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Rivka
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Post Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: September 25, 2002 03:11
This is a repost of a post I made a _long_ time ago on another forum, but I thought it make make for some interesting discussion. Keep it clean, folks!

So, last night while trying to fall asleep, I started wondering about how sex in general might be viewed in Middle-Earth. In our own (Western) culture, sex is so heavily influenced by Judeo-Christian morals, and the concept that pre-marital sex, homosexuality, etc are "sinful". Less so now then 200 or even 50 years ago, but it's still there (not to suggest that I think so, just that's what the prevailing way of thinking was for a long time, and still is for some people).

Tolkien pretty much doesn't mention sex at all in the books (or if he did, I missed it, LOL). He was Catholic, too, and I can't help wondering how much that (and the time period --the 1930's through the 50's-- in which he was writing these books) might have influenced not only his decision to not write about sex at all, but how he might have viewed it within the world that he created.

Since he barely mentioned sex, it's left to us to create that part of the world, in our minds or through our own stories. I find myself...limited, though, by my own cultural influences. How would a society that is not influenced by the Old Testament or original sin or all that perceive sex? For example, what would the Elves think of premarital sex? What would the Hobbits, or the groups of men think? What would they think of homosexuality? The problem, of course, is that while the world of M-E is not influenced by our religion, Tolkien himself was, so that makes for a rather strange conundrum...

Any thoughts? Is there anything you can think of in the books to base your ideas on? I'm most interested in ideas based on actual lines or text from Tolkien's work, as few and limited as those might be...

[Edited on 5/9/2003 by PotbellyHairyfoot]
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Scothia
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Post RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: September 25, 2002 03:26
I guess you haven't read Michael Martinez' article posted in Last Homely House: "Planning the Middle-earth Wedding". He touches on this topic:
It would seem there was therefore no such thing as pre-marital sex among Tolkien's elves. Once they joined their bodies, they were married.
ED: Rivka responded:Well...I did read it But I'm not sure if I wholy agree with it...

[Edited on 22/3/2008 by cirdaneth]
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Post RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: September 25, 2002 03:45
What a tough subject. I have to agree with Airetasarë about the 'natural' thing when it comes to elves. I also fancy it to be a beautiful experience for them. What else would you do with immortality? I always thought that they might have some sort of birth control, not the pill or anything, just a way to control it.

Hobbits I believe do it for the sake of having children, and in a marriage. I never thought them sexually promiscuous. They're innocent and playful.

Humans...well...are very sexual creatures. So I would think there is a lot of sex going around, whether married or not. Much like today. Unfortunately, there would probably be a great deal of sexual abuse, seeing as there are no laws of restriction.

Dwarves...I don't know...and I don't want to know...no offence. I don't like beards.

I know there are a lot of gay jokes about LotR, and it's all fun and games. But at times during TTT and RotK, Frodo and Sams relationship looked to be more than friendship, seriously. Not sure what middle-earth thinks about homosexuality, but I bet it isn't even mentioned. And if someone had such an encounter, I don't think they would see it as 'wrong'. It's hard to explain, but they wouldn't perceive it as 'bad' or 'wrong', like the impression we get today. They don't have many restrictions to whats 'right' and 'wrong'. Well that's all I have for now, I need more time to think @.@

[Edited on 26/9/2002 by ~Ascarantwen_the_Elf~]
Fíriel
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Post RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: September 25, 2002 11:17
Once again, I'll point to http://www.ansereg.com/what_tolkien_officially_said_abo.htm (Elves), http://henneth-annun.net/stories/chapter_view.cfm?STID=462&SPOrdinal=1 (Hobbits) and http://www.ansereg.com/warm_beds_are_good.htm (Middle Earth in general). These articles are meant for adults though, although I'm sure some of you will conveniently forget that anyway.

Must get off; parents are shouting at me.
Figwit
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Post RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: September 26, 2002 12:02
This is a very tough question...

I would say that it may not be as we think it would be...

Elves, for instance, were clearly manipulated by Tolkien into monogamy... Think about it: if you were semi-immortal, would you spend 5000 years or more with one and the same person? Even if he or she were perfect? I think Tolkien's concept of 'love' between Elves is just taken from our romantic concept of love - which is, indeed, a concept and not a reality...

If Tolkien wouldn't have made it so clear that Elves are monogamous, I would say they would be rather 'merry' about sex... Since they are the creatures closest to nature, they would also be least afraid of their own body and its desires...

As for Hobbits: 'no sex please, we are Brittish', except for good ol' Sam, that is

Humans would in my opinion be more naturally inclined to monogamy, since that is the way most paternalistic societies are organised... I can imagine that - since Humans in Tolkien's works seem to have a war-culture - women would have a double place in society: both mother and goddess, both maid and queen - much like in our western societies...

I don't think that sexual violence would be more prominent amongst Humans, why would it? War-cultures only allow sexual violence on enemies (both male and female), but who would want to have sex with an Orc?

I do however belief that if one race would tolerate homosexuality, it would be this one: war-cultures tend to celebrate the Archetype Male not only in a 'spiritual way' (as an exemplum) but also in a very physical way (for instance some Germanic tribes had 'mating rites' for soldiers)...

Dwarves... We know that a lot of female Dwarves chose not to wedd (Tolkien writes this in the appendices) so it seems that marriage is not of an arranged kind for the Dwarves. This phrase also implies that sex and children for Dwarves also are bound into marriage - another hint of Tolkien's own opinions, because it would seem to me that no race would allow itself to die simply because of a no-pre-marital sex rule...

Since only 1/3d of the Dwarves is female, I can see a good reason for tolerating homosexuality here too...

Istari... Ha! Now there's something I do wonder about... And Ents!
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Post RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: September 26, 2002 05:53
I've heard it said that sometimes that which is not said speaks volumes. I have a somewhat old fashioned view of "discussing sex." To me, it is a beautiful thing to be shared between two people who have already realized they are very much in love with each other apart from a sexual relationship. I do not care to discuss other people's sex lives and sexual preferences in a public manner, rather, I think what people do, and how they do it and with whom should be a private matter.

I would say, that since it is not talked about or referred to much..rather, at all... by the characters themselves, that perhaps they honor this act in the same way. It is a beautiful thing that happens privately, behind closed doors or holes in the ground or hollow trees....

Obviously, there are baby humans, baby Hobbits, and talk of ages of elves, so there must be procreation happening....but I would say, that while no "religious" notion may be attached to the M-E concept of sexual relations, perhaps the ideal of honor and respect for each other is what influences them.

Yes, Tolkien may have written his own morals into the tale, but just examining the text for what it is, apart from Tolkien, I would say of the characters that they respected the act and honored the act and each other by keeping talk of it out of the limelight.

Again, not based on what is said, but on what is not said. My opinion.
Naithriel
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Post RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: September 30, 2002 09:07
I got the impression that the population of Dwarves was very static where expansion was quite limited. Few children, I guess, and also a very high infant death rate.

I've always assumed that Elves were even more so; very, very unfertile, and slow to concieve. This might also explain why Elven children are so few and far between, and also treasured beyond all else. This doesn't rule out that they make love like rabbits, though, and if one lives as long as they do, one is going to need something fun to pass the time.

As for hobbits, they are farmers and right now my History teacher is beating me over the head with the fact that farmers need lots of children. So I assume there is lots of Chubby Love going on.

Humans are easy, think Middle Age Europe; lots of frolicking that is frowned upon, lots of adultery that is frowned upon and severely punished, etc. I can see fathers marrying daughters off early so any indiscretions they get into become the husband's problem and not theirs.

As for the Ents, I guess they just kind of pollinate, or drop nuts, or something. They struck me as very very asexual beings.

Well there's my $0.02 and I'm fairly sure I didn't just repeat what others were saying.

[Edited on 22/3/2008 by cirdaneth]
Fíriel
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Post RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: September 30, 2002 03:08
Now here's something I've been wondering:

Do Elvish women menstruate?

Seriously! When you think of it, it can greatly affect the lives of Elves. It's said somewhere (in Tolkien canon) that Elves can choose to concieve their babies, so does an Elvish woman choose to ovulate, or does the menstrual cycle occur regularly anyway? The Tolkien canon again says somewhere that Elves lose their desire for 'physical passion'. Could it be because that they go through a menopause of sorts, or is it purely willpower that quenches their desire for sex?
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Post RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: October 01, 2002 06:59
Hobbits in my opinion go for the simple pleasures in life, this results in many children. also they lived in a relatively fear free environment with plenty avaliable. populations often grow rapidly in this situation as there is little early death, or husbands going away to war etc. etc.
hobbits are "merry" about sex

elves- well they are strange i could go both ways with them. theres no doubt that they have very few children. perhaps they have too much respect for the earth to overpopulate and dont feel the drive to reproduce because their species cant fail- being immortal and all. does anyone know how long the pregnancy of elves is ( i have images of a 200 year long gestation or something eek!!)

men well i would assume they are like men in our world. probably around the time of the second world war. the males have to go off and fight for their country and therefore may not have time to court a wife. others may have children when they can. so its probably as varied as it can get, with step children and some couples with loads of kids and some people not in a couple at all. men i think dont have the oppertunity to be "merry" about sex- its about oppertunity and keeping their line going.

the whole thing about pre marital sex in lord of the rings. well it seems to me that the only acceptable way to have children was to be married. this may have been different for men (especially in war torn areas) but is IMO true for hobbits and elves and of course dwarves.

homosexuality isnt mentioned at all. i really havent a clue how the races would have viewed it. or whether it may even have occured.

as to elvish women mensturating- thats an interesting thought.
did you know that in victorian (ish!) times in england woman rarely mensturated maybe once or twice a year. it is only very recently that it has become a regular cycle (as far as i have been told at any rate) i would assume if elves did then it would be simelar to this- not really regular maybe every 10 years or something- this may be why the birth rate is so low
as well

[Edited on 22/3/2008 by cirdaneth]
Elruwen
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Post RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: October 01, 2002 11:44
I agree with lostcat. i think that it was not mentioned in the books because the races of M-E hold a certain honour in it and also its a really private thing.
highlandergirl
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Post RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: November 08, 2002 01:54
I think that it's great that it isn't mentioned so much...so the love we do read about isn't trivialized by lust, because to me love is much more, Anyone can have lust for anyone. I don't know about elves...but I imagine Arwen and Aragorn waited for each other. As far as the men, obviously probably plenty of bawdiness going on, but I imagine many of the men to be respectful and noble towards the ladies. When Faramir kisses Eowyn, he's already made a commitment in his heart to marry her. No offense..the promiscuity of our present society has really caused alot of grief with the consequences, and men don't view women as worth waiting any length of time for which means women stop viewing themselves that way too. I definitly don't think M.E was this way at all. I love the way Tolkien didn't exploit that avenue. I mean I've been nine months pregnant carrying groceries and there'll be like three guys standing right by the door, and not one will open it. I don't think Boromir, or Aragorn would've been one of those guys! And the honor in that area I think carried over into the other as well. I think their sex was natural and special within the confines of their love. That doesn't make it bland.Tom and Goldenberry probably had a jolly good time, I'd imagine,( if she could get him to shut up first, of course.-see sig.) Sam and Rosie, too. Sorry Rivka I don't exactly remember the question of the topic anymore! Oh, yeah...about that, *ahem,* menstration thing, women don't menstrate as much when they're nursing which women did longer..( except the upper class with their wet-nurses),and you don't menstrate at all when you're pregnant which women were alot of the time you're right about the body fat, it supresses estrogen..making conditions right for, You know that time of the month..

[Edited on 9/11/2002 by highlandergirl]
Rivka
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Post RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: November 08, 2002 03:35
LOL, well, when I posted the question, I was more interested in what people thought about how the various societies in M-E perceived the idea of morality and it's relation to sexuality, and hadn't intended for the discussion to go into, ah, actual sexual practices so much, or menstruation. But I think it's been an interesting discussion, none the less...
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Narulothwen
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Post RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: February 07, 2003 01:07
Did anyone look at the marriage ceremony of Aragorn & Arwen? Her dad puts her hand in her husband's hand & that's it. No vows, no rice, no rabbi! Nice reception later.
Sounds like the medieval "Hand-fasting" to me. Nothing formal, but for life.

As for being pregnant, I looked forward to the months of freedom from the "feminine products" aisle & all that goes with it. Nursing a baby prolongs the bliss.

I think Tolkien left things unsaid that proper people don't discuss in public (as opposed to killing each other, a VERY public thing!).
I like the idea that elves were monogomers. It's a very nice way to do business!
Neenime
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Post RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: February 09, 2003 04:22
Hobbits are also very close to nature and enjoy the sensual pleasures of food, smoke and company. I would expect them to have a relaxed attitude to sexuality without a lot of complicated rules.

I wonder about Elves. They seem close to Nature, yet they seem aloof and intellectual. Sometimes, getting too far into intellectual stuff splits people off from their bodies (for humans, anyway). If that happened to Elves, then their sexual attitudes might be a bit formal and even stuffy.

I see more of a role for women in their society, the Earth-Mother plus Goddess combination, as played out by Galadriel. Not sure that I see it so much among Humans, but will look more closely next time I read ROTK.

I agree that Humans in middle Earth have themselves organized in an authority-based social structure. From Tolkien's male-dominated writings, one could easily conclude that they are paternalistic. That usually goes with lots of rules and hierarchies and concern about proving who fathered what baby and so I would expect sexuality to be highly controlled by many rules.

Someone speculated that orcs (of the dark forces in geberal)would have had homosexulaity, based on a military culture. I agree and think that it would be a power-based sexuality (like rape) rather than the normal range of emotions and relationship that we would see in homosexuality among the ordinary popluation.

A few people, have commented on the possible homosexual relationship between Frodo and Sam. Looking closely at the interactions in the book and even in the films, I see nothing at all that could be interpretted as sexual. There are certain glances, lingering body contact in unnecessary ways and flirting that would be occurring and I can't see it.

Our society tends to sexualize lots of things (the advertising industry is one big sexual romp!) and we are afriad of real human closeness and deep vulnerability. So we call it sexual, some go on to criticize it and we all feel safe that we don't have such nasty impulses and that there is nothig out there expect nice, clean heterosexual fun (um, no not fun, just doing our duty...).

[Edited on 22/3/2008 by cirdaneth]
“Some believe it is only great power that can hold evil in check. But that is not what I have found. I have found that it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay. Small acts of kindness and love. " Gandalf
Figwit
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Post RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: February 09, 2003 11:08
Great post Neenime! I agree with almost everything you say (although I have different opinions, it all sounds very plausible to me).

As for the Human society, I only concluded it'd be paternalistic because I have always seen it as a warriors-society.
It's strange (to me) that you'd suggest the Orcs would have a warrior-society based on homosexuality (well, rape). To some degree, there has to be a certain amount of females, because the orcs of Moria for instance have thrived for many generations without anyone (supposedly) 'producing' them.
It's an interesting thought though, to use sexuality as a weapon.
Figwit
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Post RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: February 12, 2003 11:40
Had some time to gather my thoughts, so I'll try to explain where your and my view drift apart.

I started out from the character of Boromir, mainly, to try to understand the Gondorian ways. I have always believed it to be patriarchal, simply because Tolkien seems to attach a lot of value to the figure of the father, and it seems only logical that he would also use this to built or define this society, where the influence of the father is so tangible (with Denethor influencing the actions of both Faramir and Boromir).

Then I based myself on the only warrior societies I really know, which are the Danish tribes that went from Skandinavia to England around 600. This is a society that is built around a Father Figure, the Captain or Chief, who posesses everything owned or gained by the tribe, including the children. A marriage in this society was based on an economical contract, and was mostly ordered by the Chief.

Of course the Gondorian one was an expanded society, and communities that live in cities function differently from those in rural areas, but I think this is somehow how they lived, the place of the Chief taken by the Elders, who still decided for their families who would marry who.

The reason why I think they would be a warrior society, is because of the state of war and uncertainty they are in. The figure of Boromir was again crucial in this to me, as he is a soldier.
When I say a warrior society, I mean a society which is built around a military core, and not a society of strong individuals. Everyone tied up to the military core would be, in my opinion, a soldier and not a warrior (a soldier follows orders, a warrior picks his own battles).

There are two types of sexual morality which have to be dealt with: outside the military core and inside it.
Outside, I believe it was a man-dominated society with little real respect for women, but an ideal of chivalry. The woman would be seen as a Mother and a Goddess, but treated as neither. Marriages would most likely still be out of the hands of both husband and wife to be, and arranged as a means to climb the social or economic ladder.

Inside the military core, however, I never considered the thought of sex as a weapon. I had considered the possibility of homosexuality being tolerated, but not as a ay of living together (a semi-institutionalised relationship) but as a means of taking pleasure, consolidating bonds and celebrating life.
Especially the second part is important to me, because there is a difference between raping someone into obedience and making alliences through intimacy. They could be easily confused, but I honestly believe the second would be used.

Now, I saw the orc societies somewhat based on the same principles as this military core (including an honour code, for instance). I know Orcs and Goblins are mostly depicted as bands of wild creatures who have as a sole intention to kill and destroy. But if they would turn on each other, they would not form societies. Those who 'belong' to a Lord (to Saruman or Sauron for instance) could be tortured into obedience, but Goblins live together without such a controlling force, which means they must have found a way to live together.
I never considered a natural Orc society would use rape as a means to create obedience, but an army under control of a second party could. So I have to agree with you there.


One last remark, and then I'll stop (cross my heart... ). I nevr thought of all soldiers being good people, but given the context of Gondor they would have to be assembled around one common goal, and they can never be allowing themselves or others to use a weapon or torture to uphold a position of power of dominance.
The Gondorian society is one in decay and under heavy tension. When this happens, the society tens to concentrate itself around one goal (most likely a common enemy) and raise a non-tolerance policy towards crimes commited by one member of the society on another. They would however, be ruthless when faced with their enemies, but like someone already said: who would want to rape an Orc?

ED: Neenime added:I like the distinction between warrior and soldier.

I would hope that the core decency of Gondorians and some of their social and spiritual beliefs would be the protective factor which prevents the society from sliding into a panicked anarchy. As long as there is some order, a reasonable use of authority and power, the rules and beliefes about chivalry etc should hold in place.

[Edited on 22/3/2008 by cirdaneth]
Eyborg
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Post RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: January 18, 2004 08:11
This is an old topic I just stumbled on, but I find it very interesting because I've been thinking about exactly the same thing myself. How is sex viewed in Middle Earth?

I've always imagines that the humans in ME view sex a bit similar than we did in the middle ages, that is, as something which should be done within marriage, but at the same time something you do with the one you love (no "lie back and think of England" or at least I hope so). At least the more "decent" humans would think so. On the other hand there are several human cultures in ME, so I imagine there might be different ways of thinking for Rohan people and Harad people for instance, if you know what I mean...

Elves are people who are very "pure", so I imagine they see sex as something sacred between people who truly love each other. So no sex outside of marriage for them. Like somebody mentioned here earlier, why have sex with somebody if you don't love him/her? And if you love him/her, why don't you get married?

Hobbits I believe think a lot the same way. They are pure, innocent people, but also very "sensual", they enjoy earthly pleasures like eating, smoking, drinking and having simple fun. So I imagine sex is just a normal, healthy and beautiful thing for them, but also something sacred and private that should only be done in love within marriage. - Don't forget that most hobbits have lots of kids (Sam and Rosie anyone?)

I guess Dwarves are a lot the same way. However I don't know enough about the Dwarf-women to analyze them, so I guess I leave it there...

Orcs... no comment. :evil:
Ents... no idea...

But basically, I imagine that sex in Middle Earth is seen as a sacred, beautiful thing between two people who love each other, and which should be treated with respect. And I imagine Tolkien thought the same way.
BTW I totally agree with Lostcat. I'm pretty old-fashioned about sex myself.

Again, great topic!
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Post RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: February 03, 2004 02:01
I agree with Lostcat. I think that Elves tend to hold things more sacred than humans, including sex. After all they place a great deal of value on honoring the earth, and I believe they would have honored each other too :love:
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Post RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: February 04, 2004 07:17
Wow, this is an excellent topic and you all have great points!!!! I hope I wont be repeating all yo have said!!!!!!

Hmm...
I don't know but I always thought Elves would be very aloof when it comes to sex. Elves don't need sleep, and I think that they're living on a spiritual and mental state rather than a physical. Somehow I don't think lust is a part of their society!!! They're much more like inner poise and wisdom and skills. I know that some of the elves do show sparks of fire under their skin, but I don't see it come out as something sexual...
I don't think the Elves get married, as in having some fancy ceremony and stuff, I think it's more likely that they'd decide to share their lives (or their eternities) together -and then yes, I think sex would occur at times, and that may be what bonded them for ever. But still, I have some difficulties as seeing them getting physical -I am swayed to believe they would have the sex on another level unimaginable to mortal men.:dizzy: By the way, I don't think the Elves were infertile, but as far as I've read, the number of Elves cannot increase, for when an Elf dies it comes to the Halls of Mandos where it waits until it is able to enter a new body. I think the "souls" or spirits of the Elves are being reincarnated and since it is not often that elves die, not many souls are left to be born anew.

Then on to the men!!!!! I think that the basics might be the same to both the Rohirrim and the Gondorreans. Bu unlike both Figwit and Neenime, I have always thought of the Gondorreans as the intellectual branch of the human race. Especially those who live in the city. I see them being very courteous and gallant in their ways of woeing their ladies, I think they see love as a sacred thing and sex as something you only do behind closed doors when you're married. They are more fond of the concept of love than the kissing and hugging etc. By the way, I agree with you of this beeing a very patriachal society, I think the elder got their ways with who were to marry who in the end, though I think love would enter the considerations.
As for the Rohirrim and the farming Gondorreans I think they might be as human in the middle age in Europe. I think they had sex often and concieved many children, because the death rate would be very great. I think the way Eomer sees his sister would be the general opinion of the men in Rohan, chics can't do such and such, they are meant to stay in the kitchens. I think they do not think much of weakness and people who might be weak, are not as worthy of honour and respect. I think that is why Theoden tells Merry not to fight, he is not strong. And I also think that is why he looks kindly upon Eowyn after she has defeated the Witch King, she has prooven that she is not some weak lady but a willful women that knows how to act in perilous situations same as men. The society of the Rohirrim is the society where I would imagine arranged marriages would be happening frequently.

Hmm, and dwarves. I think the dwarven society must be one of the most liberal societies. I don't think there were discriminated between the sexes. As is said, Dwarven women are allowed to choose whether they would marry or not, and I think they would also be working and fighting same as males. I think the needs of the dwarves are very earthly and down to earth, and if there were indeed a society where I think homosexuality (both concerning men and women) would be possible, it is here. And I think it wouldn't be looked upon with judging eyes, it is more like, do what you want to fulfill your needs. I may actually be swayed to think that homosexueality were the common thing, and therefore not many dwarves were born. I don't think children were a great part of the Dwarvish culture, since most dwarves have a great life span -I don't think they wanted children until they were very old and had settled down....

Hmmm, moving unto hobbits.... I think that they would rather enjoy the lovemaking, but in a simple way (I DON'T see them being experimentative in this area). But again, I don't think they'd do more than kiss and hold hand while being with other people. I think they consider it all a personal matter and rather wish to keep their private life to themselves.

Orcs and goblins -haven't really thought about it, I haven't heard any about female creatures of their race, maybe evolution has found another way to increase their number.

Ents -I don't remember who wrote that they didn't see them as being sexually creative -toyally agree with you on that!!!! Definently!!!! In fact I think their love is kind of more childish and innocent.

Maia -they must be able to have sexual intercourse (how would Luthien have been born if not), but I have difficulties seeing the Istari doing that. I think their minds are not interested in down-to-earth thing like that, yet both Saruman and Gandalf like smoking pipe-weed.

Valar, well they can love, why else do they marry... Don't know exactly if it's not simply a mental understanding and mutiny that brings them together......

Wooow, seems I have scribbeld far to much for know, sorry if I have bored you.... :blush::blush::blush::blush:
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Post RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: February 24, 2004 04:31
I think it's wonderful that nothing of an explicitly adult nature, pg13 and so on, aren't in the books. It makes them aproprate for kids to read and enjoy.
Bookfaramir
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Post RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: March 18, 2004 12:58
Tolkien does not describe sex explicitly in his books, but if you read the Silmarillion and the Unfinished Tales carefully, you will find stories with sexual subjects:

1) Forced marriages
The Akallabeth mention two Númenorian kings, Ar-Gimilzor and his grandson Ar-Pharazon, who married beautiful women against their will. Ar-Gimilzor married Inzilbeth and even conceived two sons with her, although there was no love between husband and wife. Ar-Pharazon married his cousin, Queen Tar-Míriel, to become king himself. Poor queens! I think the "fulfillment of marital duties" must have been horrible for them. Those kings suck!:angry:

2) Incest
The incest taboo also exists in Tolkien's world. The marriage between Ar-Pharazon and Tar-Míriel was for two reasons against the law of Númenor: It was forced and the spouses were first cousins. Also Elves had this incest taboo, therefore Maeglin could not marry his cousin Idril Celebrindal, whom he desired so much. And the most tragic story in the whole Silmarillion is about sibling incest - Túrin Turambar and Nienor Níniel! Whenever I read this story, it makes me so sad!:cry:
arvegil
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Post RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: May 26, 2004 11:56
Celebrían may very well have been raped, but there is just no way to say for certain, so speculate away.


There is something in HoME (I believe in Laws and Customs of the Eldar) to the effect that Elves could will their Spirits (fea) away from their bodies (hroa) if something so repugnant was to happen. In that case, Celebrian's fea would have departed from her body prior to being violated.


[Edited on 22/3/2008 by cirdaneth]
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: May 27, 2004 07:17
Sex and reproduction were only background events in Tolkien's writing. Unlike many modern writers, most writers in Tolkien's era didn't feel the need to emphasize or even discuss sexual relationships. Children were born and people married etc. but there was no need or desire to go into a 3 page description of the conception event itself.
there is a great deal of writing by Tolkien on relationships amonst his various peoples but you'll have to look in the HOME series to find it ( mostly in Volume 12- The Peoples of Middle-Earth
People are always fascinated by sex and morality issues and they are always eagerly discussed by people irregardless of an author's use or non-use of it in a book(Tolkien also never discussed washroom habits for his characters but that doesn't mean that they didn't have waste products and a need to relieve themselves. As far as I can remember no-one has ever asked if hobbits used paper tissues or pinecones - although there was once a thread here asking about outhouses)



[Edited on 27/5/2004 by PotbellyHairyfoot]
Morna_Child_of_Eru
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Post RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: May 22, 2005 03:30
I did find a website that had some info on Elvish sex lives. Here's the URL, if anyone is interested.

http://www.ansereg.com/what_tolkien_officially_said_abo.htm

Here's some qoutes:

An important source is the essay "Laws and Customs of the Eldar" (LACE), published in the book Morgoth's Ring, History of Middle-Earth .

Elves are not frigid, though they tend to loose interest in sex after they have children. They are not driven by lust.

"The union of love is indeed to them great delight and joy...With the exercise of the power of generation, the desire soon ceases, and the mind turns to other things…they have many other urges of body and of mind which their nature urges them to fulfil...they are seldom swayed by the desires of the body only, but are by nature continent and steadfast." (LACE)

Also, to Elves, sex=marriage.

"It was the act of bodily union that achieved marriage...it was at all times lawful for any of the Eldar, both being unwed, to marry thus of free consent one to the other without ceremony or witness…in flight and exile and wandering, such marriages were often made." (LACE).

We can assume, then, that Elves did not practice casual sex. We also read that rape was considered a "very wicked deed" to the Elves. "Eöl found...the sister of King Turgon astray in the wild near his dwelling, and he took her to wife by force: a very wicked deed in the eyes of the Eldar." (Quendi and Eldar essay, footnote 9, War of the Jewels, History of Middle-Earth series)

[Edited on 23/5/2005 by Morna_Child_of_Eru]
Elioclya
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Post RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: May 23, 2005 09:40
I read that earlier today - someone else had posted that and a couple of other links on the first page. I read through this entire thread but by the end of it I'd forgotten what I meant to say... maybe I'll remember now

I disagree with those people who seem to think that because Elves are more in touch with nature they're also more in touch with their sexuality - I would go rather with the idea that they are fully aware of it and understand it, but that it simply doesn't play a very large part in much of their lives. As several people have commented, and as I think one of the essays said, they marry young - not by ceremonies or rituals but through the act of sexual union itself - and then go on to have children. After that, their ardour seems to cool down - at least that's the implication to me. For me, that makes sense. Elves aren't about animal passions or instinctual actions - they're about the arts and intellectual achievements, wisdom and healing. It seems to me that their marriages in the long term would probably be more for companionship and perhaps the sharing of knowledge. The idea that they would be free and to an extent promiscuous in their relationships just doesn't seem to fit to me.

I think most people seem to agree that the system with Men was something like that of the Middle Ages, and I think I would agree with that. I read somewhere though (I think it was in Aldarion and Erendis in Unfinished Tales but it's quite possible that it was in fact someone else - if anyone knows let me know ) that one custom was that married couples would not sleep together if they were soon to be parted for any length of time, for the sake of any possible children. Just a side-note really.

As for Hobbits, well, I think that in these matters they're fairly simple people and not the kind to really even consider sex before marriage. The episode where Same speaks to Frodo about Rosie in The Grey Havens (Chapter IX of Book 6, ROTK) comes to mind:

"It's Rosie, Rose Cotton," said Sam. "It seems she didn't like my going abroad at all, poor lass; but as I hadn't spoken, she couldn't say so."


To me, that doesn't sound like the kind of society where sex could ever be expected to take place outside marriage!

As for Ents... I think that's a complicated one. In Treebeard (Chapter IV, Book 3, TTT), Treebeard remembers the beauty of more than one Entwife, but it's Fimbrethil he really wants to see. It says that the Ents and Entwives "walked together and they housed together", but that could mean communally or as couples. In context it seems more likely to be a group thing, but it's down to interpretation. Also the way Treebeard speaks about "talking to young Entings" seems to imply a kind of group culture to me, but again... interpretation! Certainly the two kinds were needed to produce Entings, but how it worked is kind of shrouded!
LadyBeruthiel
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Post RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: May 24, 2005 05:32
Tolkien was a devout Catholic, and his morality pervades Middle Earth, even though he doesn't use religious language. Honorable people would hold marriage in honor, and sex would be seen as deepening the love between partners as well as producing children. In fact, I think love trumps sex in ME; there are different kinds of love, and not all of them are expressed sexually (Frodo and Sam's love, for example, is intense because they've had some intense experiences together. It isn't necessarily erotic.)

Elves, Men and Hobbits have already been much discussed here, but dwarves, now... I think the dwarves might surprise you. For one thing, Gimli's love for Galadriel comes straight out of the medieval courtly love tradition in which a knight (or troubadour) falls in love with a lady, usually someone else's wife. Because he can't honorably consummate his passion, he devotes himself to her service, sublimating desire into noble deeds of courage or great works of art that celebrate her beauty. (Gimli promises to enshrine his Lady's golden locks in crystal.) In practice, the courtly love ideal was hard to live up to and spawned a lot of adulterous affairs, but I think Tolkien is giving us the ideal here.

Dwarves, remember, are craftsmen, great lovers of beauty in both nature and art. They are also fierce in defense of their honor. So I would imagine that, since female dwarves are few, the race would have a lot of sublimating to do. On the other hand, dwarven marriages, when they do occur, would be the most passionate and romantic of all!

[Edited on 22/3/2008 by cirdaneth]
RiverWoman
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Post RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: May 25, 2005 02:57
About dwarves, it also says in the appendix that not all marry - some are too devoted to their craft to be interested in family life, and some don't manage to win the spouse they want and so never marry. I'm paraphrasing, don't have my books here at work.
Strider_is_the_cats_MEOW
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Post RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: June 01, 2005 09:46
I think Tolkien didnt mention sex in his books mainly because it might get people off track from the marvelous story, or if he did mention it, it was very subtle. But, I have to agree with some of the poeple who say Sam and Frodo, and Merry and Pippin were VERY close friends. I dont think tolkien meant for it to be taken that way at all though. Then again Aragorn and Arwen went frolicking on the mountainside and the hobbits ran naked through the grass. I think we should just stay to what Tolkien said and not twist it. (even though joking about Legolas being gay is terrible fun)
I agree with everybody about the mortal men and hobbits. But Im not sure about what the elves thought of sex. I have two theories about the Elves. either a) they believed in ONLY having sex once they were married, or b) they thought of it as something that was not necessarily supposed to be shameful or kept hidden but beautiful instead.
TinaHalfelven
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Post RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: June 01, 2005 11:52
I agree with Failië. There is no need for sex in LotR.
Failië
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Post RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: June 01, 2005 12:23
Thank-you.

Everyone can have their own opinions, mind, but I'm really glad it's not included. For one thing, my parents, being as strict as they are, probably wouldn't have let me read if there was. (They didn't let me read Harry Potter until I was in 8th grade.)
Morna_Child_of_Eru
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Post RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: June 03, 2005 05:18
I agree that there isn't a need to be explicit. The plot of LotR doesn't depend on it (I have read great books that do have sex as a plot imparative, but LotR isn't one of them).

I do kind of like the fact that it's Ok to talk about it now, though. The problems and addictions people have always had in this area are still around, but maybe now, that it's Ok to talk about sex at all, we can start to figure out what is healthy and what isn't. Can't solve a problem till you can discuss it's existance.

Ok that was off-topic. Sorry
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Post RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: June 03, 2005 02:23
Maybe I'm missing something here, but I don't think anyone is talking about wanting there to be sex scenes in the books Talking about the sexual and moral culture of the books is a far cry from there being actual sex in the books. When I originally started this thread, it was to try to get a deeper knowledge of the underlying moral culture of Tolkien's world, i.e. that stuff that is often hidden even in our own society today -- and there's been a lot of great discussion on it, with people pulling info from HOME and elsewhere. I want to thank everyone for keeping an interesting thread (IMO, at any rate) going for all these years
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Rulea
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Post RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: June 03, 2005 03:53
I think Tolkien let some premartial sex happen in the Sil's Tale of Luthien and Beren, when Luthien comes to Beren and they spend the night in each others arms.

ED: Morwinyoniel said:I don't think so because, in Tolkien's universe, having sex = getting married. People can sleep in each other's arms without going any further than perhaps kissing.

[Edited on 22/3/2008 by cirdaneth]
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celebrin_uial
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Post RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: June 04, 2005 01:59
I would like to add to this thread, mostly because it is a rather interesting thought to include but also because i have some theories on it myself. I realize some of what is said hasbeen said before.

1st I realize the time period Tolkien wrote in took place at a time in england when people did not speak openly about sex, though I am sure when the books were published and carried on into the 60's and 70's he too was asked, though being the Catholic that he was from an older society he would not have even thought to answer such questions.

2nd I know that Tolkien's universe was created to give life to his language, a noble act indeed. But for the sake of curiosity i will commence with the thread.

Morality in M-E isnt that hard a thing to pin down actually,

All throughout the book there is talk of honor and loyalty, love and friendship, for example the act of Kinslaying that the noldor perpetrated upon the Teleri was thought to be extremely evil, even to the point of Exile, a punishment that was close to the death penalty in ancient times. One can assume that such values were transfered over to other aspects of life.
In that case one could think of morality in terms of love and sex in M-E along those same lines, adultery would be a disaterous for the cheater just as betryal toward one's people or one's king was paramount to death, so too would rape in the sense that it is a violation of one's life force as say raiding the treasury or slaying your kinsman. Yet I have heard that Elves were indeed naturally monogamous from those who are well versed in tolkien cannon. There is no date in the annals that i have heard of that give credit to the marriage of Galadriel and Celeborn yet throughout they are associated with wife and husband. Questions we must ask is How long was the courtship period? Elrond "courted" Celebrian for quite some time before they got married: according to Encyclopedia of Arda, the date of their marriage is far removed fromt he date of their meeting.

As for men well it becomes a little easier, with tolkien using the Anglo and Saxon Peoples for his model we can garner the Edain's morality and sex practices from there.

Dwarves do have sex! Gimli denies any popping out of rocks or arising from stones in the books and tolkien states there are indeed Dwarf women( despite John Rhys Davies excellent interpretation of a randy Dwarf in the EEROTK DVD) Yes it is a little freaky but hey to each his/her own right?

As for other more contraversial topics(such as homosexuality) Tolkien leaves his texts absent of it, maybe because even during his time it was not something to talk openly about. What is paramount to understanding love in Tolkien's world is that love has many faces. Turin loved Beleg it is said, and when he killed him he mourned for days, after he removed himself from his initial shock (could one interpret that as homosexuality or bisexuality in the sense that he loved a nale elf and then loved a female one as well-especially considering how youthful/ androgynous elfs were) Or could one interpret that as the medieval love between men that happened in every romantic tale from beowulf to arthur and beyond. ( one that still continues to puzzle some experts) Tolkien did include some gender bending issues, such as cross-dressing and gender-crossing- thanks to Eowyn, Aredhel, and Galadriel(whose original name was something akin to man-woman.) Could this be his comment on the changing gender-roles that sprung up in world war 2? I know Tolkien didnt like allegory, but its hard for any author to remove him/herself completely from their work, perhaps it wasnt a comment on society but it could have been a sub-concious thought that sprung up upon seeing it or at least his initial reaction to it. Love to Tolkien seems to me to be something sacred and not to be taken lightly, due mostly to the ravishing love of Luthien to deny her father and her heritage for the man she loves. In seeing this one can say that love and all its derivatives was sacred in M-E, and like somone said before private and personal ( such as the relations between Arwen and Aragorn and Luthien and Beren, that is until Daeron tattle-taled) It seems to me for the elves at least such exchanges were kept, in the family, as it were. thats what i think

[Edited on 5/6/2005 by celebrin_uial]
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: June 08, 2005 06:13
having sex = getting married.
Actually, no, the characters do have to get married just like us in Tolkien's work. Arwen and Aragorn didn't exactly have sex in front of everybody .

It may be a cause to get married, but it doesn't equal marriage. After all Tolkien wrote LotR like history and that was people's attitude about pre-marital sex long ago. Those who do, say the I-dos.
That's the normal situation: going through a certain kind of a ceremony and thereby letting the public know that you're married. BUT, there's a lot of information beyond LOTR, especially in "Of the Laws and Customs Among the Eldar" in Morgoth's Ring (HoME 10). That essay is about Elves, but I should think that the same rules go very much for humans:
But these ceremonies were not rites necessary to marriage; they were only a gracious mode by which the love of the parents was manifested, and the union was recognized which would join not only the betrothed but their two houses together. It was the act of bodily union that achieved marriage, and after which the indissoluble bond was complete. In happy days and times of peace it was held ungracious and contemptuous of kin to forgo the ceremonies, but it was at all times lawful for any of the Eldar, both being unwed, to marry thus of free consent one to another without ceremony or witness (save blessings exchanged and the naming of the Name); and the union so joined was alike indissoluble. In days of old, in times of trouble, in flight and exile and wandering, such marriages were often made. (bolding mine)
So, if a couple had sex, they were regarded as married, ceremony or no ceremony.

[Edited on 22/3/2008 by cirdaneth]
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