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atalante_star
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Post Fëanor [keep - edit]
on: December 21, 2003 10:24
Quite a few threads have dissolved into discussions about Fëanor over the last week, so following a suggestion from Nienna-of-the-Valar, I'm starting a general discussion thread about Fëanor.....

Well, if you haven't worked out my views on :love: Fëanor :love: by now, you probably never will

I started to write a short piece putting forward my point of view for this post, but it grew from short, through medium, to rather long and involved, so I turned it into a Middle-earth article, which you can see here.

But what does everyone else think? Fallen angel, or evil elf?

[Edited on 21/3/2008 by cirdaneth]
Nienna-of-the-Valar
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Post RE: Fëanor [keep - edit]
on: December 21, 2003 11:43
Great article! Definitely worth a read no matter how you feel about Fëanor.

My vote would go for fallen angel as I cannot lay the blame for their actions upon anyone who was influenced by either of the Dark Lords.

Once Fëanor fell under the influence, whether direct, indirect or otherwise, of Morgoth I think he ceased to be *wholly* responsible for any of the decisions that he made.

PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: Fëanor [keep - edit]
on: December 22, 2003 04:33
I could vote for fallen angel if only Feanor had maged to achieve the "Angel" status in my eyes. He had the ability but not the desire . He never did earn the status that was his birthright as the 'First Son' of the Noldor; instead, he chose to listen., albeit reluctantly, to much of the consels of Morgoth, even though he knew them to be caged in lies and deceit.
It may have been dificult to sacrifice a silmaril or some of its light , to restore the light of the trees, but he couldn't get past the idea that the silmarils were HIS and he could not consider the ultimate act of generosity. He just couldn't make a sacrifice for the good of all, even his own people. He was just too selfish and arrogant for his own good.


I consider it his own fault that his father was killed. If he had allowed the use of the Silmarils that was requested , they would not have been there for Morgoth to steal.
My vote is for status as Middle-Earth's first evil elf.
[I intend to add more to this discussion , but I firstly need to do a bit more rereading of my references]



[Edited on 22/12/2003 by PotbellyHairyfoot]
atalante_star
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Post RE: Fëanor [keep - edit]
on: December 22, 2003 06:56
Wow! I was expecting something a lot more vitriolic PbHf

I think something that you said is a key to the matter:

he chose to listen., albeit reluctantly, to much of the consels of Morgoth, even though he knew them to be caged in lies and deceit


I don't think it worked like that. I don't think he ever consciously accepted the counsels of Morgoth. In fact, I think he consciously *rejected* Morgoth - even though he was still drawn into Morgoth's deceits unconsciously.

Direct quotes we have on the matter say that he rejected Morgoth when they actually spoke. I'm not sure that I would classify accepting Morgoth with Morgoth spreading lies among the general population, and then Feanor listening to the rest of the Noldor and thinking on what they said. But that's just my opinon
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: Fëanor [keep - edit]
on: December 23, 2003 04:10
Chapter 9 The Flight of The Noldor
and the words of Melkor returned to him, saying that the silmarils were not safe, if the Valar would possess them.'and is he not Vala as are they', said his thoughts,' and does he not understand their hearts? Yea , a thief shall reveal thieves....

He took Melkor's counsel to heart.
After that he persuaded most his people to reurn with him to Middle-earth despite the advice given by the Valar.
He then caused the first killing of elf by elf in his haste to return, taking the ships of the Teleri rather than build his own when they refused him.
Just to show what kind of person he really was, he burned the ships after he came ashore, rather than send them back for the kinsmen and followers that didn't fit onboard for the passage.
I thought that it was just desserts when Gothmog finally killed him . It was a real shame though that his people were now past the point of no return and had to suffer for centuries becaiuse of him.
I often speculate that the wars of the First Age would not have happened, had Feanor not brought his people back to challenge Melkor in Middle-Earth.

-and people like this guy?
Nienna-of-the-Valar
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Post RE: Fëanor [keep - edit]
on: December 23, 2003 09:20
He took Melkor's counsel to heart

I would imagine that if any of the Valar were to take a great deal of "interest" in a person and then to "suggest" something to said person, it would be rather difficult to go against that "suggestion" or to see that the "suggestion" was an untruth.

Melkor was terribly powerful and his goal was to turn the Eldar against the other Valar. He used Fëanor to achieve this goal. I don't see how you can hold him responsible for the things he did after he fell under Melkor's influence, but maybe I am being too forgiving... I don't think that he made the greatest choices but he was a pawn of the most powerful of the Valar! I cannot hold him completely at fault for his actions and I like him for what he could have been had Melkor left him alone...
Tasarwen
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Post RE: Fëanor [keep - edit]
on: December 23, 2003 02:24
the wars of the First Age would not have happened, had Feanor not brought his people back to challenge Melkor in Middle-Earth.


I might add here that in The War of the Jewels, it was stated that if Fëanor had not brought the Noldor back to ME, the Sindar would have been "toast". The Sindar were slowly being exterminated by Morgoth, or as Finrod would say the Morgoth.

Sometimes the Powers that be will allow things to happen that appear "bad" for the good of others. These things are so hard to understand however, they do happen.
atalante_star
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Post RE: Fëanor [keep - edit]
on: December 23, 2003 07:44
"and the words of Melkor returned to him, saying that the silmarils were not safe, if the Valar would possess them.'and is he not Vala as are they', said his thoughts,' and does he not understand their hearts? Yea , a thief shall reveal thieves...."
He took Melkor's counsel to heart.


Hmmmmm. The problem with Melkor at that time was that he was still wearing a fair form, with a fair face and voice. Over many years he had been very subtlety manipulating the Noldor (not just Fëanor), spreading lies about the Valar. I don't think Fëanor even intentionally took Melkor's words over the other Valars, but Melkor was the one who was moving among the Elves at that time, and the other Valar seem to have been more remote. So of course Melkor's words would come to mind when the Valar asked for the Silmarils. In fact, his words "a thief shall reveal thieves" may show that he didn't consciously believe Melkor - but unfortunately the lies spread by Melkor were too well established by that way, and the Valar did little to change the situation.

After that he persuaded most his people to reurn with him to Middle-earth despite the advice given by the Valar.


This follows on from the previous. If you believe (albeit wrongly) that the Valar were not acting in the best interests of the elves, why would you want to follow their advice?

He then caused the first killing of elf by elf in his haste to return, taking the ships of the Teleri rather than build his own when they refused him.


OK - this next bit is directly copied from my ME article. Can't think of any better word at the moment

Clearly, participating in, and commending, the Kinslaying was Fëanor's worst crime. There is little excuse that can be given for him, and indeed, there should be little excuse for what he did. Except maybe for the one defence that he did have. The same defence that he had from the second that Melkor first saw the Silmarils. How can Fëanor be clearly judged when every aspect of his life, and even his thoughts, were being controlled by Melkor? Controlled in a very insidious way, for sure, but controlled none the less. So while Fëanor could easily be despised for his actions, I'm not so sure. Yes, he did terrible things. Yes, he killed many of his kin – one of the most heinous crimes for an Elf. Yes, he led his family into Exile and into the wrath of the Valar. But who was Fëanor at that point? Was he the burning bright Fëanor, Lord of the Noldor, who was attractive, fascinating and passionate? Or was he the Fëanor that was held in thraldom and torment by Morgoth, and worst of all, was probably unaware that he was fulfilling the Dark Lord's desires? The answer is obvious. But what does this distinction actually mean? I guess it depends on your personal view on punishment. Should someone be punished who commits a crime while under the influence of another, more evil, person? Yes, I think they should, and yes, Fëanor deserved punishment for his actions. But I don't think he should have been branded evil, vilified by the Elves and rejected by the Valar for something that was partially their fault to start with.

Just to show what kind of person he really was, he burned the ships after he came ashore, rather than send them back for the kinsmen and followers that didn't fit onboard for the passage.


I always put this down to a fit of pique I think he regretted it afterwards

I thought that it was just desserts when Gothmog finally killed him.


I wouldn't wish Death by Balrog on my worst enemy

It was a real shame though that his people were now past the point of no return and had to suffer for centuries becaiuse of him. I often speculate that the wars of the First Age would not have happened, had Feanor not brought his people back to challenge Melkor in Middle-Earth.


As Melkor was spreading lies among the entire Noldor, I can easily see another taking up Fëanor's position if Fëanor hadn't existed. Maybe not the same extent, but none were as brilliant and fiery as Fëanor.

Like Tasarwen said, the Valar have their reasons for everything. Do you think they couldn't have stop Fëanor if they had really wanted to? Without the Noldor going back to Middle-earth they would have been no Galadriel in Lothlorien, and therefore no Celebrian, and no Arwen. Maybe even just that was enough good, bringing forth the world of men, to outweigh the bad of the initial return of the Noldor.

-and people like this guy?
Scothia
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Post RE: Fëanor [keep - edit]
on: December 23, 2003 09:39
I tend to agree with PBHF on this one. The Children of Iluvatar (sorry, my accent marks aren't working), both the Firstborn as well as the Hildor, were created with free will. (Not certain about the Dwarfs, we'll have to ask Aule when we see him.) Feanor made a conscious choice in his obsession with the Silmarils: he was going to have them, regardless the cost to himself or anyone else, and fealty be hanged. Morgoth was able to zero in on this flaw in Feanor's character and exploit it, because Feanor had free will. He was not a helpless puppet of Morgoth.

I don't think you are ascribing to the Silmarils the same kind of external, inherently negative power possessed by the One Ring.

Incredible evil to so many generations occurred as a result of Feanor's supreme selfishness, arrogance, and hardness of heart, and he never got his desire anyway. He is no hero in my book!



[Edited on 12/25/03 by Scothia]
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Post RE: Fëanor [keep - edit]
on: December 25, 2003 09:31
Fëanor is probably the most interesting character Tolkien ever created. In my book, he is a very classical tragic hero: Someone with all the prerequisites for greatness, but also some fatal flaw that he cannot overcome, and that leads him to his downfall. In Fëanor's case, it is his pride and hotheadedness, and the inability to let go of the work of his hands. I also see him as basically very sensitive person, even oversensitive. When his father is murdered, and the most important work of his life stolen, he certainly overreacts, and falls into madness, blind hatred, and fanaticism, which drive him to unforgivable deeds, and ultimately to his fall.

And, Melkor is a very cunning propagandist. Through the ages, people have been agitated against some others by spreading lies and rumours, often with devastating consequences. "When a lie is repeated oft enough, it turns into truth..." Fëanor's pride, his love for his father, his bitterness about his mother's fate, and his disapproval of his father's new marriage, make him in fact very vulnerable, and a fertile ground for Melkor's propaganda.

But, as Eru had said about the deeds of Melkor, in the end, they are just a part of the whole, and much beauty will eventually come of them. Of the tragedy to which Fëanor's actions lead his people, arise lots of courage, heroism, friendship and sacrifice. Maybe everything was actually included in the Music...

Great article, BTW.
Scothia
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Post RE: Fëanor [keep - edit]
on: December 25, 2003 01:15
I have pondered this deeply and still cannot for the life of me think of any excuse for Feanor's treachery in burning the ships. He and his fellow rebels were given so many opportunities to repent, to do the right thing, to turn from the corruption of arrogance. Feanor spurned contrition every time, choosing instead to harden his heart. I'll have to give him this: he was certainly singleminded. Yet, his singlemindedness was not only misguided, it was blind to every good thing. He chose the Silmarils over the immortal lives of other Firstborn, making the gems into idols and mocking the creation of Iluvatar. This was his greatest error.

I don't say that Feanor was evil in the same way as was Melkor/Morgoth. Yet even Melkor was created as a lovely being--the highest of the high--and was corrupted through his own pride into the despicable, ugly thing he became. The fire in Feanor's soul was not put there to lead him in the ways of self-absorption and betrayal. It was given him to become a great leader among Elves. One could say he fulfilled that destiny. Yet how differently might the tragic story have been written, for generations to come after him, had Feanor had but found within his heart not only the drive to accomplish that which he above all things desired, but a trace of humility as well.

[Edited on 12/25/03 by Scothia]
Falagar
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Post RE: Fëanor [keep - edit]
on: December 25, 2003 01:39
I have pondered this deeply and still cannot for the life of me think of any excuse for Feanor's treachery in burning the ships. He and his fellow rebels were given so many opportunities to repent, to do the right thing, to turn from the corruption of arrogance. Feanor spurned contrition every time, choosing instead to harden his heart. I'll have to give him this: he was certainly singleminded. Yet, his singlemindedness was not only misguided, it was blind to every good thing. He chose the Silmarils over the immortal lives of other Firstborn, making the gems into idols and mocking the creation of Iluvatar. This was his greatest error.

I don't believe that it was the Silmarilli alone that drove him. The murder of his father (whom he was said to love more than anyone else, and he loved him more than anyone else have ever loved their father) was still burning brightly on his mind. And he did not force his followers to go with him. Certainly he was good at convincing people, but that alone would not be enough to make the Noldor follow him (as is seen by Finarfin turning back). They all had free will, and still followed him despite the warnings of the Valar.

Melkor had no other influence than his own mind, and thus is ultimately responsible for his own sins. Fëanor had indeed free will, but he was fooled by Morgoth's cunning lies. His pride led to his downfall, but it was not the sole or the biggest reason.

Oh, and I believe he was punished enough for the burning of the ships in the later mythologies...

[Edited on 25/12/2003 by Falagar]
atalante_star
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Post RE: Fëanor [keep - edit]
on: December 25, 2003 10:57
The one thing I'm seeing a lot about in this thread (and what a good thread it is!) is free-will. And I think that's the key to the question of whether a person is truly evil or not.

Fëanor, as has been said, could not be compared in any way to Morgoth, or Sauron. They *originated* evil. They were once great Ainur, and consciously decided to go the route of evil - evil here being defined as actions against the will of Iluvatar (who may be presumed to have created a good world). Fëanor on the other hand, was devastated by his father's death, and coupling that with the fact he was certainly a hot-headed, arrogant little elf, you get potential for disaster.

As Morwinyoniel said:
And, Melkor is a very cunning propagandist. Through the ages, people have been agitated against some others by spreading lies and rumours, often with devastating consequences. "When a lie is repeated oft enough, it turns into truth..." Fëanor's pride, his love for his father, his bitterness about his mother's fate, and his disapproval of his father's new marriage, make him in fact very vulnerable, and a fertile ground for Melkor's propaganda.


So, did Fëanor willingly embrace evil? No. I don't think so. I believe he was sucked unconsciously into Morgoth's web of lies, and personally, I can't blame anyone for their actions once they are under the grip of that sort of power.
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Post RE: Fëanor [keep - edit]
on: December 26, 2003 09:51
Yeah, in fact Fëanor is another Tolkien True or realistic-character.
He was born superior, intelligent, with a brave heart, and maybe all this were his perdition, being superior makes people to be misunderstood and brave heart makes people to lose their heads. But again, we have the evil influence, represented in Melkor, an evil influence with words... to make things even worst. Fëanor, brave heart, confusion were his perdition.
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: Fëanor [keep - edit]
on: December 27, 2003 03:30
I thought iId continue my case by going beyond The Silmarillion...
from; The Shibboleth of Fëanor in The Peoples of Middle-Earth...

Fëanor was already enroute to the selfish egocentric individual he became long before he was even influenced by Morgoth.
during the time of his sorrow Finwë had little comfort from Fëanor. for a while he also had kept vigil by his mother by his mother's body, but soon he became wholly absorbed again in his own works and devices. When the matter of Finwë arose he was disturbed, and filled with anger; though it is not recorded that he attended the Debate or paid heed to the reasons given for the judgment, or to its terms except in one poin: that Miriel was condemned to remain for ever discarnate, so that he could never again visit her or speak with her, unless he himself should die.


Also Fëanor thought that the change in quenya to using thes instead of the [symbol is a p with the line extending above the circle] was part of a plot to reject him as leader of the Noldor.
In the same chapter it is stated that Galadriel had the gift of insight into the minds of others and that she saw in Fëanor's mind a darkness that she hated and feared.

He may have ben influenced by Morgoth but he was already on his chosen path as a nasty individual before that occurred.
Nienna-of-the-Valar
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Post RE: Fëanor [keep - edit]
on: December 27, 2003 07:51
Fëanor was already enroute to the selfish egocentric individual he became long before he was even influenced by Morgoth

Being selfish and egocentric does not make one "evil"...it may make someone not such a nice person to know, but it does not make them evil. After Morgoth began to influence Fëanor he began to do things that could be considered "evil". I don't think that most people would deny that Fëanor was arrogant and self-centered...but evil? Nahhhhh

I have not read "The Shibboleth", because for a long time I have avoided the HoMe series, so I can't comment on that.
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: Fëanor [keep - edit]
on: December 27, 2003 08:34
True - being selfish and egocentric was only part of his problem and didn't make him evil; but his lack of care for others allowed him to cause the kinslaying and burning of the ships- which definitely were evil and inexcuseable acts.

Falagar
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Post RE: Fëanor [keep - edit]
on: December 28, 2003 02:17
I think, in a way, that Fëanor is all we (well, at least I ) want to be: Strong-willed, intelligent, good at creating ("crafty"?), strong and overall great in everything (rebellious?); and at the same time all that we don't want to be: arrogant, rash (or hasty, as Treebeard would have put it), selfish and possesive.

But hey, I'd chose a character like Fëanor any day over one like noble, wise and oh so boring Finarfin.
Scothia
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Post RE: Fëanor [keep - edit]
on: December 28, 2003 02:48
I do not find nobility and wisdom at all boring, so please take Feanor and leave me Finarfin.

If someone (Finwe?) had not given in but stopped his madness earlier in his life, there would not have been the horrors of the Kinslaying and the burning of the ships. But what is it about gifted people, that we somehow want to let them have more leeway than "good" people? We allow them to get away with stuff we'd never endure from anyone "ordinary" simply because they're talented, charismatic, whatever (or because they make cool jewels.) Then they turn into despots, murdering hundreds or thousands or millions, and we stand aside looking on and acting all shocked.
Nienna-of-the-Valar
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Post RE: Fëanor [keep - edit]
on: December 28, 2003 09:45
As for the Kinslaying, this is how I see what happened there. Fëanor was not the only one who killed Telerin (sp?) people right? The other Noldor were convinced by the stern words of Fëanor to participate in order to escape from Aman where they were led to believe that they were being "held".

Fëanor was also convinced that the Valar were holding him back and that they would try to usurp from him his creations if given the chance. Morgoth used his powers of pursuasion to corrupt the heart of Fëanor and then Fëanor used his power to convince the other Noldor to follow him. Who is then at fault? I think the original corruptor is at fault and nearly everything that happened after he began to influence any person was not really the fault of that person.
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Post RE: Fëanor [keep - edit]
on: December 29, 2003 06:01
Feanor is a very very very complex character. It is hard to say whether he is good or evil. How do we define the point that decides whether a person (or an elf or a dwarf, or whatever) is good or evil? What was the point that Melkor reached that made him 'evil'?

After all, it can be argued that Feanor was not acting from his own free will (though he believed himself to be) his mind was poisoned (as were all the minds of the Noldor) by the lies of Melkor. Therefore, can he be blamed for his actions? Not to mention he was half crazy with grief of the death of his father and the loss of the Silmarils. The above being in a person who is incredibly rash, strong, fiery, cunning and passionate, well...it makes for a dangerous recipe.

I can even in a way understand why he burned the ships and took part in the kinslaying. I mean, if you try to see it from his perspective:
You are leading a whole host of your people who you have just given an uplifting speech to, you have defied the gods, you are allowed to go where you will, you have managed to persuade your kin to make war on the ultimate evil...then some elves get in your way because they wont lend you their ships. What would you do?

Well, ok, a rational person probably wouldn't have got themselves into this situation in the first place, but what CAN Feanor do? He is too proud to repent, too angry to turn back, not to mention what punishment may await him if he did. For someone who compares all the Valar to Morgoth, would he believe in their pardoning him? He has just roused his people to anger and promised them realms to rule over in Middle Earth, so he can't just turn around and say: "Sorry guys, these elves wont lend us ships, so we'll just have to turn back. OK?" No. So when persuasion doesn't work, he has to resort to force, even though he probably KNOWS it is wrong. (Although in his mind, it is probably for a just cause.)

So whether he is good or evil can be debated. Melkor didn't MAKE Feanor take part in the kin slaying, Feanor made that decision himself, as did all the other Noldor. Does that make them evil as well? Or can anyone that is under an influence of evil be 'evil' themselves? That is the main question.
Falagar
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Post RE: Fëanor [keep - edit]
on: December 29, 2003 06:51
I do not find nobility and wisdom at all boring, so please take Feanor and leave me Finarfin.

If someone (Finwe?) had not given in but stopped his madness earlier in his life, there would not have been the horrors of the Kinslaying and the burning of the ships. But what is it about gifted people, that we somehow want to let them have more leeway than "good" people? We allow them to get away with stuff we'd never endure from anyone "ordinary" simply because they're talented, charismatic, whatever (or because they make cool jewels.) Then they turn into despots, murdering hundreds or thousands or millions, and we stand aside looking on and acting all shocked.

Finarfin hardly did anything throgh the whole book. He was wise and noble, but do we get to know more about him? Did he have any interesting problems, doubts, thoughts ,that makes him interesting? Not that we get to know about. He wasn't to me a very interesting character, simply because there was very little to/of him. He was a good guy, but did nothing special. Fëanor did a lot of bad things and had a lot of personal problems, but that is what makes him interesting.

Fëanor wasn't a despot. He did not have absolute power, and he did not oppress his people (which are what defines a despot). What do you think the Valar should have done with him?

[Edited on 29/12/2003 by Falagar]
Scothia
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Post RE: Fëanor [keep - edit]
on: December 29, 2003 11:28
I am not a relativist, therefore unwilling to excuse Feanor's behavior by all the what-about-this-and-that angles. I believe that each being is responsible for his or her own actions. Melkor could not have affected Feanor's reasoning if his desires had not already been corrupted through pride. Melkor simply exploited the Elf and used him for his own ends.

Without personal responsibility, society degenerates into a chaos in which the only important thing is what a person feels or wants at any given time. Virtues such as fealty, honor, integrity, sacrifice become meaningless.

To Feanor was given great giftings, therefore he also had great responsibility. He ignored the good he could have done and instead wasted his gifts and leadership abilities in leading his people the wrong way, to their deep shame and grief.
Nienna-of-the-Valar
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Post RE: Fëanor [keep - edit]
on: December 29, 2003 09:41
Without personal responsibility, society degenerates into a chaos in which the only important thing is what a person feels or wants at any given time. Virtues such as fealty, honor, integrity, sacrifice become meaningless.

I agree with what you are saying Scothia, but we are talking about a world where there are "gods" and "angels" amongst the people...and these beings have powers allowing them to coerce the people if they so choose. Morgoth is a Vala still and he is terribly powerful so if he wants to manipulate Fëanor he could...and he did...and he could make Fëanor think that he was doing his own will. This could not happen today because there are no such beings with such powers. So even though today we would expect people to take responsibility for his/her own actions, there were other powers at work in Middle-earth.
Tinúmelë
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Post RE: Fëanor [keep - edit]
on: January 02, 2004 03:06
I was just wondering...

Let's say Feanor HAD managed to take the silmarils back from Morgoth, would he have been able to touch them? After the slaying of the Teleri and the burning of the ships at Losgar would his right to claim the Silmarils have become void? Would his hands be burnt if he touched them?

This is probably just a matter of personal opinion but what do you think?
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: Fëanor [keep - edit]
on: January 02, 2004 09:34
I think that, after all the acts of violence he made himself guilty of, they would have burned his hands as well. But, somehow, I don't think that would have stopped him from keeping them.
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Post RE: Fëanor [keep - edit]
on: January 02, 2004 10:08
I'm not sure that we can judge a high elf as we would judge a man. It's probably more complex.
And anyway if all characters would have been good, there would be no story and Tolkien would have written a very dull book!

Of all three brothers I prefer Fingolfin.
It's true there's not much about Finarfin in the Silmarillion, but some of his children have very important roles, Finrod is one of my favourites (it's one reason why I chose the Ring of Barahir as my avatar) and of course there is Galadriel. She had a bit of a "wild" time when she was younger!
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Post RE: Fëanor [keep - edit]
on: June 12, 2004 07:41
[bumped as we haven't talked about him for far too long, and I'm sure a number of newer people would like to put forward their views ]
Nyérëven
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Post RE: Fëanor [keep - edit]
on: June 13, 2004 03:58
Thanks for the bump Atalante! I would never have noticed it otherwise.

Here are my thoughts on this topic. It's most likely already been said by one of the smart people, but I still want to talk about him *grabs the nearest microphone, jumps on the stage, and says whatever comes into her head*


In all honesty, I cannot call Feanor a fallen angel, yet I don't believe he is an evil elf either. I think he was an extrodinary elf, with a potential for great things, who was forced to go up against someone far too powerful for him to outstand.

Quotes from the Silmarillion, Chapter 7



quote:
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Melkor would often walk among them (the Noldor), and amid his fair words others were woven, so subtly that many who heard them believed in recollection that they arose from their own thought.
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and


quote:
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Fiercest burned the new flame of desire for freedom and wider realms in the eager heart of Feanor; and Melkor laughed in his secrecy, for to that mark his lies had been addressed, hating Feanor above all, and lusting for the Silmarils.
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Morgoth is as afore mentioned, the mightiest of the Valar, and the above quotes prove that he wants first of all to lead Feanor astray and gain the Silmarils. All the lies that he spread were to accomplish this goal. Apparently he was skilled in his choice of words, for he was able to lead many of the Noldor astray without their even knowing it. As lies tend to do, they spread and came to Feanor's ears where he accepted it as truth. Yet---and a big YET--One cannot hold that this is him willingly accepting the teachings of Morgoth. As the Silmarillion states, the Noldor believed that these new ideas came from themselves, not directly from Morgoth. Therefore when Feanor heard these ideas and lies, he would take it as advice, or counsel from a friend, not something as coming from Morgoth.

The Rebellion I again find it hard to fault him for. True, looking back after "seeing" all the tragedy that it brought, one can say it was not wise, but try to put yourself back into that position, not knowing anything of later events. Here you are, the Evil One has killed the light and peace of your once fair realm, slain your dearly beloved father, and stolen your most precious possessions. Now he is leaving, scot-free, to return to his fortress in another land. To make matters worse, the Beings who are supposed to protect your people and the land, were unable to stop the Evil One, and are even now, doing nothing but mourning for the loss of the light. Would you really want to allow him to get away unscathed for all his evil deeds? Here I think Feanor's grief and pride, with the addition of the influence of Morgoth's lies, blinded him to all reason, and that is what drove him to bring the people to Middle Earth. How can you blame him in this situation? If you were in his place what would you do? Would you sit back and wait while nothing happened? Or would you try to do something, anything, to redeem and avenge your losses?

Now the Kin-Slaying. This is definately Feanor's worst action as others have said, yet even here I cannot completely diss him. Here, he has successfully succeeded in rousing the Noldor to follow him and to help him to acheive his quest, when they come upon elves whom they had once aided- the Teleri. When they absolutely refuse to aid him an any way, can you not see why he would be angered? According to the Silmarillion, his people had once laboured to help the Teleri in a time of need, and now they refused to help the Noldor in their time of need. Rationally thinking, yes, you can say that the situations are different, but Feanor was already overcome with grief, anger, and pride. With all these emotions tumbling through his head, and Morgoth's influence upon him, do you really think he can stop to analyze everything clearly? Are we today, thinking rationally when we are extremely emotional? Just my take on this event.

So really, he's human! He has his great qualities such as his creativity, passion, charisma, strength, etc. However Feanor also had some faults that Morgoth used against him in a cruel way, which led him on to the Kin-slaying and other wrong doing. If Morgoth had not had such an influence upon him- think of the amazing things he could have done!

*jumps off the stage and hands the microphone off to someone else*

[Edited on 14/6/2004 by Nyérëven]
atalante_star
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Post RE: Fëanor [keep - edit]
on: June 13, 2004 11:33
I knew I liked you, Nyérëven!!!! Your thoughts on Feanor are pretty much identical to mine

As lies tend to do, they spread and came to Feanor's ears where he accepted it as truth. Yet---and a big YET--One cannot hold that this is him willingly accepting the teachings of Morgoth.

This is soooo true ..... and stated in the Silmarillion (quotes below). There is no evidence anywhere that Feanor *wanted* to listen to Morgoth, or even considered that he was being manipulated by Morgoth.
"none of the Eldalië ever hated Melkor more than Feanor son of Finwë, who first named him Morgoth; and snared though he was in the webs of Melkor's malice against the Valar he held no converse with him and took no counsel from him." (Of Feanor and the Unchaining of Melkor)

Feanor looked upon Melkor with eyes that burned through his fair semblance and pierced the cloaks of his mind, perceiving there his fierce lust for the Silmarils. Then hate overcame Feanor's fear, and he cursed Melkor and bade him be gone, saying: "Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!" (Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor
Strider_is_the_cats_MEOW
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Post RE: Fëanor [keep - edit]
on: July 11, 2005 02:48
I think that when I read the Silmarillion I reacted to Feanor the way many of the Noldor would have. A fallen angel, certainly. An elf who was so powerful that he demanded that you listen to what he said, even if you weren’t aware of the power he had over you. I think he had the ability to sway someone’s courses of decision, even if he himself was unshakable. I think many were intrigued by him, as well as terrified by his presence.
As for his corruption by Melkor, I definitely don’t think that anything Feanor did was intentionally affected by his evil. That doesn’t mean that he was not tainted, though. The Silmarils certainly ‘held his heart in thrall.’
But his cunning overreach his aim; his words touched too deep, and awoke a fire more fierce than he designed; and Feanor looked upon Melkor with eyes that burned through his fair semblance and pierced the cloaks of his mind, perceiving there his fierce lust for the Silmarils. Then hate overcame Feanor’s fear, and he cursed Melkor and bade him be gone, saying: “Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!” And he shut the doors of his house in the face of the mightiest of all the dwellers in Ea.

I think Feanor was so utterly paranoid about losing his jewels that he came close many times to insanity, and when he did lose them, it was the last straw for an already fragile mind. He did, after all, bear the brunt of the first sadness in Aman. That being the death of his mother Miriel. He was an only child before his father remarried, and probably received a large amount of doting, so when suddenly his father turned towards another and seemed to dishonor Miriel’s memory, the young Noldo did not take it too well.
To me, he has to be the most complex character Tolkien ever created, and his part in the Silmarillion could be interpreted many ways. Though I don’t think that calling him evil, rash, and arrogant (though he was those things) even brushes the surface.
atalante_star
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Post RE: Fëanor [keep - edit]
on: December 30, 2007 11:25
ED: Moved from "Greatest Elf" thread, now deleted.
I figured Atalante Star would have mentioned Feanor by now. What do you think Atalante? Fingolfin greatest king? Fingolfin greatest elven character? LOL. I know you favor Feanor!!!!!
LOL! I didn't notice your post till now Maiaman .... I can see I'm eventually going to have to do a Feanor / Fingolfin comparison Though I'm not really sure they are very comparable. ED: ... and so she did and we know who came out top!

Maiaman responded: You clearly place some of the blame on Fingolfin, but Fingolfin was merely trying to protect the Noldor from strife. This is proven by his willingness, at least twice more, to be reconciled to Feanor and his sons. It seems to me that Tolkien deliberately wrote into Fingolfin the characteristics of a king. A great king for that matter. I think Tolkien valued certain qualities in nobility, all of which can be found in Fingolfin, and duplicated in characters like Theoden, Elrond, Aragorn, Gil-gilad, and even in Cirdan. I agree that Feanor is unique. I agree that he is one of the better characters ever written, but I favor Fingolfin. I favor him because he is what a good leader aspires to be. Confident, caring, careful, and brave. He has just enough passion to drive him to be better, and just enough wisdom to keep that passion in check. He was wise enough to bide his time and keep his people safe, and daring enough to sacrifice himself in an effort to destroy evil. Even in riding to his death, he appeared kingly, even god-like. He is the Noble Noldor. The example for so many others to later follow.

Atalante: I was being too nasty to Fingolfin - I know that. He's so blooming heroic and noble and long-suffering and patient that I was determined to be picky
It seems to me that Tolkien deliberately wrote into Fingolfin the characteristics of a king.
Yes ... I utterly agree. He is the archetype of the "heroic king" of later ages. But he's almost too perfect. He lacks the character flaws that interest me in people. He is an amazing character ... but for me ... he lacks the spark of genius / insanity / fire and flame of Fëanor.

Maiaman: Feanor definitely had a fire. He burnt himself so many times he finally dried out and went up in flames himself. I think Feanor makes us feel good about ourselves. "At least I don't screw up as bad as Feanor." When I read about Feanor I feel less greedy and selfish. I think maybe I'm not so bad. LOL. The truth is I said it before, I am more like Feanor than I am Fingolfin. Which is probably why I admire Fingolfin. He is many of the things we aspire to be. Ok at least that I aspire to be. I think Tolkien knew that people like us would argue about things like this. That's why he made Feanor and Fingolfin so different. I'm sure there is more, but I'm done rambling for now.

Atalante: Yes ... I think you're right about Tolkien making the two utterly different. I'd love to know what he actually thought of Fëanor - whether he created him as a Bad Example, or whether he was meant to inspire us.

The one thing you've been missing out in all this is Finarfin. If Feanor and Fingolfin are utterly different, then Finarfin is utterly different to both of them. Finarfin was an extremely "good" character, pure of heart and willing to admit he was wrong and return (to the possible wrath of the Valar) rather than drag his people across to Middle-earth. I wonder if Tolkien set him up to be the really "Good" guy, Fingolfin to be the "Good King" (which of course can be significantly different from being a good person internally) and then Feanor ....

I'm bringing Finarfin into this cos otherwise we're going to go back and forth, back and forth about Feanor and Fingolfin

Maiaman: You are absolutely right about Finarfin. He should come into play in a discussion like this. He represents the "do the right thing at all costs" character. I think you brought it up though in your essay. Was Finarfin wise in going back, or cowardly? I always tended towards cowardly and thought of Finarfin as the weak link in the "sons of Finwe create one perfect hero" theory. Well anyway. I don't have time to go into a Finarfin ramble. I am having fun with this topic though.

[Edited on 31/12/2007 by cirdaneth]
Drauglin
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Post RE: Fëanor [keep - edit]
on: March 18, 2008 12:42
ED: Moved here from another thread:

What I find to be interesting about Feanor is that he is corrupted by Melko's lies even though he did not trust him at all. Also, Feanor was born in the Blessed Realm and never saw ME until he returned in rebellion. That says to me that Tolkien believed that even in a 'heaven' type situation, nothing could be completely perfect forever.
The fact that he rebelled and all seems like a 'sheltered child' story to me. He was born into bliss, and until Melko was released from Mandos that's all he knew. In that school of thinking, it makes a lot of sense that he was corrputed in spite of his mistrust of Melko.

[Edited on 18/3/2008 by cirdaneth]
Fattybolger
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Post RE: Fëanor [keep - edit]
on: March 18, 2008 12:43
ED: Moved here from another thread.

I think he's a classic example of flawed greatness: he's brilliant, fascinating, brave, determined, above all creative, but also vain, self-willed, obstinate and selfish.

He may not be the hero of Sil. if 'hero' means 'good guy', but he's surely the most important person in it. The whole history of Elves and Men is governed by what he does. Thousands of years later, Frodo and Sam are still part of 'the same story'. Gandalf in TT speaks of him effectively as a demi-god. He's a artist and a creator and deserves homage for what he achieves.

It seems to be quite common, though, for great creative artists to be self-absorbed, vain and intolerant, like Feanor. You may admire them, but it can be hard to like them.

Feanor's vices surely outweigh his virtues. In particular, he's without the redeeming virtues of generosity and renunciation. He is selfish about his own creations, whether they're his own sons or the Silmarils; he thinks he owns them and can deny them to everybody else, even themselves (in the sons' case, dictate an oath to them which works entirely to their ruin). He also takes more credit than is his due: he made the Silmarils, but not the light within them. The Valar, on the other hand, offer their creative gifts generously to the world at large and don't forget that it's Iluvatar who ultimately provided the materials on which they work.

I think the renunciation theme is very important in JRRT's work. Bilbo renounces the Arkenstone and his share of Smaug's treasure; Frodo, Gandalf, Aragorn, Galadriel and Faramir renounce the Ring; Arwen renounces her immortality; and so on. Feanor doesn't agree that some people have to give things up so that others may keep them: he won't give up the Silmarils so that everyone can go on benefiting from the light of the Trees.

Nevertheless he is plainly meant to be an awesome and splendid figure. And of course, if all the Noldor, not to mention Melkor, had behaved like good little boys, there'd have been nothing interesting to read about. Their rebellions are creative in the literary sense. The Sil. seems to think this an important item in Feanor's credit balance, though maybe not in Melkor's.

[Edited on 18/3/2008 by cirdaneth]
Grifo
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Post RE: Fëanor [keep - edit]
on: February 08, 2012 06:16
He's claimed to be the greatest elf who ever lived when he was introduced in the Silmarilion. By nature, elves are good people, with a righteous heart, but sometimes fail to stay on the right track by dark forces, stronger than their own. That's what happened with Fëanor too. His greatness attracted greater powers than he was (Melkor and servants) and that drove him away from his righteous path. He wasn't to blame for the wrongs he had done, Melkor was responsible for them.

That said, like anyone else, Elves have their flaws too. Most common flaw seen amongst elves is vanity. A feeling of superiority above humans and dwarves and lesser elves. Because Feanor was as great as he was, his vanity was also greater than with 'normal' Elves. That's what led to his downfall and to Melkor's downfall too. While Melkor made great use of that flaw, he underestimated Fëanor's (will)power. Fëanor and his kin (especially his sons) payed a heavy toll for their deeds (being cursed by Melkor AND outcasted by the Valor). By that his dues were payed in extremis.

I do not consider him a hero, even though he was the one who stood up against the greatest and strongest evil character in the history of middle earth: Melkor. But I do not consider him an anti-hero or villain either. He's just what he was: the greatest Elf who ever lived! One who was caught off guard by an evil god that changed his fate forever.

I therefore called my new DnD character after him: Fëanir.
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