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Elvenstar

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Legolas' life?
on: January 07, 2003 08:21

Ok, his dad is the king of Mirkwood, that makes him the prince, I have that one down. He is tall, he has blonde hair and blue eyes. He is easy to get along with and rarely loses his temper. He has known Aragorn for a long time and he is definetly old. He left for the Gray Havens with Gimli in the Fourth Age.

But that doesn't help my crave.:cry: I need to know more about him! :cry: What ever happened to his mum?

Did he have any brothers or sisters?

How old was he?

Anything.:cry: I just need to know!:cry: Did he ever end up ruling Mirkwood?

Did he ever marry and have kids?:drool: I need to know!

Please help.:cry:

sepdet

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RE: Legolas' life?
on: May 13, 2003 08:10

evilechipmunk3 wrote:
in a book that i have titled "The Tolkien Reader" (out of print) there is an essay on elves and their physical features, as well as a samll piece of history aout Legolas. In one passage it describes Thranduil and his sons. Tolkien talks about how un-willing Thranduil is and how different his youngest son is, named Legolas. He also talks about his brothers, but does not mention them by name, and tells how they are very alike in their ways to thier father, Thranduil.

Oh, wicked, wicked of you! I have had to read The Tolkien Reader straight through twice now (all right, yes, I skimmed) to make sure I had not missed some reference or other. The essay on Fairy-tales and the nature of faeries is a truly good one, and I'm glad to have reread it, but no, there is not a whisper of Legolas or Thranduil anywhere within the pages of that book, unless I'm going senile.

I think something like that would've turned up before, at any rate. I am hardly the only one suffering from L.R.O.C.D. (Legolas Research Obsessive Compulsive Disorder) and I have done some scouring of fellow victims' websites, looking for details other people have found which I have not.

I think I have found every source (although I fervently hope I'm wrong). The one thing I don't have is a copy of Letters, in which Tolkien mentions a bit about Legolas' name and upbringing; for that, I have had to rely on friends typing and emailing me a copy (bad sep, no waybread).

evilechipmimk3 replied:
So sorry sepdet! You aren't going senile, but I am! (well actually that isn't anything new... ) I found the information in an essay that my dad had from college (he studied tokien in college lucky guy), but it wasn't Letters. My Grandma has kept every book and essay that he studied in college, and i have scoured every reference that isn't falling apart and moldy, and it was in an essay that Tolkien wrote about elves. I have no idea what the essay was, but I'm pretty sure that Tolkien was alive when my dad took the course, and there may be a slight chance that Tolkien wrote it for the college. I hope this can further aid your pains!

Oh goodness!

I have only at my disposal the HOME books I have read so far, and other obsessive compulsives on the web. So far no one has turned up that essay which you describe — I think, though I've only been hunting since February so I may be arrogant in thinking this — but I wish for bibliographic info on it. Gosh, it sounds like a find!

Well, to those of us with Legolas Research Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, anyway.

I'm not quite sure how to go about looking for it, although I suppose Rivka would be rolling eyes at me about now reminding me that real researchers use this thing called a Library with a Periodicals section.

evilechipmunk3 added:
Hey, sepdet, this is where our problem lies....i don't think you will be able to find the essay, becuase it was written or printed only for the college....i can try to find the college peridoicals site, but it won't be easy. I will try my hardest and absolute best to get it and find it, for all you Legolas Obsesive Compulsive people. Hope to hear from you!

[Edited on 30/5/2007 by cirdaneth]

Lasgalen

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RE: Legolas' life?
on: May 27, 2003 05:03

An Elf of Gondolin would not have a Sindarin name, since the Sindarin elves did not go there....

1) There were Sindarin Elves in Gondolin. Not all the inhabitants of Gondolin were Noldor.
2) The names of the Noldor given in the Silmarillion are Sindarin forms of the name, therefore, all Elves of Gondolin (Sindar or Noldor) have Sindarin names.

[Edited on 5/28/2003 by Lasgalen]

The_Last_Mariner_04

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RE: Legolas' life?
on: September 06, 2003 04:12

There's not much to add about the specific details in Legolas's life that has not been said already, but I always thought that it was interesting that out of all the elven-lords in Rivendell, Elrond chose Legolas. Perhaps it was because of his personality: Legolas is slow to anger, very jovial and light-hearted, even on Caradhras. He sounds much like a hobbit, which speaks to his upbringing. The Mirkwood elves in The Hobbit seemed very good-natured as well. This must have been what Legolas grew up around, and what makes him unique.

Faenauliel

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RE: Legolas' life?
on: September 30, 2003 06:29

What I don't see is any mention of Legolas' brothers, although I agree with the people who say an eldest son of the Wood-king, who looks like he keeps a pretty traditional hall, wouldn't have been spared to run off on errands and ride around learning wood-lore.

I think that this is more of a belief of the Edain..... Since Thranduil is immortal, there would be no pressing necessity for Legolas to 'be educated as a future King'. Therefore, in my opinion, he would probably have been free to do as he wished, eldest/only son or not....

Also, I don't believe he was seen as just 'running errands'. His delivering of 'messages' for his father would be more along the lines of the work of an Ambassador. If the message were important enough, or there was any possibility that a decision was to be made about the reply, who better to send than the son of the King?

Ithildin55

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RE: Legolas' life?
on: October 02, 2003 05:46

I suspect that Thranduil knew. I don’t think Gandalf would have asked him to keep Gollum there without him knowing the truth.

Even if he didn’t tell Thranduil at first, after talking with Gollum, Gandalf knew that the creature had been to Mordor. It wouldn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that Gollum could not have escaped from Sauron – he had to have been released – and he would have been followed. Though Gandalf had no way to know for certain that attack would come, he had to know the possibility existed. Thranduil needed to know what he was risking by keeping Gollum there and I don’t think Gandalf would have denied him that information.

This was all before Gandalf was completely certain that the ring Frodo had was the One Ring, but he was already suspicious enough of the fact that he must have known that holding Gollum was dangerous. Later the Wood-elves did come under attack and several Elves lost their lives as a result of Gollum’s presence in the Woodland Realm.

That Thranduil did not tell Legolas is another issue.

IMHO,
Ithildin55

sepdet

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RE: Legolas' life?
on: October 10, 2003 09:05

Chubaka wrote:
unrelated to this debate and i dont even know if people are still here and someone might have already said this but in the first message whoever it was said that legolas has blond hair. Im pretty sure thats not true because in the first book (near the end) right before legolas shoots somthing in the boats it says "his head was dark, crowned with the sharp whits pools of stars...."and if tolken compares his dark head with sharp white stars he probably shwing the contrast between them.....

On the other hand that description says Frodo could barely see Legolas at the time, and when Legolas then shoots it, he says he couldn't see what he shot at, because it was too dark. If Legolas couldn’t see, it’s not surprising Frodo saw him as a black shape against the stars. “dark head” sounds like a silhouette to me, not a hair color.

[Edited on 30/5/2007 by cirdaneth]

Ithildin55

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RE: Legolas' life?
on: October 11, 2003 06:03

On the subject of hair color – I offer the following excerpt from one of my essays:

In general Tolkien described Elves as "...tall, fair of skin and grey-eyed, though their locks were dark, save in the golden house of Finarfin; and their voices had more melodies than any mortal voice that now is heard." (LOTR, Appendix F)

And of the Sindar in particular he says: "Elwë himself had indeed long and beautiful hair of silver hue, but this does not seem to have been a common feature of the Sindar, though it was found among them occasionally, especially in the nearer or remoter kin of Elwë (as in the case of Cirdan). In general the Sindar appear to have very closely resembled the Exiles, being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe. Indeed they could hardly be told apart except by their eyes; for the eyes of all the Elves that had dwelt in Aman impressed those of Middle-earth by their piercing brightness. For which reason the Sindar often called them Lachend, pl. Lechind ‘flame- eyed’." (Quendi and Eldar, War of the Jewels, p384)

Though the statement characterizing most Elves as having dark hair, being from LOTR, is considered canon, it should be noted that in the drafts of the LoTR appendices, as well as in Tolkien’s earlier mythology, Elves were predominantly blond, and only the Noldor were dark haired. Christopher Tolkien wrote, “I pointed out that the words “’They were tall, fair of skin and grey-eyed, though their locks were dark, save in the golden house of Finrod [Finarfin]’ were originally written of the Noldor only, and not of all the Eldar…” (HoME XII, The Appendix on Languages, p. 77) The statement attributing dark hair to virtually all Elves is an emendation first appearing in the second edition of LOTR.

The color of Legolas’ hair has been an oft-debated subject. As Tolkien stated that most Sindarin Elves had dark hair, that would appear to be the obvious assumption, and by far the option with the most evidence to back it. But then, there is the paradoxical description of Legolas’ father, Thranduil, the Elvenking of The Hobbit: "...and at the head of a long line of feasters sat a woodland king with a crown of leaves upon his golden hair..." (Flies and Spiders, The Hobbit) Of course, the Elves of The Hobbit are from a much earlier and somewhat different mythology, and many details cannot be correlated directly to LOTR. (For instance, Glorfindel’s name and golden hair are relics of Tolkien’s earlier writings.) And even if one accepts that Thranduil had golden hair (though it cannot be conveniently explained in light of Tolkien’s later statements) it does not guarantee that his son did also. However, it does make it at least a slight possibility. Silver hair also seems less than likely, even given the somewhat nebulous possibility that Thranduil may have been somehow akin to Celeborn.

In Fellowship of the Ring we find this passage: "Frodo looked up at the Elf standing tall above him, as he gazed into the night, seeking a mark to shoot at. His head was dark, crowned with sharp white stars that glittered in the black pools of the sky behind." (The Great River, FotR) Keep in mind that in this instance it was very dark and Legolas was silhouetted against the night sky. Even light hair could have appeared dark under those circumstances. Again the evidence is inconclusive and the statement is open to interpretation.

Hair color among Silvan Elves is not specified by Tolkien; though it is described in The Hobbit as ‘gleaming’. And consider the following excerpt from FotR, giving the description of an Elf of Lórien. The speaker here is Haldir: "’There is one of my people yonder across the stream,’ he said; ‘though you may not see him.’ He gave a call like the low whistle of a bird, and out of a thicket of young trees an Elf stepped, clad in grey, but with his hood thrown back; his hair glinted like gold in the morning sun." (Lothlórien, FotR) This Elf could have been a member of Lórien’s Silvan population, or a Noldor with Vanyarin heritage, or even a silver-haired Sinda in golden morning light... So, though far from conclusive, there may still remain a possibility that for whatever reason, JRRT envisioned some Elves – Elves without and clear Vanyarin heritage – having golden hair.

Perhaps others know more, and I know it covers some points already discussed, but I hope it helps anyway,

Ithildin55

Neneithel

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RE: Legolas' life?
on: October 16, 2003 03:37

I think Mirkwood's position, long under threat from the orcs and the Necromancer makes it reasonable that an important person from that realm would not go bragging about his importance. Elves are never free with personal information. Elves in Mirkwood have even more reason to say little. Look how troubled Thranduil was by dwarves intruding in his realm. It is not a place where trust is freely given.

Neneithel

Ithildin55

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RE: Legolas' life?
on: October 16, 2003 05:16

Well, I was thinking about this, and dont you all think that Legolas could have gotten his hair color from his mother? I mean, we know that his father had light hair, but what about his mother? Little is known about her and maybe he got it from her? :dizzy: I dont really know if I am making sense but I am trying...

Also, before the movies even came out, people were painting pictures from Lotr, I have seen MANY of these, and they (mostly) have Legolas with light hair. Are they seeing something we arent?!
-NutMeg

I think the various artists are just making a logical assumption. Since Thranduil’s hair color is stated, but Legolas’ is not, they go with the ‘like father, like son’ rule – which is still, IMHO, a valid premise. As you noted, we know nothing about his mother, her heritage or her hair color. Even if she were Silvan, we know nothing about general trends in hair color among Silvan Elves – JRRT only described their hair as ‘gleaming’. There is Haldir’s companion – who might have been Silvan, with hair that ‘glinted like gold,’ but that, too, constitutes an uncertain reference.

Tolkien described the hair color of many of the Elves we meet in his stories, and those whose appearance ‘stood out from the crowd’ he described in more detail. As Legolas’ hair is not even mentioned – anywhere – could be an indication that there was nothing unusual about it. So, from that one could argue that he probably had dark hair.

On the other hand, since he was introduced as Thranduil’s son, and since Frodo would have been familiar with Bilbo’s description of the Elvenking, one could argue that the hobbit would likely have commented had there been a marked difference in hair color between father and son. So, from that one could argue that he probably had golden hair.

And given the known inconsistency arising from Tolkien’s continuously evolving vision of his world, one could also conclude that the lack of description indicates that either golden hair was less unusual among Elves than Tolkien’s other comments indicate, or Legolas had dark hair like most other Sindarin Elves. So we go in circles.

Middle-earth is so much fun… The only question left to answer is: What color do you want it to be?

Ithildin55

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RE: Legolas' life?
on: October 16, 2003 05:44

legolas is a strange cookie at any rate.

When everyone in LOTR's is introduced its like "aragorn son of arathorn,gimli son of gloin, Samwise son of hamfast?(cant quite remember that one, im probably wrong)" but with legolas its "legolas of the woodland roe"

Perhaps he doesnt choose to follow his fathers footsteps, perhaps his only cares are with nature and hunting and tracking. Thats why he would have been gaurding/tracking gollum. ? perhaps perhaps not.

To Neneithel’s excellent comments I will add this little point:

By the time Aragorn introduced Legolas to Éomer, they were a long, long way from Mirkwood, and it was very unlikely that the Rohirrim knew the Elvenking by name if they even knew he existed. Aragorn had lived among the Rohirrim, so he probably had a fair grasp of what they did and did not know about other kingdoms in ME. The very fact that Legolas was an Elf was enough to impress Éomer.

Ithildin55

atalante_star

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RE: Legolas' life?
on: December 14, 2003 09:55

So I can safely ASSUME that Legolas' ship sunk, and he pobably drowned, even though he can walk on snow.

Um, how on earth do you come to that conclusion? The evidence you present says to me something totally opposite.

Then Legolas built a grey ship in Ithilien, and sailed down Anduin and so over Sea; and with him, it is said, went Gimli the Dwarf. And when that ship passed an end was come in Middle-earth of the Fellowhip of the Ring.

Yes, Legolas did sail over the Sea. No, he didn't sail from the Grey Havens - but the Grey Havens were not the only Elf-Havens in the World. "And when that ship passed" = when his shop passed through the barrier between Middle-earth and the Blessed Realm. And then there were no more of the Fellowship of the Ring on Middle-earth - they were in Aman.

Ithildin55

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RE: Legolas' life?
on: January 03, 2004 06:55

Mae govannen Tinuviel_Elena,

Legolas reminds me quite a bit of both Aragorn and Faramir, for several reasons (all assumed, of course). For one thing, he seems to prefer to be judged by his deeds and his actions, not by his name or lineage. That reminds me of Aragron and his many names, especially the alias (which escapes me now) that he used in Minas Tirith while in the service of Denethor's father.

Aragorn’s alias in Minas Tirith was Thorongil –Eagle of the Star

The theories surrounding him being the youngest son of Thranduil somehow keep making me think back to Faramir. I somehow picture Legolas as being lower in his father's favor for many reasons: partly because of the simple fact that he's the youngest, and not likely to come to the throne, and partly because he's so different in temperament from Thranduil-I see parallels between Thranduil/Legolas and Denethor/Faramir. This would explain why he would be on guard duty (a seemingly lowly task for a prince), and why he was risked on the dangerous road to Rivendel and subsequently to Mordor.

A fascinating interpretation! And just as valid as anyone else’s – though theirs might be quite different. But that’s the beauty of Tolkien’s world, is it not?

In reference to the comment:

By the time Aragorn introduced Legolas to Éomer, they were a long, long way from Mirkwood, and it was very unlikely that the Rohirrim knew the Elvenking by name if they even knew he existed. Aragorn had lived among the Rohirrim, so he probably had a fair grasp of what they did and did not know about other kingdoms in ME. The very fact that Legolas was an Elf was enough to impress Éomer.

Would Eomer have known the names of Aragorn or Gloin? If he knew of Gloin, a run-of-the-mill dwarf from that far away, then he would certainly know who Thranduil was. It brings to mind several theories as to why Aragorn introduced Legolas in this manner. It could be that it's not customary for the folk of Mirkwood to take the title of "son of", and Aragorn was observing Legolas' native custom. It could be that Legolas does such a good job of distancing himself from his father's title that it's merely overlooked and forgotten most of the time.

I don’t think there is any indication that Éomer would have known Gimli’s father’s name. In re-reading the passage from The Two Towers, we see that the way the introductions unfolded influenced the information that was given.

At first Aragorn introduced only himself to Éomer – and only as Strider, out of the North.

When Éomer asked if they were all elvish folk, Aragorn explained that only one of them was an Elf – “Legolas of the Woodland Realm in distant Mirkwood.”

Aragorn did not introduce Gimli – the Dwarf introduced himself in answer to Éomer’s challenge. And since Éomer gave his own father’s name – Gimli did likewise.

Aragorn introduced himself as “Aragorn son of Arathorn, and am called Elessar, the Elfstone, Dúnadan, the heir of Isildur, Elendil’s son of Gondor” only when he declared his heritage and title before Éomer and showed him the sword of Elendil re-forged. Éomer may not have who Arathorn was, but he surely knew the names of Elendil and Isildur.

It had always struck me as odd that he wasn't referred to as "Son of Thranduil" of "Prince of Mirkwood" more often, or treated by Tolkien and the Fellowship as royalty, especially once it was seen how Tolkien, Aragorn and Gandalf regarded the sons of Elrond (who were actually of less Elven lineage than Legolas). It's disappointing and surprising that Tolkien never told us more about such a major character, especially an Elf, the history of which he so delighted in writing about.

Yes, it is a bit of a mystery – hence the many discussions! However, in LOTR, Tolkien was focusing not on the Great and their deeds (some of which were not so great), but on the no-so-great and their Great Deeds. IMHO.

Thranduil’s title of King was a political title, and as such was respected by the other elven rulers, but that is not the same as royal lineage among the elven races.

Thranduil was the son of Oropher, whose lineage is nowhere specifically listed by Tolkien. In UT, he is implied to have been a Sindarin prince – whatever that means, and Celeborn’s greeting to Legolas in FotR could possibly imply that they were related to him - and in at least one of Celeborn’s histories he is envisioned as a relative of Thingol.
“Legolas is translated Greenleaf (II 106, 154) a suitable name for a Woodland Elf, though one of royal and originally Sindarin line.” Letter #297
This quote could be referring to ‘royalty’ only in the sense of the political title – or Tolkien could have envisioned that Thranduil was indeed related somehow to Thingol. However, even at best - his lineage in no way compares to that of Elrond and his sons.

Tolkien was also, with the tale of LOTR, bringing to a close the age of the Elves, thus their deeds figured less prominently in the tale. I’m sure if Tolkien had had been able to foresee the popularity of the Elf Legolas, he would have written more about him. But, then he might have turned out to be a much less interesting character… It’s much more fun this way, IMHO!

Ithildin55

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RE: Legolas' life?
on: January 08, 2004 06:20

Originally posted by Tinuviel_Elena:
Sorry-I'm dense (and can't concentrate with the kids screaming! LOL). Could you explain that a bit further?

Kids screaming, huh? LOL! I can identify – I have 9. And yes, I can attest that it definitely makes it hard to concentrate…

OK, I’ll try to clarify – but you might want to read this when the kids are quiet… lol!

There might have been something about this in Letters, but I found this in HoME 12:

From “Last Writings” in Peoples of Middle-earth, HoME XII
From the section regarding essay fragments pertaining to Glorfindel:

This note by Christopher precedes the text:
“In the summer of 1938, when my father was pondering The Council of Elrond in The Lord of the Rings, he wrote: ‘Glorfindel tells of his ancestry in Gondolin.’ More than thirty years later he took up the question of whether Glorfindel of Gondolin and Glorfindel of Rivendell were indeed one and the same…”

from the text of the second essay:

“The name is in fact derived from the earliest work on the mythology: The Fall of Gondolin, composed in 1916-1917, in which the Elvish language that ultimately became that of the type called Sindarin was in a primitive and unorganized form and its relation with the High-elven type (itself very primitive) was still haphazard.”

“Its use in The Lord of the Rings is one of the cases of the somewhat random use of the names found in the older legends now referred to as The Silmarillion, which escaped reconsideration in the final published form of The Lord of the Rings. This is unfortunate, since the name is now difficult to fit into Sindarin, and cannot possibly be Quenyarin. Also in the now organized mythology, difficulty is presented by the things recorded of Glorfindel in The Lord of the Rings, if Glorfindel of Gondolin is supposed to be the same person as Glorfindel of Rivendell.”

As to the possible repetition of the name: Tolkien said, “The repetition of so striking a name, though possible, would not be credible. No other major character in the Elvish legends as reported in The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings has a name borne by another Elvish person of importance.”

The text goes on to explain how Glorfindel, after being slain by the Balrog, went to Mandos, was later re-embodied and eventually returned to Middle-earth in the Second Age. It also deals with other problematical details like the statement in FotR that Glorfindel was one of the “lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas… who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm.” As he points out “The Sindar had never left Middle-earth.”

So, though Tolkien may have from the outset envisioned the character being a survivor from Gondolin, it was more like he was re-using a well-liked character from an outdated story than trying to continue with him. And it was later, after LOTR was published that he set himself to correlate the two stories and meld them into one continuous history. Which he did admirably well, I might add.

BTW, lol about Zoe! My hubby nixed a few too…

Anyway, hope that helps.
Ithildin55

[Edited on 9/1/2004 by Ithildin55]

Hope_and_Memory

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RE: Legolas' life?
on: January 12, 2004 01:11

Very interesting discussion. And the articles are interesting too, though somewhat confusing, all the different but well possible theories. I think we will never know, and we can fill in the gaps for ourselves as we see fit.

But it reminds me of something said on one of the EE dvd documentaries, about Tolkiens books, when the publishers asked for a sequal to the Hobbit, instead he came up with the Lordof the Rings, and later realised that some facts didn't match with the Hobbit, so he had to correct the
'Hobbit", that part where Bilbo meets Gollum and gets the ring.
To be able to let the story presented there match that of the "Lord of the Rings", so he re-wrote that part of the Hobbit if I correctly understand it.

Same goes here with Legolas IMHO, thus all the differences and sometimes contradicting puzzling facts.

Tolkien had never completed his life work, of course.
He died before he could, maybe he was planning to write more about Legolas, correct any mistakes/contradictions, maybe not. We will never know I guess.

DomesticGoddess

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RE: Legolas' life?
on: April 29, 2004 05:16

Leave it to me to be the differing opinion about this, but here you go...

I think there is only ONE Legolas, TWO Glorfindels. WHY? Because in a biography of JRRT, I read that he had MISTAKENLY used the name Glorfindel twice.

Really though, if that is the man's only mistake, he's doing pretty good, eh? Look at other fantasy fiction...there are so many glaring errors and idiosyncracies.

Ithildin55

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RE: Legolas' life?
on: July 03, 2004 07:23

Here is what Tolkien had to say about Legolas taking Gimli with him:

Then Legolas built a grey ship in Ithilien; and sailed down Anduin and so over Sea; and with him, it is said, went Gimli the Dwarf. And when that ship passed an end was come in Middle-earth of the Fellowship of the Ring.”
Appendix B, LOTR

But when King Elessar gave up his life Legolas followed at last the desire of his heart and sailed over Sea.

Here follows one of the last noted in the Red Book.

We have heard tell that Legolas took Gimli Glôin’s son with him because of their great friendship, greater that any that has been between Elf and Dwarf. If this is true, then it is strange indeed: that a Dwarf should be willing to leave Middle-earth for any love, or that the Eldar should receive him, or that the Lord’s of the West should permit it. But it is said that Gimli went also out of desire to see again the beauty of Galadriel; and it may be that she, being mighty among the Eldar, obtained this grace for him. More cannot be said of this matter.
Appendix A, RotK

And yes, Legolas' destination would have been Tol Eressëa.

ithildin *(

elvishmusician

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RE: Legolas' life?
on: July 20, 2004 09:32

I agree there is no way of knowing the age of Legolas, however here are some hints as to his age-

-Legolas's father at the beginning of the first age is mentioned as one of the Sindarin Elves who returned the scattered Elves to wisdom along with Elrond.

-Legolas's father was also king of Mirkwood before Sauron's fortress in Barad- Dur was finished (c 1600 years into the first age), this makes Thranduil at around 4800 years old, although he would have to be older than that because you can't become King at birth well you can but you usually don't.

-Just thinking about a lot of elves don't begin ruling until they are quite older eg. maybe 2000 years or so.

-This would place Thranduil at around the same age as Elrond and Elrond was 3000(I don't have time to check exact figures) when Arwen was born. (the books don't give info about her older brothers)

-To sum it up Legolas was probably about the same age as Elrond's children and because Legolas is the eldest whereas Arwen has two older brothers I'd say that he'd be closer to their age but their age isn't mentioned either so Arwen's age is probably the closest figure you'd find

elvishmusician

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RE: Legolas' life?
on: July 23, 2004 02:02

Ithildin55

Thank you for taking the time to read my post and reply to it! Also I found those websites very interesting. Here are some things to elaborate on what i said and why i said it.

-Legolas's father at the beginning of the first age is mentioned as one of the Sindarin Elves who returned the scattered Elves to wisdom along with Elrond.
I’m not familiar with this quote; can you tell me where it is found? Tolkien has quite a few books and I don’t have them all memorized yet!

-I'll try and find it for you, I am sure I read it because I had a hard time understanding it at the time and read over it a number of times before completely understanding it, however I may have misquoted it. I am in the process of rereading all my Tolkein books again so I should find it.

-Legolas's father was also king of Mirkwood before Sauron's fortress in Barad- Dur was finished (c 1600 years into the first age), this makes Thranduil at around 4800 years old, although he would have to be older than that because you can't become King at birth well you can but you usually don't.
Actually, the Sindarin adventurers moved into the vales of Anduin before Sauron even began rebuilding Barad-dûr – so they moved east before about 1000 II. If Thranduil was born before the ruin of Doriath, he would be older than Elrond, though not necessarily by much.

- I have since also found in the Unfinished Tales that Thranduil had his 'realm' established by the time of Isildur as it says in the 'Diaster of the Gladden Fields' (this quote comes at a time after the Isildur's finding of the ring of power just before his death) that when they were first attacked by the orcs Isildur said to Elendur 'There is cunning and design here! We have no hope of help : Moria and Lorien are now far behind and Thranduil is four days march ahead'

-Just thinking about a lot of elves don't begin ruling until they are quite older eg. maybe 2000 years or so.
I’m not sure about this one, but I don’t think that was necessarily true.

-This is pure opinion as most elves that you know about are older when they begin to rule. I thought about it logically because the people who rule before them live longer and therefore they don't get to rule until that person has died unless they find their own land to rule. As can be seen in the Lord of the Rings most elves don't rule until they are quite old eg. Galadriel and Celeborn didn't rule until after they travelled across the sea during the Noldor rebellion(that was my understanding- though the histories of Celeborn and Galadriel do differ between the "unfinished tales" and LOTR), this was back in the time of Melkor and the Simarils. Elrond didn't rule until after Gilgalad died fighting in the first (well first major) war against Sauron when Isildur took the ring.

-This would place Thranduil at around the same age as Elrond and Elrond was 3000(I don't have time to check exact figures) when Arwen was born. (the books don't give info about her older brothers)
Elladan and Elrohir were born in 130 III and Arwen was born in 241 III.
Elrond was born in 525 I and which would make him 6517 at the beginning of the War of the Ring. He was 3608 when he married Celebrian in 109 III (if I did the math right )

-To sum it up Legolas was probably about the same age as Elrond's children and because Legolas is the eldest whereas Arwen has two older brothers I'd say that he'd be closer to their age but their age isn't mentioned either so Arwen's age is probably the closest figure you'd find
This is an interesting opinion, but there is no real evidence to support it.

- I agree that there is no real evidence to support this theory but Elrond is the one elf that gives us an idea of how old elves are when they usually have children and how many years between children etc. I just went with this as it was an available piece of info. Thranduil may not be exactly Elrond's age but I think he would have to be close.

sindarinelvish

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RE: Legolas' life?
on: July 31, 2004 03:48

In THE HOBBIT Thranduil is described as being pretty greedy and suspicious of outsiders. (I.e. provincial)

I am making the leap to say if he was suspicious of outsiders, he probably believe Elrond was really far out there for letting all kinds of folks in his house! So how much importance could Thandruil place on a council metting called by Elrond.

I'm also sure somewhere in the text Legolas is described as rebellious or needing to prove himself.

He could appear this way in his father's eyes because he obviously had a history of fraternizing with rangers (knew Aragorn well and knew who he was which was a state secret) and he certainly took to the dwarf pretty quickly for a son of Thranduil.

This could lead us to conclude

Legolas probably wasn't his eldest son because

1. why waste the crown prince on Elrond's council?
2. It's not in T.'s interest to let his only heir go trotting off on some dangerous and deadly mission where he is liable to get killed.
3. The crown prince would probably be the leader of the kingdom's army; in time of war (Dol Goldur was getting to be a pretty nasty place) you don't let your commander head out with his buds on an adventure.

Just a few thoughts...

SindyE Nad dithen carnen an gwend.

Ithildin55

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RE: Legolas' life?
on: August 01, 2004 07:01

Hi, Sindarinelvish, thanks for sharing your thoughts.

It is fun to think deeply and draw conclusions about things Tolkien didn’t spell out in detail for us, and it is fun to debate the pros and cons of the conclusions. Often the best way to find out if one’s conclusions are valid is to post them where they can be debated by others who know the books well – and there are quite a few members here who do.

I happen to have some differing opinions on these points, and of course, I welcome further discussion also.

In THE HOBBIT Thranduil is described as being pretty greedy and suspicious of outsiders. (I.e. provincial)
I am making the leap to say if he was suspicious of outsiders, he probably believe Elrond was really far out there for letting all kinds of folks in his house! So how much importance could Thandruil place on a council metting called by Elrond.

Though Tolkien described the Elvenking as having a ‘weakness’ for treasure, I think Thranduil’s conduct during the story showed that he was not greedy, at least not to the extent that it interfered with his good judgment. Instead, he showed himself to be a wise ruler. He stopped to help the people of Esgaroth and made no demand for treasure for himself once he saw that the Dwarves were still alive, and at Erebor he made it clear that he would tarry long before beginning a war over gold. And as to his treatment of the Dwarves, well, I think he had good reason to be suspicious of them. They refused to answer his questions or tell their reasons for being in his realm, and they had stirred up those awful giant spiders.

Here are links to a couple of articles that examine the character of Thranduil from canon. You might find them interesting:
A Case of Mistaken Identity by Coriel
http://www.storiesofarda.com/chapterview.asp?sid=1476&cid=6120
In Defense of the Elvenking by Karri
http://www.storiesofarda.com/chapterview.asp?sid=1551&cid=6459

Tolkien doesn’t give any clues as to what Thranduil thought of Elrond for letting all sorts of folk into his house, but I’m sure the Elvenking was aware that Elrond’s situation in Imladris was quite different (for a number of reasons) than his own.

As ShadowXElf correctly mentioned, Legolas went to Rivendell to report Gollum’s escape. No one knew there was even going to be a Council until after he arrived.

I'm also sure somewhere in the text Legolas is described as rebellious or needing to prove himself.

Hmmm, I am not aware of any passage that describes Legolas as rebellious or needing to prove himself. Do you have a reference? Personally, I thought the character came across as pretty self-assured in LOTR. And in every instance where his will was challenged, he yielded to the leader in charge (even to his own disgrace in Lórien) and proved a faithful, supportive companion throughout the quest.

He could appear this way in his father's eyes because he obviously had a history of fraternizing with rangers (knew Aragorn well and knew who he was which was a state secret) and he certainly took to the dwarf pretty quickly for a son of Thranduil.

It is very possible that Legolas and Aragorn had met before the Council, but we can’t say for sure because we just don’t have enough information to draw that conclusion. Nor is there is any evidence that Legolas knew who Aragorn was before the Council. He may have known it, if they had indeed met before, and I like to think that they had – but there is no evidence in canon to prove the view.
And there were a lot of unusual factors that worked together to foster the formation of his friendship with Gimli during the course of the Quest, beginning with the fact that Gandalf asked them to be friends – at the doors of Moria, just a few days before the Wizard fell in his battle with the Balrog.

This could lead us to conclude
Legolas probably wasn't his eldest son because

Yes, it is possible that Legolas had an older brother – unfortunately, it is not a conclusion that can be supported from canon.

1. why waste the crown prince on Elrond's council?

Legolas was taking the news of Gollum’s escape to Rivendell in hopes that Gandalf would get the message from Elrond. Thranduil may have known Gollum’s significance – though he clearly did not tell Legolas, and if so, sending his (oldest/only?) son to bear a message of such import would seem quite appropriate.

2. It's not in T.'s interest to let his only heir go trotting off on some dangerous and deadly mission where he is liable to get killed.

In Tolkien’s world princes and kings did not stay home where it was safe when war broke out, they usually rode out at the head of their troops. Thranduil was with Oropher at Dagorlad. Of course that doesn’t mean it wasn’t difficult for Thranduil to see Legolas set off on the Quest.

3. The crown prince would probably be the leader of the kingdom's army; in time of war (Dol Goldur was getting to be a pretty nasty place) you don't let your commander head out with his buds on an adventure.

I imagine that Legolas was probably very valuable to his home realm and his abilities were undoubtedly sorely missed when the Woodland Realm was attacked, but the crucial nature of the Quest took precedence.

This is a good place for debate; there are some very knowledgeable folks that meet around here!

Ithildin *(

narithil

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RE: Legolas' life?
on: August 08, 2004 09:04

Okay, I found this stuff while looking up info for my research paper, which as I mentioned earlier, was examining the possibilities of one or two Legolases (It took my teacher a little while to figure out what I was even talking about).

First, Legolas does not translate into anything itself directly. The closest are Laigolas=green-leaf and Legolast=keen-sight. Legolas is a confusion of the two (p.267, The Book of Lost Tales I). I'm not quite sure where I found this quote, but I'm almost positive that it was in an essay about Glorfindel written in response to his "revival" from the dead. Anyway, it said, "This repitition of so striking a name, though possibe, would not be credible. No other major character in the Elvish legends as reported in The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings has a name borne by another Elvish person of importance." Well, in my opinion, this name is rather "striking."

Legolas of Gondolin was known for his impeccable eyesight (hence the name keen-sight). He could even see through the darkness of Melko (p. 191, The Book of Lost Tales II). In LOTR, Legolas sees and shoots down the Nazgul's beast even in the darkness of the clouds comming from the South and East (Mordor) (p. 435, FOTR).

In the Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, he wrote, "The Balrog is a survivor of the First Age... It is observable that only the Elf knows what the thing is- and doubtless Gandalf (but we all know that Gandalf has knowledge that is not from Middle-earth). This may be just saying that balrogs are remembered only in Elvish campfire stories, or it could mean that he had actually seen one before.

One final "chew on this" fact. In FOTR, Legolas is introduced to us as "a strange Elf clad in green and brown" (p. 269). Legolas of Gondolin belonged to the House of Tree (again, no idea where I found that, blast my note-taking skills!) whose raiment was green.

Did any one else notice that through the entire story, Legolas refers to himself (well actuall, he is identifying himself with all of the people of Mirkwood, as foreign royalty often does) as Silvan until he sees the gulls. Then he says in ROTK, "...Deep in the hearts of all my kindred lies the sea-longing..." (p. 154). Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that a problem of the Sindar?

The only problem that I see in the connection of two Legolases into one is the fact that Legolas of Gondolin went to Tol Eressea, but LOTR Legolas has never seen the sea. But, I'm sure that if Tolkien had known that his other works would be published, he would have smothed out that problem.

atalante_star

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RE: Legolas' life?
on: August 09, 2004 03:14

First, Legolas does not translate into anything itself directly. The closest are Laigolas=green-leaf and Legolast=keen-sight. Legolas is a confusion of the two.

To quote Tolkien:

"Legolas is translated Greenleaf (II 106, 154) a suitable name for a Woodland Elf, though one of royal and originally Sindarin line.[...]Technically, Legolas is a compound (according to rules) of S[indarin] laeg 'viridis' fresh and green, and go-lass 'collection of leaves, folliage'." (Letters #297)

"Legolas means 'green-leaves', a woodland name - dialectal form of pure Sindarin laegolas: *lassë (High-elven lasse, S. las(s)) 'leaf'; *gwa-lassa/*gwa-lassië 'collection of leaves, folliage' (H.E. laica, S. laeg (seldom used, usually replaced by calen), woodland leg). (Letters #211)"

One final "chew on this" fact. In FOTR, Legolas is introduced to us as "a strange Elf clad in green and brown" (p. 269). Legolas of Gondolin belonged to the House of Tree (again, no idea where I found that, blast my note-taking skills!) whose raiment was green.

Legolas of Gondolin being of the Tree is mentioned several times in BoLT 2.

But I would say that, if anything, this would suggest that there were two Legolases. The House of the Tree fought with iron-studded club or with slings - they were not one of the main archer Houses. Their lord Galdor survived the downfall of Gondolin, and it is possible that he lived in the Falas until the Third Age, as an elf called Galdor of the Havens was present at the Council of Elrond. If the Galdor and the Legolas at the Council were both of the House of the Tree, I'm sure that mention would have been made of that.

And to quote from one of our articles on Legolas:

In Book of Lost Tales 2, there are several references to one "Legolas Greenleaf of the House of the Tree" who served as guide for the refugees of Gondolin. There are two obvious reasons why this can't be the son of Thranduil. First, as noted above, Tolkien decided "Legolas" was a Silvanized spelling of a Sindarin name, and that makes no sense for a resident of Gondolin, whose Elves were Noldor. Second, in FOTR, Legolas tells the Fellowship that the elves of Eregion are a race that is strange to him. Those elves were Noldor, many of them refugees from Gondolin. Christopher Tolkien therefore identifies "Legolas Greenleaf of the House of the Tree" and "Legolas Greenleaf son of Thranduil" as two different people. Legolas of Gondolin only appears in Tolkien's very early writings, long before he began to write LOTR, when he was still calling Noldor "Gnomes". Tolkien's story, characters, and world evolved and changed significantly after that. Legolas' name is one of a great many that appear in Tolkien's early writings and are later reused and given to someone entirely different.

I would tend to agree with that

Ithildin55

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RE: Legolas' life?
on: August 10, 2004 04:55

Did any one else notice that through the entire story, Legolas refers to himself (well actuall, he is identifying himself with all of the people of Mirkwood, as foreign royalty often does) as Silvan until he sees the gulls. Then he says in ROTK, "...Deep in the hearts of all my kindred lies the sea-longing..." (p. 154). Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that a problem of the Sindar?

Hello Narithil

Legolas clearly identified with the Silvan culture of his people though his lineage was, in fact, Sindarin. Even so, the Silvan Elves were not immune to the sea-longing either.

"The Silvan Elves were Middle Elves according to the Numenorean classification, though unknown to the Atani until later days: for they were like the Sindar Teleri, but were laggards in the hindmost companies who had never crossed the Misty Mountains and established small realms on either side of the Vales of Anduin. (Of these Lorien and the realm of Thranduil in Mirkwood were survivors in the Third Age.) But they were never wholly free of an unquiet and a yearning or the Sea which at times drove some of them to wander from their homes."
from Peoples of Middle-earth (HoME XII) II, The Atani and their Languages.(37) (emphasis mine)

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narithil

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RE: Legolas' life?
on: August 11, 2004 08:06

There is really little evidence to support either Legolas theory (i.e. one or two) strongly; therefore, anyone can believe whatver he or she likes. I believe that if given more time, Tolkien would have connected the stories into one Legolas, but no one will ever really know unless we raise Tolkien from the dead to ask him. So, it really is just a matter of opinion. I still enjoy hearing evidence from both sides, though.

cavear_and_cigarettes

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RE: Legolas' life?
on: August 12, 2004 02:37

I believe that if given more time, Tolkien would have connected the stories into one Legolas

I absolutely agree. as he covered up his Glorfindel mistake, he would have done the same with Legolas.

also as a side note: when Tolkien wrote LotR he revised certain chapters of the Hobbit (ie. the ones with Gollum) to make an easier, more logical segue into his new book(s). seeing as there is more than one example of his "living" (growing, changing) literature, I think it is fair to assume that more would have been said of Legolas if he had noticed the discrepancies.

Ithildin55

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RE: Legolas' life?
on: August 13, 2004 09:43

Actually, I believe there is substantial evidence against Legolas of Gondolin and Legolas of Mirkwood being the same person, beginning with Tolkien’s own words to that effect.
1. Tolkien placed Legolas of Gondolin in the Blessed Realm long before he chose the name for Thranduil’s son.

Legolas 'or Green-leaf was a man of the Tree, who led the exiles over Tumladin in the dark, being night-sighted, and he liveth still in Tol Eressëa named by the Eldar there Laiqalassë; but the book of Rumil saith further hereon.' (The Book of Lost Tales II, The Fall of Gondolin, Commentary, sections $2, p. 218 Del Rey ed.)

2. Christopher Tolkien clearly interpreted them as being separate characters and refers to Legolas of Gondolin as being ‘this earlier Legolas’. He also referred to them as separate entries in the index of names. And while Christopher’s work has not proven infallible, I see no reason to doubt his conclusion here, especially in light of further evidence.

In the tale appears the keen-sighted Elf Legolas Greenleaf, first of the names of the Fellowship of the Ring to appear in my father's writings (see p. 218 on this earlier Legolas), followed by Gimli (an Elf) in the Tale of Tinuviel. (BoLT II, The Fall of Gondolin, Commentary, section vii, Del Rey ed..)

3. There is also the very important matter of the name itself. When reconciling the two Glorfindels, Tolkien was concerned about the way Glorfindel’s name would not fit into Sindarin, and, in fact, he couldn’t fit Legolas in either – that’s why he styled it as a Silvan name. There’s no way he could have explained it away for a Sindarin Elf, let alone a Noldorin Elf.

4. It would be an awful stretch to reconcile the history of Legolas of Gondolin with Legolas of Mirkwood. The placement of the latter as Thranduil’s son and what Tolkien later wrote about the history of Thranduil and Oropher, make it unlikely that he considered them to have any connection with Gondolin or the Legolas in the earlier version of ‘The Fall of Gondolin.’

5. Legolas of Gondolin was exceptionally “night-sighted” and, for all his keen-eyed observations in LOTR, Legolas of the Fellowship often noted that the darkness hindered his sight. While his sight was obviously far better than the other’s, it seemed the darkness affected him proportionately. I don’t think there was any mention of his night vision being extraordinary in any way.

I personally don’t think Tolkien would have tried to reconcile these two characters. As the Sil was not yet published when he addressed the problem of the two Glorfindels, he could easily have chosen to just change the first Glorfindel’s name or just leave him out – but he didn’t. So, I think if Tolkien had wanted to reconcile the two Legolas characters, he would have. However, IIRC, when Tolkien re-worked The Fall of Gondolin for the Sil, he left out the character of Legolas, thus there was no need to ‘reconcile’ a current character with one that existed only in an earlier version of the story – a version which he had no intention of ever publishing.

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LadyEowyn_Of_Rohan

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RE: Legolas' life?
on: August 13, 2004 12:26

5. Legolas of Gondolin was exceptionally “night-sighted” and, for all his keen-eyed observations in LOTR, Legolas of the Fellowship often noted that the darkness hindered his sight. While his sight was obviously far better than the other’s, it seemed the darkness affected him proportionately. I don’t think there was any mention of his night vision being extraordinary in any way.

FotR, "A Journey in the Dark"
His [Frodo's] senses were sharper and more aware of things that could not be seen. One sign of change that he soon had noticed was that he could see more in the dark than any of his companions, save perhaps Gandalf.

I agree that the two Legolas' aren't the same, and Legolas of Gondolin was just a character from Tolkien's earlier writings, later discarded, though he liked the name. If Legolas of the Fellowship could see better than almost all of the Elves of Gondolin, he probably would have been at least noted in the quote above.

narithil

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RE: Legolas' life?
on: August 14, 2004 04:03

Thank you, cavear_and_cigarettes (by the way is the name from "Killer Queen"?), for agreeing with me.

The whole question of one or two Legolases can be solved by answering one question. If Tolkien had prepared his other works for a final publishing, would he have connected this Legolas to that in LOTR, or would he have just changed his name?

Perhaps he simply found this name while reading over his old writings and liked it so much that he had to use it, and thus, decided to call it a "Silvanized" name. But, perhaps he liked this character that he had made so much that he revived him for LOTR. Tolkien never meant for his other works to be published, and certainly not in the state that they are now in, so it is impossible to say what he would have done. It is also impossible for Christopher Tolkien to say what his father was thinking. How many of us really meddle with what our parents do and know what goes through their heads? That is why I tend not to rely on things that Christopher Tolkien has written. What he wrote about Legolas is no more than his oppinion of what his father was thinking.

True, Tolkien did say that Legolas' name was "Silvanized," but he also had to have a reason for naming someone obviously not Silvan by this name.

The House of the Tree fought with iron-studded club or with slings - they were not one of the main archer Houses.

No where does it say that Legolas was cripple in battle unless he used his bow. We're talking two ages to learn a new skill.

So, when it is simplified into would Tolkien make them one or change the name, I am a personal believer that he would have made them the same, but that does not make me right. It all comes down to a matter of oppinion. As long as anyone is able to present evidence for either argument, there will be no definate answer to the question. There is no evidence that can clearly descriminate the two, nor is there enough to clearly bring them together. Once again, it is all a matter of personal oppinion.

Ithildin55

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RE: Legolas' life?
on: August 16, 2004 08:52

Originally posted by: narithil:
The whole question of one or two Legolases can be solved by answering one question. If Tolkien had prepared his other works for a final publishing, would he have connected this Legolas to that in LOTR, or would he have just changed his name?

Actually, the answer to this ‘one question’ would be nothing but speculation.

The way to answer the question of whether there were one or two characters named Legolas Greenleaf is to take a scholarly look at what J.R.R.T. wrote, what Christopher Tolkien wrote and (in light of all his works) how J.R.R.T. approached other similar problems in his mythology. That is what I attempted to do in my previous post.

I don’t claim to be some final authority on Tolkien’s work, and I’m always willing to engage in scholarly debate on the topic of Middle-earth; but I try to make sure most everything I write can be supported with references from Tolkien’s work. So, although I tend to shy away from making absolute statements, I believe my conclusion to be sound.

It is also impossible for Christopher Tolkien to say what his father was thinking. How many of us really meddle with what our parents do and know what goes through their heads? That is why I tend not to rely on things that Christopher Tolkien has written. What he wrote about Legolas is no more than his oppinion of what his father was thinking.

I do not think we can so lightly dismiss what Christopher Tolkien has written. While, as previously mentioned, we know that he made a few mistakes in editing the manuscripts; the magnitude of his devotion to his father's work is obvious. J.R.R.T. did discuss his work with him and I think Christopher’s opinion carries more weight than anyone else’s on matters pertaining to it. Unless there is clear evidence that he is in error (and in most, if not all, of those cases he has admitted his mistakes himself) I would take his word as authority.

In this case he made no reference to having doubt on this issue, so I would be very hesitant to disregard what he said. And his statements make it clear that Legolas of Gondolin and Legolas of Mirkwood were two different characters.

It all comes down to a matter of oppinion. As long as anyone is able to present evidence for either argument, there will be no definate answer to the question. There is no evidence that can clearly descriminate the two, nor is there enough to clearly bring them together.

There are many instances of debate on points regarding Middle-earth where there is not enough evidence on either side to draw a conclusion – so the result is that such cases do come down to a matter of personal opinion. However, in this case, there is quite a bit of evidence clearly showing that Tolkien considered them as two separate, unconnected characters, as outlined in my previous post. You just can’t throw that evidence away.

And as far as I can remember, I have not seen even one shred of textural evidence to the contrary. I have seen many arguments (all quite zealous) for one ‘continuing character’, but zero evidence that Tolkien ever considered them the same or ever had the slightest intention to reconcile them into one character.

Tolkien had many different versions of his mythology, and in most cases newer versions rendered conflicting material in older versions obsolete. ‘The Fall of Gondolin’ was one of the earliest of his tales. It is stated to have been written in 1916-1917 – long before LOTR. The information regarding Thranduil and Oropher, connecting their history with Doriath (and not Gondolin), is found in Unfinished Tales, and is stated to be from Tolkien’s ‘late philological writings’.

It seems clear to me that the textural evidence shows two separate characters, both named Legolas Greenleaf, that existed in two separate versions of the mythology. In around 50 years of writing and working on his mythology – I see no evidence that he ever attempted to connect these two characters or expressed any desire to do so.

Once again, it is all a matter of personal oppinion.

When reading Tolkien we each form our own personal vision of his world; and each vision will differ from everyone else’s, and may even differ from what Tolkien himself envisioned. That’s fine. And it is fine to express our personal preference concerning ME and its inhabitants – as long as we label it as such. Believing something because one ‘wants to’ and believing because of the textural evidence supporting the conclusion are two different things – both are OK – but we all (myself included) need to remember that that distinction needs to be maintained.

Ai, indeed, many of us are so passionate about Tolkien’s world that we sometimes find it difficult to see such arguments objectively – I know I do.

Ithildin *(

narithil

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RE: Legolas' life?
on: August 19, 2004 02:10

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by: narithil:
The whole question of one or two Legolases can be solved by answering one question. If Tolkien had prepared his other works for a final publishing, would he have connected this Legolas to that in LOTR, or would he have just changed his name?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually, the answer to this ‘one question’ would be nothing but speculation.

I'm glad that you see my point.

I do not think we can so lightly dismiss what Christopher Tolkien has written. While, as previously mentioned, we know that he made a few mistakes in editing the manuscripts; the magnitude of his devotion to his father's work is obvious. J.R.R.T. did discuss his work with him and I think Christopher’s opinion carries more weight than anyone else’s on matters pertaining to it. Unless there is clear evidence that he is in error (and in most, if not all, of those cases he has admitted his mistakes himself) I would take his word as authority.

In this case he made no reference to having doubt on this issue, so I would be very hesitant to disregard what he said. And his statements make it clear that Legolas of Gondolin and Legolas of Mirkwood were two different characters.

Even though I know that one cannot lightly disregard what Christopher Tolkien has written, I am still hesitant to take his every word for fact. For instance, I know what my mother does for a living, and she tells me constantly stories of what has happened and what she was working on, but since I am not she, if I were to pass that story on to someone else, I could interperet something differently than she meant it. Even though of all people besides my mother I would know the story best and know first-hand what she said, I still cannot tell it the same way or infallably leave out mistakes, even those that I find later and correct. I do not doubt that Christopher Tolkien knew better than anyone what J.R.R.T. intended to do with his stories, but I do hold back on basing my facts on what he has written. In this case especially, he must not have had a definate idea as to what his father was going to do with this character because he himself is only basing what he wrote on what little evidence his father left and his opinion. I can't find my book to quote exactly what he wrote, but it seemed to me that he based it on the same things that we already have. I believe (though I could be wrong) that Tolkien would not have left the story as is for its final copy. If he and his son had ever discussed the two appearances of the name Legolas, I am sure that he would have mentioned this very important fact.

Again, all that I can give is my opinion, but that is all anyone can give unless some kind of miraculous manuscript popps up from the inside of a wall, which I'm pretty sure won't happen.

PotbellyHairyfoot

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RE: Legolas' life?
on: August 21, 2004 12:41

Even though I know that one cannot lightly disregard what Christopher Tolkien has written, I am still hesitant to take his every word for fact

To me, it seems that Christopher Tolkien has devoted his life to the study of his father's works and everything he has written is extensively researched and referenced . I never doubt his accuracy.

Ithildin55

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RE: Legolas' life?
on: August 23, 2004 10:10

I agree, Andreth_Laiqualasse, the passage that tells of Frodo looking up at the Elf against the sky, clearly describes a figure in silhouette – under circumstances where color would not likely be discernable.

As to the Wood-elves in The Hobbit: actually their hair is described as 'gleaming' but the color is not specified except for the golden hair of the Elvenking, later given the name of Thranduil.

Legolas' hair color is not mentioned or even hinted at anywhere. Indeed, it is logical to think he could have inherited his father's light hair (I choose to!), but it's just as logical to think it could have been dark. I have never seen enough evidence to sway the argument either direction.

Ithildin *(

elvishmusician

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RE: Legolas' life?
on: August 26, 2004 09:58

Just on the hair/eye colour and that. I think that it was done like it was in the movie so that the audience could easily distinguish between the different types of elves.

Most of the time Rivendell elves had brown hair and green(?) eyes, whereas the elves of Lorien and Mirkwood had blonde hair and blue eyes. I remember hearing it on one of the appendixes (I think, I may have read in a book on the making of the movie though), that they tried to make it so as the elves hair and eyes showed where they came from. Like what has been said, I think there is no solid evidence either way.

Just a thought Galadriel is described as having golden hair and Celeborn as having silver hair -The elves of Mirkwood (in my understanding- well at least Legolas's line) came from Lorien(a long time ago) so that may be some more reason as to why Legolas may have had light hair. Then again just because the King and Queen have that colour doesn't mean all their people do either.

Based on Legolas's fathers hair colour there is a good chance he may have had blonde hair but just from personal experience what colour hair your parents have doesn't always pass on to you (my mum has brown hair and my dad has almost black hair and I wound up with blonde)!

elvishmusician

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RE: Legolas' life?
on: September 16, 2004 01:53

no affence but, i don't belive you people are a real disscussion on the lives of made up charaters

.

:cry::cry: :sob: :sob: I thought they were real! :cry::cry: :sob: :sob: You mean all that time it was just pretend :cry::cry:

nah just kidding... I have to say I agree with LadyEowyn_Of_Rohan and besides its fun,

When you put it like that, suppose it does sound a bit childish but C.S Lewis (a close friend of Tolkiens who proof read LOTR) did say 'When I became an adult I put away childish things, including the fear of appearing childish'

So I am proud to say even though the books forum discusses books and the lives of fictional characters, I still love it!

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