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LadyCeleborn
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Post When an Elf and a mortal marry?
on: May 22, 2003 01:00
For those of us who have read the LOTR books know, Aragorn and Arwen marry. Aragorn being mortal and Arwen being an Elf. Aragorn is given the choice when to die :cry: for his heroic deeds and Arwen dies not long after that. In the appendix of the ROTK book there is mention to their son, Eldarion (who became the next King) and their daughters. Their children would be "half-elven".....but would they be mortal or immortal? Would they have the choice? Elrond and his brother were given the choice and we know that Elrond chose Elf and his brother to become mortal from which the Numenor line began, correct? So, shouldn't Aragorn and Arwen's children be given that choice too?

[Edited on 25/1/2004 by atalante_star]
Lady-Arwen
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Post RE: When an Elf and a mortal marry?
on: May 22, 2003 01:10
No actually they don't have the choice.

You see, when Elrond and Elros were given the choice Elros chose to be a mortal, Elrond chose to be immortal. So Elros and his decendents (including Aragorn) would be mortal. But since Elrond chose immortality the choice was passed onto his children (Elladan, Elrohir and Arwen).

Now apply that same senario to Arwen.

Arwen, like her Uncle Elros, chose mortality, so that all her decendents (Eldarion and his sisters) would be mortal like her. And of course Aragorn was all ready mortal.

See? It's really a little confusing, but there it is

~*~Lady Arwen
LadyCeleborn
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Post RE: When an Elf and a mortal marry?
on: May 22, 2003 01:57
Excellent explantion.... Now, let's change the theory a little. Couldn't Arwen marry Aragorn and retain her immortality? Did she really have to choose between a mortal life and being immortal? Of course, thats an awful long time to be a widow.....:cry: If she remained immortal would that have given her children the choice? Or do we chalk it up to the DNA and say that Aragorn's mortal genes override Arwens?
Lady-Arwen
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Post RE: When an Elf and a mortal marry?
on: May 22, 2003 03:36
*laughs* The interesting thing about that question is that I am not entirely sure how the whole 'in order to marry a mortal you must become a mortal' thing worked anyway, for some reason or another both Tinuviel and Arwen could only marry mortal men if they were mortal themselves and that meant making their choice that way. I have NO idea why that was so important, but apperently it was, just one of those bizarre conditions.

The ONLY theory I have in that direction is based on the story of Beren and Tinuviel in the Silmarillion. That after Beren died from wolf-bite Luthien passed off to Mandos and sang so mournfully that Mandos told her she could either remain immortal or live a mortal life with Beren. She chose a mortal life with Beren and Mandos (somehow or another) put them both back on Middle Earth.

Then later Arwen said that 'hers was the choice of Luthien'....I have no clue why. Anyway, that's all I really know for sure

~*~Lady Arwen
Lollypop
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Post RE: When an Elf and a mortal marry?
on: May 22, 2003 07:26
I'm again referring to the part in the appendices of LoTR where it is said Elrond's children *had* to leave Middle Earth with him; if they stayed behind, it ment they had chosen mortality. So Arwen couldn't have gotten to Valinor, even if she'd wanted to marry Aragorn AND stay immortal.

But the way I see it, the story of Arwen and Aragorn is about LOVE. Arwen loved Aragorn so much she didn't want to live without him, and that's what makes it so beautiful...
Nienna-of-the-Valar
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Post RE: When an Elf and a mortal marry?
on: May 22, 2003 07:28
. Couldn't Arwen marry Aragorn and retain her immortality? Did she really have to choose between a mortal life and being immortal?


She absolutely could have, but then, as you said, she would have spent all the rest of her life without him. When Aragorn dies, he goes wherever it is that Men go. Even when she tired of Middle-earth, Arwen could not be reunited with Aragorn. She would be in Aman, and he would be somewhere else. So, by choosing to be mortal, she will be able to go with Aragorn always.

Arwen does choose the same fate as Luthien, but not exactly, for the story of Luthien is different. The Valar tell Luthien that, if they return Beren from the dead, she must become mortal also to stay with him, or retire to Valinor and spend the rest of her days there without him. So, the choice of Luthien was made such because she asked for Beren to be returned to her from the dead. Arwen chooses the same fate as Luthien, but under different circumstances. Hope that helps



Let me add that what Lollypop says is true, Arwen had to make her choice when Elrond leaves Middle-earth. But, I think she could probably have decided she wanted to be immortal and still stay in Middle-earth for a time, but why would she have, considering what I have said above

[Edited on 5/23/2003 by Nienna-of-the-Valar]
SayenElfJedi
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Post RE: When an Elf and a mortal marry?
on: May 24, 2003 12:35
Ok, i have a question... in the fotr, elrond was like 2 arwen (not quoted)- if you marry aragorn, you will become a mortal and give up all your elvish heritage, blah blah blah. but in the tt, elrond was again speading to arwen (again not quoted)-and he was saying all this stuff about how if arwen marrried aragorn, she would see him die and the her children die and all that stuff. so would she remain mortal or immortal. :dizzy: is this making any sense to anyone or am i just rambling on and on and on...
Lollypop
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Post RE: When an Elf and a mortal marry?
on: May 24, 2003 07:50
You're making perfect sense to me Sayen... great minds think alike!

Basically both things Elrond said are true:

1. Arwen will give up her immortality, and her elven heritage if she becomes the queen of Men.

2. I think Elrond had "a vision" about what will happen when Aragorn dies. He will die before Arwen, and Arwen's faith is to be a mourning widow. In the books she lived a year after Aragorn's death, wandering in the dying Lothlórien, before she finally lay down and died.
Nienna-of-the-Valar
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Post RE: When an Elf and a mortal marry?
on: June 06, 2003 12:02
So does this mean that Elladan and Elrohir died as mortals too?



It is never explicitly stated in LOTR what their choice unltimately was, but I think that everyone who believes that the choice had to be made when Elrond left, probably believes that they did choose a mortal life. This choice by the brothers would also help to explain why Elrond finds it so difficult to accept that Arwen has chosen a mortal life; he is losing all of his children. Very sad for him.
Nienna-of-the-Valar
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Post RE: When an Elf and a mortal marry?
on: June 07, 2003 08:23
Really? I always preffered to think that they sailed after a while.

Probably because it's happier that way.


Yes, runaround, unfortunately things don't always end as we'd like

Many Tolkien scholars believe that the choice of Elrond's children had to be made when Elrond himself sailed into the West. It says in the books that Elladan and Elrohir remained after Elrond left, so many believe that they indeed chose to be mortal and remain in Middle-earth, forever hunting Orcs to avenge the hurt done to their mother. If they chose to be counted among Men, they would live a long life, but would die eventually, as Arwen does. Very sad

There are, of course, other interpretations, but it is my belief that they chose to be counted among Men.




Another point that kingurl brought up:

Aragorn has some elf in him too. And from what I understand, he's the only full-blooded Numenorean left, so he's gonna live a friggin' long time, and he gets to choose when he dies right?? I dunno. So in theory, his children could live as long as they want, unless they're killed. That's my theory, but I could be WAY off center.



Aragorn does indeed live a long life. He is 210 years old when he dies. His children would live a very long life, but they cannot simply live "as long as they want". They would die eventually, but rather than that, I think they would choose to lay down and die while they were still of sound mind. Does this make sense?

Ummm, OK, let me try again, rather than grow old and senile, or extremely ill, they could sense that their time was over and lay down to die, while they still had their wits about them. I don't know if I'm explaining this well :dizzy: Anyway, they could choose when to die, but could not live forever if they wanted to.
Sillende
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Post RE: When an Elf and a mortal marry?
on: June 10, 2003 08:41
I don't know if this is about the discussion here but I wanted to state soemthing, I don't know if some you know but there were three elven woman who chose to imortal so they could marry and forever be with their love and they were all related in some way if somewhat distantly. There was Luthien and the I think oh I forgot her name I would have to look it up and Arwen.

Oh and another thing is, the elves that stay in Middle Earth though I do not know if Tolkien kept this idea but soon the elves began to fade since there were so few and some people in a way stpped believing they were truley there so they began to fade from memory and the earth. So in fact if this idea was still kept, Elladan and Elrohir could have stayed in Middle Earth and remain immortal.
glorfys_girl
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Post RE: When an Elf and a mortal marry?
on: June 10, 2003 11:24
concerning the twins: the only thing we can be almost totally sure of is that they made the same choice. being ELVEN twins, they'd be really close... right? I mean, even though elrond and elros were twins, and elros became mortal... well...I'm not sure anymore... by the way- where in the books does it say that Elladan and Elrohir are twins? or Elrond and Elros, for that matter? I know that the RotK apendices say that they were born in the same year, but still...
Nienna-of-the-Valar
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Post RE: When an Elf and a mortal marry?
on: June 10, 2003 07:57
Sillende said:

I don't know if some you know but there were three elven woman who chose to imortal so they could marry and forever be with their love and they were all related in some way if somewhat distantly



Luthien did indeed choose to be counted among mortals because she wanted Beren to live and she to live with him


Idril was an Elf, who wed Tuor, who was a Man. But, she did not choose to be counted among the mortals. She and Tuor sailed into the West and "in after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men."

Arwen did choose to become mortal to remain with Aragorn in life and whatever comes after.


Sillende said:
Oh and another thing is, the elves that stay in Middle Earth though I do not know if Tolkien kept this idea but soon the elves began to fade since there were so few and some people in a way stpped believing they were truley there so they began to fade from memory and the earth. So in fact if this idea was still kept, Elladan and Elrohir could have stayed in Middle Earth and remain immortal.



The problem with this theory is that they were Half-Elven. To the Half-Elven was given a choice, they could become mortal or remain immortal. Elrond's children had this choice and I personally think it had to be made when Elrond left Middle-earth. We know that Arwen chose to me mortal so the children that she bore to Aragorn would be mortal and have no choice. But we also know that Elladan and Elrohir remained behind after Elrond left, and that they had a great hatred of the Orcs for what they did to Celebrian. Since they stayed behind it would seem that they chose to be counted among mortal Men and continued to hunt Orcs until the end of their days. The rest of the Elven race could stay if they wanted to and fade and be forgotten...


glorfys_girl said
by the way- where in the books does it say that Elladan and Elrohir are twins? or Elrond and Elros, for that matter? I know that the RotK apendices say that they were born in the same year, but still...


Of course now I cannot find it, damn, but it would be pretty difficult for two children to be born in the same year and not be twins. I think that Elves carry their children for 1 year before they are born anyway, so it would be near impossible to have 2 in the same year. Plus in Appendix B it says T.A." 109 Birth of Elladan and Elrohir, sons of Elrond". I would think that if they were not born at the same time it would have given separate dates. I'll keep searching though for the reference which says that they are indeed twins.
ladylirenel
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Post RE: When an Elf and a mortal marry?
on: June 13, 2003 03:09
In my heart the twins remain immortal and eventually, like after Arwen's , go over the sea to Valinor. I mean, Iluvator is not an evil guy, he wouldn't let some elves like Legolas leave after the Ringbearers but not let the twins just because of the circumstances of their birth. On the other hand, you have the whole, spirits-of-men-come-back-for-Armeggedon deal and the end of the world thing so if they became mortal they would not be entirely sundered from their parents. (I'm grasping for strings here)
Nienna-of-the-Valar
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Post RE: When an Elf and a mortal marry?
on: June 15, 2003 09:26
Beren and Luthien had children, and Luthien's granddaughter Elwing married the Numenorean Earendil. She gave up immortality



I'm sorry EwoynTBF, but I think you are a wee bit confused here. Earendil was not a Numenorean. He is the father of the first Kings, but there was no Numenor until after Earendil made his trip to Valinor. Earendil and Elwing are both Half-elven. Earendil's parents are Tuor (Man) and Idril (Elf). Elwing's parents are Dior (Man) and Nimloth (Elf). Earendil and Elwing never gave up their immortality, in fact they both chose to be counted among the Eldar kindred, so were immortal. The choice was given as a special case to Earendil, Elwing, Elrond, and Elros, to be counted either among the mortal or the immortal kindreds. Then, because Elrond chose to be immortal, the choice was then extended to his children as well. Once you chose to be mortal, that was it, your children then were mortal and had no choice.
aragorns_elf_princess
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Post RE: When an Elf and a mortal marry?
on: June 16, 2003 07:40
hey, I have been reading what's being discussed and it's all really interesting, if not confusing at times. Just lemme see if I have this straight, please correct me where I go wrong
OK, Elrond was given the choice to be mortal but he chose immortality and his brother didn't. His two sons chose to be mortal to hunt orcs to avenge their mother and Arwen chose to be mortal to marry Aragorn and because they were both mortal their children were. Here are my questions so far hehe sorry...

CONCERNING ELROND
If Elrond and his brother got the choice that means that one of their parents was mortal yeah? Who were they? What happened to his wife?

CONCERNING ARWEN
erm this was stated earlier about Elrond telling Arwen that she would live on after Aragorn. He says (and this is not quoted from the book either) that she will go on living alone (and in the film) we see seasons passing and her mourning. Now if she was immortal and an elf, couldn't she die of a broken heart? And if she wasn't, why did Elrond say that Arwen was going to see Aragorn die and have to live alone. Is this just because he knows mortal couples have to part and is it also because although she is mortal she will still live longer because she use to be immortal.
Another thing, if she gives up immortality does this mean she gives up being an elf? I mean can she still have all the skills and benefits of an elf except long life or is she just human?

CONCERNING ARAGORN
If Aragorn could choose how long to live why did he choose to die and leave Arwen when she was still alive, why didn't he choose to die at the same time, surely he could have lasted another year. I know you'll say that he wpuldn't have been able to know but why did he choose to be parted from her. Sorry I haven't got that far in the books, I'm just impatient and like things cleared up.
Another thing, if he lived to be so old because he got to choose who gave him the choice and how did Arwen out live him if she gave up immortality, surely she would have died long before him if she was mortal.

Thanks for helping to clear my confused brain, if any of you know what I'm banging on about, I confuse myself sometimes.
Nienna-of-the-Valar
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Post RE: When an Elf and a mortal marry?
on: June 16, 2003 07:28
aragorns_elf_princess, Do not take this the wrong way, but the answers to all of your questions are in this thread. You just had to read all of the responses, but I will reiterate them for you here because I am nice and like to hear myself talk...errrrr type


CONCERNING ELROND
If Elrond and his brother got the choice that means that one of their parents was mortal yeah? Who were they? What happened to his wife?



You really need to read the Silmarillion to fully understand this. I hope it is not too confusing. If you write it down, it may be easier. Earendil and Elwing are the parents of Elrond and Elros. Earendil and Elwing are both Half-elven. Earendil's parents are Tuor (Man) and Idril (Elf-maiden). Elwing's parents are Dior (Man) and Nimloth (Elf-maiden). Because Earendil and Elwing were allowed to sail to Valinor and speak with the Valar, they could not return to Middle-earth, but they, and their children, were given the choice to be either mortal or immortal. This was a special choice given ONLY to Earendil and his family, it does not apply to any others. Earendil now sails the skies as a star and Elwing dwells in Valinor where she heals the sea-birds. It is a great story.


CONCERNING ARWEN
erm this was stated earlier about Elrond telling Arwen that she would live on after Aragorn. He says (and this is not quoted from the book either) that she will go on living alone (and in the film) we see seasons passing and her mourning. Now if she was immortal and an elf, couldn't she die of a broken heart? And if she wasn't, why did Elrond say that Arwen was going to see Aragorn die and have to live alone. Is this just because he knows mortal couples have to part and is it also because although she is mortal she will still live longer because she use to be immortal.
Another thing, if she gives up immortality does this mean she gives up being an elf? I mean can she still have all the skills and benefits of an elf except long life or is she just human?




Arwen remains the same person in all ways, except she is mortal and will die. After The War of The Ring, she was the Queen of both Elves and Men. But, her fate is to live until "all that she had gained was lost". So her fate is to live until after Aragorn has died, then she can lay down and die herself, which is just what she does. Have you read the story of Aragorn and Arwen in the appendices of LOTR? The whole story is there.


CONCERNING ARAGORN
If Aragorn could choose how long to live why did he choose to die and leave Arwen when she was still alive, why didn't he choose to die at the same time, surely he could have lasted another year. I know you'll say that he wpuldn't have been able to know but why did he choose to be parted from her. Sorry I haven't got that far in the books, I'm just impatient and like things cleared up.
Another thing, if he lived to be so old because he got to choose who gave him the choice and how did Arwen out live him if she gave up immortality, surely she would have died long before him if she was mortal



Because Aragorn is a Numenorean, he can choose to die while he is still of sound mind, and while his son is "full ripe for kingship". The gift of long life was also given to the Numenoreans so Aragorn lived to be 210. As I said previously, Arwen was doomed to live until after Aragorn was dead. So, when Aragorn felt that his time was near, he could lay down and die, and wait to be reunited with Arwen outside the confines of Middle-earth. No one knows what fate awaits Men after they die, but whatever it is, Aragorn and Arwen would still be together. She did not live much longer than he anyway.


If you have any more questions, ask away..
Cherie
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Post RE: When an Elf and a mortal marry?
on: July 04, 2003 10:29
TO Nienna-of-the-Valar:


When Arwen chose to be mortal and live with Aragorn, how could she really give up her immortality? Was she still able to live on without Aragorn in her life? Even though she was to die after all that she had gained was lost, IF, after Aragorn's death, she wasnt heartbroken, would she be able to become immortal again? I know this is a silly question, but its been bothering me ever since I read the sad story of Arwen and Aragorn.

Also, if Aragorn HAD chose Eowyn, would Arwen die from a broken heart?
Nienna-of-the-Valar
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Post RE: When an Elf and a mortal marry?
on: July 09, 2003 09:04
This may be a long post, so be forewarned, but may help to answer some questions. It seems that the choice given to the Half-elven is very confusing, so I hope to help clear it up with input from others. I also have checked this topic numerous times and this is the first time I have seen the post from Cherie, so I apologize for not getting back to her as it was addressed to me specifically.

Cherie said:
When Arwen chose to be mortal and live with Aragorn, how could she really give up her immortality? Was she still able to live on without Aragorn in her life? Even though she was to die after all that she had gained was lost, IF, after Aragorn's death, she wasnt heartbroken, would she be able to become immortal again? I know this is a silly question, but its been bothering me ever since I read the sad story of Arwen and Aragorn.

Also, if Aragorn HAD chose Eowyn, would Arwen die from a broken heart?



Your questions are valid, but you have to remember that it is a story, and we only know what happened based on the choices that were made by the characters in the book. As runaround pointed out, I cannot say for certain what would have happened if someone had changed their mind, but I can speculate based on the facts laid out in the book.

So, now for your questions:


The choice to be mortal or remain immortal was a special choice given by the "gods" ONLY to Elrond, his brother Elros, and Elrond's children. Elros' children had no such choice because Elros chose to be mortal, so his children were all mortal. That's it, no exceptions there. When Arwen gave up her immortality, that was it for her, there was no going back, she could not change her mind later.

Now, based on the written word of Tolkien, I personally believe that Arwen, Elladan, and Elrohir had to make their choice by the time Elrond left. So, the day that Elrond boarded the boat taking him to Aman, they had to decide which life they wanted to live. In my opinion ,if they remained in Middle-earth on that day, they chose to be counted among mortals. All three of the siblings DID remain in Middle-earth after Elrond left, so I believe that they all chose to become mortal by not leaving with Elrond on that day. Once their choice was made, they could not go back.



Now the other part of your question would have us reading about an Arwen who did not love Aragorn so much that she would not want to live without him. This was not the case, so I don't know what to say. But, even if after Aragorn died, Arwen found that she was not overcome with grief, she could not have become immortal again. That choice was already made, and she would have died eventually.

If Aragorn had chosen Eowyn, I'd like to think that he would have let Arwen know before her choice had to be made, and she could have left with her father. That would have been sad

So, I hope this helps. Not as long as it could have been Please ask more questions if you have them.
Nienna-of-the-Valar
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Post RE: When an Elf and a mortal marry?
on: July 16, 2003 09:53
I'm bumping this up just this once, because it is an interesting topic and I hate to see it getting buried. Is there any way to move the whole thread to the books forum where we get more posts?
ElenaTheWarrior
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Post RE: When an Elf and a mortal marry?
on: August 07, 2003 12:03
I was going to say a bunch of things about htis topic, but they've all been said, so there's no point in re-iterating. Nienna (and others) you put things so well, is such a simple straight-forward manner, thanks. Its helped me understand a few things better myself.

However, I did want to say this, and then I have a question;
It's been touched upon, but not said directly. In the film (and I know, it was the *film*, and not to be trusted, but it illustrates my point nicely), Elrond urges Arwen not to marry Aragorn, and says to Aragorn, "let her bear away her love for you to the Undying lands there it will be ever-green" An interesting thought. Perhaps Elrond said it, perhaps he didn;t, but it's a valid point that a) he probably would NOT want to leave his daughter behind and b)he probably urged her to say.
HOWEVER, one of the most bittersweet moments of the book is when Arwen and Elrond go up into the hills to say their farewels-which no-one witnesses-which will "last even beyond the ending of the World" (not a perfect quote, but close.) So, no matter how "green" the memory of their love would have been in her memory, in the undying lands, they would not even be reunited after death, and that's what's so incredibly sad about the parting: they will never, ever see each other again, and Arwen was willing to make that sacrafice for Aragorn, to be with him forever, even after death.

Question:
Was Celebrian raped?
Nienna-of-the-Valar
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Post RE: When an Elf and a mortal marry?
on: August 07, 2003 02:30
Question:
Was Celebrian raped?


I don't know if she was raped, though it would not be beyond belief to have it be so. In some of Tolkien's writings wives were said to be taken "by force". The Orcs are vile creatures after all. It is difficult to say one way or another. She was captured and tortured, that is all we know. I've really never thought about it though, interesting.
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Post RE: When an Elf and a mortal marry?
on: January 25, 2004 10:24
Ok, so let me get this straight.
Elrond and Galadriel go to Valinor and retain their immortality.
If Arwen was going to leave ME she had to leave with her father.

Yup.
Celeborn didn't leave with his wife, but niether did Legolas. Does this mean that Elves (as opposed to Half-Elven) couldleave whenever they wanted and still keep their immortality?

Yup. All Elves can leave Middle-earth to set sail for Valinor if they wish to. Whether an elf is in Middle-earth or Valinor, they are immortal.
Ok this is where it gets confusing. Frodo and Bilbo left with the last of the Ring Bearers (as did Gandalf) does that mean they are all immortal in Valinor like the Elves?

No .... they are still human, they have just been granted leave by the Valar to live out their mortal lives in the Undying Lands, where they can rest and allow their hurts to heal over.
Gimli - It says that Galadriel obtained grace for Gimli to stay in Valinor so is he immortal too?

Nope. Same time as for mortals. A mortal is mortal whether they were in Valinor or Middle-earth.
And if there are all these mortals in Valinor along with that one Mortal Elf-Friend who married an Elf why isn't Aragorn among them?

Now that is a more interesting question. To put it very simply, he wasn't given permission by the Valar. Why, we don't know, but we presume it was simply because his fate was connected only to Middle-earth, and that was where he had to live out his life. I'm sure someone else will come back with a more detailed analysis
Gwilwilethien
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Post RE: When an Elf and a mortal marry?
on: February 28, 2004 10:12
I don't really know if this is relevantnt, but I always thaought Arwen would have 'been mortal' anyway, even if she didn't have the choice Elrond and his children had.
I always heard elves could die at war, being stabbed by a sword or anything like that, and from a broken heart/grief. I've heard both of these, I think it should be 'grief from a broken heart because their love died, like Luthien died after Beren died, but then returned.
If Arwen didn't have the choice of being mortal, she would have died anyway, because she would be so sad about Aragorn's death. I think. So the "you'll die if you marry Aragorn" theory is right, but the "you will linger" is also right, just not forever. The appendices said she went to (the empty) Lothlorien and wandered there for a while, and the died. I hope I make sense.
LadyEowyn_Of_Rohan
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Post RE: When an Elf and a mortal marry?
on: April 18, 2004 03:21
It is never explicitly stated in LOTR what their choice unltimately was, but I think that everyone who believes that the choice had to be made when Elrond left, probably believes that they did choose a mortal life. This choice by the brothers would also help to explain why Elrond finds it so difficult to accept that Arwen has chosen a mortal life; he is losing all of his children. Very sad for him.

I have always believed that Elladan and Elrohir simply delayed their choice when Elrond left, and for a similar reason. If Elrond really was losing all his children to mortality, that is such a big deal that I would have expected Tolkien to say something about his sad fate explicitly somewhere--if not in LOTR, then in some of his other writings. But to the best of my knowledge, he never made any comments on the subject.

Yes, I agree... I think that Elladan and Elrohir choosing a mortal life because they didn't leave at the same time as Elrond was a little far-fetched, especially if Tolkien never said anything explicitly about it.
I prefer the theory that Arwen lingered for a while after Aragorn's death than died of a broken heart than that she chose a mortal life. If she chose to be mortal, I don't think she would have lived for 211 years after marrying Aragorn. Also, Arwen, Elrohir, and Elladan were 25/32 Elf, 3/16 Man, and 1/32 Maia. 3/16 mortal is far too little for them to make the choice that Elrond and Elros made.
Sorry if I'm just hopelessly confused.
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Post RE: When an Elf and a mortal marry?
on: April 18, 2004 10:05
3/16 mortal is far too little for them to make the choice that Elrond and Elros made. Sorry if I'm just hopelessly confused.


Awww .... half-elven-ness is horribly complicated

They did qualify for the choice .... and it's little to do with the actual *amount* of elvish / mortal blood they had.

[Mandos said] "And this is my decree concerning them: to Earendil and to Elwing, and to their sons, shall be given leave each to choose freely to which kindred their fates shall be joined, and under which kindred they shall be judged." (Silmarillion)


Mandos proclaimed that whatever their genetic heritage, all descendants of Earendil and Elwing (and including them) could choose between an Elvish life and a mortal life. And that included Arwen.

Have a look at this specifically about half-elves.
elvishmusician
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Post RE: When an Elf and a mortal marry?
on: May 19, 2004 06:52
If the whole choose to be mortal and therefore your children must be theory is true why then did after elronds parents Earendil and Elwing had to choose, Elros and Elrond still have a choice. They both chose to be amoung the First born (elves) and therefore with this theory carries true their children would have been elvish and not given an out right choice (though like Luthien they could have chosen mortality but this choice would not have been given to them by the Valar they would have had to thought it up themselves). Earendil was already part human as he was the son of the daughter of Tour and Idril (of Gondolin) daughter. However there is no mention of Idril having to turn mortal to marry Tour, who was to my knowledge a man. Therefore it does not make sense to give him a choice (as he is two generation down from the choice) unless of course it extends to two generations from the last time someone had to choose (which i think i read somewhere once). If this is the case it would only make sense that Arwen and Aragorns children had a choice. I hope this makes sense. Please tell me if I've just completely confused myself.
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Post RE: When an Elf and a mortal marry?
on: May 21, 2004 02:46

I prefer the theory that Arwen lingered for a while after Aragorn's death than died of a broken heart than that she chose a mortal life. If she chose to be mortal, I don't think she would have lived for 211 years after marrying Aragorn.


The way I read the story of Aragorn and Arwen in the Appendices, it's fairly clear that Arwen did choose a mortal life. I don't think it's unfeasible that she would have lived so long as a mortal - wouldn't she have been granted an extended life-span, like Elros when he chose mortality? Also it says in the appendix that when Aragon prepared to die Arwen "was not yet weary of her days, and thus she tasted the bitterness of the mortality that she had taken upon her." It almost seems that Arwen, like Aragorn and Numenoreans, can choose the timing of her death to some extent. When Aragorn is dying she knows that in terms of strength and health she could still have a long life before her, and so she does not yet want to die and pleads with Aragorn to stay.

Something that confuses me, though, is the conversation she has with Aragorn on his deathbed, when he says, "the uttermost choice is before you", which is to sail into the West or to share the fate of Men, and she replies, "that choice is long over. There is now no ship that would bear me hence, and I must indeed abide the Doom of Men, whether I will or I nill."

I've always thought that other elves and half-elves who were offered a choice between mortality and immortality made that choice once-for-all, and once the decision was taken, they couldn't reverse it. It isn't only a choice about whether or not they will die in middle-earth - since elves can 'die' in a sense - but about what happens to their spirits after death. I'm sure it says somewhere that once an individual has received the gift / doom of mortality, it can't be taken away from them. But it almost seems to be saying here that Arwen could have reversed her choice to be mortal, if there had still been ships sailing to the undying lands. Is this right?
Celebrianna
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Post RE: When an Elf and a mortal marry?
on: May 21, 2004 03:18
I think the choice was irrevocable and Arwen said as much when she said “Nay, lord, that choice is over.”
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Post RE: When an Elf and a mortal marry?
on: May 21, 2004 03:19
But it almost seems to be saying here that Arwen could have reversed her choice to be mortal, if there had still been ships sailing to the undying lands. Is this right?


Not really .... I think she's just saying that even if she had still been of elvenkind, even then she could no longer sail West.
ariah
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Post RE: When an Elf and a mortal marry?
on: May 21, 2004 03:49
I think the choice was irrevocable and Arwen said as much when she said “Nay, lord, that choice is over.”


Yes, pondering further on this... Perhaps when Arwen said "there are now no ships that would bear me hence" she didn't simply mean 'there are no more ships' (after all there is the debate about when Legolas sailed, etc) but 'even if there were ships, none of them would be willing to take me, because I have given up the right to sail to Valinor'.

Just a theory.

edited because I forgot to add this question -
What happened to the elves who remained in middle earth in the fourth age? Did they become 'mortal'? i.e. if they died, would their spirits go wherever the spirits of men go, or would they wait in the Halls of Mandos with other elves? (Not sure if this belongs to this thread, someone please point me to the right thread if it's already covered somewhere else.)



[Edited on 21/5/2004 by ariah]
arvegil
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Post RE: When an Elf and a mortal marry?
on: May 21, 2004 06:33
edited because I forgot to add this question -
What happened to the elves who remained in middle earth in the fourth age? Did they become 'mortal'? i.e. if they died, would their spirits go wherever the spirits of men go, or would they wait in the Halls of Mandos with other elves? (Not sure if this belongs to this thread, someone please point me to the right thread if it's already covered somewhere else.)


The "life after death" topped thread addresses this a lot. TOlkien stated that Elves who remained would literally "fade" until their bodies would become semi-ethereal; they could be either invisible or visible to us. However, Elvish culture would fail even more than their bodies; they would become the "rustic folk of wood and dell" that was spoken of as their fate.

[Edited on 21/5/2004 by arvegil]
Rulea
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Post RE: When an Elf and a mortal marry?
on: June 14, 2005 02:47
Wow, this really interesting stuff! I have a question though: In the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, while Gorn is dying, he tells Arwen that she could repent and go to Valinor and live out the rest of her life there. How can an elf gain its imortality back and if she did left for Valinor, wouldn't she have died anyway because she would miss Aragorn, but for a brief speel, be reunited with her family.

P.S. Someone mentioned Tuor carried a Silmarill out of gondoln and its wrong because there was no simarill in the place, but Elwing rescued it when her parents were being mudered in Doriath
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Post RE: When an Elf and a mortal marry?
on: June 21, 2005 08:16
Morwinyoniel,

I agree. Though Eldarion and th girls may have inherited cute as a button pointy ears, dark hair, and bewitching eyes, they would not have inherited immortality from from their mother's family because she had chosen mortality. And as you pointed out, members of Aragorn's family had been dying for thousands of years.

Merry_Pippin,

There are many modern cases of one spouse dying shortly after the other...of a broken heart? Who can say? But after postponing their marriage for near 70 years and then living together for 125, it seems to me it would be difficult for Arwen to "build a new life" after Aragorn's passing. Even if Elrohir and Elladan stayed (which is the choice I believe they made) it would be difficult to go back to Rivendell and live with their families. (I'm sure the twins met some nice Dunedain girls and settled down.) With every turn, she would see something to remind her of Aragorn.

Terribly sad but terribly beautiful also.
SindyE Nad dithen carnen an gwend.
atalante_star
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Post RE: When an Elf and a mortal marry?
on: September 19, 2005 02:55
Question- hypothetically, what would happen if a "regular" elf fell in love with a person? Would the elf simply maintain their immortality, possibly dying of a broken heart after their loved one had died? And if so, would there be a reunion after death, or would they be seperated because of the whole man/elf seperation?

Hypothetically, assuming a regular elf and a regular guy / gal fell in love in the first place, I would think that, yes, the elf would retain his / her immortality and the mortal his / her mortality - unless there was any special circumstances or intervention by the Valar (like with Lúthien and Beren). After death? Well, assuming the above, I would think that they would remain parted.
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