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PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post Is etiquette dead?
on: March 27, 2004 04:31
I'm a wee bit older than many of our members and I'm starting to feel that our standards of conduct have fallen over the past several decades. Many things that I now do naturally, and learned when I was younger, seem to be not even considered by younger folk.
for example;
I generally don't curse in mixed company - or in the company of people I do not know well. ( I work at a blue-colar job and the expletives do fly at work - but I turn them off when I leave for the day)
I automatically open the door for a lady
I give up my seat on the bus to a lady or to anyone elderly
When I accompany a woman along the sidewalk I automatically walk on the side closest to the road.
I take off my hat indoors
When driving in heavy traffic I'll stop and let someone merge into my lane rather than make them wait.

Am I part of a dying breed - or are these "polite things to do" still part of what young people are taught and are these traits still appreciated ?


[Edited on 27/3/2004 by PotbellyHairyfoot]
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: March 27, 2004 05:15
Hi,

I'm not sure, but I may be *just* a little older than you. One of the Elders, not that age is of any consequence.

I feel, sadly, that I have to agree with you, but I don't think its necessarily just young people. Women's Lib has a lot to answer for. Nobody asked me did I want men not to open doors for me or not give up their seat! It never made me feel weak or inadequate, it made me feel special. My dad always changed to the outside when we were out walking, made me feel soooo protected.

I cringe sometimes when I hear foul language being used anywhere and everywhere, especially females. Don't get me wrong, I can swear with the best of them, but only in extreme situations. Now it seems just part of life.

Perhaps, its just the pace of the world today, but everyone seems so much more aggressive now. I wish we could return to a time when the world was slower.

There are still some young people who are courteous, but in the minority. Makes me wonder when it all went haywire.

Having said all I've said, I trust no-one will be offended.
Sindaeririel
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: March 27, 2004 05:16
Well, I'm still pretty young (16), and I try to show some good manners. I get up when I shake someone's hand and don't remain sitting, I offer my seat to older people in the bus and if I'm invited for dinner/whatever somewhere I ask if I can help with the dishes afterwards, etc. I don't think etiquette is completely lost, although there really is less than some decades ago. I was never "taught" these things, no one told me "If you see elder people in the bus you have to offer them your seat", it was just something I do without much thinking about it, not because I have to but well...I just do it because I think it's good and it goes without much saying. Of course there are people (mostly younger ones) that don't care about manners and good behaviour, but there certainly are many who know how to behave correctly as well.
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: March 27, 2004 05:43
Hi Sindae

As you say, you weren't taught the things you do. A lot of the time, its how parents act that help teach children and young people how to behave. Children follow by example mostly. Like yourself, I don't remember being specifically taught manners or how to behave by my mum and dad, but followed their example. Unfortunately, in today's age peer pressure can affect a lot of youngsters. I used to tell my children to do what they had to do to survive, but to do the right thing whenever they could. They knew how to behave properly when the occasion called for it, and I'm very proud of both of them.

I know it's and old adage, but the '60's' has also a lot to answer for. I tend to think that 'victorian/early 20th century' values began to dwindle as the decade progressed.

It's lovely to know that there are young people who still have values and as throughout history, everything comes round again.
Virdil
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: March 27, 2004 06:03
Well, I can tell you this much. My parents taught me one of those things only, and that was the no cursing in mixed company, though I never cursed in all my 20 years, so I think I'll be ok there.

As for the other things, I do those naturally without even thinking about it. I actually open doors for anyone I see if I'm going the same way (or maybe even if not). I let people go in front of me because it isn't so nice to have to wait when I'm the one waiting. I never actually thought about walking to the roadside with someone as being anything special, I always walk to the outside. My hat always comes off indoors, and I always give up my seat.

I was only taught the one, but I do appreciate all these things, personally. I just find them a proper way to act. It's almost impossible to find anyone my age though who would agree with me on that, or who would agree and actually do anything to change how they act.
Nauma
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: March 27, 2004 07:18
I don't think it's that everyone's being rude so much as that standards of acceptable behavior have changed. It's not necessarily a bad thing, I think. Frankly, having men hold doors open for me simply because I am female is a little irritating, and I'm glad it's dying out. I can forgive it from older men who grew up doing it, but I'd just as soon they not. I don't mind letting the men sit facing out at the table or walk on the side furthest from the street, and the reason I don't mind is because it's an equality thing. I understand there are times when distinctions by gender are necessary, but things like that just seem to reinforce the message that I, as a weak and lowly female, am dependent on men to protect me, and it is annoying. Where I am, everyone holds doors for everyone, and I like it that way. Maybe this is just typically American of me, but I'm really very fond of this idea of equality.

It seems to me that, in America at least, society isn't growing rude so much as more informal. Everyone is equally informal. Everyone calls everyone by first names (although it's still a little weird for me with professors or doctors), and I don't mind everyone calling me by my first name. I like that I can call my president Bush or even Dubya without being terribly rude (well, not to his face, obviously). I enjoy being able to call my congressman Mike, even to his face, even without being acquainted with him. And it doesn't bother me terribly that the custom of standing to show respect for things is slowly dying out. It's the kind of ceremonial gesture that's being purged, and I don't think we'd be much worse off without it.

All that doesn't mean courtesy and etiquette is dead, though. People still say thank you and excuse me; they hold doors and give up bus seats; they'll help out where they're needed. It's still not good manners to abuse the cashier in the grocery. It's definitely not good manners to cut people off, or curse in the presence of children or people you don't know well. Etiquette hasn't died. It's just changed, evolved, as social customs are wont to do.
Gildor-Inglorion
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: March 27, 2004 07:21
Am I part of a dying breed - or are these "polite things to do" still part of what young people are taught and are these traits still appreciated ?


Part of a dying breed unfortunately (In my humble opinion). I'm 18 but I really respect these qualities in people and try my best to emulate them. Perhaps it is because I respect so many older people I don't know. Unfortunately, I really don't see any of this among my peers most anytime other than, say, Prom, which is really too bad. It seems to be an inconvenience these days rather than a desireable thing.

EDIT:

, and the reason I don't mind is because it's an equality thing. I understand there are times when distinctions by gender are necessary, but things like that just seem to reinforce the message that I, as a weak and lowly female, am dependent on men to protect me, and it is annoying.


Just wanted to comment on this. I personally don't see this as demonstrating that women are weak. Rather it shows that we as males have respect for women - something that seems to be degrading rather quickly in society. From personal experience I can say that these things are not done out of a desire to "dominate" but rather respect and reverence. Maybe that's just me though..

[Edited on 3/27/2004 by Gildor-Inglorion]
Nauma
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: March 27, 2004 07:47
I personally don't see this as demonstrating that women are weak. Rather it shows that we as males have respect for women - something that seems to be degrading rather quickly in society. From personal experience I can say that these things are not done out of a desire to "dominate" but rather respect and reverence. Maybe that's just me though..


I'm sure men don't think they're doing it as a way to make women feel inferior. What I take issue with is that the whole thing sprang out of the attitude that women are delicate porcelain dolls that must be treated in special ways. The message from the man may be "I think you're special", or it may just be "My mother always taught me to do this", but it reflects that overall societal message that women must be treated differently because of their gender. That attitude is pervasive and subtle, but it's still very much present, and it drives me crazy to be subject to it.

And so far as men losing respect for women- I don't think it's limited to women. It's everyone showing less respect to everyone, which might go more the heart of the matter. You can have sloppy manners and still have respect, but maybe the opposite is not true.
scots56
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: March 27, 2004 07:49
I think respect and responsibility go hand in hand. As a teacher, I see that a lot of parents aren't teaching responsibility to their children. They say that they are, but it's like make children be responsible, just not mine. I am fortunate enough to work in a small school where that isn't as much of a problem, but I do work WITH larger schools where it is. I also have siblings who work in large schools that say the same thing.

If you have responsibility, you have respect. I see it every day. As for opening doors, I open doors for people, my husband opens doors for people, my son opens doors for people, and my 86 year old blind mother opens doors for people. It's respect for others that creates a feeling of responsibility for others.

Now, having said that, I wouldn't want to go back to the dark ages where women were locked away. It's just that we've seemed to swing the pendulum way to the other extreme. I wish there was some way to have a happy medium.

It seems to me that, in America at least, society isn't growing rude so much as more informal


I don't know about informal. We were at a shopping center the other day when a teenage girl was swearing every other word while spitting on the floor. Now, I KNOW that's an extreme example, but boy those kind of kids stand out and are remembered. That's not informal to me. That's rude. I also can swear with the best of them, just in very defined circumstances. It's not for "on the town" casual language.

Respect = Responsibility. Too bad it's the people who DON'T subsribe to this that stand out in our lives.
Morion
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: March 27, 2004 08:48
Forgive me if I offend somenone here. Men holding doors and walking next to the street, that has nothing to do with women being weak and men having to protect them. It was simply being polite. But even from the beginnings of history, men were and still are called to higher physical standards. We were and are the ones that are to support the family, be the head of the household, and so on and so forth. But that doesn't mean we are the dominent sex or anything. Women were just as vital, but they had their place and we had ours.
As for the women being weak. Like I said, we are called to higher physical standards then females.

Ever seen a Army PT test, the females standards are lower for everything. And I don't see any females crying out for equality. Take the running for example. If the enemy is shooting at you, the bullets aren't gonna go any slower for females than for the males. They're gonna have to run just as fast as us. I used this example with another female. She was using almost the same thing about men having to protect women and all that. When I used this illustration she said, "Well thats because you are supposed to be off fighting all the wars not us." and I said, "what about all that you were just saying about us protecting you and that you're not weak and defenseless." Well she got all angry at me and told me flat out, "well thats not the same thing." And that ended that conversation cause she then got up and left.
Aowyn
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: March 27, 2004 10:14
I think respect and responsibility go hand in hand. As a teacher, I see that a lot of parents aren't teaching responsibility to their children. Respect = Responsibility. Too bad it's the people who DON'T subsribe to this that stand out in our lives.


Hear Hear....Good manners start at home. I'm in the same situation as you. I really think sometimes I hold a higher standard of manners in my classroom than is held at home--sadly.

I'm also wondering when teenagers are going to catch on to the fact that swearing in public (along with smoking and trying to look older, lol) doesn't make them appear older to me, it makes them appear YOUNGER and very immature. Probably never, I guess.

I generally hold the door for anyone these days--but I have to admit if they don't say thank you or acknowledge me in some way I am bound to just let it close on them
SuziDragonlady
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: March 27, 2004 10:58
I live in a small city and I don't know if it is only so extreme here or if I over-react, but it seems that I belong to the last generation (I'm 20) which had learned how to behave, I remeber the class below our one (at an establishment of higher education), they were interested in defenitely nothing (except drinking and smoking maybe), and they were snobbish and greet nobody, I got allways a fit of rage when I have to talk to one of them because of some school-internal things, it was allways like I'm talking with the wall.
But that was harmles when I look at others, we had some very neat neighbours once (ugh, I hate to remeber them), they had two children and the oldest girl which was 16 had a child too, if they opened the door to their flat the floor smelt like a ashtray mixed with sweat, they did not pay the rent often and played loud music until 4:00 AM, and normally you greet everybody here from your tenement, they did not, and the best thing was, one of their other children (I think it was 8 or so) badmouthed an old lady, who I knew very well, only because she told the girl she should not stop the elevator for so long becasue others want to use it too, so young and no manners! When I was 8 I had not the heart to badmouth about others, I had not even thought of that! I must stop with writing about that famaily, or I get very angry, oh just something, they managed it that we move out!
And if you pass the elementary school you can see the pupils smoke and scream dirty words (really extreme ones for such young people).
I'm really pessimistic relating the generation-problems. (I allways say to my friend after such discussions... The world will end in chaos...)

Well, what can I do against that?

See ya!
Suzi
tuttleturtle
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: March 27, 2004 11:04
I always act polite to people and respect them even if they don't desearve it (like the people who wouldn't talk to my friend unless they were swaring at her) but I think even if etiquette isn't dying, chivery (sp?) definately is anyway. I know people who still act this way but they aren't common, in fact the only boy in my high school that does is a strict mormon.
note to teenage girls: Chivery doesn't mean that a boy likes you (This misunderstanding caused a huge problem in people I know)

I'm also wondering when teenagers are going to catch on to the fact that swearing in public (along with smoking and trying to look older, lol) doesn't make them appear older to me, it makes them appear YOUNGER and very immature. Probably never, I guess.


I agree, this SHOULD happen, but probably won't. There are some teenagers that relize I think, but those are the minority (I have never swore, and I know a few others like that), in my school, over 60% of the 9th grade smoke marijuana, less in the 10th grade where I am, but still, these people should relise)
Mithelril
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: March 27, 2004 11:12
I want it clear that women are ONLY weaker than men in terms of brute strength. They pass us in stamina, endurance, pain threshhold, and are genetically superior from birth. We're just bigger & more muscular on the average. I DO hold doors for ladies (when they aren't automatic) & I've allowed the lady to get the next door in those buildings with the airlock of double doors. No big deal. I prefer to walk nearer traffic when I'm with a lady or younger person. I'm protective, NOT demeaning!

The most upsetting trend in my opinion is the language. I am SICK of hearing the F word sprinkling every sentence! Customers come in talking like that. In MY store they can clean it up or leave. I don't need that kind of business!
This generation is VERY disrespectful & irresponsible. Too many, I believe, have no respect FOR THEMSELVES! How can they behave & follow etiquette when the laws mean nothing to them? They don't like themselves & take it out on everyone as well as themselves (with the language, drinking, smoking, drug use and sex). Sad. Is it because their parents have not required them to be responsible for themselves? Held them accountable for their actions? If my daughter (who's 24) behaved like this... I can't even imagine it of her.
The media is feeding this disrespect, too. TV & movies. We're undermining ourselves.

However, we have young members here who have restored my faith in the future generations. But they are so few. I'm gladdened to see a journal now & then of GOOD KIDS, who haven't been kissing everyone they date or don't give in to the peer pressure. BRAVO!!!!
Fíriel
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: March 27, 2004 02:03
Ah. I feel somewhat guilty posting in this thread, for I swear quite a bit, although I never do so in public. I despise those that do, because obviously it's disrespectful and uncouth -- as a student, I always get mad when I see other students pushing into canteen lines or being refused service, who then start swearing their mouths off, 'F-this, F-that!'. It's also the same when students talk back to teachers -- sometimes, the students might have a valid point, but they're not going to get it across in a high-and-mighty rage and a potty mouth.

I'm sad to admit it, but I do think that ettiquette might be slipping a bit. Informality is all well and good, but there's a difference between that and abusing parents in a theatre just because those parents asked them (reasonably) to stop swearing. Perhaps there is less consideration now, but certainly this generation is more outspoken than previous ones. I like that aspect. However, what irks me is that there are more eloquent ways to express one's anger, and the very crudity that many people use annoys me. Though, when you've got politicians that express their disapproval in pejorative terms (Aussies, Mark Latham and Paul Keating comes to mind), I suppose that's a reflection on society.

I'm a bit surprised at the negative portrayal painted by the media about us teenagers, as if we're on a binge of sex, drugs, and general all-and-out wildness. I'm not suggesting that these things don't happen, and that a lot of people don't experiment. It is true, that our generation is growing more informal, but there are still common-sense people out there. They're just less profilic. Although I haven't done so myself, I have friends who have experimented and are in serious relationships, but I also expect to see them leading great lives one day.

I don't mind the passing of these values such as holding the door open for a lady, because around here, a lot of us will pretty much hold doors open for anybody -- it should be a courtesy that extends to anybody. I'll give way to people on footpaths. I'll give elderly people bus seats. However, what annoys me pretty quickly at school are actually stairs. It's like having massive traffic congestion, and people will always veer to the right side, and get stuck in 'traffic' going the opposite way, or girls will pause and start giving greetings in the form of kisses in the middle of the stairway (!), or people will dive, push, or shove through using their bulk or their elbows. I wish there was some sort of established rule or 'ettiquette' for that.
frodo_baggins_of_theShire
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: March 27, 2004 03:08
it's not dead I have proper etiquette my brother who older doesn't I think it depend on what type of ppl.
LinweSingollo
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: March 27, 2004 06:09
Lots of good comments. I'll just add a few of my own:

A lot of bad manners seem to stem from the idea of "personal freedom" and "self-expression". "I'll do what I want to do because I have my rights", sort of thing and "to h*ll what anyone else thinks". I don't think this is limited to a certain age group. My teen-aged nieces and nephews are well-mannered.

I like it when someone hold a door open for me, male or female...it's just plain courteous.

A couple other peeves: whatever happened to the virtue of modesty? Bragging seems to have become a competitive sport. I've actually heard people describe themselves as "awesome". Let ME find out how terrific/wonder/talented you are without the blaring trumpets. I like to unwrap my own packages, thank-you.

Lastly, informality/over-familiarity. I had an insurance salesman (on his 1st and last visit) ask me when I plan to settle down and have children. Excuse me? I don't even know you! Needless to say, I showed him the door.

profanity. The f-word is so tiresome. When I hear someone use a lot of it, I automatically think: low I-Q.
"To the Hobbits. May they outlast the Sarumans and see spring again in the trees." J.R.R. Tolkien
eldir
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: March 28, 2004 03:55
I have been extremely fortunate in that I have been on the receiving end of both chivalry and niceties. When I was in high school, a few years ago, the boys I was in classes with were not only well-mannered and good-natured, but they always showed respect to the girls. I'm not sure about giving up seats for them (I do believe that seats went on very much a first in-best dressed kind of system ) but we had doors opened for us, and they allowed us to go through doors first.

Now, you will never hear me complaining about this kind of behaviour. I adore chivalry. And to those boys here who still adhere to that code (Potbelly, Gildor etc), I applaude you, and beg you not to stop. So many have stopped--and a lot of it has been to do with changing female attitudes. Let me give you an example. My dad is a regular practitioner of courtesy, and one day held the door open for a lady with an armload of groceries. Not ONLY did she glare at him quite meaningfully, but actually told him that he was doing the wrong thing. Luckily, he didn't take it too much to heart and he continues to do things like that. But if an early-teenage boy had that kind of experience...what would that do to his confidence? Say goodbye to that well-mannered young man.

The swearing I'm rather two-faced about. I say that I prefer the intelligent, sans-profanity kind of conversation--and I do--but every now and then an odd swearword is comforting. It means (especially if you are an occasional swearer like myself ) that if you slip up (within reason, of course) it's not the end of the world. But the heavy stuff you oft here around the place...very unattractive.

And the over-informality issue...I find the best way to deal with that is give them completely over-the-top, flippant answers. For example, in answer to LinweSingollo's question that was asked of her by that nosy young upstart, you might say something like, "After I've run the country for three terms and visited the moon..." After four or five answers like that, they realise they've overstepped the mark. But you're right, the informality is getting to almost rude proportions. And telemarketers are big offenders!

The perception of younger people is sometimes disturbing. For instance, you hear about all of these young drunks etc that hold all night drinking parties. I know it goes on, but I myself did not have a real, true, proper drink until I was about 19--a year after it is legal here. I did not attend those parties. And I have friends that did the same. We were responsible...and proudly so. It's tiresome being plastered with a very detrimental brush when you're a good girl!

I think I'll shut up now...I've gone and done a Reg Reagan and ranted my head off. I've said very little with an awful lot of words...
sweetoffee14
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: March 28, 2004 05:29
I'm only 14 and I try my best all the time to be polite to others even though most think i'm just mucking about and are gonna do something horrible to them, but you can't exactly blame them if you know people my age.

I always open the door for others, say thank you, smile at people I pass in the street (well if they don't look like they'll bite my head off for it), pick things up for others if they have their hands full etc.
It makes me feel better knowing that i've helped someone, even if it is in a small way.
TheLadyArwen
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: March 28, 2004 12:36
It all depends on how you're brought up. Everything PbHf mentioned is how my brother and I were raised, but not everyone is. A lot of parents aren't around to watch over their kids and make sure they have proper etiqette. I sometimes really wonder if some people on this planet know what the word means. My aunt said herself that she doesn't have time to watch over my cousins. :dizzy: So it's not my cousins faults if they don't know what's proper and what's not. I still remember one of them going into my grandparents house with a hat on for Christmas Eve. He kept it on throughout dinner. *rolls eyes* And no one said a word to him. Now, if my brother did that someone would notice.

Elbereth339
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: March 28, 2004 02:05

Well, I havent read all of these posts because i'm sleepy, but here's what i think. I myself am quite young, younger than anyone i've met on this site, and I do all the stuff i was taught to do. I say please and thank you and get the door for people, but i went to a friends house and her folks had a different idea about what was proper manners. So I was doing all the stuff i had been brought up to do, but it was different than what they were used to. Also, my folks are very polite. When we go out to eat my dad pulls out my moms chair, but one time they went somewhere with more people people their age, i forget where because i wasn't allowed to go, anyways, they came home and were talking about how no one else did the stuff that they did. I dont think it's all how old you are but also where you were brought up. I duno, just my thoughts
Wulf_Sternhammer
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: March 28, 2004 02:06
Hi all.
I don't believe etiquette is dead, but it has taken a backseat over the years. I myself still open and hold doors, not just for women and the elderly but for anyone. I will also give up my seat on public transport to anyone who appears to need it more than me, I offer it first and if they don't accept it thats fine too.
As for swearing, I do that as well, I actually believe they are only words and therefore only have what power we give them. For that reason, I don't swear in company of those that I don't know or whom I do know and who don't like swearing.I do tend to use the F word as well as many others, but there is one that if you ever hear me using it, you know I mean business. I reserve it for extremes. That is the power I give that word.
The main problem seems to be one of respect, or more acurately, a lack of it.The common courteous behaviour of years gone by was tied in with people having more respect for others. It seems that people are so hung up on their rights but so many forget their responsibilities, which leads to a lack of accountability for their actions.
I believe modern western society is largly to blame. It teaches that we must succeed, that we must become highly competitive in order to do so, and that we must sacrafice much to make the the almighty dollar. The examples we see are 'Big Businesses' that engage in unethical behaviour, and Governments that do the same. With our supposed leaders behaving in unethical ways, how can we expect any better from our youth, or indeed from any age group.
I could go on and take this into a much bigger issue, but this is not the place and I know it will cause controvesy and anger, which is not my aim.
My apologies if I have offended anyone,




Live and love
Wulf.
jessamyn
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: March 28, 2004 07:54
I just got to weigh in on this one. I definitely think you learn by example. My kids learned early on that being courteous and polite to people was not an option. They swear, I swear, but only occassionally and never in the presence of people that I know it would offend. The F word - well, sometimes, but only when I'm extremely angry and it definitely becomes a power word.

I work in the movie business. Where competitiveness, manipulation and back-stabbing can sometimes become the norm, unfortunately. I think also that a lot of young people watch movies and take on the persona of a particular character. They seem to think its cool to act like that person up on the screen. Much as I love my work, and I now work for a great company, I really think, as a whole, that we have a lot to answer for. We have been very irresponsible in putting up some of the images and so-called role models that we have.

On feminisim: We women really stab ourselves in the back sometimes. My youngest son, when he was about 14 offered his seat on a downtown bus to a very pregnant older women. She turned round to him and said, "What do you think I am, a cripple." She then proceeded to swear at him and really tell him off, until another women very politely told her to, "Shut-up!" Totally embarrassing for my son, but thankfully he is still polite, still offering his seat to people (men as well). His remark about the whole incident was, "Man, she has one big problem." I think sometimes we definitely can be responsible for the way we are treated.
Jemima
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: March 28, 2004 08:10
Manners and etiquette do seem to be dying, but they are not dead until selfishness totally takes over. Showing good manners means showing others you don't think you are more important than they are. It means showing respect and honor to all people, no matter what position they hold in life. I teach my children manners and they (including the teenage boys) practice them until good manners and hospitality become automatic to them. Everyone should require themselves to practice good manners because children watch everyone around them, even those who don't have "leadership" roles. the most important leaders are parents who have the awesome job of teaching their children the right way to act towards others.
As for swearing - what gives swear words their "power" anyway? It is their ability to shock, offend, or disgust people.
All people, no matter who they are, are born with a dignity of life and no one should have to hear profanity nor should they speak it. Profanity degrades the hearer and the speaker as well. Let's treat each other with love and respect and have the courage to have good manners.
killjoy
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: March 29, 2004 02:10
Everyone should require themselves to practice good manners because children watch everyone around them, even those who don't have "leadership" roles. the most important leaders are parents who have the awesome job of teaching their children the right way to act towards others.
Well said, Jemima I'm still a youngster (20) myself, but I think of encouraging good manners as a top priority when it comes to helping kids develop their behaviour. I work in childcare, and we instill simple manners such as saying please and thankyou (or in the case of the really little ones, "peas" and "ta" ) from as young as 1.5 years old. (e.g. saying "ta" when given food at mealtimes). In the older group (3.5 - 4), the children talk about good manners evey day during group time, from greetings ("good morning, I'm very well thankyou"), to saying sorry and hugging someone they've hurt, to even remembering to say "thankyou, I like it very much!" when given presents. What is so delightful about this is that we constantly get feedback from parents saying how wonderfully polite their kids are, and how they even tell their own parents off if THEY neglect their manners!

So I agree that it all comes down to how children are taught to behave in the first place. Once you learn your manners, you never forget!
Gildor-Inglorion
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: March 29, 2004 06:07
I work in the movie business. Where competitiveness, manipulation and back-stabbing can sometimes become the norm, unfortunately.


Can become? . Its depressing how corrupt the movie industry can be. What part of the industry do you work in?

Profanity degrades the hearer and the speaker as well.


I completely agree.
Jemima
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: March 29, 2004 07:20
We need more teachers like you, Killjoy, who are willing to teach kids to be selfless instead of selfish. :heart:
LinweSingollo
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: March 29, 2004 07:40

And the over-informality issue...I find the best way to deal with that is give them completely over-the-top, flippant answers. For example, in answer to LinweSingollo's question that was asked of her by that nosy young upstart, you might say something like, "After I've run the country for three terms and visited the moon..." After four or five answers like that, they realise they've overstepped the mark.




Thanks for the creative suggestion, Eldir! I'll keep it mind for the next time (and I'm sure there will be a next time). However, it wasn't a "young upstart". It was an older man.
"To the Hobbits. May they outlast the Sarumans and see spring again in the trees." J.R.R. Tolkien
Este
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: March 30, 2004 12:33
Sadly, I think it is, as far as I can see here where I live: people are nervous and in a big hurry to go who-knows-where, keep yelling and pushing other people and everybody`s forgotten about polite words. I think that the stress of modern life and bad manners quite often go together, so I`m not really surprised by the lack etiquette that I see.
And as for me...well, compared to the young people around me, I consider myself to be quite polite. I`m calm, never push my way anywhere, say ˝please˝ and ˝thank you˝ all the time, swear quite rarely (and when I do,it`s for a purpose and I don`t so it in public)...and I`m trying to improve (my weak point is giving up my seat in the bus, so I`m working on that).

This generation is VERY disrespectful & irresponsible. Too many, I believe, have no respect FOR THEMSELVES! How can they behave & follow etiquette when the laws mean nothing to them? They don't like themselves & take it out on everyone as well as themselves (with the language, drinking, smoking, drug use and sex). Sad.


I totally agree! I`m 15, and I see lots of that around me...many good people I`ve known since I was a kid have gone the wrong way (drugs, booze...) and I hardly know them anymore. It`s all very sad . I don`t judge anyone, but for me, it`s much more fun to go for a long walk and have a nice conversation with someone than get drunk in a club. Pity there are not many people who agree with me
eldir
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: March 30, 2004 02:52

Thanks for the creative suggestion, Eldir! I'll keep it mind for the next time (and I'm sure there will be a next time). However, it wasn't a "young upstart". It was an older man.


Very well, very well. An old upstart, then. They can be just as much fun to bamboozle.
jessamyn
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: March 31, 2004 05:03

Can become? . Its depressing how corrupt the movie industry can be. What part of the industry do you work in?

I work in the art department, specifically set design. I've also done a lot of set organization and coordination. Don't get me wrong. While I think this industry has a lot of people trying to "work" their way to the top. It also has some of the most generous and kind people that I have ever met working in it. I think its like most big business these days. Only this one is more "in your face" than most.

Profanity degrades the hearer and the speaker as well.

I totally agree. Whenever I swear or use that "power" word. It's usually only when I am angry at myself and need the outlet. Which is, thank goodness, fairly rare. I would never use to degrade or intimidate others. You not only show no respect for them, but no respect for yourself either.

What does give a word power? Probably the ability to shock or provoke a reaction. I find (sometimes) that not reacting and not responding is the best way to deal with it. Ignore it, don't add fuel to the fire and sometimes it just burns right out. I'd be interested to know how other people deal with this.
CarolP
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: April 02, 2004 04:46
When I'm in a room with people who are swearing, I cringe every time they swear. It's doubly worse when women say the "f-word". I wonder if they realize how bad they sound?
When I was growing up, we were taught to respect our elders, and to be respectful of others. Hopefully I'm teaching my children the same thing. My husband leads by example. He opens the car door for me, etc.

I work at a fast food place, and you wouldn't believe the way myself and the other workers are treated at times. It's like we don't deserve respect because of where we work and what kind of job we do. It's very sad. People are just so stressed out and in such a hurry that they can't take the time to think about how they treat other people.
glory2glorfindel
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: April 02, 2004 08:18
On the matter of swearing: I don't see why f*** and s*** and all these other words that we censor are actually considered obscene. I actually had a very long... well, more like an hour long... but still, I had a discussion on this matter with some of my friends, and we agreed that it's an expression and for some reason our culture has decided that either actual sex, the real meaning of f***, or actual... fecal matter, s***, is obscene, and therefore words that we use to express them are obscene. Of course, the other, more common usage of swear words is as an intensive, to add feeling to something you say. Some of the time it's anger, or excitement, or truly any feeling very strong, and culturally, we use f*** and s*** and c*** and all these other words to express these feelings. Now, call me disrespectful, insolent, or whatever, but personally, I don't think we should censor words that express strong feelings or natural bodily functions-- sex or... how should I phrase this... the expellance of waste from our bodies. For some, unknown reason, we seem to have made these things "bad things" and things that should be avoided and words that express them ought to be censored. Personally, I use "bad" language when either it should be used, in literal meanings (discussion: "say, if you were describing a pen of billy goats, saying 'A f***ing pen of billy goats' would be really accurate) or when they might be used as intensives. I don't have a "potty mouth" as people sometimes say... well, I might, but in my view, such a thing doesn't really exist, so obviously I couldn't have something that doesn't exist... it's just a form of expression that our society has deemed inappropriate, because they refer to things we have deemed inappropriate. Sex or "fecal matter" is not a bad thing, really, and I find it... should I say, curious? strange? odd? inexplicable?... that we should think that words that describe these are "bad" or that express strong emotions should be grouped together as "profanity"... when they don't say anything bad, what makes them bad? is feeling strongly now considered "bad"? I'm fourteen years old, and female, by the way.
As to the other stuff: I would hold a door for someone behind me, male or female (since when does a person's gender decide whether someone else should be "respectful" of them?) I don't wear hats or walk with people, so none of that applies to me...
If I were to get into the gender issue, I would say that women are sometimes physically weaker, yes... why does that make any difference at all if we should be more respectful to them? I think someone should be respected for their mental capacity, if anything, and not their age, or gender. Perhaps for their influence... I don't think something tangible should have effect on something intangible, something we generally call "respect". I don't think someone should be protected (which is what the whole "walk nearer the street" thing is about") because they are female, just as a man shouldn't walk closer to the street because he is a man.
Oh, and just so you know; a summer camp exists in my city dealing precisely with etiquette. MAJOR extreme etiquette. To the point where the girls HAVE to wear full length skirts, boys have to stand, take off their hats, and half-bow when girls walk by, they learn to ball-room dance (okay, not especially relevant...) and basically they live in the eighteenth century for three weeks. *shudder*
Isafjordur
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: April 03, 2004 12:30

The main problem seems to be one of respect, or more acurately, a lack of it.The common courteous behaviour of years gone by was tied in with people having more respect for others. It seems that people are so hung up on their rights but so many forget their responsibilities, which leads to a lack of accountability for their actions.



This to me sums it all up right here. One thing I think really is missing as a part of education (from both parents and schools) is Civics. I am too young to have done this, but I understand that as part of education before the 1970s youngsters were taught to take an active role in their community and in helping out in charities, volunteerism, etc. There was also a big focus on how people should conduct themselves around others- common courtesy. Then, I guess, the whole "Me generation" came along, and this was all seen as too authoritarian. Instead we have been taught that we should do as we please and it is all about us doing what it takes to make ourselves happy, not about us doing our part to make sure our community is a good place to live.

I have actually met a lot of nice teenagers. One thing I note with them is that they are very actively involved in social organizations and civic groups and have interesting hobbies.


Also, culture has a lot to do with it. I am originally from a farm town near the Missouri/Illinois border. Until recently, I have always lived in small college towns in Illinois, Missouri, Wisconsin and Nebraska. Generally people of all ages in these towns have been very polite and reasonable to deal with. Now I live in Baltimore (or, more aptly Baltimordor) It took me a long time to get used to how aggressive, crude and backstabbing some people can be here. And how so many people swear and fly into attack mode at the drop of a hat, whether a middle-aged cab driver yells insults at me and refuses to take me as a passenger because I happen to only need a short ride from the airport instead of a high fare to Washington DC, or teenagers throw eggs on my car and knock off the mirrors because it simply happens to be black in color (good for eggs, I guess) and parked on the street, or strangers on the street yell X-rated comments at me simply because I am a young woman therefore worthy of being insulted.

I attribute a lot of this to the general East Coast attitude of "Get Him First Before He Gets You." Maybe it is due to the highly competitve nature of the area and a materialistic attitude because you need to have a lot of money to live in such an expensive area. Also, the large population makes it easy to be anonymous and to get away with being nasty to others. I also do not see the same level of volunteerism and participation in organizations that I did in the Great Plains.

Don´t get me wrong, there are many, many nice people who live in this area, but they are mixed in with so many rude people that you always have to be on your guard with everyone, at first.

The other comment I have in this long winded e-mail is that I like from reading others' posts here that many people do have some good courtesies. It is nice, too, that people open the doors or give seats to anyone who needs it. I admit I am flattered by guys who open doors for me- to me it has always been a sign of respect, not of weakness. It is always nice to be acknowledged- and I admit I like opening the doors for the guys, too.

falather
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: April 03, 2004 11:14
I'm still pretty young (only 17) but I was always brought up to respect people and be kind to others. In school, I see a lot of disrespect and just general rudeness from others, and it always made me sad. I've always felt that we are all in the same boat, really, ans the only thing that we have is each other. So to hurt one person is like hurting everyone, if you know what I mean. And sometimes it seems like no one cares anymore.

But I've also seen some amazing things happen in life, and I think that if it really came down to it, everyone would pull together and we would see that people really do care. For example, a few days before school started this year a girl from my school was killed in an auto accident. The principal had us all sit for a moment of silence when we got back, to remember her. Now, you have to understand that when the teachers at school say "Be quiet," there are quite a few people who just don't think they have to listen and talk or make rude noises or giggle the whole time, and it isn't unusual for them to completely disreguard the announcements. But that day, everyone was silent- really, truly, hear-a-pin-drop silent. Even the freshmen who didn't even know the girl were as quiet as could be. And for a moment, we pulled together, and the respect was there.

Of course, this is just an example, and naturally within ten minutes things were back to normal. But somehow glimpses like that of what could be are enough to keep me believeing that courtesy and etiquette aren't dead. I don't know why people don't display these qualities more often, because the world sure would be nicer if they did, but I can't believe that they're dead altogether.
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