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Figwit
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Post ROTK Sequence by Sequence #3: Arwen / Rivendell
on: March 15, 2004 12:11
Caps can be found here for this sequence - go Rivka!

Points of interest (well, you can say what you want of course ):
- Did you like this way of getting Arwen into the story? Would you have done it differently?
- How about Elrond - mean big monster? Caring daddy?
- Did you like this way of re-introducing Narsil?
- What's missing here?

And, as ever: which part did you like best?
Arwen seeing Eldarion in the woods
44% (2)
Arwen returnin to her father and getting angry at him
7% (4)
the conversation between father and daughter about the future
8% (5)
Arwen fading
3% (2)
Arwen looking at Narsil and quoting the poem
18% (1)
the re-forging of the Shards
13% (8)
none of it - I don't like Arwen
7% (4)
Casterino
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Post RE: ROTK Sequence by Sequence #3: Arwen / Rivendell
on: March 15, 2004 04:27
Firstly Figwit, I love these discuss the sequence threads.

Okay, I chose Arwen seeing Eldarion, though it was a lot more difficult to choose this time round, not because I didn't like any of it, but because this whole sequence tended to blend into one 'let's include Arwen in the story' and nothing really stood out for me. This isn't necessarily a bad thing. Firstly we've had the great Smeagol and Deagol opening. The arrival at Isengard and the Palanatir scene all dramatic but it's still the build up to the big battles and Frodo and Sam's journey into Mordor. So the pace of this sequence is nice in that it continues to reintroduce us into the characters and the plot without catapulting into a continued high tense drama from one moment to the next. It's a chance for the audience to catch it's breath and once again shows us the grace, the beauty and the slightly omnipitent/all knowing nature of the elves...the real heart of much of the plot, particularly in FOTR.
And I also like Arwen in the films, and I think Liv Tyler does a good job. I love her first scenes in FOTR with the Nazgul and the love story crossing time and space, the romantic almost 'all in the mind' plot in TTT.
In this sequence we get another glimpse of the future, and that's why I chose that part with Aragorn and their son as the best bit. In the TTT and this part of the film we're allowed to see some of what happens after the war and anguish ends. In the book and in the film you always want to know what happens to the characters next and while I know a lot of fans wanted more the appendices in the film (perticularly Gimli and Legolas setting sail for the undying lands together-as did I), we do get a few moments of the happiness and joy...and sadness too that the characters endure once the darkness of Sauron has gone from the world.
Visually too, it's a beautiful and scenic moment in the woods, and then in Rivendell, the almost shimmering glow of the elves and their home, the caught in time beauty still in Middle Earth, contrasting the rough nature of Edoras, the grandness of Minas Tirith and the dark horror or Mordor. It's another part of the world everyone is fighting for.
Personally I would have cut the sequence between Arwen and Elrond a little bit just for a few brief moments of the scenes we all wanted (The Houses of Healing/The Mouth of Sauron) as we dealt with her grief and sadness for herself and Aragorn and Elrond's fear for his daughter in TTT. And we could have had the reforging of Narsil in the FOTR (like the book), but it is still a nice turning point with Elrond deciding to throw his efforts into helping Aragorn and the race of men...just like sending Haldir and the elves to aid Theoden at Helm's Deep in TTT. And I guess the way Peter Jackson emphasised Aragorn was that he did not want anything to do with the throne of Gondor or leading men until at the very earliest Boromir's death at the end of FOTR. In that sense the reforging of Narsil at this point is the perfect place for this to happen, as only now after Helm's Deep and the war with Sauron about to come to Minas Tirith that Aragorn can accept his destiny.
snowystingray
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Post RE: ROTK Sequence by Sequence #3: Arwen / Rivendell
on: March 15, 2004 12:11
It was a lot more difficult to choose this time round, not because I didn't like any of it, but because this whole sequence tended to blend into one 'let's include Arwen in the story' and nothing really stood out for me.


I seem to have had the same problem... I really like all of these sequences as a whole story line, but it is hard to pick out my favourite from them. However, I ended up coming down on the side of Arwen reciting the poem in from of the shards of Narsil; it was beautiful and slightly mysterious and definitely shivers-up-your-spine worthy in terms of anticipatory excitement. Liv is absolutely stunning as Arwen, and I think it really came out in that sequence.

However, a lot has to be said for Elrond in these scenes as well. I personally love the interaction between him and his daughter. I think that is one of the most touching parts of the story, and although movie!Elrond is quite a bit grumpier and harsher than book!Elrond, I think the filmmakers did a nice job of showing how much he cared about Arwen and how this was just as hard for him as it was for her. Big hugs to the elf with the eyebrows! ::glomps::
glory2glorfindel
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Post RE: ROTK Sequence by Sequence #3: Arwen / Rivendell
on: March 15, 2004 12:53
I thought this scene was unbelievably beautiful; the grief at the ending of the Elves, the grief of leaving a home, of seeing your daughter leave home (elrond POV)...
I thought Elrond was really the "caring daddy" not the "monster"... He wanted to keep his daughter with him, he wanted to keep his daughter alive. He had lost so many people he loved, and he wanted to keep his daughter with him. He did it, or tried to, the only way he really could have. He never really lied other than the lie of omission. So much pain is seen... so much.. hurting... *sobs*
agh... can't say anything that hasn't been said, so yeah... i agree! now I think i'll go cry.. thank you very much...
Legolas{Greenleaf}
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Post RE: ROTK Sequence by Sequence #3: Arwen / Rivendell
on: March 15, 2004 01:25
Arwen reciting the poem, hands down. When I heard it the first time, I nearly jumped out of my seat in excitement. The music, the images on the screen, and her voice reciting it fit so perfectly together. PJ did an excellent job on this sequence.

Peace~
Celebrianna
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Post RE: ROTK Sequence by Sequence #3: Arwen / Rivendell
on: March 15, 2004 02:49
This was a bit hard for me to decide on. I chose Arwen seeing her son. I love that entire scene including the return to Rivendell. What is most profound about that scene too is the airy silence of Rivendell. Already we begin to see the fading of the elves. Rivendell looks empty though it still possesses beauty, we begin to see just how much the beauty would begin to fade when Elrond diminishes into the West. The scenery is very different to that when the Fellowship members were there. Its all so sad.

Now to the feelings of Elrond. I love that scene where Arwen tells him to reforge the sword and he looks at her and walks away. :cry: Its so sad because here he is losing his most beloved daughter to mortality just as he did with his brother Elros so many Ages ago. All these things entered my mind while I saw that scene. After he realizes the life of the Eldar is leaving her, the expression on his face was priceless. He really seemed tormented. He begins to understand that he would now be parted from his daughter beyond the end of the world. And even then it is said that Illuvator's plan for the elves are not known even to the Valar. Therefore, there is a chance that they might never meet again.:cry:

Okay. So I love the scene in TTT too. I thought Elrond did a wonderful job of predicting the future because everytime I see it I bawl. Not cry, bawl. Without fail, by the end of that scene I always thought that Arwen should have left Middle-earth since in Valinor her love for Aragorn would supposeably be only a memory. When Elrond told her that there would be no comfort to ease the pain of Aragorn's passing it was so sad because I knew that he spoke the truth. :cry: I thought Liv was great too. When he called her name and she gasped and the tears were falling I was crushed. "There is nothing for you here, only death," he said. I thought, oh my goodness girl, take the ship. Valinor is a beautiful place and she might be able to find peace there. Besides, she would be with her family and all the legendary heroes from the Sil. I really think that scene was great.

I really hated the Arwen is fading bit in ROTK. It was very hard for me to swallow. Everytime I see it in the theatre I wince. I must say that Elrond gave an excellent performane when he presented Anduril to Aragorn. I love the way he advised him and the pain on his face when he spoke about Arwen.

Ok....hopefully that all made some sense.
Newra
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Post RE: ROTK Sequence by Sequence #3: Arwen / Rivendell
on: March 16, 2004 09:53
A lot of sense!

The bits I especially loved were Arwen seeing Eldarion, and Arwen reciting the poem. Those things just gave you goosebumps!! PJ does SUCH a good job of putting things in that will make people who read the books just smile, gasp, or recite along with the actor. (Example: Elrond and Aragorn saying Gilraen's poem!!! That was so cool!!)

I love how the movie emphasized the confict between Arwen, Aragorn, and Elrond, because you really don't see that in the book until the appendicies. And Elrond's speech in TTT is just about identical to the description of what will happen to Arwen from the appendicies.

But, yes, I was flipping out when Arwen started saying the poem. I was muttering it under my breath and my sister thought I was NUTS....

~Newra
Celebrianna
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Post RE: ROTK Sequence by Sequence #3: Arwen / Rivendell
on: March 16, 2004 04:07
Okay. I know I said I hated the Arwen is fading bit in ROTK, so I tried to rationalize it. I figure that her life can definitely be tied to the fate of the ring since she has already basically given up her immortality for Aragorn. I refer to the part where she says her choice is made and there is no ship that can bare her hence. Also, the part where Elrond says the life of the Eldar is leaving you.

So here is my theory: In the beginning when Isildur possessed the one ring, Gandalf read what he wrote about the ring. Isildur wrote that "all that followed in his bloodline fate will be tied to the ring." So, Aragorn's fate is tied to the ring and it must also follow that Arwen's fate is now tied to the one ring since her destiny now becomes intertwined with Aragorn's through her choice to become mortal for him. Its believable since the Valar sees all things and probably was aware of her irrevocable choice before even she realized it.

What do you think?
Newra
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Post RE: ROTK Sequence by Sequence #3: Arwen / Rivendell
on: March 17, 2004 05:32
Oh, wow, that's insightful! A very good idea, I think you may be right. Hmm...

~Newra
Eruantalincë
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Post RE: ROTK Sequence by Sequence #3: Arwen / Rivendell
on: March 27, 2004 03:17
- Did you like this way of getting Arwen into the story? Would you have done it differently?
I liked it and I would not have done it differently. It was a good timing to put her in before the shards of Narsil were re-forged. I love her voice over with the poem.
- How about Elrond - mean big monster? Caring daddy?
I felt só sorry for him. Though he forsaw this possible future and tried the best thing he could to keep her safe from it, she had made his choice. He was about to loose his beloved daughter, whom he loved for ages.
- Did you like this way of re-introducing Narsil?
Yes. It had to be put in somewhere, and this was as good as everywhere else, I think.
- What's missing here?
Maybe some background information, but it would be too long for the movie.

I like the "fading" bit. For Elves are practically immortal, and they have lived ages in relatively peace, there are very few who died. Arwen is not really dying yet, but she is loosing that immortality. I think that fading is just a synonim (spelled correct?) for that. The pain and grief is só clear on Elrond's face and I think it is really hard to have such intense feelings, without the capability to express them the way "mortals" can. It was great:cry:.

My choice was Arwen / shards of Narsil. My heart stood still for a second when I heard that poem, só impressive.

About the connection Arwen/Ring. Nice idea, but I think it is not very useful. At first, Elendil was a mortal man, not a Vala. And the Valar had foresight, more than Elves had, but they did not know all. The line of Kings had the gift of foresight too, but not so much they could look into the future that far I think.

The "what-if" question is: "what if Arwen rejected mortality"? I suppose it is merely something like: since she chose mortality, she would actually die (instead of fade, go to the Halls of Mandos and reincarnate as Arwen) when Sauron would have his victory
drunken_elf
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Post RE: ROTK Sequence by Sequence #3: Arwen / Rivendell
on: March 27, 2004 11:39
I really liked this sequence, even though the Arwen sequences haven't always been favourites of mine. But by this point in ROTK, I've just been crying at the departure of Pippin and Gandalf, and then this pops up, and I just sort of breathe out; it's like a refreshing change from the tension of the other storylines for a brief moment.

Favourite moment had to be Eldarion. Firstly, it is just beautiful, with the ferns and everything. All of PJ's flashes (forwards and backwards) have been beautiful and very emotional, and this one is no exception. This kid is also very talented, I might add. And of course, FIGWIT! He makes me smile every time.

I love the change from the Rivendell we saw in FOTR, to this beautiful "winter" Rivendell in ROTK. The change is just amazing, and really a lovely touch from PJ and the crew.

The interaction between Elrond and Arwen is lovely. Hugo does a wonderful job, showing his pain and grief, and conflicted desires. Liv does a lovely job as well. The Narsil sequence is breathtaking - the music as Arwen recites the verse, and then as they reforge the sword, is stunning. Just amazing.

As for the Arwen fading twist, I think that it's probably to do with what Celebrianna said, but it could also be to do with Frodo. In the trailer there is a line that Elrond says (which never made it into the theatrical cut of ROTK), "You gave away your life's grace. I cannot protect you anymore." I took this as referring to FOTR, when Arwen is holding Frodo at the Ford and says, "What grace is given me, let it pass to him. Let him be spared. Save him." Could this possibly be why her life is now tied to the fate of the Ring? Or maybe that is too literal an interpretation? Any ideas?

But all in all, lovely scenes.
Luthien_Telperien
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Post RE: ROTK Sequence by Sequence #3: Arwen / Rivendell
on: March 28, 2004 02:47
You missed one on the list -- "Figwit" gets to speak
Celebrianna
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Post RE: ROTK Sequence by Sequence #3: Arwen / Rivendell
on: March 28, 2004 04:26
About the connection Arwen/Ring. Nice idea, but I think it is not very useful. At first, Elendil was a mortal man, not a Vala. And the Valar had foresight, more than Elves had, but they did not know all. The line of Kings had the gift of foresight too, but not so much they could look into the future that far I think.


Eruantalincë, I did not mean that Isildur (not Elendil) was foresighted. I know their people are foresighted to an extent but I meant that he said that the fate of all those who followed in his bloodline will be tied to the ring. I see it as a sort of Oath or a heirloom of the house of Isildur. Call it that. Now here is where the Valar comes in. Perhaps I should have been more clear. Since the children of Elrond had a special choice of immortality from the Valar, they must have known that Arwen had made the decision to cleave to a mortal. The Valar gave to them that irrevocable choice and she made it when choosing Aragorn. They are not powerful like Illuvator but they must have seen it or known it.




[Edited on 29/3/2004 by Celebrianna]
Eruantalincë
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Post RE: ROTK Sequence by Sequence #3: Arwen / Rivendell
on: March 29, 2004 11:35
Celebrianna, I get the point.

Silly me, how could I change Elendil for Isildur:blush:.
Evenstar
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Post RE: ROTK Sequence by Sequence #3: Arwen / Rivendell
on: March 29, 2004 01:56
*randomly joins the thread*



I voted for Arwen reciting the poem. All the way. I mean, I honestly loved the entire sequence - I cried my eyes out when she saw Eldarion in the woods and then saw Aragorn - but when she recites that poem... *shivers* Tolkien had a way with words and Liv Tyler did justice to those words. She gave them a powerful, timeless, ageless, haunting presence with her voice.
Lindelena
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Post RE: ROTK Sequence by Sequence #3: Arwen / Rivendell
on: March 31, 2004 02:40
Oh gee, I don't know if I can pick my favorite Arwen sequence.

The TTT Elrond-trying-to-dissuade-her-from-staying thing was so moving...I was nearly in tears by the end of it. Elrond reminds me so much of my own father, so it really struck close to home.

Arwen seeing Eldarion was, I think, a very important part. It showed Arwen not only as a lover, but as a mother, which is a whole different ballpark, if you ask me. I think Arwen, as well as the viewer, saw her in a whole new light. It was also, might I add, painfully beautiful.

And of course, the whole Narsil-poem thing was excellent. I am enchanted by Liv Tyler's voice, and it really was captivating when she recited it.
Figwit
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Post RE: ROTK Sequence by Sequence #3: Arwen / Rivendell
on: April 07, 2004 02:02
First of all, I don't remember what I voted for. I guess that's just typical for this scene, as Casterino and snowystingray have already said: this entire sequence sort of flows from one scene into another, not marking the separate scenes very clearly – which isn't necessarily a bad thing though. If I'd had to pick one now, I'd take Arwen reciting Aragorn's poem – I'll get back to why that is later.

So, methodically: the first thing we meet is Arwen on the Road. I loved the colouring and lighting in this sequence, combined with the music and the costumes it was just breathtakingly beautiful. The Elves travelling with Arwen reminded me of renaissance marble statutes, because of their grey cloaks and the grading on the colours. For those of you not familiar with this style period: the renaissance sculptors tried to catch a moment of movement in stillness. In the baroque you'll get very broad movements, lots of curls and swirling robes; but in the renaissance the opposite was the norm: very still, very graceful, but not necessarily static. A good sculptor, like Michelangelo or Donatello, could really catch a lot of movement and emotion in one still and calm snapshot.
I just adored this part because it was beautiful. It was also very reminiscent of the scene in FOTR EE where Frodo and Sam see the Elves pass by at night: the same eerie silence, stillness of movement and air of melancholy and sadness were present in that scene.

Then, the vision of Eldarion. That was... inventive.
Personally, I would have wanted Arwen to simply turn away from the road and return to Rivendell, period. I don't believe she needed to see Eldarion, her future; I don't believe she needed that kind of hope. I have a real problem with the fact that Aragorn 'breaks up' with her before he leaves (as we can see in TTT): that's not what Arwen and Aragorn are about. BUT, since PJ chose to handle their relationship in a certain fashion in FOTR and TTT, there was little left for him to do in ROTK and it might have come across as unrealistic if he just had Arwen return or not even depart.
So, because I understand there were no other options I would have liked, I can live with the vision as a plot device.
Cinematographically it was done beautifully, I have to admit: I liked the way the forest gave way to Minas Tirith, and the close-ups of Arwen's face as she realises what the vision really is about. I have to admit I was very very excited about seeing Eldarion too, and he looked a bit like Liv Tyler and Viggo Mortensen – I don't know how they did that, but it was great.

Have to mention Figwit: I rock !

Then, Arwen returns to Rivendell: amazing. Just that one shot of Arwen driving Asfolath up on the road towards the Last Homely House and under the bridge: the lighting, the colouring, the dynamics of that scene combined with the music – perfect. I only shed a few tears during this sequence, and it wasn't here, but that shot (to me) was more impressive than the beacons of Gondor for instance. That might also be because I really felt for Arwen, more than I feel for some other characters (like Faramir for instance). And I had no idea how it was going to end for her, I guess that's how the non-bookies must have felt throughout the entire trilogy and it was a grand feeling. I almost regret having read the books... almost .

I was also pleased to finally see that part where she runs up the stairs and says: 'You have the gift of foresight, what did you see?' That was a beautiful bit. On the whole, I liked most of the conversations with Elrond: they were written out beautifully, and this is the one bit in the whole trilogy where Hugo Weaving as Elrond works for me (I don't like him). I especially liked Arwen's wisdom shining through: she really is the Evenstar of her people.
The Evening star and the Morning Star both are Venus (the planet) appearing in different places at different moments – that's a bit like Lúthien and Arwen: the first appeared at dawn, the second at dusk, but they are so alike in love and strength. In her talk with Elrond, Arwen reminded me of Lúthien so much that I was really stunned.

Arwen fading away, now there's a hard one. I don't know if I like it yet, or not. I like Celebrianna's suggestion about Arwen's fate tying up with Aragorn's, and Aragorn's already being tied to the Ring's – it's a good hypothesis, and there's plenty of book evidence to support it.
I also liked drunken_elf's suggestion about her life's grace being passed on to Frodo, that would be a bit drastic but not completely impossible.
Personally, I thought it referred to her being the Evenstar. It's a bit like Eruantalincë suggested: that it's just in her nature to suffer from Sauron's spreading evil and that she would have suffered even if she hadn't 'become' mortal.
I guess it's also a bit of a conceptual problem: we all have some kind of idea of what happens when Arwen 'forsakes immortality' but how does it work? And how do you put it to screen? So I guess this way makes it a) more dramatic and b) more visual.
While I was writing this, I suddenly thought of something in the Appendixes: Arwen turns away from 'the twilight'. The Evenstar only exists in the twilight, and nowhere else. So she is bound to disappear – PJ just speeds up the process I guess.
Right, I said this was a hard one.

I did like it though, as I already said. I especially liked that moment when Elrond panics and takes hold of her hands (Liv Tyler has really big hands! I never noticed that before), and Arwen replies with 'There is now no ship left that can bear me hence...' (or something to that account). That's the Arwen I know from the books: the determined woman who makes a choice then lives with it without complaining. She's a very grand character, and I'm pleased to see her restored here in ROTK to what she really was in the books.

Moving along: Narsil reforged. One word: WOOOOOOOOOOOOOT! (Yes, my brother taught me that...) I said earlier that I only shed a couple of tears in this sequence, well, this was it: when Arwen says 'Renewed shall be blade that was broken, the crownless again shall be King', I was blown away. That was magnificent. It also made me hope that Arwen would bring Andúril to Aragorn herself, and I really hate that she didn't, but I'll save my little Elrond-Doesn't-Belong-Here rant for when we're discussing that sequence. But I was really pleased with the way it was already introduced in this sequence.

What's missing here? For starters: the part where Arwen reads that book (I want to know what's in it) – could it be that she gives Elrond the idea of sending Aragorn through the Dimholt?
Then, the part on the bridge drunken_elf referred to, with Elrond and Arwen talking about something.
I have the distinct feeling something else is missing too, but I can't quite say what: it feels like this sequence was so cut up into bits and pieces that – though it feels like a whole – you also get a feeling of looking at one of those 'Last episode in Star Trek' things. So I hope a lot is missing .

Lastly, I'd like to comment on a few things others have said before me:


although movie!Elrond is quite a bit grumpier and harsher than book!Elrond, I think the filmmakers did a nice job of showing how much he cared about Arwen and how this was just as hard for him as it was for her.
~ snowystingray


I guess that's exactly why Elrond is so much grumpier in the movie than in the book: because he cares a lot more. Book Elrond was satisfied when he considered the fact that perhaps the fate of Middle-earth would be decided by his daughter's choice, and that made him honour it – as an incentive for Aragorn to put in all his efforts to claim the throne. Movie Elrond on the other hand is a lot less concerned with the 'greater scheme of things' and more of a father, which would make him a more emotional character, easier to relate to.
I don't like it.


"There is nothing for you here, only death," he said. I thought, oh my goodness girl, take the ship. Valinor is a beautiful place and she might be able to find peace there.
~ Celebrianna


That's exactly why I didn't like that part in TTT: it seemed only natural for her to take the ship and sail West. I was so pleased and so relieved when she turned her horse around and went back to Rivendell, because I would have hated for her to be at the Grey Havens and have Aragorn beg her to stay or something incredibly wrong like that.
But very nice phrasing!


I love the change from the Rivendell we saw in FOTR, to this beautiful "winter" Rivendell in ROTK.
~ drunken_elf


I quite agree, it's amazing. It's like a very deep autumn, not winter yet, like November when there's still some of that golden sun. I love the way Rivendell is really mourning the loss of the Elves, it seems drenched in this lost silence. Beautiful.


Arwen seeing Eldarion was, I think, a very important part. It showed Arwen not only as a lover, but as a mother, which is a whole different ballpark, if you ask me.
~ Lindelena


I couldn't agree more: the shift from Arwen as a girl we can all relate to, to Arwen as a woman, a mother, was necessary to flesh her out and make her choice more realistic.
Until that moment, we'd only seen Arwen as someone's girlfriend (she acted too young and too chaste to be presented as a lover yet, imho) and especially someone's daughter.
The suggestion of Arwen as a mother (and Aragorn as a father), indeed places her in a whole new light: she has a whole potential life that she is passing out on, a potential place she'll never take.
Very good remark, Lindelena, something I never would have thought of myself. Thanks.
Celebrianna
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Post RE: ROTK Sequence by Sequence #3: Arwen / Rivendell
on: April 07, 2004 03:35
I couldn't agree more: the shift from Arwen as a girl we can all relate to, to Arwen as a woman, a mother, was necessary to flesh her out and make her choice more realistic.
Until that moment, we'd only seen Arwen as someone's girlfriend (she acted too young and too chaste to be presented as a lover yet, imho) and especially someone's daughter.
- Figwit


I totally agree with you. The TTT change in plot was so inconsistent with my views of Arwen. I have no problem with the portrayal of her emotional choice but in some way they should have made her seem stronger in TTT.

In FOTR, we saw the strong, encouraging Arwen. I loved when she approached Aragorn saying, "Why do you fear the past?...." The entire conversation that followed gave us a glimpse of Arwen the 2000 year old. I loved it.

But what did you think of her initial reaction at the coronation? When he father had to encourage her to walk forward to Aragorn. I am ambivilent about it because I guess with the plot it was justifiable.
Figwit
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Post RE: ROTK Sequence by Sequence #3: Arwen / Rivendell
on: April 07, 2004 04:35
But what did you think of her initial reaction at the coronation? When he father had to encourage her to walk forward to Aragorn. I am ambivilent about it because I guess with the plot it was justifiable.


It was so girlish! I guess they wanted to show that she was weaker now that she'd become mortal, or something to that extent, but that really wasn't Arwen. I did like her laughter afterwards, her joy - but I didn't like her shyness.

I agree with you that the best Arwen was the one encouraging Aragorn: You are Isildur's heir, not Isildur himself... She was perfect in that scene. I find some of that back in the talks she has with Elrond, where she is a lot wiser than her father, accepting the consequences of her actions and choices. One of those consequences is her death, but another one is Eldarion - new life.
Celebrianna
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Post RE: ROTK Sequence by Sequence #3: Arwen / Rivendell
on: April 07, 2004 06:19
It was so girlish! I guess they wanted to show that she was weaker now that she'd become mortal, or something to that extent, but that really wasn't Arwen. I did like her laughter afterwards, her joy - but I didn't like her shyness.


Figwit, I think they were trying to show her emotion of doubt since Aragorn had broken it off with her. Its almost like she is not sure if he would still be please to see her. I guess that is why he looked at her like, "Whats the matter?" Remember when he tilted her chin and then she smiled? I guess that is probably what they were trying to portray.

I loved the laugh too. Arwen's story seemed so unfinished in ROTK. I hope on the extended version we see more of her. (I know, much to the chagrin of all those who dislike her).

[Edited on 7/4/2004 by Celebrianna]
Figwit
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Post RE: ROTK Sequence by Sequence #3: Arwen / Rivendell
on: April 07, 2004 09:30
Yes, you're right of course. I just find it sad that she needs such encouragement from Aragorn, she shouldn't.

But oh well: more Arwen! Definitely!
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Post RE: ROTK Sequence by Sequence #3: Arwen / Rivendell
on: April 12, 2004 01:59
In her talk with Elrond, Arwen reminded me of Lúthien so much that I was really stunned.


You know, I find it really interesting that in this scene Arwen is in blue...the fabric color that is typically associated with Luthien. I hope this was intentional on Ngila Dickson's part. Because it works beautifully as a symbolic gesture that Arwen is making the choice of Luthien.
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Post RE: ROTK Sequence by Sequence #3: Arwen / Rivendell
on: April 12, 2004 09:13
Wow! I hadn't even thought of that Alataire! Good thinking though, makes perfect sense.
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Post RE: ROTK Sequence by Sequence #3: Arwen / Rivendell
on: July 28, 2005 12:42
I just wrote the Books vs. Movies article about this scene, and I have to say, I changed my thoughts about some shifts and changes. If anyone is interested, you can find it here.
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Post RE: ROTK Sequence by Sequence #3: Arwen / Rivendell
on: July 28, 2005 03:27


You know, I find it really interesting that in this scene Arwen is in blue...the fabric color that is typically associated with Luthien. I hope this was intentional on Ngila Dickson's part. Because it works beautifully as a symbolic gesture that Arwen is making the choice of Luthien.


Wow, That's cool!
Alatariel1013
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Post RE: ROTK Sequence by Sequence #3: Arwen / Rivendell
on: July 29, 2005 11:45
Did I like this way of getting Arwen into the story? Big fat no. In fact, althought I love Arwen and Liv Tyler is a great actress, I don't like the scenes with Arwen, simply because they never happened in the book. (I'm loyal to that sort of thing) I must admit, they're all beautiful scenes, but that doesn't mean I like them. The same goes for the Narsil deal. Aragorn was supposed to have gotten it/her/him/? way before ROTK, so that part....no. As before, it's a really good scene, and were it not for the fact that this never happened in the movie, I'd love it to death.
What's missing here? Arwen's grey eyes. Aragorn's banner that she was supposed to be making him. Geez......
End rant. Sorry about that. Got a little carried away. I love the movies a whole lot, but I have to say, the Arwen parts don't agree with me.
Whew. That felt good.
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Post RE: ROTK Sequence by Sequence #3: Arwen / Rivendell
on: July 30, 2005 07:24
Okay, Alatariel, in response to your post I'm going to post the article I wrote about this sequence for the Books vs. Movies and linked to in my last post .

The Last Journey of Arwen Undómiel
Arwen's sequence in 'The Return of the King' kicks off with her going to the Grey Havens. She doesn't seem particularly happy about it, either. This would only be natural as, in the books, Arwen never considers going to the Grey Havens and leaving Middle-earth. Her leaving is, according to Boyens and Walsh, the natural result of Aragorn letting her go. The script writers wondered about her motivation to stay, with her kin and especially Elrond her father leaving Middle-earth forgood to live in Valinor. Finally, they decided there was really nothing keeping her there; and came up with the idea of letting Arwen have vision of the future: of Aragorn in Minas Tirith with their son, Eldarion, whom she recognises as her son because he wears the Evenstar.
This vision of a child makes Arwen turn around; which provides the most adorable cameo of the entire movie: Figwit, the Elf extra idolised by fans, stands by the side of the road and watches her leave. Peter Jackson, who calls the character "Fidwick" on the audio commentary track for 'The Return of the King', admits that this one was put in just for the fans.

Obviously, this scene doesn't occur in the books, and Eldarion isn't mentioned until the Appendixes. However, there is one scene pointing forward to the idea of children and hope for Arwen and Aragorn being intertwined, and that is in 6.V. The Steward and the King: Gandalf takes Aragorn up the slopes of Mount Mindolluin and talks to him about his future responsibilities. Aragorn then, despairingly, says: 'But I shall die, for I am a moral man, and though being what I am and of the race of the West unmingled, I shall have life far longer than other men, yet that is but a little while; and when those who are now in the wombs of women are born and have grown old, I too shall grow old. And who then shall govern Gondor and those who look at this City as to their queen, if my desire be not granted? The Tree in the Court of the Fountain is still withered and barren. When shall I see a sign that it will ever be otherwise?' [6.V.]
Aragorn is talking about the White Tree of Gondor, brought to Middle-earth by Isildur after the fall of Númenor. In Númenor, during the last days of the Men of Westernesse, a prophecy was made concerning this White Tree: Tar-Palantir, who unlike the Kings before him tried to bring Númenor back in the good graces of the Valar, tended the White Tree again and prophesied, saying that when the White Tree perished, then also would the line of the Kings come to its end. [S.IV.]

What Aragorn is looking for, is a sign that he and Arwen will be blessed with an heir, and after Aragorn expresses his concern, Gandalf says: 'Turn your face from the green world, and look where all seems barren and cold!' [6.V.] And Aragorn notices that among the snow, something is growing: a scion of the White Tree.
Obviously, this is akin to what Arwen does in this scene of 'The Return of the King': to her mind's eye her future in Middle-earth is barren and cold, and that is wy is leaving for the green world of Valinor. But looking into this barren future, she sees something is growing there: Eldarion, the child that she and Aragorn could have.
Although I doubt Boyens and Walsh did it on purpose, their solution for the problem 'Where do we stash Arwen?' is a very graceful one, and surprisingly close to what Tolkien himself wrote.

The subsequent scene shows us Arwen riding home, to Rivendell, where she confronts her father. She accuses him of lying to her, and not mentioning the hope she saw now in her vision of Eldarion. Elrond obviously despairs, realising that Arwen will now remain in Middle-earth with Aragorn, but Arwen tries to comfort him: Some things are certain. If I leave him now, I will regret it forever.
Basically, here, Arwen is telling Elrond that even if her life in Middle-earth ends up in misery, she will be happier having tried than giving up too soon.
Again, this scene doesn't occur in the book. A nice nodd though, is that Rivendell looks even more autumny here than it did in 'The Fellowship of the Ring': the yellow and gold of the indian summer are now replaced by the deep reds of late autumn, right before the leaves start falling from the trees. This is a sign that the end is near for the Elves, and a lovely way of portraying the melancholly of the Elves as well as the shadow hanging over Elrond.

The Re-forging of Narsil
Another huge change in the storyline concerns Aragorn's sword, Narsil. In 'The Fellowship of the Ring' we were already introduced to it, when Boromir throws it on the ground. But, contrary to the events in the book, it doesn't leave Rivendell along with the Fellowship: Narsil, the broken heirloom, is left behind. On the audio commentary, Jackson, Walsh and Boyens explain that they wanted Narsil to be returned to Aragorn at a more crucial point in the story. The build-up for that moment occurs here, in Arwen's scenes: after she has made it clear to her father that she has no intention of leaving Middle-earth and Aragorn, she says: 'It is time.' We then see her walk up to Narsil, dressed in her travelling cloak, as her voice-over recites part the poem Bilbo wrote for his friend Strider in the books: From the ashes a fire shall be woken. A light from the shadows shall spring. Renewed shall be blade that was broken. The crownless again shall be king.

Again, this scene is not in the books, where Narsil is reforged right before the Fellowship leaves Rivendell. However, there is again a parallel in the books.
When Aragorn encounters the Dúnedain on the road to Dunharrow, he asks Halbarad what he is carrying. Halbarad answers 'It is a gift that I bring you from the Lady of Rivendell. She wrought it in secret, and long was the making. But she also sends word to you. 'The days now are short. Either our hope cometh, or all hopes end. Therefore I send thee what I have made for thee. Fare well, Elfstone!' '
And Aragorn said: 'Now I know what you bear.' [5.II.]
The gift is of course the standard of Gondor that Arwen made for him, and that is placed as a sign for the return of the King on the prow of the Corsairs ships. It is a double sign: first and foremost it is proof that Arwen believes Aragorn will claim lordship over Gondor and Arnor, and that their love will overcome the odds. It is also a sign for Aragorn that Arwen deems it time for him to make his claim.
The same could be said of Arwen's suggestion in the movie, to re-forge the sword: it is a token that she once again believes that Aragorn will save the day; and also a sign to Aragorn that it is time. When Elrond hands over Andúril to Aragorn in Dunharrow, he will use similar words: The man who can wield the power of this sword can summon to him an army more deadly than any that walks this earth. Put aside the Ranger. Become who you were born to be.

Originally, Arwen was meant to have the sword reforged herself and bring it to Aragorn in Helm's Deep, where they would fight side by side. This plot was abandoned though, when it turned out that a fighting Arwen didn't come across on screen, and Liv Tyler asked Boyens and Walsh to restore Arwen to her book character a bit more.

Interesting to not is that in the final cut of 'The Return of the King' we can only catch a glimpse of the book Arwen is reading (you can see a good version of it here). However, various pictures (like this one here) and comments by Boyens, Walsh and Jackson on the audio commentary track for 'The Return of the King' suggest that originally there would be a longer scene with Arwen picking the book from Elrond's Library, and talking about the Paths of the Dead. This reinforces the idea of Arwen forcing Elrond to push Aragorn into accepting his heritage and claiming lordship over the city and Gondor.


The Fading of the Evenstar
(Arwen sits on a bed as if exhausted and drops the book that was in her hands. Elrond picks it up.)
Elrond: (feels her hands and lowers them down in front of her) Your hands are cold. The life of the Eldar is leaving you.
Arwen: This was my choice. Ada, whether by your will or not, there is no ship now that can bear me hence.


Nothing is said in the book about Arwen becoming vulnerable to the threat of Sauron, or weakening. Tolkien writes that Arwen became as a mortal woman, yet the only thing he writes about her physical appearance is that after Aragorn's death the light of her eyes was quenched, and it seemed to her people that she had become cold and grey as nightfall in winter that comes without a star. However, he also writes that it was not her lot to die until all that she had gained was lost. [Appendix A (v)]

In the movies, however, Arwen's decision to become mortal results in making her very ill. Boyens and Walsh figured that, since Arwen was one of the last born of her people, she would also be most vulnerable to Sauron's evil. Without the added protection of immortality, she would succumb to this evil, it would weaken her.
Whether this is in keeping with Tolkien's mythology or not, it does provide both Elrond and Aragorn with an extra drive to defeat Sauron.

[Edited on 30/7/2005 by Figwit]
Alatariel1013
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Post RE: ROTK Sequence by Sequence #3: Arwen / Rivendell
on: July 31, 2005 04:59
Was that supposed to change my mind?
You wrote that? Very well written, Figwit. But even so, most paragraphs contain the phrase; this doesn't happen in the books' and that's why I'm not thrilled with these scenes. I just don't understand why they couldn't have put what was supposed to happen in there, which would have been just as good, and would have made fans of the book, like me, happy. I really wish that they had stayed more true to the book with Arwen and Aragorn, because I particularly love their story in the book, and Tolkien did too. Why else would he have a whole section in the Appendixes devoted to them? But, different people, different opinions, and that is just mine.
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Post RE: ROTK Sequence by Sequence #3: Arwen / Rivendell
on: July 31, 2005 05:00
By the way, Figwit, love your avatar.
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Post RE: ROTK Sequence by Sequence #3: Arwen / Rivendell
on: July 31, 2005 08:57
This is probably one of my favorite scenes in the movie. It was done so beautifully.

I like the way they brought Arwen into the movie. She is such a wonderful character, and bringing her romance with Aragorn into the movie (since it was only in the appendix in the book) was a great idea. So since PJ brought her into the movies more, they needed some way to bring her in to this one.

I think Elrond was only reacting to what was going on. He loved Arwen and the thought of losing her was just so horrible. He didn't want her to forsake the ways of their people. No parent would want that to happen to their child.

I thought this was an interesting way of bringing in Narsil. Yes, it was different from the books, but I liked it. It was neat to see how they made Aragorn seem much more like a ranger in the first two movies to sort of lure us in to the end. In the books he seems a lot more kingly in FotR and TTT than he did in the movies.

What is missing? Some of it seems a bit confusing. I really didn't get how her fate was connected to the ring. So a bit more explaining was needed, IMO.

I voted for the part when Arwen sees Eldarion in the woods. That scene was done so beautifully. She finally realizes in that scene where her heart truly lies. She can't leave her one true love.
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Post RE: ROTK Sequence by Sequence #3: Arwen / Rivendell
on: July 31, 2005 09:50
Was that supposed to change my mind?
~ Alatariel1013


Lol, no, I'm not really in the business of changing minds. I just wanted to shamelessly plug my article
Eh, not really: I just wanted to point out the references and links.

What we try to do with the Books vs. Movies-thing, is see what was altered from book to movie; and obviously for this scene that was - mmm - everything.
But I did like all the references I found - for instance: Andúril taking the symbolical place of the standard.

I obviously prefer the books, always and ever (except in the case of Boromir and Aragorn ), but sometimes the movie helps me understand parts of the book better - because of the changes, things suddenly become clear. Like the link between Eldarion and the scion of Nimloth for instance - before, I never thought much about the significance about that part in the book, but writing this article made me realise that it's not just "The Long Wait of Arwen Evenstar", but also the long wait of Aragorn.
And maybe the movie shows that more clearly than the book... Don't know.


He loved Arwen and the thought of losing her was just so horrible. He didn't want her to forsake the ways of their people. No parent would want that to happen to their child.
~ Woodlandelfgirl87


I also loved that link: from Elrond doing everything to spare his daughter; to Arwen doing everything to save a child that hasn't even been born yet.
It brings the 'parent'-theme back into the movie, I thought they sort of missed that one a bit in the two previous instalments.
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Post RE: ROTK Sequence by Sequence #3: Arwen / Rivendell
on: July 31, 2005 11:01
Poking my head in. If PJ had stuck with the way Arwen appeared in the books, those who did not read them would not have understood her place in Aragorn's life. Tolkien gave very little time to explore Arwen's character and really didn't go into their relationship until the Appendices. Yes, I would have loved to have seen Glorfindel and the twins (who took the banner to Aragorn), BUT, those characters did not have the impact on the story (IMHO) that Arwen did. I would have liked to have seen Arwen's trek to Lorien to try and see her future in her grandmother's scrying mirror (another cut scene). I think Figwit's analysis hits the nail on the head. Changes had to be made in order for the non-bookies to see much of what drove Aragorn to take up the mantle of king.

What an awesome discussion folks! Very thought-provoking and civilized.
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Post RE: ROTK Sequence by Sequence #3: Arwen / Rivendell
on: July 31, 2005 11:16
Yes, I would have loved to have seen Glorfindel and the twins (who took the banner to Aragorn), BUT, those characters did not have the impact on the story (IMHO) that Arwen did. I would have liked to have seen Arwen's trek to Lorien to try and see her future in her grandmother's scrying mirror (another cut scene).


Oh, and I missed Halbarad. I would have just *loved* to see him and the Dúnedain, coming to the aid of their king. That would have been great. But yeah, I think a non-bookie audience did benefit from the changes that were made.

And I completely agree about the deleted scenes in Lórien, I really want to see those. Maybe something for the 25th Anniversary Edition ?
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Post RE: ROTK Sequence by Sequence #3: Arwen / Rivendell
on: August 01, 2005 05:51
I love Arwen going back and facing her father. It shows she has a mind of her own and that she can think for herself. But it also means that to a point she's lost trust in her father. After all, he told her that there was no hope for her and Aragorn and that she was staying for a lost causes essintually, and yet, she has a vision of seeing her son with Aragorn. Now, why swould she have seen that is her father had sent her off because she had no hope left. How much would that piss you off? Exactly. So her going back and confronting her father shows that she was a female in love, and that she believes in the marriage so much that she is willing to go against her father.
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Post RE: ROTK Sequence by Sequence #3: Arwen / Rivendell
on: August 02, 2005 04:36
If PJ had stuck with the way Arwen appeared in the books, those who did not read them would not have understood her place in Aragorn's life.


I can think of a bunch of ways that they could have put Arwen and Aragorn's story into the movie without changing so much. They could have kept the bridge scene, and Arwen could have had Elrond reforge the sword right then and there and Aragorn could have taken it with him. THey could have had the part in Rivendell where Frodo looks at Arwen, and if they had to have Elrond come to Aragorn in ROTK, they could have had him bring him the banner instead of Anduril. They didn't have to do what they did.
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