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Jemima
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: April 04, 2004 09:27
Our language is so rich with thousands of adjectives and adverbs to choose from to give our nouns and verbs added emphasis or meaning. We should not have to resort to offensive words that have nothing to do with the subject of our discussions. Yes, our culture has decided some words are offensive and it is our duty to stay away from those words if we wish to respect others. Other cultures have words and actions that they consider offensive, too. When traveling to a foreign country, we need to find out what these words or actions are so we can avoid them and be respectful, kind, and loving. Their customs may not make sense to us, but if we are to make friends and honor others and be honored ourselves, we had better respect the custom. That is true also in our own culture where we interact with the same people every day. The words that come out of our mouths and the actions we are seen doing are a reflection of our attitudes towards those around us and towards ourselves. Do we think we are better than our neighbor or coworker or do we truly love, honor and respect them? It will come out in our words and actions - in our manners. All people, regardless of race, gender, age, intelligence, occupation, etc. should be respected with good manners.
I just saw ROTK again last night and it was so gratifying to see the Hobbits finally treated with respect at Aragorn's coronation after so many had "looked down" on them throughout the story. Aragorn lead by example when he bowed to the Hobbits. What a good example for us all. Here is the king of all Middle Earth, bowing in honor to those who were seen as some as the lowliest of creatures. Remember, Saruman and Sauron didn't even think they were worthy of notice at first? They were wrong, and so are we when we choose to offend rather than respect others with our manners.
Wulf_Sternhammer
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: April 05, 2004 03:49
glory2glorfindel, I agree with a what of what you are saying, that they are only words and therefore it can be considered strange and inexplicable at the power given these compilations of letters. But they do cause many people offence and therefore as a caring and thoughtful person, you should be aware of this. This doesn't mean that you can't use them if you so choose. If you and your group find them acceptable to use then by all means use them within your group. There is nothing wrong with this and it doesn't make you any less worthy a person. Respecting others beliefs that are different to your own is how we can all live in harmony. But it must go both ways. Before 1 group, any group, can expect others to tolerate them and their different views, they must first be prepared to extend the same courteousy to others. If what you do offends others, just refrain from doing it in front of them as much as possible. As long as no one gets hurt, then no harm done.
If we ALL can learn to be more tolerant and to accept others oppinions that differ from ours, then we can all live together more harmoniously.


Live and love
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CarolP
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: April 09, 2004 07:00
Using offensive words is a way of expressing yourself, true, and they are only words, but there is a time and place for the use of those kinds of words. I don't expect people to refrain from bad language in a bar, but I would expect it in a family restaurant. Even though I still wince when I hear women saying obscenities, even at the bar. I'm just old-fashioned that way.
And falather, I really enjoyed your story about how quiet and respectful the students were during the moment of silence. So many people expect teen-agers and kids to be disrespectful, but that is not always the case. Kids will be kids, but by the time they become teen-agers they certainly are capable of having good manners and respect when it's called for.
tuttleturtle
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: April 09, 2004 12:40
and its important to have a limit on acceptable language, there were people mad at my friend because the bouncy ball they were playing with hit her and she picked it up, not imediatly giving it back (they didn't desearve it)and the only thing they would say to her was swares (high-school *Shakes head*)
LadyEowyn_Of_Rohan
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: September 11, 2004 04:16
My youngest son, when he was about 14 offered his seat on a downtown bus to a very pregnant older women. She turned round to him and said, "What do you think I am, a cripple." She then proceeded to swear at him and really tell him off, until another women very politely told her to, "Shut-up!" Totally embarrassing for my son
That's the problem with giving up your seat to any stranger - it's might be interpreted as offensive to the stranger, even if you mean well, and it seems to imply that he or she is physically less than you are. I've been brought up basically to believe that everyone is equal, and at least to so it doesn't seem right to give up a seat to an eighty year old rather than a six or twenty year old. Not that it isn't the right thing to do, but today it might be interpreted as a strange but slightly demeaning gesture from someone well-meaning. I was at a family barbecue and my aunt walked outside. There weren't any chairs left, so I got up. She exclaimed that I must have been very well brought up to give up my seat to an elder. No, I gave up my seat to someone who didn't have one because it seemed nice and I didn't mind standing.

I don't curse in anger or strong emotion, and never have. People tend to either overuse curse words so that they lose any power, or they give them too much power and are too easily disgusted or offended by them. Among people whom I know won't be offended, I do repeat curses, but don't really "use" them, if you know what I mean. ("They shout "****" so much you would think it was one of their friend's names or it meant "hi".)

Yes, trying to look older by smoking, drinking, using drugs, stealing, or doing anything like that is pretty pointless. A big contributing factor is a sense of rebellion and doing the right thing on a teenager's level: reverse pshycology, the schools spend hours trying to convince us not to do drugs. It has the same (or reverse ) effect as the assembleys that try to convince us that liquid nitrogen, when used safely, is a barrel of monkeys. By the end of the assembly, everyone is convinced that liquid nitrogen is the most pointless, boring thing ever discovered.

Here, everyone opens doors for everyone else. Going through a door with someone behind you and not holding it open would be rude.

By the way, I live in a quiet upper middle class suburb of New York City, I'm 13, and I mostly agree with Nauma, since a lot of that might affect my response and how you perceive it.

[Edited on 15/7/2005 by LadyEowyn_Of_Rohan]
DinenGlamor
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: September 13, 2004 06:59
I'm 15, and it's true that most people my age are not that polite. Personally, I know I'm much more polite than most others of my age; I was brought up that way and now it just seems like common sense.

I mean, it's not all there for decoration. When you say thank you, you're saying you appreciate what they're doing. When you hold open a door, you're preventing someone from having a door slam on their face. Generally, when you're respectful to others, whether they're older than you or your own age or younger, it makes them feel better and think better of you. People don't need to go overboard, but just some courtesy would be good!

Swearing, I think, isn't a huge deal, but isn't necessary. I mean, I don't swear in front of adults or strangers. I won't pretend that I'm some little perfect angel who would faint if somebody swore, but I think that language is a wonderful thing and while an exclamation is sometimes fine, it's not needed for every second word to be an expletive.

Just my two cents
Dingil
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: September 14, 2004 10:06
My mum always got me to be polite when i was small so i always do stuff like saying thank you naturally... i think people are getting less polite though.. sad
( hehe everyone posted long replies and mines short... i defie you all mwahahahaha!!!!!)
Vardagaladhiel
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: October 02, 2004 11:06
I think that standards have really degraded :sob: , so much so that almost no one seems to have any sense of respect, or any knowledge of etiquette or propriety. I mean, don't get me wrong...I don't think all the change in attitude is bad but when your classmates (I'm 15 and I go to an all girls school) won't even let the teacher do their job, their all talking so much, openly swear in public :nono: (eg indirectly at teachers in their presence), or completely ignore the teacher! I really feel quite disgustedand helpless at sometimes, because these are supposed to be intelligent young women but they act like animals!

Ok, so thats my little rant/moan about school over!

Anyway, I have really been brought up by example from my parents and family, and I don't think twice about opening a door, or waiting for the person behind me to come through before I close it, no matter who they are from the youngest pupils to staff or visistors. My mum always made sure I was polite as a child, and I agree with Dingil about how people getting less polite is really sad!

I really agree with DinenGlamor as well, I feel the same way! I even find some of my friends can be really impolite and they are generally really good people!

PS.....just an observation but there are loads of 15 year olds here!!! Hello to everyone!!!!!!!!!hehehehehehehehe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Edited on 2/07/2004 by Vardagaladhiel]
Sirthien
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: October 14, 2004 07:50
I can say this, Etiquette is an endangered specie... Since I work with kids, horses and parents I know exactly how different etiquette can be. I'm 'only' 22 but as my grandfather repeatably have told me, I have the etiquette of one double my age. My group of Breg Hêns (a group of youngsters that have been in trouble in different ways) were first astonished when I let my train seat go to a older man, and I have been told that I have the 'deathglare' so they rose and let up their seats. One old lady was so astonished that these *no-good-looking* kids let her sit while they stood. I have hope that they will become a part of the endangered specie...

They have learned to open doors, mostly 'cause they have to since I have a wheelchair on a bad day, and their teachers have heard them say hello for the first time in three years, they still swear and rant but they are getting there.
Alya
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: December 05, 2004 06:42
Funny you should ask.
I'm fourteen, and people always compliment me on my handshake. I'm sure to look them in the eye, smile, have a firm handshake, and say "Nice to meet you."
I always let people go ahead of me, which creates an awkward situation where both people are saying "No you go!" and no one's going.
I try not to swear, and I admonish my brother, who is 11, when he swears (in fact I smack him. V. hard.). However, even when I'm in polite company, if I drop something on my toe, I'm not thinking about watching my mouth, and some four-letter words come out, but then I get really embaressed, so I don't think all hope is lost.
I try and use etiquette, especially with other people, because it is important, especially if you want to be with good people. That's one way I judge people - by their manners. Usually people with bad manners are in a grumpy mood or don't have the common sense to use etiquette.
asleepingvision
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: November 09, 2005 06:28
I live near New York City. I don't know the meaning of chivalry.


[Edited on 10/11/2005 by asleepingvision]
MirkwoodsArcher
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: November 09, 2005 08:48
Good manners are definately on the way out, being polite should not have to be taught it should come naturally

.. I think walking nearest the road on a pavement comes from a age long ago when people threw their lavitory business out of the window...
asleepingvision
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: November 10, 2005 04:50
I don't know what state it's in, but i heard that there's a law that says that if a male is walking with a female, the male has to stay nearest to the road... I think it was to keep the female from being covered in... er... fecal matter... Eww....
BelleBayard
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: November 10, 2005 06:30
Think it has to do with the days of horsedrawn carriages. Men would walk on the outside to "protect" the lady from being splashed by mud and other unpleasant substances when vehicles passed by.
LinweSingollo
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: November 11, 2005 07:22
Good manners are definately on the way out, being polite should not have to be taught it should come naturally

I had to chuckle over this one. I have yet to meet the child that is born polite. Manners definitely have to be taught at a young age, else children turn into barbarians and obnoxious adults.
"To the Hobbits. May they outlast the Sarumans and see spring again in the trees." J.R.R. Tolkien
Aranel_Elenlin
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: November 11, 2005 06:10
i def agree that politeness is declineing, but not everyone is like that!! i took jr.cotillion for 3 years, and was fully educated of manners i diddnt even know existed!! :dizzy: and every now and then someone pops up to show me that they are still in practice!! i am also very proud to say that my parents have raised me well, and taught me what is "ladylike"! *huggles parents* i also know what to expect from a gentelman, and if he is rude enough i plan to ask my dad to say something too him.... but i dont think ill be dating anyone like that!! i know there are well mannered guys out there!! :love:
Aowyn
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: November 13, 2005 01:11
Wow has this old thread been resurrected? I'm glad
I'm happy to report that I am still striving to "model" good social manners for my students. My two main points to them are
A) you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, and
B) whether it is "right" or not, people will often judge you on the first impression you leave upon them, and you may not get a second chance
Here in my neck of the woods your whole upbringing and place on the "social ladder" is pinpointed by how you conduct yourself--sounds medieval to many, I'm sure, but it's true
hobbitnamedeliza
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: November 13, 2005 06:26
Manners vary from place to place, too, I've noticed...even in a relatively limited area.

For example: I'm from New York which is usually a place criticized as having bad manners. But I've never found that to be the case.

Where I live now (still within the USA), it is reputed to be an area of chivalry and good manners...I simply don't see it.

So, you see perceptions differ.

But to answer the general question; I think manners are usually observed by some and totally ignored by others in every age of history. It depends on upbringing, education, and individual personality.

And, just for the record...While I could easily excuse men not observing the "niceties" in the workplace; I appreciate nothing more than being treated special and like a lady elsewhere!
~Faer_od_Arien~
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: November 13, 2005 09:54
I don't know the meaning of chivalry.

Chivalry comes from the French word for horseman, "chevalier" and comes from a time when men who looked after animals such as horses were known to take care of others under their protection - which at the time included women. They understood that women did not possess equal physical strength to men, and honour and nobility were denoted by how a man treated those of lower status (at that time) than he.
It's now come to mean traditional values and respect towards others though usually women.
Sorry if that ramble doesn't make sense. What does make sense is to treat others with the same courtesy as you wish to be shown to yourself. Show respect, and you become a person worthy of respecting. *not preaching to the converted*. Where I work, I have to respect all who I come in contact with, and that isn't always easy. But, partly through my upbringing and partly due to my own experiences I have learnt how to deal with all kinds of people and to not hold it against them when they don't have the same respect for me!
hmm... "love thy neighbour", forgiveness, "do unto others" - looks like these "Biblical" principles aren't outdated... *puts soapbox away*.
asleepingvision
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: November 14, 2005 12:31
HAHAHAHA

By "i don't know the meaning of chivalry", i meant that there is no chivalry here (where i live).

Sorry for the confusion.

:banghead:
Aowyn
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: November 15, 2005 09:34
Manners vary from place to place, too, I've noticed...even in a relatively limited area.

For example: I'm from New York which is usually a place criticized as having bad manners. But I've never found that to be the case.


I've never quite understood that...I have visited NYC a number of times and everyone was always very nice. Of course, asking nicely for directions and being polite yourself doesn't hurt, I'm sure...I definitely don't think New Yorkers deserve any reputation for being rude. At least not from my experience.
Tyrann
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: November 15, 2005 04:45
This is a very intersting topic...

As for me, well, I'm 20. I try to be as polite as possible, such as letting ppl in before me, giving stuff up for other ppl, letting pedestrians cross or allowing someone to turn before me in merging lanes.

However, I do believe that it is dying out. There are a lot of rude ppl on the roads here in Aust. who cut in front of you or speed up. Some ppl have also taken offense at politeness as well, which is sad as well.

As a Christian, I try to be the best example that I can be, but I know that I will have my failings in life.
awelyn418
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: November 22, 2005 08:09
Yes, I think good manners are dying out. I think equality is a good thing but I like to feel special and when some gentleman opens my door or pulls out my chair I love it. To me rudeness should not be tolerated. I can't stand at Christmas how people jostle you and step on your toes and not even say they are sorrow. I have taught my children and grandchildren manners and will continue until I die.
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longbe4thesun
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: November 22, 2005 09:39
One day in my AP Stats class we were actually talking about Guys holding the door for women, and one of my classmates says she would stop at everydoor when she was around her boyfriend untill he opened the door for her. Most girls in my class said they'd get annoyed if a guy opened the door for them every single time, but I just looked at them knowing that they were totally missing the whole point of why guys open doors for women (outside of the fact that it's polite, which they kindly acknowleged).
At my job were told to respect our customers, and that includes doing things like opening doors for elderly people, or other people that need help going through the entry way, and are always told to mind our Ps and Qs. For me it just comes naturally because I know that that's what I've grown up seeing and being expected to do also.
As for guys opening the door, my grandfather told me that when I was dating a guy that a guy wasn't worth my time if he could open the door for me, and I've really taken it to heart. I get strange looks from most people when I tell them this, but that's how I've always known my grandfather to treat other women, that's how I've known my dad to treat other women, and it's what I want to know about how (if I decide I want to marry) my future husband treats other women. Each woman, whether they want the door opened or not deserves the same respect fom the opposite sex that they would want to give to others. You give what you get.
That's just my two cents, for what it's worth.
Jozy
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Post RE: Is etiquette dead?
on: February 18, 2007 07:45
One day in my AP Stats class we were actually talking about Guys holding the door for women, and one of my classmates says she would stop at everydoor when she was around her boyfriend untill he opened the door for her. Most girls in my class said they'd get annoyed if a guy opened the door for them every single time, but I just looked at them knowing that they were totally missing the whole point of why guys open doors for women (outside of the fact that it's polite, which they kindly acknowleged).
For me it just comes naturally because I know that that's what I've grown up seeing and being expected to do also.
As for guys opening the door, my grandfather told me that when I was dating a guy that a guy wasn't worth my time if he could open the door for me, and I've really taken it to heart. I get strange looks from most people when I tell them this, but that's how I've always known my grandfather to treat other women, that's how I've known my dad to treat other women, and it's what I want to know about how (if I decide I want to marry) my future husband treats other women. Each woman, whether they want the door opened or not deserves the same respect fom the opposite sex that they would want to give to others. You give what you get.
That's just my two cents, for what it's worth.


*rummages around The Prancing Pony, resurrecting old threads*
"ah, this looks like a good one!"

I agree wholeheartedly with longbe; nothing in a male attracts me more than good manners and thoughtful courtesies.

A family I know, with more than 5 boys, raised them up with this and other principles in mind: "Every woman is someone’s mother, sister, or daughter and should be treated accordingly. Never lay a hand on a woman, or abuse her in any way." All the boys are grown up now, and every one of them is respectful and polite, it's nice being around them.

It's important for me to see how a guy treats his mother and sisters; that's a surefire indicator on how he'll treat his future wife. Ditto for a girl about her father and brothers.

And swearing is always coarse and rude...it also limits one's vocabulary... Anyone notice it's always Jesus, who's name everyone abuses? People would freak out if someone used Buddha's or Allah's name in vain...double-standard here
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