Welcome Guest 

Register

Forum Home » Books Discussion » Discuss the Books » Legolas' life?
12
Author Topic:
elvishmusician
CoE Volunteer
Posts: 405
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Legolas' life?
on: September 16, 2004 02:06
Now going back a few posts

in addition, I would add that it seems that Tolkien implied that the Elves of various races (even the Men, for that matter) shared very similar physical characteristics.


I would agree, though I don't have any solid evidence to. It just seems to me that people from the same area appear the same. I mean take Ireland for example, dark hari blue eyes is usually the stereotype fo what Irish people look like, China etc you get what I'm saying usually a certain look is assosciated with a certain race (not always but most of the time). As Tolkien wrote this as a history...I'm sure he would have tried to do it as close to reality as possible. That aside, I know in the movie, Peter Jackson paid a lot of attention to detail, he said on one of the Appendixs (on one of the EE) that he wanted so that you could tell straight away where that person came from...so he had certain characeristics for characters of Gondor and Rohan that distinguished them as different from each other, as I previously mentioned he did the same with the Elves.
Fingolfin_Cw
Council Member
Posts: 22
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Legolas' life?
on: February 22, 2005 12:07
Yes i understand that people have a hard time beliving me. and its a big possibility of being wrong. But i think Tolkien meant him to be the same but he might have regreted it later as we dont know. But if that version in Bolt2 is the one who counts then it is the same characther!
Elven_Light
Council Member
Posts: 34
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Legolas' life?
on: March 28, 2005 09:28
If Legolas was fair of face beyond the measure of men.' Is it because he's an elf and all elves are beautiful or because Legolas is particulary good looking?
Kaur
Council Member
Posts: 23
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Legolas' life?
on: March 28, 2005 09:30
the qoute was said when he was with Gimli and everyone was surprised to see an elf wandering with a dwarf and dwarves aren't very attractive looking. They are rugged and tough. On the ohter hand, Legolas is compassionate, an elf so therefore very fair, and he sang which dwarves don't exactly do. So they are quite the opposite. And all the people looking upon them were men so he is better looking then them so maybe that's why. But it could maybe mean that he was especially good looking. I'm not sure. This is just part of what I think.
Nolimon
Council Member
Posts: 13
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Legolas' life?
on: March 28, 2005 09:31
Beauty is, of course, in the eyes of the beholder. In this case the eyes were Gondorian, (as well as Frodo's, the narrator), which since time immemorial have been conditioned to accept the notion that everything Elvish is "fair" in most of its context.

There's little in way of textual evidence in LOTR that a particular Elf is fairer than any other Elf mentioned, save Arwen perhaps, and so there's little reason to believe that Legolas was exceptionally above his Elf-kin in terms of beauty. Other people, Elf or otherwise, had been said to be "fair" in one context or another. Only that Legolas's was beyond the measure of Men (i.e. Mortals)
Ithildin55
Council Member
Posts: 92
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Legolas' life?
on: April 10, 2005 07:56
In Tolkien's earlier stories Elves often had golden hair. When he wrote The Hobbit he drew freely from the early versions of his mythological stories, never dreaming that he would one day need to connect it back to the larger mythology and write an epic sequel to that little ‘children’s story.’ So when he later decided that practically ALL Elves had dark hair unless they shared Vanyarin heritage – he was stuck with Thranduil’s blond locks - and no convenient way to explain away their golden color. The story was too big for him to remember all those little details – but, nevertheless, he did a remarkable job of keeping things consistent.

I think it is safe to say that almost all Noldor Elves were dark haired except those with Vanyarin heritage (like the house of Finarfin) and the redheads in Fëanor’s line. Presumably the majority of Sindarin Elves were also dark haired except those relatives of Thingol who had silver hair. But still, I think there could have been exceptions – like Thranduil perhaps?

We know nothing of the Silvan range of hair color. In The Hobbit the Wood-elves are simply described as having ‘gleaming’ hair and in LOTR, one of Haldir’s companions is described as having hair that ‘glinted like gold in the morning sun.’ Too vague to be considered proof, but it leaves the door open to think at least some Silvan Elves may have had light hair. I don’t think that helps explain Thranduil’s hair color, though, as he was said to have been from Doriath.

Anyway, I like to think that Elves with golden hair were not quite as rare as those later comments seem to indicate.

Ithildin *(
Tariel_Vanari
Council Member
Posts: 37
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Legolas' life?
on: May 04, 2005 05:12
Well, I'm interjecting my personal opinion here:

1) I think of Legolas as having blond hair. Mostly I go with the "like father, like son," excuse that somebody mentioned earlier as my reasoning for this, but it's also just my gut feeling

2) I don't really have an opinion on his eyes.

3) He's more or less the same age as Elladan and Elrohir (in my opinion). I think that we can create a basic timeframe that he may have lived in by looking at his maturity and comparing it to other Elves whose ages we know. Based on that, I would group him with the twins.

4) I do NOT think that the two Legolas' are the same. It just doesn't make sense. And while I know that the HoME books cannot be taken as what Tolkien compleatly intended, it is true that they are the closest thing we've got, so until somthing more accurate comes out, I'm sticking with what they say.

5) I go back and forth on what I think about siblings. I tend to think of him as a younger brother because he just seems to have that little brother attitude (just my opinion).

Well, that's my opinion on Legolas
Ithildin55
Council Member
Posts: 92
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Legolas' life?
on: May 10, 2005 05:56
Originally posed by Gilith
So it can be assumed that Legolas is not talking about his age, rather that he speaks of how old the Golden Hall is.

Hello Gileth,

I agree that Legolas was referring to the building of Meduseld in that quote, yet it is nevertheless widely considered to be a ‘clue’ to his age because he seems to be speaking as if he has seen those five-hundred autumns himself. I don’t think it can be regarded as concrete ‘textual proof’ since the way it is worded he could possibly have been speaking of Elves in general and the passage of time as perceived by his people, but it seems more likely that he was speaking there of personal experience. It seems unlikely that Tolkien thought of the Elf as younger than 500 years, especially if other quotes are taken into consideration also.
'Seven mounds upon the left, and nine upon the right,' said Aragorn. 'Many long lives of men it is since the golden hall was built.'
'Five hundred times have the red leaves fallen in Mirkwood in my home since then,' said Legolas, 'and but a little while does that seem to us.' The King of the Golden Hall, TTT

So, this quote is usually considered to mark a minimum age of 500 years for Legolas, and most guesstimates of his age go up from there.

Unless I have missed some quote where the topic was discussed among the characters previously, it would seem that Legolas already knew the story of the Rohirrim coming to the land of Rohan and at least the general timing of the building of the Golden Hall.

As you mentioned, Eorl was granted the land in III 2510, but the Golden Hall is listed in the Tale of Years (Appendix B, RotK) as being completed in the year III 2569 – some 59 years later. So, Legolas’ remark was approximate, but close enough under the circumstances (close enough for an Elf?)

Interestingly, that little quote can be considered from several angles – it not only gives us a starting place for guessing at Legolas’ age, it also provides a important piece of Rohan’s history and perhaps most significantly, a glimpse of the differences between Men and Elves in their perceptions of the passage of time.

Ithildin *(
Ithildin55
Council Member
Posts: 92
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Legolas' life?
on: July 06, 2005 05:51
Hello to all!

If you want information on these topics – Legolas’ hair color, age and the fact that Legolas of Gondolin is not related to Legolas son of Thranduil – they have all been discussed in detail on previous pages of this thread.

The short version follows:

Age:
Legolas’ age is not known. Tolkien neither stated the Elf’s age nor gave sufficient clues to pin down his age anywhere in his published writings. The best scholarly guesses I’ve seen place him in the 600-1000 year-old range. These theories best fit the few clues given and the circumstances of the story, though Tolkien’s concept could well have placed him much older.
And actually, third_age, Arwen happens to be 2778 in the year III 3019 at the end of the War of the Ring. Her birth date is in the Appendices of LOTR, in The Tale of Years.

Hair Color:
Legolas’ hair color is not known. Tolkien neither stated the Elf’s hair color nor gave sufficient clues to pin down his hair color anywhere in his published writings. Tolkien’s writings on this subject are somewhat contradictory and exceptions to his ‘rules’ seem to exist. The second post on this page (page # gives some of my thoughts on the hair color debate with more in-depth comments back on page #3.


One Legolas or two?:
Legolas of Gondolin was a very early character that Tolkien eventually dropped from the tale of the fall of Gondolin. He re-used the name when he created the character of Thranduil’s son for LOTR but there is no connection between the two Legolas characters within Middle-earth and they are not the same Elf.


Ithildin *(
narithil
Council Member
Posts: 13
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Legolas' life?
on: July 29, 2005 06:48
I don't care how many times you say it, no one can convince me that there are two Legolases! :nono: Okay, well, maybe I would believe you, but in my screwed up brain that has researched and read and studied, I find that one Legolas makes more sense in my pattern of thinking (although I have been known to find what seems illogical to some to make the most sense- my favorite classes were calculus and physics).

But, for now I'm done arguing my point, so don't post a million replies trying to point out to me that I could never possibly be right. Its useless! You'll never turn me to your side! Never!

Now that that is out of my system, my sister told me to write that two Legolases makes more sense because there are double the hotties (and trust me, those are her words. I'd never say that, not that I dislike Orlando Bloom, but I'm more into guys who understand the string theory and the space-time continuum).

Okay, I'm really done now. Remember, don't post a million replies trying to prove me wrong. You're just wasting your time and typing energy because it won't work! Hahahahaha!
cirdaneth
Books Admin & Books Forum Moderator
Posts: 2069
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Legolas' life?
on: February 16, 2007 11:14
They are really interesting articles, Allasse, but they really need someone to shoot a few holes in them. I suspect that elven social structure is not based on modern assumptions about kings, princes, lords etc. Likewise the notion of family, or flaunting your rank etc etc. Sepdet states that only Noldor went to Gondolin, when in fact only a third were such. Is there another Tolkien scholar somewhere who is prepared to dissect these articles?

I believe that Tolkien's habit of reorganising his mythology retrospectively would have borne interesting fruit if he had lived to see it through. But there was so much of it he would have to be immortal himself.

Call me a heretic if you like, but I belive that there would have been only one Legolas, and that his back-story, between Gondolin and LotR would make a Great Tale in itself. He's very 'Zen' in Legolas. Is he young ... or is he 10,000 years old and seen much?

ED: There had been discussion of the articles by Ellen Brundige aka Sepdet.

[Edited on 20/12/2008 by cirdaneth]
Galenfea
Council Member
Posts: 345
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Legolas' life?
on: July 27, 2007 11:07
This really is an interesting thread...

I think because the Sil was never to be published. Tolkien recycled names. No one questions why there are 2 Finduilas', 2 Denethors, 2 Ecthelions, 2 Haldirs, 2 Gildors, 2 Galdors, 2 Gelmirs I could go on...


I think some of those can be easily explained by mortals of later ages being in the habit of naming their children after legendary elves . I know that the earliest note I've found which can be interpreted as referring to Arwen names her as Finduilas, but this was later changed, suggesting that he wasn't just randomly re-using names.
I never noticed an earlier elven Haldir, though, I must admit.
Forgive me if I misinterpreted your remark!
--- All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us.
1WngdAngel
Council Member
Posts: 1
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Legolas' life?
on: September 09, 2007 04:15
A long time ago now I came upon a great argument for Legolas' age. The debater theorized that Legolas was at most 1,038 years old in 3019 because he had never seen Lothlorien. Before Dol Guldur grew in power Thranduil's people dwelled in the mountains of Mirkwood and enjoyed a healthy relationship with Amroth and Nimrodel. In 1981 T.A. Thranduil moved north and Amroth and Nimrodel were lost. Thranduil was untrustworthy of Celeborn and Galadriel and the Elves of Mirkwood no longer visited Lothlorien. Meaning Legolas of Mirkwood is, as stated earlier, no more than 1,038 and that he can't possibly be the Legolas of the first age.
Rainyaviel_of_Rivendell
Council Member
Posts: 130
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Legolas' life?
on: October 02, 2007 09:27
i think thats what these debates are for,to fill in the blanks.its unlikely that we'll ever get any definative answers so we just have to go with what we have.
ladytindomiel
Council Member
Posts: 4
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Legolas' life?
on: November 01, 2007 03:07
well the things tht i know are.

Hes a prince,ya.

His hair colour actually is black.cuz in one of the LOTR editions Toiken had this picture drawn about the three day run Aragorn Legolas and Gimli .The picture showed Aragorn er..smoking a pipe i think and Gimli Sleeping and Leggy was as usual keeping an eye out for things.and i am very sure the picture showed a shoulder lengthed blacked haired Leggy.

As for his age he is supposed to be very young in elf terms,probably just a weensie bit older than Arwen.I reckon its 500 since * it been five hundered times since he saw the leaves fall in his homeland. But then again,is he including the times he left for one journey or another where he missed the falling leaves?his character in the book also terms like a really young elf who hasnt seen much.

However there is an account of the Fall of Gondolin and there mentions an elf called Legolas,dunno if hes our Legolas but if he is then theres possibility that Legolas' life stretched back to the First Age, or even before.

As for his mother..Nopee i have no idea.but i do noe his grandfather...though his name escapes me but i'm sure it starts wit an O.

There might be only this limited infomation on Legolas,i have spent at least 5 years researching on him but he is still as elusive a character as before=((
jestofo
Council Member
Posts: 2
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Legolas' life?
on: January 03, 2008 01:23
I don't know what all these fan girls are raving about.
THE RING GOES SOUTH (Book 2, Chapter 3):

" Aragorn was the tallest of the Company, but Boromir, little less in height, was broader and heavier in build. He led the way, and Aragorn followed him. Slowly they moved off, and were soon toiling heavily. In places the snow was breast-high, and often Boromir seemed to bc swimming or burrowing with his great arms rather than walking.

Legolas watched them for a while with a smile upon his lips, and then he turned to the others. `The strongest must seek a way, say you? But I say: let a ploughman plough, but choose an otter for swimming, and for running light over grass and leaf or over snow-an Elf.'

With that he sprang forth nimbly, and then Frodo noticed as if for the first time, though he had long known it, that the Elf had no boots, but wore only light shoes, as he always did, and his feet made little imprint in the snow.

'Farewell!' he said to Gandalf. `I go to find the Sun!' Then swift as a runner over firm sand he shot away, and quickly overtaking the toiling men, with a wave of his hand he passed them, and sped into the distance, and vanished round the rocky turn."
This is clearly not courteous behavior and obviously unbefitting of a prince. : ( He shouldn't laugh at all the clumsy humans.

ALSO. On a more intelligent note:
Do you really think that Tolkien should have given elves such godlike powers over men?

I read somewhere that the elves were Tolkien's vision of a more utopian society so obviously they have to have certain advantages (prettier, better singers, immortal) but Tolkien was very Catholic and in the last century (correct me if i'm wrong) the Catholic church has been leaning towards the image of a more benevolent god (modern man is a wuss and a benevolent god makes it easier to hold membership) but it doesn't seem very fair of Eru to create 2 types of people: one that is wise, beautiful, and that can sing, and one that is short and ugly.

Any ideas on how to reconcile the inherent injustice in the difference of abilities between elves and men (excluding immortality, of course)?

I apologize if that was all completely unintelligible. I do that sometimes : (

[Edited on 4/1/2008 by cirdaneth]
PotbellyHairyfoot
Grandpa Moderator
Posts: 2929
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Legolas' life?
on: January 03, 2008 01:36
Legolas did smile, but that is a big step away from laughing at someone. The problem with him running lightly over the snow is, that of all the members of the Fellowship, only he could do that, while the rest are stuck ploughing through the drifts rather than over them.

When you consider the differences between men and Elves you must also take into consideration the fact that Men were found almost everywhere while the Elves only remained in a few places on Middle-Earth. Apparently men did have some advantages.
frodofan14
CoE Volunteer & Realm Head of Manwë Súlimo
Posts: 1157
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Legolas' life?
on: January 03, 2008 12:07
i agree that legolas is very annoying to me, and, i hope i wont get in trouble for saying this, i dislike him. but not for the reasons that you listed; those do convince me, but the real reason is that he killed grima needlessly. so people say it was because saruman was 'about to give valuble info away' but saruman was already dead when legolas shot grima! cant the stupid elf tell if someone is dead or not?!?!?

[Edited on 4/1/2008 by cirdaneth]
Morwinyoniel
Gallery Admin & Realm Head of Estë
Posts: 1637
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Legolas' life?
on: January 04, 2008 01:27
Frodofan14, Legolas kills Grima only in the movie; that doesn't happen in the book (I don't say any more of Grima's fate in the book, in case you haven't read it, which I heartily recommend that you would do). Book Legsy is very different from the portrayal in the films.
cirdaneth
Books Admin & Books Forum Moderator
Posts: 2069
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Legolas' life?
on: January 04, 2008 04:35
Thanks Morwin. Well put.

Frodofan ... I'm leaving your post in here, because it does have relevance to the book ... and it might be worth you posting it to the Movies Forum as well because it does point up a major difference between the book and the movie.

....but ... (you knew there'd be a 'but' didn't you ? ) ... I'm going to edit out the bit about 'hate' ... (as you suggested I might) because firstly, although CoE encourages criticism and discussion, we have rules about not beating up insultingly on characters and people; and secondly 'hate' is a very strong word and I hope none of us ever feel, or meet with, real hatred in our lives.

[Edited on 4/1/2008 by cirdaneth]
frodofan14
CoE Volunteer & Realm Head of Manwë Súlimo
Posts: 1157
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Legolas' life?
on: January 05, 2008 07:04
yes, i have read the books. the first time i read them i was shocked, because i hadnt seen the EE ROTK.
cirdaneth
Books Admin & Books Forum Moderator
Posts: 2069
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Legolas' life?
on: January 05, 2008 10:01
Yes, it's quite an eye-opener isn'yt it? I enjoy the movies and understand why some things had to be different, but I had already read the books. It must be a heck of a shock encountering them the other way round.
frodofan14
CoE Volunteer & Realm Head of Manwë Súlimo
Posts: 1157
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Legolas' life?
on: January 05, 2008 10:11
it was. picture this: here i was, happlily watching the theatrical versions of the movies, and i was thinking 'wow, its really lucky that Grima didnt die. but what happened to him?' so then i started to read the books. when i finished TTT i thought 'well, since he wasnt in the movie RotK, he must have lived!' imagine my shock when i was reading the scouring of the shire. i literaly couldnt read any further. then i began crying really hard. then my mom came into my room and asked what was wrong and i couldnt talk, i was crying so hard. about a moth later, i was reading the script for EE ROTK and there i saw that it was legolas that did it. it was then that my 'disliking' began, but before he was my 2nd favorite character (he was in front of Grima once - can you belive that?) so i didnt want to belive it. so i went on youtube and searched grima's death and there i watched it (cause i didnt own the EE yet). then i started to cry again.
Morwinyoniel
Gallery Admin & Realm Head of Estë
Posts: 1637
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Legolas' life?
on: January 07, 2008 01:36
Seems that you're a Gríma fan, but it shouldn't have anything to do with this topic...

Look at it this way: Which one is the real Legolas; the book version, or the movie version?

For me, it can only be the book character, having read the books years and years before there was even any talk about live action LOTR movies. Therefore, in my opinion, the movie Legolas did a lot that I regarded as out of character; shooting Gríma was definitely one of those things.
frodofan14
CoE Volunteer & Realm Head of Manwë Súlimo
Posts: 1157
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Legolas' life?
on: January 07, 2008 10:02
sorry for going off topic :blush:

well, i saw the movies first and though leggy was a cool guy, like how he swung up onto arod and his skateboarding thing @ helms deep, but after i read the books i realized PJ made him seem really fan gril directed. to me, he just wasnt the noble elf prince from the books.
kreechaira
Council Member
Posts: 2
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Legolas' life?
on: March 23, 2008 01:57
About Legolas's age.
I think that he's got to be older than Arwen. I clearly, and hopefully correctly, remember that somewhere in LOTR it was mentioned that Arwen is the youngest elf in Arda. If I found the quote, I'll post it.

About his looks.
I like to believe he's blonde. No particular reason, except that his father is blonde. And about being fair and particularly fair, I think it depends on personal opinon. I tend to favor the particularly fair.

About family.
As there's nothing much said of his family, it's an open 24/7 battleground for enthusiasts, however I tend to believe that he was an only child. Most elves don't have large families and I don't see a reason for Thranduil and his unnnamed wife to act like crazy rabbits in springtime.
As for sending a prince to the Council. It's not overly far fetched to assume that Elladan, Elrohir, Arwen and Legolas were a least acquaintances. Why shouldn't he use the opportunity to visit his friends? Besides that was a Council to which many important persons came from all over the West, I see no dishonor in attending such an event. It's another 'Open At All Hours' discussion field, but my personal opinion is that there could be a lot of reasons for Legolas to attend the meeting in his father's name, which exclude him being unimportant.

As for - How many?
After browsing through the replies in this topic, I am convinced that there were 2 Legolas'es.

About NMTHAP [not-mentioning-that-he's-a-prince]
First - I think that he didn't find that to be an overly important fact. Elves are immortal so the matter of succession isn't excessively relevant for them.
Second - he might have a thing against being called a princeling, so I can easily imagine that his ever mindful companions could be humoring him on that point.
Third - he might as well be opposing his father. It was frequently mentioned that their characters are fairly opposite, so the idea of a bout of rebelliousness doesn't seem too far fetched for me.

That's what I think, though I have no real quotes to support my guesses at the moment. In the end, it's all the matter of a personal opinion.

[Edited on 24/3/2008 by kreechaira]
lanelas
Council Member
Posts: 22
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Legolas' life?
on: May 19, 2008 01:51
His grandfather was Oropher, who died in the War of the Last Alliance.
ElfofCave
Council Member
Posts: 11
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Legolas' life?
on: October 26, 2008 03:54
I think that Legolas of Mirkwood is the same as the Legolas of Gondolin because, in the Treason of Isengard, Christofer Tolkien notes: 'This is probably the point at which my father determined on the change of Galdor to Legolas. Legolas Greenleaf the keen-eyed thus reappears after many years from the old tale of The Fall of Gondolin; he was of the House of the Tree in Gondolin, of which Galdor was lord.'


Legolas of Mirkwood was definitely not the same the same as Legolas of Gondolin.

1. Legolas was the grandson of Oropher, who was a Sindarin lord of Doriath. Both Gondolin and Doriath were isolated, hidden realms and the Elves rarely left the safety they provided. Besides, Thingol (and most likely the rest of the inhabitants of Doriath) wanted nothing to do with the exiled Noldor (with the exception of Finarfin’s children), so there were no contact between Gondolin and Doriath.
2. Legolas consider himself a Silvan Elf. In Eregion, he says “...the Elves of this land were of a race strange to us of the silvan folk...” (FotR, The Ring Goes South). If Legolas was originally of Gondolin, the High Elves, most of which would have lived in Gondolin, that settled in Eregion would not be ‘strange’ to him.
3. Legolas Greenleaf of the House of the Tree, of Gondolin, is mentioned only once in Tolkien’s writings, which is in ‘The Fall of Gondolin’ in BoLT II, from around 1917, and the text is therefore from the very infancy of Tolkien’s mythology. Tolkien later decided that ‘Legolas’ was a Silvanized spelling of a Sindarin name, and that makes no sense for an Elf of Gondolin to have such a name (Letter #211 Oct 195. The name ‘Legolas’ is simply one of the many that appear in Tolkien’s early writings and were later reused or/and given to a different character, like Rumil, Galdor, and Gimli.
cirdaneth
Books Admin & Books Forum Moderator
Posts: 2069
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Legolas' life?
on: October 26, 2008 05:01
I think that Legolas of Mirkwood is the same as the Legolas of Gondolin because, in the Treason of Isengard, Christofer Tolkien notes: 'This is probably the point at which my father determined on the change of Galdor to Legolas. Legolas Greenleaf the keen-eyed thus reappears after many years from the old tale of The Fall of Gondolin; he was of the House of the Tree in Gondolin, of which Galdor was lord.'
Ooops! Sorry Loslote! I was a bit slow off the mark and should have moved your post sooner. Anyway ...

We have an "Only One Legolas" thread where we can discuss (but not argue) our thoughts on the possibilities. I tend to feel that Tolkien would have merged the Legolases if he'd had time to tidy up loose ends and Give Legolas a proper "back-story".

Meanwhile I shall move your post to the other thread and bump it.

Those are some good quotes lisa_gk. You'll find quite a few more among the previous posts and if you go to the very last thread of this forum you'll find Sepdet's long article in favour of the "Two Legolas" theory.
RangerStryder
Council Member
Posts: 22
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Legolas' life?
on: December 10, 2008 10:31
I dont know if this was asked already here but I'm just wondering how come Legolas can kill a lot of Orcs when his quiver can only carry 2 dozen arrows.

Does he recycle them from killed enemies or the quiver is magic and can produce non-stop arrows?
cirdaneth
Books Admin & Books Forum Moderator
Posts: 2069
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Legolas' life?
on: December 10, 2008 10:39
Somewhere in LotR there is mention of Legolas collecting up enemy arrows to use after a skirmish. In major battles archers are resupplied by runners from behind the lines, or if they are in fixed defensive positions there are barrels of arrows constantly replenished from the armoury.

I've moved your post here RangerStryder because we have several Legolas threads already and I want to avoid a muddle.
Ereinion
CoE Volunteer
Posts: 85
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Legolas' life?
on: December 24, 2008 03:06
At the start of TTT, it is mentioned how he searches for arrows, and finds some that aren't the usual orc arrows. Likewise, at Helm's Deep, he runs out of arrows twice: The first time is when Gimli returns from saving Eomer, Legolas says that he spent all his arrows. The second is when retreating back to the keep, it mentions how Legolas is down to his last arrow.
Elthir
Council Member
Posts: 433
Send Message
Avatar
Post RE: Legolas' life?
on: October 27, 2009 07:02
LOTRLuver43235 wrote: 'why would Tolkien create two characters of the same name? why not two different names if they are indeed two different characters?'


There are two Rumils in The Lord of the Rings, two Gelmirs in The Silmarillion, any number of Argons according to The Shibboleth of Feanor, or even Celebrimbors among the Teleri, according to late writing on the subject of Eldarin words for 'hand'.

'when Tolkien repeated names he usually put II after the younger character. example: Denethor and Denethor II...'


Assuming there is an earlier Legolas of Gondolin in the first place

Pitya wrote: 'as well as the fact that name recurrence generally only occurs in lines of Men, i.e. Denethor and Aragorn etc. for general practicallity purposes i would say elves didn't give their children the same name of another elf.'


As we see, names could be repeated, but this point sometimes gets confused because of text in Laws And Customs:

'In elder times the 'Chosen Name', or second name, was usually freshly devised (...) In later ages, when there was a great abundance of names already in existence, it was more often selected from names that were known. But even so some modification of the old name might be made.' JRRT, Morgoth's Ring


Noting 'might' there, but in any case what sometimes gets lost is that this description refers to the Chosen Name specifically, concerning which it is also said: 'in which point, maybe, they differed from the other Eldar' with 'they' referring to the Noldor.

Moreover, due to a later account on Elvish naming, in which the cilmessi or 'self-names' (or names of personal choice) are described, Christopher Tolkien notes: 'The wholly different account of 'Chosen Names' in Laws and Customs among the Eldar (...) appears to have been abandoned.' CJRT, note 16, Shibboleth of Feanor

Ithildin55 wrote: '3. There is also the very important matter of the name itself. When reconciling the two Glorfindels, Tolkien was concerned about the way Glorfindel's name would not fit into Sindarin, and, in fact, he couldn't fit Legolas in either – that's why he styled it as a Silvan name. There's no way he could have explained it away for a Sindarin Elf, let alone a Noldorin Elf.'


In general it seems possible (I think). The revised idea was that Legolas was a dialectal (Silvan) version of Sindarin Laegolas, so it seems 'possible' that a Laegolas might have ended up in Mirkwood and accepted a dialectal pronunciation.

That said, I agree with you and others that there is no real evidence that Legolas the Gnome (when Tolkien wrote The Book of Lost Tales all the people of Gondolin were Gnomes, or Noldoli) was intended to be Legolas of Mirkwood.

Narithil wrote: 'The only problem that I see in the connection of two Legolases into one is the fact that Legolas of Gondolin went to Tol Eressea, but LOTR Legolas has never seen the sea. But, I'm sure that if Tolkien had known that his other works would be published, he would have smothed out that problem.'


But how to smooth this out? if Tolkien later decides to make Legolas of Mirkwood one of the Sindar from Gondolin, that is. As has been mentioned, Legolas says the Elves of Hollin: 'were of a race strange to us of the Silvan folk'

And as you mention here: 'Alas for the wailing of the gulls! Did not the Lady tell me to beware of them? And now I cannot forget them.' (The Last Debate) and: 'The Sea! Alas! I have not yet beheld it. But deep in the hearts of all my kindred...'

So how to keep 'Legolas of Gondolin' away from the Sea?

After the Fall of Gondolin: 'Yet by Sirion and the Sea there grew up an Elven-folk, the gleanings of Doriath and Gondolin...' And after the assault of the sons of Feanor: 'Then such few of that people as did not perish in the assault joined themselves to Gil-galad, and went with him to Balar...' And those Elves that did not pass West ended up in Lindon, which was next to the Sea again, before migration Eastward.

Well, my vote is for one Legolas: that is, Legolas of Mirkwood... but not Gondolin
cirdaneth
Books Admin & Books Forum Moderator
Posts: 2069
Send Message
Avatar
Post
on: September 27, 2015 05:46
* bump
12
Members Online
Print Friendly, PDF & Email