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Ashbrook
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Post RE: Pity
on: February 03, 2010 09:13
I definitely feel bad for Faramir. It takes a real good guy to still love someone who they were "supposed to be" during his entire life. As another poster said, he never was jealous of boromir, nor resented him. It's a good thing that boromir treated Faramir well.
LOTR_obsessed_loony
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Post RE: Pity
on: February 06, 2010 05:02
Odd, how you can think about and analyse something so much, and yet when a question is asked pertaining to it for which you have long had an answer prepared (albeit vaguely), your mind goes totally blank save for perhaps a few unsatisfactory fragments of said answer.

Well. Who do I pity in Tolkien's work? Almost everybody, I suppose, at one point or another. Sometimes it seems like it was written largely for the purpose of evoking pity. (Come to think of it, that isn't at all unlikely.) However, a couple of examples do stand out.

Gollum. Of course. Most of the pity I have for him stems from the incident when, just after betraying the hobbits to Shelob, he comes back to find them asleep. A change comes over him and you can see he regrets, if only momentarily, his actions. He almost seems on the point of repenting, and you can let yourself believe that maybe he can be saved, maybe he'll "turn to the good"... and then Sam wakes up and speaks roughly to him, bringing his Stinker side out again, and you know that his last chance is now gone, he's past the point of no return, he never will be saved. It just seems so tragic to me, that, when Gollum is so near to salvation (metaphorically speaking, centimetres away from it), it's snatched away by the simple bad timing of Sam's awakening, and Sam doesn't even realize.

Then, there's Maglor, second son of Feanor. Not mentioned so far, and yet who couldn't feel sorry for him? His entire family is dead or estranged, he's been forced by an oath that he didn't even really want to take to do the most awful things, and after devoting almost his whole life to retrieving the Silmarils, when he finally fulfils this purpose, they burn him - thereby illustrating (at least the way I interpret it) that by reason of the deeds he had to do just to get them, he rendered himself unworthy of possessing them. In effect, he made the rope for his own neck. I can't imagine how he must have felt at that moment. And then, after going through every terrible experience life could throw at him, the poor Elf is more or less forgotten, or maybe abandoned would be a better word, with only a rumour of his eventual fate trickling down through the Ages to reach us. And as well as pitying him, I admire him, too - I'm not even sure what for. Maybe because, despite becoming pitiable, he never seems to "fall". Even after he has killed, destroyed, betrayed, after all these things, I still see him as the "good brother". And of course, I can see something of myself in him - he's a poet, a writer, a reader. But I can't really analyse it - despite a half-hour or so of bungling attempts.

So there's my bundle of half-expressed thoughts. I suppose the best I can hope for is that they make some sort of sense to anyone other than me.
"...Though thereafter we may walk in the shadows, I will not go forth as a thief in the night." – Boromir, FotR, The Ring Goes South Image Image Image Image Image
Ally_Sanders
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Post RE: Pity
on: February 09, 2010 02:15
oh, I agree with you, Loony, on Maglor! I too have always pitied him and always felt he was reluctant to take the oath and participate in the deeds of his family, and I've always considered him the best of the lot, too (of course, all this is simply my own personal feelings). He's the only member of Feanor's family I can halfway respect. I think he got caught up in the whole mess out of intense love and devotion to family. I believe what gave me compassion toward him is his fostering and love for Elrond and Elros as well as his great desire in the end to submit to the Valar and try to do the right thing in the end, though he finally follow Maedhros's lead one last time, out of loyalty to his brother, I think, rather than any desire for the Silmarils. I find the last story of Maglor and Maedhros very sad, and I also greatly, greatly pity Maedhros in that scene. Poor Maedhros had utterly lost all hope by that time that he couldn't even catch the small glimmer that perhaps they could get pardon eventually in Aman if they returned, and I think that both brothers by this point in the story were utterly sick of the bloodshed and hating themselves, the wretched oath, and the Silmarils all together.

So yes, I definitely pity Maglor and Maedhros. There are many, many others I can think of, too! I do pity Denethor, as someone else mentioned, and I can scrap together a small amount of pity for Gollum.

I also pity Isildur, who I don't believe has been mentioned yet; he was such a great warrior and did many selfless deeds and gave so much for his people, but had a moment of weakness in the end, and that seems to be all that he's remembered for! I especially pity him at the end, when he realizes his folly but knows it is too late. I also greatly pity his eldest son, who stood by him until the end and died because of his father's mistake. I think he reminds me very much of Jonathon in the Bible.

I hold some pity for the elves, as well--it does have to be horrible, in the end, to live eternally, never changing yourself, but forced to watch as everything around you changes and dies and withers. I can understand why in the end most elves distanced themselves from men and tried to create things and realms that would last.

I pity the Avari who seemed to be all but abandoned simply because they wanted to stay in the land they had been born in.

I greatly pity Morwen and Hurin as well, especially Hurin. He had such an ignoble end for someone so courageous!

I pity Elrond in the loss of his brother, mother, and father, the horrible happenings and separation from his wife, and later, the loss of his daughter and possibly his sons. I think I would have given up to despair if I had his life!

I also greatly pity Finrod and the terrible end he suffered as well as his father, Finarfin, in the loss of his children (though he does get them back later), and the Ambarusa, as well as poor Indis, and Feanor's wife (whose name escapes me at the moment). I most definitely pity her--she lost her husband and all of her sons and unlike many others in Aman, she doesn't have the hope that her kin will return to her re-housed from the Halls--at least, not until the end of time (which is why I've always held the personal hope that perhaps some day, in later ages beyond the tales presented in the red book, that Maglor did eventually return to Aman and received pardon so that at least one of the sons was able to return. I know--this is probably just a pipe dream on my part, but I enjoy being delusional on occasion )

I could probably mention many, many more, but I'll stop there. Lets just say that there are a lot of characters in Tolkien's stories that I could pity! He seems to have had a great talent for evoking that particular emotion!
Lord_Sauron
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Post RE: Pity
on: March 03, 2010 09:13
i feel sorry for the Balrog of Moria all he was doing was sleeping and then the dwarfs woke him up wouldnt you be angry if someone woke you up after a very long sleep.
Seriously i do pity Gollum
wolfbladequeen
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on: June 16, 2013 06:10
I pity Eowyn because, although she said she feared a cage, I think she did have a cage, metaphorically speaking. Being a woman imposed restrictions upon her, such as being unable to fight, and it might just be me but I get the sense that she is almost trapped in Rohan, at least before she rides off to Gondor.
If anyone had happened to look out of a window on the east side of the palace, they might have noticed two figures in the darkness, dancing in a square bordered by living plants, out of time with the dancers inside but perfectly in time with each other.
Lord_Sauron
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on: July 02, 2013 07:23
You make an excellent point wolfbladequeen about Eowyn.
I know this is only a movie/book forum but in reality some countries still do impose restrictions on women who are treated poorly and like second class citizens of their own country. ( To the Moderators if this post is Immoral or offence, could you please delete it)

[Edited on 07/02/2013 by Lord_Sauron]
cirdaneth
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on: July 02, 2013 01:31
Nothing offensive in that, Lord S! Tolkien was well aware of women's struggles through his own mother. Like Eowyn, she fought her own kind of battle, though her education and intelligence were never taken seriously. She taught her sons Latin, botany, and many other subjects but as a widow in a world with no 'benefits' she could only clean for the priests at the Oratory, and eventually died when the boys were 10 and 12.

In Eowyn, Tolkien put a sword in his mother's hand and sent her into battle against the orders of her menfolk, where she triumphed over evil,was wounded but survived and found love at last. Whether this was Tolkien's intent I do not know, but it is my belief that it is so.
tarcolan
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on: July 02, 2013 01:39
No problem if you keep it on topic. Eowyn is the exception that proves the rule of patriarchy. Tolkien has often been accused of sexism amongst other things, but he was, as are we all, a victim of the times he lived in. Allowances can be made for this when reading his works. It is unfair perhaps, to condemn him for it. Such prejudices are deep-set in society and imparted from cradle to grave, becoming unconsciously held belief, acceptance of the way the world is. It is difficult for us to break out of them. We shouldn't forget that Arwen and Lúthien were hidden away and protected from the world, in the manner of princesses in a tower, or tree in Lúthien's case. One suspects this was not for their own sake. Yet there are many strong women in Tolkien's works and we have to credit him with the tendency at least to portray them.
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Bartimaeus
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on: July 04, 2013 08:30
Tolkien strikes me as pretty establishment. He did depict the Arwen/Luthien kind of female as well as the Aredhel/Eowyn kind with a lot of sympathy and pity, but there's something a little Euripidean about his way of looking at it. It's like "yes, you have my sympathy, but I won't have you doing anything about it." Eowyn's story ends happily because she becomes a part of the establishment... She gets married.

But yeah, at least they had his ear. Listening is the first step, and it was pretty unusual in those times.
PotbellyHairyfoot
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on: July 06, 2013 07:49
Eowyn's story may have ended happily for another reason. One her her biggest problems was her fear that the men went off to fight leaving the women unprotected at home and unable to do anything constructive about their enemies. That made her an object of self-pity, at least in her eyes. After the war of the ring ended the enemies were gone the reasons for her fears also were gone, leaving her to get on with her life. She also had the benefit of being able to finally go out and face her enemies instead of just sitting at home waiting for them to come at her.
She ended up in the same place, as a dutiful wife in a secondary position, but with the source of her self pity now removed.
HuldahMaria
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on: July 06, 2013 07:32
My list is very long, and if I even try to name everyone, I will forget some. A few not mentioned much:

Thranduil
Thingol
Turgon
Thorin
Balin
Melian
Finduilas
And I will live to carry Your compassion, to love a world that's broken, to be Your hands and feet, and I will give with the life that I've been given, and go beyond religion to see the world be changed by the power of Your name. ~Lincoln Brewster
213415
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on: July 10, 2013 11:51
At some point or another in these stories, I think i have pitied almost everyone- I'll try to list them all but I'm sure I'll forget some, so...
Thorin- he set out on the quest with good intentions, he just wanted his gold and kingdom back, but the dragon-sickness led him to actions that he normally would not have taken
Gollum- all the above reasons, really. the life he could have had was taken from him, from the moment he became "addicted" to the Ring
Eowyn- she really was trapped, forced to stay and wait for her enemies to come to her, unable to fight for the people she loved
Aragorn- he had to prove himself to everyone, facing all kinds of challenges and knowing what was at stake. He didn't think he and Arwen could ever be together
Turin- his whole life was, like, a tragedy
Faramir- living with a fathers who was going mad, always being second best to his brother. But he never was angry at Boromir or his father, he still loved them.
The Elves- watching everything around them fade
Saruman- he was supposed to be wise, and he succumbed to his greed for power
Frodo- having to carry the Ring, and the whole time becoming "addicted" then finally passing over the Sea because he still was not fully healed from his quest, and could find no rest in the Shire, even though he had succeeded in saving it.
Sam- watching Frodo succumb to the Ring

[Edited on 07/10/2013 by 213415]
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Ilandir
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on: July 11, 2013 09:41
I pity mostly the unsung heroes during the battle of the War of the Ring...

Háma for the Battle of Helm's Deep or Grimbold, Guthláf, Herefara, Herubrand, Hirluin the Fair, Dúnhere, Duilin and Derufin at the Pelennor Fields.

Although many are barely mentioned, it is they (along with the main characters) that sacrificed their lives for the triumph of good.

[Edited on 07/11/2013 by Ilandir]
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LadyBeruthiel
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on: July 18, 2013 08:44
Has anyone mentioned Grima Wormtongue? I find him pitiable to the point of being pathetic. He could have chosen freedom, but was afraid of Saruman. In the end, he refused responsibility. He would have had to make amends for all the wrong he had done, but then he could have held his head up and been free. Trapped in his own fear and pride, with no one to blame but himself.

I could say I pity Frodo, having suffered so terribly and then not being able to rest in his own home. The thought of losing home forever makes me sad indeed. But I also honor and respect Frodo. So what I feel for him isn't really pity. I think pity is what you feel for someone weaker than yourself.
Eruanna elven
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on: July 26, 2013 12:48
What about the ents? They live on, lose their "wives" and can't multiply and therefor
Are doomed to be wiped out!
Water, ice, and air, these are the elements I understand. What's your element? -Eruanna
tarcolan
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on: July 26, 2013 02:52
Some thoughts:
Would it not be better to ask who we do not pity? Judging by the above answers, most of Tolkien's characters are written to engender pity. Even Saruman, though he rejects and scorns the pity of his equals.

What is the nature of pity, such a crucial concept in The Lord Of The Rings? If we can easily identify with the character then we can sympathise with them and thus pity them, Frodo, Sam, Eowyn. But who wants to be pitied? Not many of us I would guess. Eowyn didn't. What then of those who are so different, so removed from who and what we are that they attract nothing but our disgust and opprobrium. We might call them monsters or inhuman, or say "I don't understand people like that.". Empathy is so much more difficult and requires a leap of imagination. How to be a Gollum or even a Sauron, in order to pity them? Much easier to simply hate.

One of the purposes of storytelling is to allow us to experiment with such concepts, and fantasy worlds allow us to do this without the preconceptions and prejudices that go with real world stories. I think Tolkien made very good use of this. In a way there is no absolute evil in his world (no, not even Melkor), and so no-one is beyond redemption.
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PotbellyHairyfoot
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on: July 27, 2013 07:43
Gollum would never have my pity. he was bad-natured to begin with and the ring just emphasized what was already there.
Fëanor is another character undeserving of pity. He was so egocentric and lacking of empathy that he may have actually been a sociopath.
Ella
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on: July 27, 2013 09:52
tarcolan I totally agree with you. Mostly of Tolkien’s characters are so well conceived you can always see through themselves. I mean you can understand everyone’s position so you pity many ones. I don’t like that word because in my opinion it’s an awful feeling. However, when you’re using it here it’s a little bit different of its true meaning.

As some people have already told, I “pity” Thorin. After his grandfather “disease” he became obsessed like him, near the end. This obsession drove to his death. Another two characters I feel bad about their death are Fíli and Kíli. They were the younger dwarves and the only direct line of Durin. It was obvious they needed to die to “break” the line. However, their heroic death was really sad and almost like it was useless. (I know it wasn’t).

Bilbo was also one of the characters that broke my heart. Despite everything he was aware that he was really important to that story and his discover brought bad times for his loved ones.

I have plenty more characters to the list, but these are the ones that weren’t so referred.


[Edited on 07/28/2013 by Ella]
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Lord_Sauron
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on: July 28, 2013 03:30
I pity Deagol, one moment he is innocently fishing with what appears to be his best friend then it dramatically changes when he discovers the ring at the bottom of the river and his life is taken away by Sméagol, who then begins his transformation into Gollum. Like you PotbellyHairyfoot I will never pity Feanor
findemaxam48
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on: July 29, 2013 06:27
Gollum has my pity. He was corrupted by the Ring and it drove him mad. It eventually brought on his death, and the reason he turned against Frodo and Sam was because of the insanity that the Ring brought on.
We were one in the same, running like moths to the flame. You'd hang on every word I'd say, but now they only ricochet.
tarcolan
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on: July 30, 2013 03:56
Tolkien would disagree with you Maxie, The Ring was not the cause of his death, Eru nudged him over the edge in the end. According to Tolkien evil cannot be overcome except with the help of Eru, so not even evil itself can bring about it's own destruction. This might be ok except that Eru chose Sméagol to take the Ring so why involve Déagol? To prove that Sméagol was easily corruptible? Poor bloke, yes I pity him too.

I pity Feanor as well for much the same reason. Like I said, it's hard to explain why anyone does not deserve pity, even if he was a stubborn, selfish, arrogant ....
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findemaxam48
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on: July 30, 2013 05:17
Thats a valid point, tarcolan! Thanks!
We were one in the same, running like moths to the flame. You'd hang on every word I'd say, but now they only ricochet.
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