but also a Balrog. Great going Pip!
Our impression of Pip as naive, clumsy yet cuddly is affirmed by this scene – and by this time the excuse of him being too young starts to give way to actual irritation: why do they take him along? What if he pulls a stunt like that in Mordor? [Agreed, it does say something about their friendship that Frodo takes this foolish little Hobbit with him...]

He gets a chance to make up when he and Merry fight off what could be described as a huge and murderous cavetroll, but though their efforts strike us as brave and loyal, we again get the impression that they don't know at all what they're doing – and if it weren't for Legolas they wouldn't have survived their exercise in standing on the shoulders of a giant.
Dramatic moment, yes indeed, but again as an instigator rather than as independent characters who move the plot along with their actions and decisions.

The next important Merry and Pippin moment is at Amon Hen, and is constituted out of two separate sequences.
First of all, there's the scene with Frodo and the Uruks, where Merry creates a diversion to allow Frodo to leave alone. This scene restores the connection between the Hobbits, and it allows Merry and Pippin to do something brave yet again, this time even seeking out a confrontation in stead of passively being forced to defend themselves.
Again, Merry is the sensible one, understanding immediately what Frodo is about to do and making the decision of trying to divert the Uruks' attention. Pippin kind of hobbles along, even finding some kind of childish joy in seeing their plan work... and not at all aware that he just risked his life.
So we get the same picture in a different situation: here again is the inseparable twosome with Merry as the bright, quick-thinking leader and Pippin as the naive and clumsy sidekick.

The second sequence of this Merry and Pippin moment is Boromir's death. Now, we've already seen that Hobbits don't react too well when confronted with death, and this time it's not the distant leader (Gandalf) but the friend and keeper who's first concern was their well-being (portrayed so beautifully on Caradhras).
This time, their reaction is not passive but active: in stead of dropping to their knees in defeat, or running away now that there's no longer an accomplished warrior around to defend them, they pick up their swords and attack. In the extended version, we even see how they actually attack and Uruk and perhaps even kill him.
Something very important happens here, because this time they don't look naive or desperate, but they actually make a heroic impression. This enhances the effect of their luring the Uruks away and gives some credibility to the events in TTT.

During the sequences with the Uruks, it's Pippin that takes over the role of leader. He is the one that tears his brooch off and drops it as a clue for the trackers, he's the one that manages to cut his bonds. Merry doesn't fall to the background for once, but remains his witty self, remembering the Old Forest and later on recognising Treebeard as an Ent.

We don't get a lot to see from Merry and Pippin, but two other scenes are worth mentioning when we speak of character development.
First of all there's the Entmoot, where again we are faced with the twosome and where once again Pippin's the silly on ('That's good...') and Merry as the wise one ('Our friends are out there, they need our help!').
This effect is enhanced by that wonderful 'We have the Shire' bit, where Pippin's naivety reaches a definite peak and Merry's wisdom sums up quite accurately what this second movie and on the whole the entire story is about: 'There won't be a Shire, Pip.' It's not just about saving someone else's land, it's also about saving your own.
But Pippin reaches beyond himself a first time when he states that perhaps they're too small for an adventure this size: he actually diagnoses himself. And cures himself when he talks Treebeard into walking them to Isengard.

Now, how did Pippin know what to expect? There are several possibilities: perhaps his plan *was* to sneak by Isengard unseen, though this seems unlikely because of the previous scene where Merry makes it quite clear that there's nothing to go back to (although Pippin might also believe that they'd better return and warn the Shire, much like Elrond stated in the books).
If it was Pippin's plan to change Treebeard's mind by showing him the destruction of Isengard, then perhaps it was a lucky guess based on the fact that smoke rose from Isengard, or maybe based on what he saw sitting on top of Treebeard's head. Or, the Hobbits being real storytellers, perhaps the story of what happened to Gandalf *was* shared with him, revealing to him the damage done to the trees.
Whatever it was, it works, and this is the third time in the movies that Pippin triggers a chain of events, this time by a deliberate action.


So, on the whole, my conclusion is that they both are independent characters (because they both have a separate and different identity) who make important dramatic decisions (Merry by leading them to Buckleberry Ferry, and Pippin by dropping the brooch and sending Treebeard to Isengard).
Do they evolve? Pippin, in my opinion, clearly evolves: at the very end he does not only understand his own position in the game, but he also manages to get the Ents involved in the war (however unlikely these scenes seem to most bookies) and in doing this he severs the link with Merry (he already did that when he took off the brooch, and he does it again when he instructs Treebeard without consulting Merry beforehand).
Merry, on the other hand, doesn't... yet. Of course we can't really say anything real based on only two movies, but so far Merry's still Merry: he's still the smarter Hobbit, he's still a bit of a silent thinker and he's still half of a twosome.

All this to say, I think it's a very complicated and difficult discussion.
Faramirs_first_kiss
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Post RE: Merry & Pippin: comic relief or independent characters?
on: May 07, 2003 07:26
Well, what can I say after Figwit's marathon post? They are definite characters in my opinion, although they are taken to extremes, especially Pippin, to try and help you make a distinction. I couldn't tell them apart at the beginning of FOTR, and by the end I couldn't believe anyone could confuse the two! Even my eight year old brother to whom I have just shown FOTR for the first time said, quite close to the end, "That's Merry, isn't it? They look the same, but he's being sensible and the other one's being silly". An innocent, accurate statement.

I'll add that I think the two are only mixed up because they look so similar. The visual side is so important in a film. Listen to the sound without the pictures and you'd swear the two developed as much as Legolas or Gimli, and were just as different. Comic relief? Well, they're funny, but that's not what they're their for.
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Figwit
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Post RE: Merry & Pippin: comic relief or independent characters?
on: May 08, 2003 11:53
Well, what can I say after Figwit's marathon post?


hehe, Faramir's First Kiss... I tend to do that don't I? Had complaints about that {even from my dear sis :love:}
Lady-Arwen
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Post RE: Merry & Pippin: comic relief or independent characters?
on: May 09, 2003 11:58
Hey Figwit!! Excellent post and a very insightful and fun read!

I will tell you that I think I must have agreed with everything you said!! It is very clear you have thought this through!

I think it’s interesting some of the things you noted, like Merry taking charge over the whole fireworks thing. It's interesting that Pippin actually accuses that it was "his idea".

Another interesting thing about Merry (I feel) in the Buckleberry Ferry incident is that he comes up to Frodo and flat out says "That black rider was looking for something or someone" after a pause saying 'Frodo' by way of prompting. This proves that he instantly picks up on the fact that the rider was looking for something, that Frodo knows what it is, and that he's running. It is interesting also to note that this line comes right on the heals of Pippin giving a frustrated "What is going on?" which lays in very well with the idea that Merry had a much better perception of the situation on a whole.

In truth I think I've always set Merry apart as being older, more sensible and more able to adjust to a serious atmosphere. Unless the case is especially dire it seems that Pippin bounces along on his naiveté whereas Merry changes with the mood. He only becomes the comic counterpart Shire scenes or the occasional lull like the Hollin scene. In general however he tends to keep serious when Pippin is still trapped in the world of the slightly oblivious.

I think the scene with the Ents really brought this out with the "That's good" vs. "Our friends are out there"

See, I think people have a much easier time saying that Pippin is Independent whereas it’s sometimes harder with Merry. In the end some people may say that he could have probably been skipped altogether, but I think Merry, even in the movies, plays a significant roll, for within the Fellowship he stands out as the only person who must not deal with all the stress and worry of the Ring (Frodo, Aragorn, Boromir, Sam), who gives off a relentless ‘Hobbity’ never-say-doom personality (Gimli, Legolas) and still has as strange amount of young innocence (Gandalf) and I have all ready pointed out where he differs from Pippin, making him unique from everyone but I think he does have the hardest time parting from Pippin.

Each member of the Fellowship I believe to be Independent, though I think a certain amount of backing does come from the book, I know that some of my friends who have only ever seen the movies sometimes do have a hard time telling the two apart, but in my opinion there ARE distinct differences.

Maybe it’s simply up to us people who have probably seen the moves more times than is good for us to notice these differences

~*~Lady Arwen
drunken_elf
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Post RE: Merry & Pippin: comic relief or independent characters?
on: May 09, 2003 10:48
Well I don't know what's left to say that hasn't been said already..They have all been great and interesting posts (Figwit's in particular, that was enjoyable to read..long though it may be!), and I agree with most of what has been said here..So I'll just be short in adding my two cents worth:

I think Merry and Pip are definately independent characters, no questions about it. It is hard to judge them from FOTR and what we've seen of TTT, because the end of TTT leading on to ROTK is where we really focus on them, and we actually get a chance to see them growing and learning as they go. But my general feeling is that as the movies progress, they tend to become less dependent on other people, and take initiative themselves to do things e.g. Pippin and the Ents. This will definately be important next time around, because they will both find themselves in situations where they really have to make a lot of decisions themselves.

So, basically...To ROTK!
Figwit
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Post RE: Merry & Pippin: comic relief or independent characters?
on: May 10, 2003 06:32
Another interesting thing about Merry (I feel) in the Buckleberry Ferry incident is that he comes up to Frodo and flat out says "That black rider was looking for something or someone" after a pause saying 'Frodo' by way of prompting. This proves that he instantly picks up on the fact that the rider was looking for something, that Frodo knows what it is, and that he's running. It is interesting also to note that this line comes right on the heals of Pippin giving a frustrated "What is going on?" which lays in very well with the idea that Merry had a much better perception of the situation on a whole.

~Lady Arwen


Lady-Arwen!! that's been quite a while :love:

that's a very good point [and I missed it ]
Lady-Arwen
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Post RE: Merry & Pippin: comic relief or independent characters?
on: May 10, 2003 07:13
Lady-Arwen!! that's been quite a while


Yes it has!! It's great to 'see' ya!

that's a very good point [and I missed it ]


But Figwit you hit every single other detail!

So, basically...To ROTK!


Yes drunken_elf, I would say that anyway!

~*~Lady Arwen
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Post RE: Merry & Pippin: comic relief or independent characters?
on: May 10, 2003 10:04
See, I think people have a much easier time saying that Pippin is Independent whereas it’s sometimes harder with Merry. In the end some people may say that he could have probably been skipped altogether, but I think Merry, even in the movies, plays a significant roll, for within the Fellowship he stands out as the only person who must not deal with all the stress and worry of the Ring (Frodo, Aragorn, Boromir, Sam), who gives off a relentless ‘Hobbity’ never-say-doom personality (Gimli, Legolas) and still has as strange amount of young innocence (Gandalf) ...

...Another interesting thing about Merry (I feel) in the Buckleberry Ferry incident is that he comes up to Frodo and flat out says "That black rider was looking for something or someone" after a pause saying 'Frodo' by way of prompting. This proves that he instantly picks up on the fact that the rider was looking for something, that Frodo knows what it is, and that he's running. It is interesting also to note that this line comes right on the heals of Pippin giving a frustrated "What is going on?" which lays in very well with the idea that Merry had a much better perception of the situation on a whole.


My thoughts exactly (but perhaps not as eloquently put)

[Edited on 10/5/2003 by mdcribb]
Arien_Aldaríon
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Post RE: Merry & Pippin: comic relief or independent characters?
on: May 10, 2003 10:37
I think they are tag a longs in the sense they don't have much of a part in the movies, but they also bring humour into the darkness and they are Frodos friends which "help" him.
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Post RE: Merry & Pippin: comic relief or independent characters?
on: January 02, 2004 10:43
Long live Return of the King! That's all I have to say, really, on this matter.

Well, I wouldn't be me if I wasn't able to elaborate a little.

First of all, the amount of screen time given to Merry and Pippin substantially increased. The main reason for this is that they are now at the center of the action, and the characters are divided over several focal points so they are no longer background figures but really have to do things themselves.
This is a big change from Fellowship Of the Ring where they did have quite some screen time but, as I demonstrated above, they were also used for secondary purposes. They were not at the heart of the action, but often (unwilling) instigators or comic relief.
In The Two Towers there's the infamous '50 Minute Gap' (the saddest 50 minutes in movie history according to Monaghan), and the scenes that do have Merry and Pippin in them are very short and often rather pointless, added only to provide the necessary information to be able to insert the Last March of the Ents.
I was afraid that they would get a similar treatment in Return of the King, but thankfully Jackson decided to make this a Hobbit film, and so they ended up in the focal point of the story.

Merry has seen some of his scenes cut out, mainly the moment where he swears allegiance to Théoden and his recovery in the Houses of Healing. But still, there's plenty of him on screen, and hardly anything of it is in line with the previous Merry & Pippin-routine. Pippin's role was also somewhat reduced (the parts with Beregond were all removed), but still he is very present on the screen and has become the heart of the movie's story.

They have more active parts too. When Pippin looks into the palantír, that's still him causing or instigating a series of events (Sauron thinking that Saruman has the Ring-bearer, Aragorn being exposed to Sauron, Gandalf having to leave for Minas Tirith with Pippin) without doing something consciously. But when he offers to service to Denethor, that's something he does all by himself – and this will later enable him not just to be included in the battle (which is something new for Pippin altogether), but also to save Faramir's life.
His reaction to Denethor and the subsequent song (which hints clearly at not only his longing to go home but also, as he calls it, the 'evil times' he's in) show that he has matured, and the same goes for that moment when Gandalf tells him about death (or what that is to him, as a Maia).
This results in it being Pippin who finds Merry and promising him to 'take care of' him.

Merry also grows visibly: the way he says goodbye to Pippin but then runs after him nonetheless, his desire to fight (although his fear and anxiety shine through in the scene where Éowyn dresses him up) and his participating in the battle culminate in the moment where he (out of bravery or stupidity who knows) stabs the Witch-king and thus enables Éowyn to kill him.

In the second half of the film we see them reunited, but we also notice that something has changed: when they await doom in front of the Black Gates, they are stern and almost grim, determined. Though their love for Frodo shines through when they rush to the gate only seconds after Aragorn departs.

I guess they don't actually do more in Return Of the King, they just do more significant things.

I have to add that I was completely blown away by Billy Boyd's acting performance: it was amazing. If Sean Astin and Andy Serkis hadn't been a little more amazing still, Boyd would have been my favourite in the Oscar race if only for portraying the transition from comic relief-sidekick to a heroic character with psychological depth. He manages to leave the childish veil behind but still guard Pippin's naivety which enables him to capture the essence of this Hobbit. He's clearly a lot more than I gave him credit for.


[Edited on 3/1/2004 by Figwit]
Tinuvien
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Post RE: Merry & Pippin: comic relief or independent characters?
on: January 04, 2004 09:36
I voted for the first one- I think, by now, they have evolved into their own characters.

If you had asked me this after the first movie- I would have said, no, they are just sidekicks for one another. They are always together, both generally stirring up an equal amount of trouble (Pip more often).

But, by the time we see them in ROTK, they are separated and torn apart, by their OWN actions (or Pip's) and you finally realize that these once terribly innocent hobbits are subject to consequences also.

Even though, as all of us we say : Merry AND Pippin together, usually, they are very different from one another. This has been said before. Like in the Extended version of TTT, Merry is usually seen as the older, taller, maybe even more RESPONSIBLE (if that's not a stretch) hobbit. Pippin is much more child like in the 1st two movies, and Merry is left to pick up the slcak, I think. Merry has to almost explain to Pip in TTT about how things won't go back to normal after the war, and all about the Ents. But Pippin should be given some credit. He is seen much more (or I think) than Merry in the Theatrical Cut. He is learning to finally adjust with his surrondings, and to deal with things a little on his own (with Denethor). He also practically saves Faramir- and even in the book he warns Gandalf about Denethor's Pyre. Merry, too, uses his courage and goes to fight with Eowyn. They become very indep. in the last film.

So, there are always differences in opinions, but by now, and from seeing all of the movies- they have both evolved an incredible amount since the beginning.
vaya
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Post RE: Merry & Pippin: comic relief or independent characters?
on: January 04, 2004 10:59
The hobbits in general grow the most out of all the characters in the story.

Merry and Pippin grow (no pun intended) in amazing, yet rather predictable ways. They take more after Bilbo does than Frodo, so their growth is rather like his in the Hobbit.

Sam is the one who truly grows as a character to new and exciting levels.

Still, Merry and Pippin are among my favorite characters....they grow by becoming more of that which was already there. They gain confidence in themselves and their abilities, whereas Sam discovers hidden strengths he didn't know he had.
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Post RE: Merry & Pippin: comic relief or independent characters?
on: January 04, 2004 12:10
Oh, gosh, I really don't know. There are definately many different answers to this question. I think that in the first movie Pippin was just used to get a few laughs out of the audience with Merry as his sidekick. And that's about it. In the second movie they don't really do that much at all, but at the same time they provide no comic relief either. The third movie though I think they really do grow. Merry shows a different side to himself when he asks to fight but is denied, and Pippin actually shows real valor. At their high points they even bring tears to your eyes. So the answer is that there really is no answer.
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Post RE: Merry & Pippin: comic relief or independent characters?
on: January 05, 2004 04:36
Merry and Pippin grow (no pun intended) in amazing, yet rather predictable ways. They take more after Bilbo does than Frodo, so their growth is rather like his in the Hobbit.


I like that comparison: indeed, they find sides to themselves which were always there. I think Frodo like Sam has to reach outward, exceed himself in many ways.

I've always liked the fact that due to the Ents they actually drow in size as well.
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Post RE: Merry & Pippin: comic relief or independent characters?
on: January 05, 2004 03:19
Merry and Pippin grow (no pun intended) in amazing, yet rather predictable ways. They take more after Bilbo does than Frodo, so their growth is rather like his in the Hobbit.


I like that comparison: indeed, they find sides to themselves which were always there. I think Frodo like Sam has to reach outward, exceed himself in many ways.

I've always liked the fact that due to the Ents they actually drow in size as well.

I agree there, I think the hobbits definately grow most of all the characters. I agree that Merry and Pippin do "grow into themselves", whereas Frodo and Sam, as you say, have to extend themselves. And I love that their personal growth is mirrored by their physical growth .
Niennafefalas
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Post RE: Merry & Pippin: comic relief or independent characters?
on: January 06, 2004 09:09
I think they are both independant characters but at the same time are what stops the films becoming dark and without hope.
I don't think they were just tagging along on the journey because they both proved themselves later on in the story, they both fought to defend middle earth and were loyal to the fellowship, and it was down to Pippin that the ents attacked Isengard, if he hadn't said anything, Saruman could have made more armies and would probably have made Middle Earth as bad as if sauron had got the ring back.
I wouldn't say they were *side kicks* for each other, i just think that they prefer being together. Pippin still manages to be Pippin in Gondor without Merry, and Merry manages to be Merry in Rohan without Pippin, even though they miss each other and would prefer to be together.
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Post RE: Merry & Pippin: comic relief or independent characters?
on: January 15, 2004 08:18
I think they're indipendant characters and when I read the books, I found a connection with Pippin and also in the movie. So I'm naive and sometimes stupid but also trusthworthy. I think Pippin and Merry are indipendant characters and are different too each other, maybe that's what makes them friends, being each others opposite? Figwits post made me think and I'll think about those stuff, the next time I'll see FOTR, TTT and ROTK. Also I like to see this parallel with Merry and Pippin stealing the fireworks in and causing mayhem in FOTR to when they rush after Aragorn in the Battle at the Black Gates- I think I've never seen sch a transformation to two characters ever! So my opinion is that they are indipendant characters that, I think, makes the story more human, because you got Aragorn (the king), Gandalf (the leader) and all of the other characters who have seen battle (exception of Frodo). Merry and Pippin, and Sam make the story more human, in my humble opinon.
Mara
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Post RE: Merry & Pippin: comic relief or independent characters?
on: January 15, 2004 07:50
I believe that they are both independent characters. They both have their own personalities, and manage to play important roles in the story. Not to mention that they both took on their own roles in the different kingdoms - Merry with Rohan, and Pippin with Gondor. I honestly can't understand people who don't know the difference between the two! Especially with the movies...they're played by two totally different people, guys! lol Actually, they are two of my favourite characters, along with Legolas, Gimli, Haldir and Gollum/Smeagol. I know...it's quite the list! lol Add into that the fact that I think my personality is most closely matched to Pippin... heh heh heh...yeah, I'd have touched the Palantir too...:blush: Anyway, I forgot what I was gonna say, so I'll just end this now before I start sounding REALLY stupid! lol
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Post RE: Merry & Pippin: comic relief or independent characters?
on: January 15, 2004 08:02
Nice respond CelebGwilwileth!

I would also have to say that they are totally different characters! I would have to say that they both went through big developments.

Not only did they each swear service to a king/ steward... but there were other scenes as well. Remember the whole scene in TTT where they had given up on trying to convince Treebeard to go fight? When Pippin say "We still have the shire?" It is at that point I think that Pippin catches on to the fact that they are not just in some adventure.

There are so many scenes like that throughout all three movies! Although I do have to say that I think there could have been a bit more development, and less of them playing comic releif roles! But what can you do? lol
RosieT
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Post RE: Merry & Pippin: comic relief or independent characters?
on: January 18, 2004 12:56
Pippin isn't intended to be shown as stupid, and I think it's doing him an injustice to suggest that he is.

Pippin is essentially a child - he's a total innocent, raised as the youngest in a wealthy family, and a much wanted son after three daughters. He's most likely been spoilt, and has never had to be afraid of anything in his perfect life.

Pippin doesn't understand what's going on. His life has always been about laughter and love, and having fun. Combine that with his age, and you have someone who is naive and trusting, and with the curiousity of a child.

Pippin's story is not about an idiot who finds a brain. It's about a boy from a comparitively sheltered background, thrown into the turmoil of evil, death and war. He needs to adapt, to grow, to mature, and he does this over the three pictures. Without the naive and foolish Pippin, you wouldn't recognise the change there is by the end.

And if you think about it - if they hadn't taken Pippin along, they may not have lost Gandalf, and everything would have turned out differently. In many ways Pippin was actually far more important to the quest than Merry.

Both definitely independent characters. They may have shared a love of mischief, and having a good time, but there are two personalities there.

And for the record Billy Boyd's performance in ROTK was absoutely stunning.
Arawyn
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Post RE: Merry & Pippin: comic relief or independent characters?
on: August 21, 2004 03:24
They're definatly independant characters!

In the first film they seemed really, well, stupid, and really were 'just-there'...But (in TTT) when they're cpatured, they have more of a spotlight, and we see their different personalities a lot stronger. The comic relief element is pretty much dented by the time Pippin steals the Palantir, and gone when Merry is denyed the right to fight for his friends.

When they're sepparated (in ROTK), and we see their different paths, they become pretty important to the storyline. There was definantly no comic releif in the Battle of Pelennor Fields, or The Pyre of Denethor...

So Merry and Pippin are actually different from eachother, but they're similar as well. Making them independant characters in The Lord of the Rings.
pippinsgurl41
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Post RE: Merry & Pippin: comic relief or independent characters?
on: August 21, 2004 05:44
Heres the deal- i think that they sort of are and sort of not cause they are independant together and apart but better together and they do evolve just its not as visible to us as evryone else now im rambling and makinmyself dizzy :dizzy: bye!!!
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Post RE: Merry & Pippin: comic relief or independent characters?
on: August 21, 2004 07:29
I think that Merry and Pippin really develop throughout the three films, and in the first film, they were very much the comic relief, but they still did a good job, I think. The large jump between the stupid Merry, ("I think I've broken something!") to the smart, cool, Merry, ("Bockleberry ferry; follow me.") is quite unconvincing though.
In the second film, they get smarter, and less of the comic relief, which is good, but instead the comic relief gets passed on to Gimli, because this is when Merry and Pippin have to start growing a backbone, which is disappointing.
In the third film though, they really come out into their own. It genuinly moves me when Merry rides into battle with Eowyn, and when Pippin tells Gandalf that he "never thought it would end this way." I think Billy and Dom did a great job of playing them aswell, though not perfect.
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Post RE: Merry & Pippin: comic relief or independent characters?
on: December 31, 2004 08:57
Hmmm...well...I couldn't pick one so I'd have to say: both! They do provide comic relief, but they're also a pretty vital "addition" to the story. For example: (in the movie anyway) Merry helped to kill the Witch King by stabbing him in the back in ROTK, thereby, giving Eowyn a "free shot". I don't recal Pippin doing much, but he DID help Gandalf out by killing that orc-dude in Minas Tirith.

Soooo...."half-and-half".
RosieT
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Post RE: Merry & Pippin: comic relief or independent characters?
on: December 31, 2004 11:19
I don't recal Pippin doing much, but he DID help Gandalf out by killing that orc-dude in Minas Tirith.



He didn't just kill the orc, but saved Gandalf's life by doing so. He was also responsible for saving the life of Faramir.

They started off as comic relief - ended as integral and important members of the Fellowship.
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