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calenlily

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RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: June 08, 2005 10:22

Earlier, some people were discussing whether elves had normal menstral cycles. Since there seems to be a large amount of control over pregnacy, I would say it would be definitely possible for them to ovulate only at will. (It'd certainly be nice.) I once heard someone wonder whether elves got PMS, so I'll throw that out there.

[Edited on 22/3/2008 by cirdaneth]

Alya

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RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: June 14, 2005 12:31

People can sleep in each other's arms without going any further than perhaps kissing.

This is true. We were doing a 24-hour Play-a-thon for band, and a flute and drum were sharing a sleeping bag, but I don't think they did anything because instructors and band members were parading in and out through the entire night.
However, there's always the literal meaning as opposed to the connotative meaning. We know that one tradition for weddings is that the bride's father puts his daughter's hand in the groom's. I would assume that they proceed to have a banquet or something, and then they go and "sleep in each others' arms." Somehow I don't see the elves as big fans of orgies or porn. :naughty:
Sorry if that was .....overly bad. :blush:

Morna_Child_of_Eru

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RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: June 22, 2005 04:04

Ok Ok Ok

So I'm reading Tolkien's letters and think I found an answer to this one.

Monogamy was at this period (LotR times) in the West universally practised, and other systems were regarded with repugnance, as things only done 'under the shadow'.

RavenLady

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RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: June 24, 2005 02:46

I don't know if this has been brought up . . . in fanfic, I've seen something to the effect that Elven conception is voluntary. Well-researched fanfic, in fact, but I haven't seen a source for that one yet. I know Morgoth's Ring covers that kind of thing, but it's been a while since I read it. I don't know what to make of this - is this canon or not? Quotes, anyone?

Thanks!

RavenLady

Morwinyoniel

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RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: June 25, 2005 09:20

I think this was a beautiful way to write about homosexual love.

I don't think so - because, as a devout Catholic who was very careful to not say or do anything controversial to the teachings of the Church, Tolkien hardly would have accepted homosexuality as a natural thing. That kind of interpretation of the relationship of Frodo and Sam, as well as some others, is a product of modern times, in which a deep nonsexual friendship between males seems to be a completely unfamiliar concept.

Morna_Child_of_Eru

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RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: June 25, 2005 04:28

Very good point Morwinyoniel

Just a reminder to everyone...we're not gay-bashing just because we refuse to see Frodo and Sam's relationship as homosexual. All we're doing is trying to interpret Tolkien's work in the light of his own self-declared worldview. One must always consider the background of an author in order to have any hope at all of understanding his work.

Figwit

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RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: June 26, 2005 07:08

ED: Figwit took Aquilas up on a number of statements. These are quoted in bold below with Figwit's comments.

Hand this one over to me, atalante

- Also, mind, going only slightly off-topic here

First and foremost it is poly- and panteistic, and christianity is not.

Polytheism literally means: multiple gods. So, if we take this literally, yes: many gods. Humans see Valar as gods.
However, Valar are not gods. Valar are Ainur, created by Ilúvatar - and they function like something inbetween angels and saints.

The fact that the Valar are worshipped, however, indicates something utterly and thoroughly catholic: saints. Saints are obviously not gods - they are humans who were so religious that God granted miracles at their request. However, they are worshipped much like gods are: catholics pray to saints, ask them for aid, have shrines for them, even chapels.
[Note that I speak only about Catholicism.]

So, I will admit that the point of polytheism is a valid one, and not one easily refuted. However, I believe that it is more correct to look at the Valar as saints rather than gods.

As for pantheism: definitely, definitely not! Arda is the result of the songs and thoughts of the Ainur. Arda is not completely possessed or breathed through with the spirit of either Ilúvatar, or the Valar. When it says 'Ulmo lives in all the waters', that doesn't mean that all the water is inhabited by Ulmo's spirit; or that all the water is holy!

Second reason: the deities does not demand any religious orders to obey.

Don't agree. Read the story of the downfal of Númenor.

Third reason: the books does not include any concepts of sin and salvation

Don't agree. Read 'The Lord of the Rings'

. See: not only are lust for power and fear of death huge big ugly sins in the most catholic sense of the word; there is a chance for salvation. And, like a good catholic, Tolkien doesn't place this salvation in the hands of some huge up-there-out-there divine power who rules our lives from the seat of wisdom; but in our own hands. Look at the many choices of Gollum; look at the message of pity given through both Frodo and Bilbo; look at Boromir's death...

That there is something like 'grace', is suggested in the idea of the end of time - as atalante mentioned.

Sounds very artificial explanation, but as a pagan, I do not have any reasons to twist Arda to be monoteistic.

Well, love, neither do I

.

Al interpretations are artificial, because they are manufactured. If I asked you to explain why you think Arda is pantheistic, I'm sure you would have to analyse the text, compose arguments, link quotes and present them to me. This is not a part of the text, this is an interpretation. So...

Why Silmarilion should be compared catholism anyway?
I think the point was to explain that certain moral ideas would not be defended by Tolkien because he's a catholic. Usually people who defend this point of view do this by pointing out that many aspects of Tolkien's works are in essence very catholic, so the morality in them would be too.

[Edited on 22/3/2008 by cirdaneth]

celebrin_uial

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RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: June 27, 2005 02:43

Woah this discussion went a little of course. Religion and Tolkien is in interesting topic to think about, albeit a touchy one as evident. But this topic does touch some underlying things in our modern society. Tolkien's generation were very dont ask dont tell about such things as sexuality( in all its forms) he had grown up at the cusp of the victorian age a time of sexual and personal stifling. Therefore there would be no mention of homosexuality in it, or at least its intention would have been to not represent it as such. Tolkien believed in intimacy without sexuality, a trait that most people find hard to do in this sexual-minded world. The relationship between Sam and Frodo is one of love, and if one wishes to believe it to be a bisexual relationship(because remember sam loved and married rosie cotton) then that is their interpretation of it through a MODERN prespective and through THIS generation's eyes. Tolkien however would not have even considered discussing homosexuality in public (even if he supported it), it just wasnt done in his generation so to think that he consciously put in a homosexual pair is basically dreaming; i say this not to offend anyone but to remain practical and sensible( and dont say im hating or anything, i am a bisexual first and foremost). Despite all that Tolkien's work is filled with love, compassion, passion, and above all hope. Each one of these aformentioned values, ideals, virtues, are part of every major religion in the world, yes even pagan ones, love of ones own and for others is a universal theme. Therefore it is folly to try and interpret tolkien's world as being eitehr this or that because that takes away from the truth of the subject matter.

the discussion of morality in tolkien's world is a good one, because it keeps us thinking about something we are passionate about yet lets not get carried away by assumptions of the man's work. Could homosexuality have existed in middle-earth? yes, it is possible- if middle-earth is an ancient form of this one then yes at least in my eyes becuase to me homosexuality is a natural occurance in human beings, elves we know not because they are the device of tolkien's mind. But lets try to keep the discussion one of common sense and leave politics out of it

hobbitnamedeliza

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RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: June 27, 2005 04:00

I believe the misconception that there are homosexual relationships in LOTR is perpetuated by modern times. Tolkien would never have written about homosexual characters because he would have considered homosexuality abberant and immoral. Those are just the facts of Tolkien's times and his religion.

What Tolkien DID write about, however, was a very common convention of his society--the warm and effusive relationship men enjoyed with their male friends:

This is something I posted in another thread on this same subject:

"Manly friendship [as opposed to male/female relationships which were usually somewhat formal--especially in public], however, was another matter. It was entirely expected that male friends would be warm and effusive with each other. There were pet names from their "public school" days; clubs; societites, etc. One might be more demonstrative with a friend in public than one would ever be with a woman. I also think there was a feeling that it was your friends you could count on to understand you--to be rational and supportive. With a woman, YOU were supposed to always be infallibly rational and supportive. In other words, it was largely with your male friends that you could be yourself. It was a different age, for sure, in many ways.

A typical misunderstanding of this among Americans is what leads to speculation about homosexuality between the male characters of LOTR. Nothing could be more ludicrous. "

atalante_star

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RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: June 28, 2005 12:20

OK ok .... I've bumped the homosexuality thread we've got ... so lets keep homosexuality discussion in there please

Figwit

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RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: June 29, 2005 07:21

First of all, there's a lightning storm heading this way, so I don't know if I'll be able to reply to everything right now...

Al interpretations are artificial, because they are manufactured. If I asked you to explain why you think Arda is pantheistic, I'm sure you would have to analyse the text, compose arguments, link quotes and present them to me. This is not a part of the text, this is an interpretation. So...
Do you mean in your opinion I do not have the right to made interpretation or do you mean only yours is the only right one or do you mean I can not read?

Thank you Elioclya for answering this one

.

A) Everyone has the obligation to make an interpretation, because otherwise you wouldn't understand the body-language, the words, the text, the signs, the painting, the music... Just going from a written 'A' to the sound or the letter 'a' is a form of interpretation. Needless to say that the more complex the object, the more complicated the process of interpretation will become and the larger the differences will be between different interpretors.

B) Mine is right?! Eh, què? Where did I say that? The fact in itself that interpretations are created by us, means that no one can ever be right. Like Elioclya said, only Tolkien himself would be right - and then a philosopher like Derrida has a couple of things to say about that...

It is very arrogant to claim, that the catholic interpretation is the only truth.

I would never claim that. I just said that, because of Tolkien's catholic background, there are some things I just cannot imagine him writing.

Lord of the Rings is an Arthurian story (pagan) and the influence of Kalevala (very pagan) is clear.

Arthurian Romances are everything BUT pagan, love. They're as christian as the next new testament.

Most of the texts we have from pre-christian times date back to the 10th or 11th century. That's when they received their written form. They were written down mostly by monks and scholars, who added little bits of christian thought to them.
Arthurian romances are christian re-interpretations of these older stories. Why else would Parcifal be looking for the Holy Grail?

This happened to all Germanic mythology, because it was an oral tradition and it was only written down by missionaries who came to baptise the pagans. Even the Edda aren't free of christian adjustments.

And that's not to claim these documents, because I think it's a real shame that we can't delve deeper into the heart of these beautiful and rich cultures. Their believes certainly enriched the christian project, but I believe the christian project destroyed our chance to understand our European ancestors.

I thought the meaning of the peace of art is to expound it in your own subjective way. Would you kindly honour mine too, please?

I do. There's just different ways of doing that. I personally prefer to debate things, so I can understand the arguments behind someone's ideas. Subjective opinions only go so far. If you say the Sil is pantheistic for instance, I will want to know why you think that - and I will want to explain why I think the opposite. Getting to know eachother's point of view is showing respect for the ideas of the other person. Again, that's how I feel.

But what really made me angry is your declaration that
"Certain moral ideas" would not be universal but catholic only.

I am quite surprised there is a hidden catholic agenda in this forum.

There is not. The majority of the christians on this site are "protestant", I don't even know how many varieties we got here.

That Tolkien was English, a catholic, a soldier in the first world war, a linguist, a scholar, a happily married man, an orphan, born in Africa.... are just things you'd want to include in a reading and interpretation of the text; no?

[Edited on 22/3/2008 by cirdaneth]

atalante_star

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RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: June 29, 2005 08:17

OK folks, let's chill a bit here ... please?

*Everyone* is entitled to their opinions, whether they be Catholic, atheist, pagan or a follower of the Buddha of Suburbia.

Everyone is entitled to have their opinions heard and respected - and that means both having their opinions respected, and respecting other people's.

There is a Catholic bias in this thread because *Tolkien* was a Catholic - not because some of the posters being Catholic. Catholic dogma and beliefs coloured Tolkien's world, and therefore coloured his books. And that is what we are discussing - Tolkien's world.

PotbellyHairyfoot

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RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: August 03, 2005 12:54

Its nice to escape from it all by reading Lord of the Rings. Something still clean!

Its not the deed that is unclean , but the way that it is generally treated in recent media depictions. Courtship was still important in LOTR
Aragorn waited decades to prove himself worthy of Arwen .
Sam waited to be with Rosie. Faramir and Eowyn only talked, and maybe held hands, on their first meetings. Love and emotions seem to play a less important role in modern media and depictions nowadays are more about instant gratification with a complete lack of emotional involvement..

[Edited on 22/3/2008 by cirdaneth]

~Caradhriel~

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RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: August 03, 2005 11:18

Good question, but what I simply meant was is that its good that LotR is a book which parents don't have to worry about giving to their children.

Physical love between two people is, of course, a beautiful thing, but sex is being exploited and used to sell books, films, products, ect.

I just think its good that LotR (both books and movies) don't have to use sex to sell themselves!!!

[Edited on 22/3/2008 by cirdaneth]

Morna_Child_of_Eru

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RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: August 07, 2005 05:03

I totally agree. Physical love between two people isn't dirty. What's dirty is treating the highest degree of intimacy and trust that human beings are cabable of like some kind of party game. Tolkien respects our God-given sexuality and honors it.

[Edited on 22/3/2008 by cirdaneth]

Kyp

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RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: August 17, 2005 07:34

Physical relationships and sex are NOT a dirty thing. But they ARE being exploited. Our society as a whole has become obssesed over sex, and the wilder it gets, the stricter parents have to be. Sex is as widely abused as drugs and alcohol.

quote by CrossMovement: "Since sex sells, I guess the next logical step was for them to turn around and sell sex."

Its getting quite out of hand. I being all of 17 have had a friend who I went to elementry with, have a kid. Her reasons were basically that she wanted to have some fun, that she really REALLY loved this guy, that she had no idea that the logical end to intercourse was procreation! Pretty much she wanted a quick fix, so why not have sex? Easy to obtain, produces a natural ecstasy, hey why not? The culture takes no responsibility to teach us (the kids) responsibility! I've had a friend die in a car wreck, a friend get knocked up and have a baby, one abuse cocaine and is now in Texas and haven't talked to him in about a year. I've worked with street kids. I've seen the effects in a 3 year old boy from when his mother put Vodka in his bottle to make him go to sleep at night so she could go sell herself to make money.

I tell you all this to tell you that LotR DOES provide an escape. It takes us to a place where there is honor left in human kind. Where men were responsible for conducting themselves as men. Sex was not running rampant all over middle-earth the way it is here. And for that I'm thankful.
Sex and procreation were taken for granted in the book, but never had a major role. It was implied that Samwise and Rosie had sex. If not, they wouldn't have had any children.
Now being as it is now 1:33 A.M. and I need to meet someone at 6:30 A.M., I will now get to sleep. I bid you all a goodnight (or good morning) and a very fond farewell.

Neithan

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RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: August 19, 2005 11:55

LotR is full of sexuality. It just happens to be monogamous and treated as more than merely physical. Tolkien had a very healthy attitude to sex.

RiverWoman

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RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: August 31, 2005 09:15

I am also an adult, married with teenaged children. I personally prefer not to read descriptions of specific sex acts. It is clear throughout JRRTs work that he exalts marriage and children. In HOME he states that it is sexual intercourse that defines marriage between elves, rather than, say, taking vows before a magistrate or religous leader. He describes human society as decaying when men marry late in life and have few or no children. Hobbits, who were really his ideal society, almost all marry and have large families. To me this describes a perfectly healthy sexuality.

cirdaneth

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RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: May 10, 2007 11:37

I think that's what Neithan meant. (The post was two years ago). There is attraction, and longing and long waits for fulfilment.

We also need to remember that in 1954 unmarried people, especially women, were not supposed to know about the sexual act. We knew something was being hidden from us. We tried to guess. We imagined some outrageous scenarios! and if we were told the truth by schoolfriends from the farms, it was so embarrassing that we didn't believe it.

So intent was the church and government to protect us from temptation that all books, plays, films etc were censored. Copies of books like Tropic of Capricorn, Moll Flanders and Fanny Hill were smuggled into the country from France and woe betide you if customs found one in your luggage. People murmered slyly about DH Lawrence and Lady Chatterly.

Then in 1964, Lady Chatterly's Lover was published here in the UK, in defiance of the censors and the publisher was sued. The censors lost their case and the world was changed. This was ten years after the publication of LotR, so you can imagine how careful Tolkien had to be.

NellasTaralom

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RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: November 30, 2008 06:35

This was an interesting older thread....

There is a Catholic bias in this thread because *Tolkien* was a Catholic - not because some of the posters being Catholic. Catholic dogma and beliefs coloured Tolkien's world, and therefore coloured his books. And that is what we are discussing - Tolkien's world.

From one of Tolkien's fellow Catholics, thank you atalante! Tolkien was a devout Catholic. Middle earth is his world and no one else's, and Middle earth is, essentially, a Catholic world. No one, no matter what they believe, can change that. They may interpret sex and moral issues in LOTR however they want, but they are wrong. I KNOW the Professor would want to tell you this, if he were still alive.

In his world, honor still exists...people are faithful to eachother. There aren't any prostitutes or strip-clubs in middle earth, you don't have elves divorcing or cheating on their spouses. This is one of the many reasons why I am so in love with the Lord of the Rings.....because there ARE NO sexual sins or perversions involved. none. It's such a relief for me as a Catholic to escape our world, with it's sex-obsession and its pornography, whenever I read Tolkien's books.

cirdaneth

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on: June 15, 2014 12:34

er ... bump!

Hanasian

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RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: October 25, 2014 05:45

NellasTaralom said:This was an interesting older thread....

There is a Catholic bias in this thread because *Tolkien* was a Catholic - not because some of the posters being Catholic. Catholic dogma and beliefs coloured Tolkien's world, and therefore coloured his books. And that is what we are discussing - Tolkien's world.

From one of Tolkien's fellow Catholics, thank you atalante! Tolkien was a devout Catholic. Middle earth is his world and no one else's, and Middle earth is, essentially, a Catholic world. No one, no matter what they believe, can change that. They may interpret sex and moral issues in LOTR however they want, but they are wrong. I KNOW the Professor would want to tell you this, if he were still alive.

In his world, honor still exists...people are faithful to eachother. There aren't any prostitutes or strip-clubs in middle earth, you don't have elves divorcing or cheating on their spouses. This is one of the many reasons why I am so in love with the Lord of the Rings.....because there ARE NO sexual sins or perversions involved. none. It's such a relief for me as a Catholic to escape our world, with it's sex-obsession and its pornography, whenever I read Tolkien's books.

'You KNOW the Professor would want to tell me what you say'?Wow....

Well now, to my best recollection (please point it out to me if I have missed something here), I don't remember there being a large religious sect or any huge temples of worship or a pope-like character in Middle Earth. And I DO remember a story that has been in The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, and Children of Hurin, where Turin and Neinor were essentially married. So tough to say that "NO sexual sins and perversions" were involved. And I'm sure all the inns were all squeaky clean as well.

A very interesting thread which I had not come across in all my time here! Thanks Rivka for asking this 14 years ago!

Eighth King of Arthedain - It was in battle that I come into this Kingship, and it will be in Battle when I leave it. There is no peace for the Realm of Arnor. Read the last stand of Arthedain in the Darkest of Days.

Nifredil

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on: January 20, 2015 07:47

This made for a very interesting (if sometimes alightly confusing) read! There must be some things deleted or added in the middle of all of this.

In a way, I understand Nellas, because Tolkien might have wanted his own ideals to be reflected in the ideals of the peoples that lived in the world he created. But he was not a stupid man, nor was he blind. There must have been things happening all around him, even if they were not openly spoken about. Take the War at least. Who has not lived it, cannot really imagine what goes on during it.

As a Catholic, Tolkien saw the world as a battle between the Good and the Evil. The same goes to morality issues. We usually percieve the Evil to be lacking of the moral standards that we see necessary as a society to function, this is why evil ceatures tend to kill without any regard for life, or regrets, they abuse, they rape, they torure... All of it can be found in Tolkien's works, and this evil needs to be fought against. Many things are not described in detail, or they are just hinted at, so it is up to our own imaginations to fill in the gaps. Like sex. There is no question, everybody has no doubt that all creatures in Tolkien's M-E have sex (or sex-like activity), we just want to know more

There might be split opinions regarding what can be defined as a "healthy sexuality". Heck, almost every culture has it's own take on it, and it is justified if you look really close. I personally like the idea that every race in Tolkien's world is different in this regard. They came to be each in their own time and conditions, so it is logical to assume their ciltures and sex lives were different. While there is little question regarding Hobbits and Men (which are the most like our own Western ways, just different subcultures), Elves and Dwarves are more unknown so more interesting.

There was an opinion somewhere higher that Elves might have a "higher" form of sex - and I think that might be so. They are creatures so spiritual that the union of their souls might be much more intimate than that of their bodies. You know Star Wars and the Jedi? That if two Jedi form a couple, they can literally sense the other's emotions, feelings, and tune in. I imagine something similar happening with elves. Accirding to Tolkien, elves never remarry. If they have lost their mate, they just go on and live longing to be with them again, until they die of grief and meet in Mandos' Halls. If the bond one shares with their partner is this profound, I could not picture en elf even contemplating easing their loneliness with another. Moreover, I remember reading that elves never needed a ring or any other kind of a token to show to the others so that they would know that the individual in question is married. They just seem to know it, when somebody is.

Dwarves, however, should be entirely different. They come from the land itself, they were made in the large underground caverns. Forges, fires, caves, mines... A whole lot of bodies, companionship, and closeness. So, I imagine them to be like a tight-knit clan, with a lot of body contact and intimacy (not necessarily all sexual), not shy of touching, hugging, punching and other displays of affection - and a very equal society regarding gender differences. Liberal, tolerant, affectionate - but as long as one is a part of the clan and works for the good of it. In this kind of societies, sexual life can either be also very liberal (the children being raised more by the clan than their respective parents) - or quite the opposite: marital bonds are strictly defined and sex is only permittable within those bonds. Which of these two is true for Tolkien's dwarves... I honestly don't know! However, knowing Tolkien's Catholic background, the second s most probably true

*Nif
(yeah, I know I'm VERY late to join this discussion, but I just wanted to say, hehe)

We still remember, we who dwell In this far land, beneath the trees The starlight on the Western seas...

In the Realm of Ulmo

Evil~Shieldmaiden

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on: January 20, 2015 05:52

Nifredil said: Accirding[sic] to Tolkien, elves never remarry. If they have lost their mate, they just go on and live longing to be with them again, until they die of grief and meet in Mandos' Halls.

Tolkien did make one exception: Finwë was married twice.

His first wife Míriel Serindë bore him one son, the famed Fëanor. She died soon after because the birth took so much out of her that she said she would never return to life. This left Finwë in the position of being on his own, not through his own choice, for eternity, a situation that had never occurred before. Because of this, Finwë was permitted to remarry.

His second wife Indis bore him two sons: Fingolfin and Finarfin, and two daughters: Findis and Írimë.

Nifredil

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on: January 21, 2015 04:15

Yes, you are right, I remembered this once I had posted. Still, this is but one exception.

We still remember, we who dwell In this far land, beneath the trees The starlight on the Western seas...

In the Realm of Ulmo

Hanasian

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on: April 06, 2015 12:40

Nifredil said: As a Catholic, Tolkien saw the world as a battle between the Good and the Evil. The same goes to morality issues. We usually percieve the Evil to be lacking of the moral standards that we see necessary as a society to function, this is why evil ceatures tend to kill without any regard for life, or regrets, they abuse, they rape, they torure... All of it can be found in Tolkien's works, and this evil needs to be fought against.

Since we're using allegories, It could be said that with the evils (abuse, rape, torture) the Catholic Church had subjected so many to over the years, decades, centuries, millenna, that he could see this evil amongst the good as well (Saruman for instance, representing one who is supposedly good, but fell into evil). As Tolkien touched on the aforementioned re-marriage issue, he touches on incest with Turin and Nienor, and touches on abuse, torture and possibly rape of Celebrian when she was captured. He touches on marriage separation with Aldarion and Erendis, and touches on infatuation being mistaken for love in the case of Eowyn and Aragorn. But overwhelmingly he presents true love in Arwen and Aragorn, and several other couples of Middle Earth,

findemaxam48

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on: April 06, 2015 03:19

I read somewhere-in fact, in the intro to my copy of the Sil- that Tolkien resented allegory in any form. Is it possible that his beliefs somehow made it to the page subconsciously, as stated by Arveleg above?

We were one in the same, running like moths to the flame. You'd hang on every word I'd say, but now they only ricochet.

Gandolorin

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on: April 06, 2015 07:30

findemaxam48 said:I read somewhere-in fact, in the intro to my copy of the Sil- that Tolkien resented allegory in any form. Is it possible that his beliefs somehow made it to the page subconsciously, as stated by Arveleg above?

Oh, oh, he's back!

Intro to LoTR starting with the 1966 edition, and his term was "cordially dislike". And as Shippey points out (somewhere), what JRRT certainly disliked was sloppy allegory. A tight allegory needs to have "equals" in it - A=B, C=D etc., not sloppy "could kinda be sorta like, maybe ...". Shippey considers "Smith of Wootton Major" and "Leaf by Niggle" to be such tight allegories, to which I would agree (though there are some dissenting voices regarding "Smith ..." ).

I consider JRRT's following statement (in the paragraph about allegory) to be his most telling statement on the topic:
"I think that many confuse 'applicability' with 'allegory'; but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author." The latter is something that annoyed him in several works of his long-time friend C.S.Lewis, even the explicitly Christian tone annoyed him (though this may carry tinges of the Roman Catholic vs. Ulster Protestant antipathy in it).

JRRT made a point of eliminating any overt mention of what we would consider part of religions today: special buildings, clergy, holy days, rites; the only faint expression of rites is Faramir and his men looking through the waterfall of Henneth Annûn towards the setting sun in the west. Those who rightly point to his orthodox Roman Catholicism seem often to forget his intense love of the pagan north and north-west of western Europe. I have felt for a while that JRRT is the to us known counterpart of the unknown poet of Beowulf, and LoTR is our age's Beowulf. At the very least, both take pains to depict, within the obviously pagan time of their stories, the virtuous pagans who behaved far better that the great mass of supposed "Christians" of latter days.

As to what may have started the discussion in this thread (I did not read page 1, as page 2 already went back to 2005!): JRRT and C.S. Lewis were confronted, in the 1920s and 1930s, with some students who affected vaguely homosexual outwards attitudes (without necessarily actually being homosexual, just for the shock value perhaps - seems to be a quaint term to me in our times - shock value?)

JRRT and C.S. Lewis thought little of these students (and in terms of academic achievement they seem to have generally been right), and may have purposely dressed in and old-fashioned and even sloppy (C.S.L.) fashion to make their statement.

Parts of the western world have come to accept homosexuality as something natural - as in it occurs in the animal kingdom frequently enough, and was observed by "naturalists" at least as far back as the 19th century - but then that was in England the Victorian Age (and in the rest of Europe practically the same thing under other names). I here use animal kingdom in its 19th century form - excluding us.

It doesn't.

And for a last point, all the depravity that our age (not the least the industry producing commercials, much more so movies & Co.) has to offer was in ME too - just several hundred miles east or south of Arnor and Gondor, realms ruled by Sauron as a "god". Just think of what Sauron manged to do in Numenor just in a few decades. So for fanfics going slash or even further - it's all there in ME; just didn't get into the histories of JRRT, so there are no limits to your imaginations for fanfics. (Though you need to change sites for much that I can imagine, never mind what you can imagine!)

[Edited on 04/06/2015 by Gandolorin]

Hanasian

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on: April 06, 2015 02:30

findemaxam48 said:I read somewhere-in fact, in the intro to my copy of the Sil- that Tolkien resented allegory in any form. Is it possible that his beliefs somehow made it to the page subconsciously, as stated by Arveleg above?

I didn't exactly state that, but just noted that "it could be said"

Gandolorin said: Oh, oh, he's back!

I never left really. Been sticking to the RP forum for the most part.

It's good to stir up some more debate on these age-old topics.

Or....

One could start various threads with topics like "How many eyebrow hairs do you have?" and such.

findemaxam48

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on: April 07, 2015 01:27

I started to count but then I got distracted by the animated smilies.

I was just wondering, since it seems like, to me as a writer at the least, that the things I try to keep out of my work make it in somehow without me noticing.

I may be stirring up trouble with this question, but what do you all think of slash (same sex)fanfiction that has Tolkien's characters and such?

We were one in the same, running like moths to the flame. You'd hang on every word I'd say, but now they only ricochet.

Gandolorin

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on: April 07, 2015 03:34

Arveleg said:

Gandolorin said: Oh, oh, he's back!

I never left really. Been sticking to the RP forum for the most part.

Oopsie.

In E~S's smiley thread, she gives the ... ah ... blabbey? in my previous post my name. So I actually used it as a warning that I would be running off at the mouth (or keyboard) excessively again.

Looking at previous posts, there are obviously many contenders who could claim that pontificating smiley for their own!

@ Maxie: For canon characters, my feeling is that slash is out of the question. But as I mentioned above, if you write about the Easterlings or Haradrim in their own countries - where they considered Sauron to be their god-king - I would not consider it alien to their character. Off-stage baddies generally, which would include Black Númenóreans in Númenor and ME during Sauron's stay in Númenor at the latest. There were human sacrifices in Númenor at the end of his stay, and it doesn't really get worse than that.

[Edited on 04/07/2015 by Gandolorin]
Having finally read all of the posts in this thread, I suddenly feel like taking up Arveleg's comment "It's good to stir up some more debate on these age-old topics."

There was a mention somewhere that the Elves have few children. I would personally be hard-put to quantify such a statement, as we only know about a few families. But taking it as a hypothesis, this would make Fëanor with his seven sons highly unusual, and Finarfin with his five children not far behind. From a population standpoint, having few children makes sense for the Elves, because under normal circumstances - better make that circumstances in Aman - each birth increases the population. (JRRT had rejected the "reincarnation in their children" bit with Fear wandering from one Hroa to the next via a detour through the Halls of Mandos. )

And then to the Dwarves. Aulë most certainly missed something about the Children of Eru when he created the Dwarves. With a 2-to-1 ratio of males to females, they go against the practically universal 50-50 ratio we know about - well, in land-living vertebrates, at least.

[Edited on 04/07/2015 by Gandolorin]

findemaxam48

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on: April 07, 2015 05:52

I agree with Gando as far as the slash goes. Especially with characters who are stated to me married in canon- Aragorn...Sam...Faramir...it is so odd to see such non-canon romantic relationships portrayed in a writing.

Very true about the birthrate of Elves. None of them are dying, at least under natural circumstances, so it makes sense to have a limit.

We were one in the same, running like moths to the flame. You'd hang on every word I'd say, but now they only ricochet.

Hanasian

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on: April 07, 2015 09:34

Gandolorin said:[ Oopsie. In E~S's smiley thread, she gives the ... ah ... blabbey? in my previous post my name. So I actually used it as a warning that I would be running off at the mouth (or keyboard) excessively again.

Looking at previous posts, there are obviously many contenders who could claim that pontificating smiley for their own!

Yes, running off at the mouth-keyboard is so fun!

findemaxam48 said: I may be stirring up trouble with this question, but what do you all think of slash (same sex)fanfiction that has Tolkien's characters and such?

I never got into 'slash', and never saw the reason it could be as popular as it is. I have turned out a few 'het' Tolkien fanfics over the years. Usually it is a soap operaish treatment of some of the tales. Aragorn Arwen Eowyn Faramir was prime material for this.

cirdaneth

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RE: Sex, Morality and LotR--keep
on: April 08, 2015 05:50

I'm quoting my earlier post here as it seems appropriate and chimes with Riv's original post for this topic.

cirdaneth said:I think that's what Neithan meant. (The post was two years ago). There is attraction, and longing and long waits for fulfilment.

We also need to remember that in 1954 unmarried people, especially women, were not supposed to know about the sexual act. We knew something was being hidden from us. We tried to guess. We imagined some outrageous scenarios! and if we were told the truth by schoolfriends from the farms, it was so embarrassing that we didn't believe it.

So intent was the church and government to protect us from temptation that all books, plays, films etc were censored. Copies of books like Tropic of Capricorn, Moll Flanders and Fanny Hill were smuggled into the country from France and woe betide you if customs found one in your luggage. People murmered slyly about DH Lawrence and Lady Chatterly.

Then in 1964, Lady Chatterly's Lover was published here in the UK, in defiance of the censors and the publisher was sued. The censors lost their case and the world was changed. This was ten years after the publication of LotR, so you can imagine how careful Tolkien had to be.

[Edited on 04/09/2015 by cirdaneth]

ItarildeSirfalas

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on: April 12, 2015 04:21

I think I may have to read the older posts in this thread as it caught my eye and intrigued me. I'm not well-versed enough to have a full say/opinion, but I can imagine the only race who may indulge in pre-marital sex were Men, or just possibly the Elves in their earlier years

. But again, I'm not versed enough to have a proper say.

@Maxie: My view doesn't just apply to LotR or Tolkien, it applies to all fandoms, I just don't understand the appeal of slash fanfics, especially for main canon characters! But I suppose there are some people out there who enjoy them!

[Edited on 04/12/2015 by ItarildeSirfalas]

"Yet such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere." ~ Elrond â™¥

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