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pippin_lovin_fool
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Post Slash
on: September 14, 2005 01:37
One thing i do not enjoy about searching for fanfic about lotr is all the slash that pops up. On my recent trip the thelibraryofmoria.com, i was so disgusted by some of the stories....i couldnt watch any Legolas and Aragorn scenes for a long time. I AM NOT AGAINST HOMOSEXUALS.....SERIOUSLY. I myself am straight...but not narrow. I know CoE is a melting pot of opinions and beliefs...and i am quite sure at least one person here is homosexual....nothing wrong with that. I believe strongly that you are born one way or the other...never made, we are who we are born....cant change that, if we could, i'd look like Tyra Banks...but we all know thats not gonna happen. So, when i am not against gays/lesbians/bys i am against Lotr slash. It makes lotr something it was never meant to be. As fans of the series, we should celebrate lotr as the work of a genius...not twist it so we can make cheap "gay elf" and "gay hobbit" jokes. I realize Sam says he "loves" frodo, and "touches frodo's hand and blushes", but Tolkien's works are from a time when strong, platonic friendship was just that.....FRIENDSHIP. I do like some examples of slash....such as Cassie Clair's "the very secret diaries, but even thats pushing it. It just upsets me that people would make something as innocent as a hobbit hug and turn it into a vulgar example of our rotten society. Not everyone has open opinions of homosexuality, thats their business...i'm not here to judge....and to some, a gay joke makes lotr seem like a cesspool of hidden meanings and its not. Some things can be considered somewhat funny and/or acceptable...but other thing should stay in the perverted recesses of the twisted mind. I'm not saying all slash is bad, if you seriously would like to see more same sex paring in something you love like lotr (probably if you are gay/lesbian, if not..still o.k)...but if it is for cheap laughs....not cool. And lets try to lay off the sam and frodo/pippin and merry slash...if only real friendship could be as pure and true. I apologize greatly if this has offended anyone, i am, but somethings i cant forgive. (like certain avatars i have seen lately, you try explaining to your 8 year old little sister why frodo and sam are so close and with such little clothing when she glances at the forums. She loves lotr and thinks of it as pure and magical...i'd like to keep it that way.) i apologize again. For those who agree/disagree, thats what this post is about. :feedback:



*Thread title changed*

[Edited on 9/16/2005 by Goldsand]
Ireth_Telrunya
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Post RE: Slash
on: September 14, 2005 04:12
I agree completely!!! I detest slash stories. I've read quite a few with Elrond/Glorfindel, which absolutely disgusted me because Elrond is SUPPOSED to be married to Celebrian. I really don't like it when whole characters are deleted for the sake of a story! How about you?
Far over the Misty Mountains cold, to dungeons deep and caverns old. We must away ere break of day, to claim our long forgotten gold.
orthanc5
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Post RE: Slash
on: September 14, 2005 04:22
I'm not big in to fanfic, but I'm curious about everything. Does slash apply only to homosexuality, or to all types of sex-involving scenes?
9digithobbit
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Post RE: Slash
on: September 14, 2005 04:57
Well, I can agree with you on one thing here. Anyone with an explicit avatar, in a public forum... that just ain't right.

But on the rest of it, I have to disagree. Slash is (at least in the archives I visit) clearly labeled so anyone underage or who just doesn't want to see it can avoid it. Some of us do like it, as evidenced by the number of people who write it. Yes, some of it is tasteless. Some of it is worse. Some of it is very well-written and moving. If I were to offer one reason why some people like it, (and I don't speak for everyone, obviously) it is because LotR is such an emotion-filled story for us that we go anyplace we can with those emotions, even if the Author would have disapproved. Some people feel this detracts from the canon friendships. Others don't feel that way. I, for one, read mostly gen because I do love the canon so much. But like any good myth, it survives the mutation of passing through other minds and being retold, and some of those slash retellings play on the original themes and friendships very well, and there are some wonderful stories out there for those so inclined. You can avoid them, you can detest them, but I doubt they're going anywhere. And I feel I ought to point out one thing... slash is mainly read and written by het women. One's personal orientation may or may not have anything to do with it.

Just my $0.02

Oh, and orthanc5, slash sometimes indicates any pairing, but typically it implies m/m, or less commonly f/f. At least in this fandom, I have often seen the term "het" used to mean m/f pairings in stories. And "gen" indicates no pairing at all, good "general audience" fare. ^__^
Mistalagan
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Post RE: Slash
on: September 14, 2005 05:40
I disagree. I find that often slash authors are better read on the true history of Middle - Earth than many het or gen authors.
pippin_lovin_fool
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Post RE: Slash
on: September 14, 2005 05:57
Ok., a few of you i agree with, slash can be moving. I have read said moving slash, but what i'm getting at is the stupid slash. like "elrond and legolas and aragorns did it..he he" I do agree that most of it is clearly labeled, but it sometimes isnt, especiallu if it is on a non english speaking site. (german, french, to name a few.) I do appreciate all "$0.02", and i realize that almost everything in life is and opinion, hardly ever fact. Who's to say i am right? who's to say you are wrong?
j_mercuryuk
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Post RE: Slash
on: September 14, 2005 11:45
Well the turn slash is differnt depending on where you go
(like so many terms in fanfiction).
I have nothing against slash fanfiction because fanfiction is just about having fun, nothing more. I don't mind it as long as it has a plot. If it has a plot I'll read it.
But I disagree with them trying to say that certain charaters are gay. Most of the time its poeple not understanding the relationship, but they feel they must label it. The friendship shown in LotR is one that most people can't possibly understand. It's beyond everyday friendship, it's about putting your life into someone elses hands and doing so everyday, it's about traveling with that person everyday.
Slash tends to be very well written because they tend to NC-17 and so written by older more experienced poeple.
HeriTavaril
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Post RE: Slash
on: September 15, 2005 07:26
I think that writing about love between two people can be beautifully done in the hands of a good writer. I don't see that the gender of the characters invovled should make any difference I know that real life doesn't work like that but then real life rarely gives us a place like middle earth. There is also in my mind nothing wrong with making that love physical. I have read a lot of slash and even had a go at writing some. I have a theory that a lot of slash writers read what others have written and follow a rather explicit formula but then writing any story containing sex scenes can get boring unless you concentrate more on what's going on between the sheets rather than what is in the characters mind. Lets face it there are only so many variations of the actual act. It is possible to write an erotic story where all the characters do is touch hands. It is of course more difficult and challenging than just having two sweaty bodies engaging in full on sex.
Twylight_Aelf
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Post RE: Slash
on: September 15, 2005 10:03
I'm not big in to fanfic, but I'm curious about everything. Does slash apply only to homosexuality, or to all types of sex-involving scenes?


It refers to homosexual pairings only. And it doesn't have to sex-involving.

I dislike slash as well. Not only does it treat Tolkien's works badly, but the fanfictions tend to go along the same story line.

And, no, I'm not talking about NC-17 slash. I mean, LotR slash fics in general.
pippin_lovin_fool
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Post RE: Slash
on: September 15, 2005 11:36
Oh...for the love of....o.k, the point i keep trying to get acrossis i do know that some slash is beautiful and moving, and i appreciate deep love, physical or not, no matter what the pairing but i hate cheap shot slash like this one i actually found on fanfiction.net:
"The fellowship of the gay ppl
Legolas, gimli and all the hobbits and aragorn were gay, and so waz elrond and they all were gay togather beacause they were gay, like all lotr ppl.
lol, like gay elves and hobbits ..heh."

*SHUDDER SHUDDER SHUDDER* blech......but seriously, i quote that fic. I have no problem with the beautiful fics, slash or not, but when i see something like that, my heart sinks. (first of all, to know there are people out there who are actually that bad at writing fics.) Because it in a way gives a bad name to the moving slash, and makes a mokery of lotr fandom :angry: . Anyone who thought that fic was "beautifully done" or "moving" needs a labotomy and a good SMACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BelleBayard
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Post RE: Slash
on: September 15, 2005 01:02
No, it was very poorly done. Badfic is badfic regardless of if it's slash, het, or gen. Even some of the PWP (Plot, what plot?) stuff done well can be very good. But I've also read fairly long gen or het stuff that makes me cringe. These are not even close to Tolkien's characters or world. It's as if the authors just threw in the names and called it LoTR fanfic. Um... No. Some I doubt seriously have read the books and maybe saw the film a few times. Nothing wrong with being drawn into Tolkien's world with PJ's gorgeous rendition. But if you're going to write about it, you have to research. One of the reasons many slash writers (the good ones) know so much is because they absolutely adore the universe and want to learn as much as they can about it so they write realistically. Whether or not you care for slash, any good fanfic should know that universe inside out. Is this what this character would do in this situation? Is this what this character would talk like? Mannerisms? Writing is a lot of work, but sometimes it's even more work writing fanfic because you need to stay in that special world the original author created. Just my two dinarae.

[Edited on 9/15/2005 by BelleBayard]
Goldsand
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Post RE: Slash
on: September 15, 2005 10:36
Let's tread easy here folks ... this discussion has been pretty much civil so far but can potentially be inflammatory, which then this thread will be closed.

A reminder from the Forum Rules:

4. Be respectful of others. No flaming, rudeness, or name-calling will be allowed. Trolls will be banned. Hate speech, anti-gay or homophobic comments, and racist remarks will be dealt with swiftly and with zero tolerance.


Thanks ...
pippin_lovin_fool
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Post RE: Slash
on: September 16, 2005 10:20
O.K, no one wants to make anyone angry, it's just, fanfic and slash has been the center of alot of controversy among lotr fans, and i thought it should be adressed is all. Again, i dont mean to offend anyone. ( in regards to the note from Goldsand.)
j_mercuryuk
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Post RE: Slash
on: September 16, 2005 02:12
I understand where your coming from now, but like people have said, it's more bad ff then slash that you're objecting to.
pippin_lovin_fool
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Post RE: Slash
on: September 16, 2005 06:26
Your right, j_mercuryuk, its mostly the bad Fic i dont like.....nothing really wrong w/ slash....and it can be funny, and sometimes moving......DOWN W/ BAD FICS!!!!!!!!!!!
HeriTavaril
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Post RE: Slash
on: September 17, 2005 08:20
Hi again,

Pippin I fully understand you not liking badly written fiction and that there are genres that you don't like or prefer not to read. Personally I don't like mpreg fiction so I don't tend to read it. However your original thread title "Slash is evil!!!" caught my eye and intrigued me. With a headline like that you are almost inviting debate and I find it very stimulating to see the different viewpoints of council members who all have a love of the works of Tolkien in common. However cringe-worthy badly written fiction is I couldn't call it evil - not when there are so many terrible things happening in the world - evil seems to strong a word. However lets keep this debate going if we can I want to hear what others think. BTW I am sorry if I misinterpreted your original point.

Regards

HT
pippin_lovin_fool
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Post RE: Slash
on: September 17, 2005 09:37
Too true, HT, "evil" is a bit too strong of a word...not that I
meant it to be, but still. And this is what forums are for, y'know? Open the eyes of a fellow council member...spark debate..... after all, we all clearly have a common love, so lets be cool w/ each other, yeah? My new thread title: "Bad slash gives a bad name to all well written fics (including slash)."
Peace.
BohemianWeasel
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Post RE: Slash
on: September 20, 2005 10:08
As a lifelong devotee of Tolkien's work I only saw the fanfics coming out after the films were released - though I'm sure there were a few before.
I feel that fanfics (of any genre) are a result of the author not wanting to let go of characters they've met and become attached to, or from self-doubt/ impatience at thinking they won't be able to create original characters that would have the same presence and power.

I've sampled a few different types of fanfic (of varying levels of quality) but to be honest I could live without most of them - even the well-written ones - as it just feels wrong to see Tolkien's characters doing anything 'un-Tolkienish' - like having an Elf with an orc in the biblical sense.

There are exceptions, however, for example:
obvious (and well-written) parodies, when done well they can be fabulous;
and Tolkien-ish stories, fics that seem to fill a gap in the existing history or flesh out a concept to a more satisfying level, or at least seem to fit in with the spirit of the existing work.
The best fic I've read to date was about Sam's years following Frodo's departure and before his own passing into the West, and completely believable in Tolkien's world - though written by another in their own words.

Either way, if you're going to write it, you need to know your Tolkien and have a rudimentary grasp of the English language, because when fanfics are bad they're ghastly.
pippin_lovin_fool
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Post RE: Slash
on: September 20, 2005 01:01
Beautiful insight,B. well put. kinda the point i was trying to get across. Guess it takes a well educated person to really open the eyes of others.
BohemianWeasel
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Post RE: Slash
on: September 20, 2005 06:56
Bloomin' eck, I hope you weren't referring to me as an educated person, I won't stand for it you know! he hee
pippin_lovin_fool
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Post RE: Slash
on: September 20, 2005 07:00
Heh. I can guarantee, you are more educated than i am. And by the way.....your art is incredible!!!!!!! I saw it in the member fan art....WOW!!!!!!! Detail, perscision, dedication....and i cant even draw smiley faces.....
HeriTavaril
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Post RE: Slash
on: September 21, 2005 06:30
Quote: it just feels wrong to see Tolkien's characters doing anything 'un-Tolkienish'

I know what you mean but I do think it's fun to have all these brave heroic types having to cope with more mundane things - such as; explaining to the wife why you came home covered in mud again, arguing with a teenage son or daughter, or simply having to deal with a mound of paperwork. That's before we even begin to consider poor Faramir if Eowyn gets PMT...Can you imagine what that must be like? The poor man would probably rather deal with Orcs any day.
pippin_lovin_fool
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Post RE: Slash
on: September 21, 2005 09:36
Poor Faramir....heh. I could just see Aragorn arguing with his son. "You need to be king after me!" his son: "NO!" A: " I did NOT go through all that with frodo to have my son not be king! NOW BE KING!!!!!" .....heh.
HeriTavaril
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Post RE: Slash
on: September 22, 2005 09:10
Hi Pippin I like your conversation between Aragorn and son, you should write a story round it. Bohemian Weasel I had a look at your artwork you are so talented - To get that good you must have practiced quite a bit - which is what a lot of writers of fan fiction are doing when they write their stories - Some of them might not be very good now but hopefully they too will improve with practice. I don't always publish my stories but I know I am better now than when I started - I will never be able to draw as well as you can though.

Regards

HT:heart:
pippin_lovin_fool
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Post RE: Slash
on: September 22, 2005 03:49
Thank you! Much appreciated kind comments....maybe i WILL write about aragorn and his kid....
j_mercuryuk
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Post RE: Slash
on: September 22, 2005 10:56
If you do tell us.
Charaters acting un-tolkien like works for comedy, but depending on what they chage it may not work in a serious fic.
newsgirl
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Post RE: Slash
on: September 23, 2005 12:07
Hate slash. One time I was on this lotr site and... well,I guess I don't really need to explain, but i'll just say, what would tolkien think if he saw this???

[Edited on 4/2/2006 by newsgirl]
Nienna-of-the-Valar
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Post RE: Slash
on: September 23, 2005 12:50
what would tolkien thinkifhe saw this???

Yes, but, there are plenty of people who have said the very same thing about the movies by Peter Jackson, and I for one am still glad that they exist.

Slash, when done well, is as good as any other well written fanfiction. Slash, when done poorly, is only just as bad as any other badly written fic. But if it's not your thing, then just don't read it I say.
Rulea
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Post RE: Slash
on: September 27, 2005 04:09
Slash, in my opinion is just disgusting. I don't enjoy stories where ppl of the same sex are into each other, but don't get the impression that I also hate gays and lesbians. I DO NOT!
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Light
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Post RE: Slash
on: September 27, 2005 05:34
I was serching the web for Elrond and Celebrian romantic stories and inevitably ran into slash. Being curious about everything I have tried reading some of it. Some stories were plain disgusting and I stopped the reading however there were few that did touch me emotionaly and I read them fully. One good example is Elrond/Melpomaen titled, "Sweetness and Gall." I even encourage people to read this one. I feel everything deserves to be given a chance. It may not be as bad as imagined.

p.s. I'm a girl who likes boys. :heart: Boys.

[Edited on 28/9/2005 by Light]
pippin_lovin_fool
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Post RE: Slash
on: October 02, 2005 06:53
I agree totally, light. Very good expression of views! I have of course, read some really bad and really good slash. Taking the advice of people on CoE, and my equally LotR obssessed buddies, i have ventured into the world of slash. I read a very good one the other day. It was on brandyhall.net . It was called "A world as clear as water". Very well done. It is the first of it's nature i have seen as well. I suggest it to people...though not those weak of heart, as this fic would be considered....well....a bit disturbing. It really looks into the darker possibilities of LotR, y'know, the "other side". Its a merry/pippin fic, but as i said...very well written...and so interesting. It's NC-17, so seriously dont read if dark stuff bothers you....but if it doesnt......i really suggestt his fic.
celebrin_uial
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Post RE: Slash
on: October 09, 2005 09:14
Upon reading this thread i often found myself wondering if any actual writers of slash have responded or read it.
I identify as a bisexual and was once a fan of slash in general, I even wrote some. Though I found the entire slash genre to be well uniform and uncreative.

Something bothered me about the whole making elrond gay, i just couldnt get over the fact that he was married to Celebrian; or that Aragorn married and loved Arwen deeply. Though I must admit I wasnt too cannon myself when i wrote it; i like to think i was one of the exceptions though, for example the one slash i did write involved a sort of triad (m/f/m) between Aragorn, Arwen, and Legolas, but i will end it there.

Slash I took to mean mostly homosexual pairings and the like, though i have heard it to mean hetero as well, just sexually explicit, something tawdry, unpolished, raw, much like sex itself (dont get me wrong, sex can be a beautiful thing, its just messy in my opinion and always will be, very few poets can ever make sex sound absolutly beuatiful)

Though what I wonder is, if there is a m/m; f/f pairing and no sex took place is it truely considered slash?

Slash is such a horrid word, it denotes such negativity that i think people who read it cant help but think they are reading something not worthy of true artistic merit, something unnatural, something uncreative. And for the most part I suppose the factory-produced Slash would fit into that category, but the exceptions to the rule would be the people who focus on the relationships, not the physical portion but the emotional journey, the torrents, the ecstacy of two souls in love, these i think are not worthy of the title slash but of true fanfiction, especially if they take cannon into account.

often i have found that my own fanfiction is labeled as Slash, though in truth I dont think it is at all. Yes one of the characters is bisexual but I have not messed with cannon, the character in question is of my own creation...so just because he is bisexual does that make the entire story slash?
(this is not a rhetorical question, i really wanna know)

Not sure if any of what i said made sense but there it is.
HeriTavaril
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Post RE: Slash
on: October 10, 2005 05:50
An interesting and thoughtful question Celebrin-uial. I have always taken slash to mean same gender pairings with more or less sex involved. I agree that a lot of what is out there is very formulaic but then for the most part those writing fan fiction aren't professional authors and some of them are quite young. I have tired writing slash myself and it is difficult to make it erotic as opposed to banal or sordid. We tend to be rather sex obsessed in the western world and I suppose our writing reflects that and yes celibate love is possible. It becomes difficult to define degrees of love when does the deep freindship or love that Sam and Frodo have cross the line into something else? How do you decribe what they have. Before Frodo goes away he, Sam and Rosie all live together I wouldn't call that a slash relationship and I doubt very much that Tolkien considered it anything other than innocent but some people will see it differently. Sorry if this is abit of a ramble - I suppose what I am trying to say is it depends upon your own point of view.

Regards
HT
celebrin_uial
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Post RE: Slash
on: October 10, 2005 07:16
true.
It does depend on point of view, and i quite agree wit you the western world today is rather sex obssesd and anything that is even borderline intimate is considered grounds for sexual adaptation rather than honest friendship. Yes teh world of faniction is quite young and unexperienced, I suppose that is why no one has published anything fanfiction like much the same way they have doen with the Star Wars and Star Trek franchises. though I find it a pity, because there are some excellent authors who have a good grasp on the world of tolkien.
9digithobbit
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Post RE: Slash
on: October 14, 2005 04:48
To me "slash" implies either same-sex intimacy or a same-sex relationship beyond friendship, regardless of how much intimacy is depicted or present in the story, so yeah if your OC is involved in either, then IMO it would be slash.

As to whether slash authors and readers have posted here, well I also have written some slash, still do sometimes, so the topic caught my eye right away ^__~.

As to the content/quality/originality of slash, it is an interesting point you both make about the ages of slash authors/fanfic authors in general... I have found that in the pairings I read, there seem to be a lot of more mature (age-wise or otherwise) authors writing, and I have found G-rated slash by those authors that focused on relationship only, and adult-rated slash, and everything else, and most of it is tasteful, appealing, emotionally satisfying and relatively original... and on the other hand, in my forays into other pairings, I have found a higher percentage of badfic. I wonder if a lot of the younger authors are drawn to different pairings?

I can certainly understand what you're saying, celebrin, about being bothered by seeing slashings of characters that are already in relationships in canon. I know a lot of people who argue that it doesn't make much difference, seeing as Tolkien would not have likely approved of any slash pairings of his characters. I don't really see it that way... I like it to be in-character and believable, which rules out a lot of pairings, for me. I like to be able to think, "well, maybe Tolkien just forgot to mention..." (joking... kinda) in a pairing of two unattached characters (or, at least, unattached at the time of the fic...) who have some canonical basis for at least knowing each other... But that's just me. I agree that it depends a lot on your point of view. I think I'm hangin' with about one percent of the lotr slashers, as far as pairings go, so I certainly can't cast the first stone there!
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