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RogHammerofWrath
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Post Elven Physiques
on: February 22, 2011 06:33
Was it possible for Elves to have massive physiques? I picture Rog, the Gondolin Noldo Lord as having a herculean physique from the account of his part in the battle of the fall of Gondolin. He was said to be physically strongest of the Noldor.
starofdunedain
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Post RE: Elven Physiques
on: February 22, 2011 07:53
Who's Rog? Turgon was king of Gondolin. I never really thought about that but I suppose some elves could be big and strong especially if they fought in battle a lot. I don't think descriptions are given very often other than being fair and strong in limb. But I never took that to mean big buff and Herculean in strength.

[Edited on 23/2/2011 by starofdunedain]

[Edited on 23/2/2011 by starofdunedain]
Elthir
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Post RE: Elven Physiques
on: February 23, 2011 03:31
Rog is a character from The Book of Lost Tales, which includes a very early version of the Fall of Gondolin. Christopher Tolkien thinks this name, at least, would not have survived into later versions (see below).


As far as Elvish bodies go, in comparison to Men, Tolkien revised his ideas over time. In this version of the Fall of Gondolin, while Rog may have been strong among the Gondothlim, they were generally...

'Indeed the Gondothlim were not bent of back as some of their unhappy kin became, labouring without rest at delving and hammering for Melko, but small were they and slender and very lithe.'

JRRT, The Fall of Gondolin, The Book of Lost Tales


It's also noted that the Gnomes or 'Noldoli' that came forth to see Tuor (all the Gondothlim were Noldoli at this point) marvelled at his stature and gaunt limbs, and he was taller than any that stood there.

Again I'll stress that this is an early notion, quoted here only because 'Rog' appears within this conception. More could be said about Elven stature as the tales and legends would later develop in Tolkien's mind.

__________

'I removed the reference to Rog (The Silmarillion, p. 242) on the grounds that it was absolutely certain that my father would not have retained this name as that of a lord of Gondolin.' Christopher Tolkien, The Book of Lost Tales, commentary, Fall of Gondolin
RogHammerofWrath
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Post RE: Elven Physiques
on: February 23, 2011 04:23
I thought Turgon was taller than Tuor?

I imagine though Rog as strongest of the Noldor would have been an intimidating presence as are all powerful Elf Lords.

[Edited on 23/2/2011 by RogHammerofWrath]

[Edited on 23/2/2011 by RogHammerofWrath]
Elthir
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Post RE: Elven Physiques
on: February 23, 2011 04:49
I thought Turgon was taller than Tuor? I imagine though Rog as strongest of the Noldor would have been an intimidating presence as are all powerful Elf Lords.


I stressed the point that the descriptions from The Book of Lost Tales do not necessarily illustrate Tolkien's Middle-earth as he would (much later) come to imagine it.

The updated (long prose version) of The Fall of Gondolin (early 1950s) was itself abandoned when Tuor arrived in the city -- but regarding the much earlier version in which 'Rog' appears, Christopher Tolkien has pointed out that this tale was written in an extremely archaistic style, and generally employed conceptions quite out of keeping with the world of The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion.



[Edited on 23/2/2011 by Elthir]
RogHammerofWrath
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Post RE: Elven Physiques
on: February 23, 2011 04:51
So is it safe to assume, if Rog had received the same evolution of concept as Turgon or Thingol or other Noldor Lords, he would have been an awesome physical presence?

[Edited on 23/2/2011 by RogHammerofWrath]
Elthir
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Post RE: Elven Physiques
on: February 23, 2011 04:59
It's not a given that a character named 'Rog' was imagined as ever existing in Middle-earth, but later (1950s or later) descriptions of the Eldar of Middle-earth include (from Tolkien's Quendi And Eldar here):

'In general the Sindar appear to have very closely resembled the Exiles, being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe.'

Just how tall is another question, aside for the moment
Elthir
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Post RE: Elven Physiques
on: February 23, 2011 05:30
Ah, found one of my posts on Eldarin height (at least according to later notions, and in brief for the moment)...

A) by one account the Eldar were 6 and a half feet tall, with some kings or leaders even taller.

B) by another account even taller, Tolkien imagining the Eldar normally about 7 feet tall (especially the Noldor), equal in general to the towering Numenoreans within this context.

But of these two general descriptions, I can't tell which came before the other! that is, both A and B are relatively 'late', but it might not be possible to tell which is later.


Anyway, if there was to be a new name for Rog, but his character generally preserved (and why not I guess), he would arguably be intimidatingly tall by our standards today.

I'm not sure how 'bulky' he would be however, even if notably strong among the Noldor. But in any event, alas that JRRT didn't finish the early 1950s Fall of Gondolin!
RogHammerofWrath
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Post RE: Elven Physiques
on: February 23, 2011 05:34
It's not a given that a character named 'Rog' was imagined as ever existing in Middle-earth, but later (1950s or later) descriptions of the Eldar of Middle-earth include (from Tolkien's Quendi And Eldar here):

'In general the Sindar appear to have very closely resembled the Exiles, being dark-haired, strong and tall, but lithe.'

Just how tall is another question, aside for the moment


From what you have posted, it seems the name of the character is the primary driver of Christopher Tolkien's editing not the concept of Rog or the house of the Hammers of Wrath. It was such a colorful part of that tale, its unlikely that J.R.R.T would have done that, IMHO.

When it describes those of the Hammer of Wrath it describes their arms as being very strong. Of course Rog is said to be strongest of the Noldor and scare second in Valor to Galdor.

I guess my question is, is it possible for an Elf to have a huge musculature or is it simply impossible.

I know that even the most poweful men, pale in comparison to the mighty among Elf Lords such as Fingolfin, Glorfindel, Thingol, Turgon, etc.
Elthir
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Post RE: Elven Physiques
on: February 23, 2011 05:53
Hmm, I don't know about 'bulk'... I can't remember if this was ever described in a later context.

I just posted on Eldarin height (above), just in case you missed it -- I posted twice in a row after finding later, general references to height -- where you will see too that I agree that the character of 'Rog' wasn't necessarily abandoned (as opposed to his name).
RogHammerofWrath
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Post RE: Elven Physiques
on: February 23, 2011 06:15
Thanks for the info.

I know the Sim says Thingol was the tallest of the children of Illuvitar.

How does the stature of Numenoreans relate to the Elf Lords like Thingol or Turgon?

[Edited on 23/2/2011 by RogHammerofWrath]
Elthir
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Post RE: Elven Physiques
on: February 23, 2011 09:32
Some of the late quotes to consider...

'They were called 'Halflings'; but this refers to the normal height of Men of Numenorean descent and of the Eldar (especially those of Noldorin descent), which appears to have been about seven of our feet.'

JRRT, Of Dwarves And Men, '1968 or later'


So here the normal height of peoples of both Eldarin and Numenorean descent is about seven feet. In Unfinished Tales there is a note that puts Elendil the Tall at nearly eight feet (this conception is more well known than the more recently published quote below concerning the Numenoreans, as Unfinished Tales has been around since the 1980s)!

But what if (maybe) Tolkien thought Elendil was too tall at nearly eight feet, especially if Thingol, at least, must be taller? But first another description of the Eldar...

'The Quendi were in origin a tall people. The Eldar (...) they were in general the stronger and taller members of the Elvish folk at that time. In Eldarin tradition it was said that even their women were seldom less than six feet in height; their full-grown elfmen no less than six and a half feet, while some of the great kings and leaders were taller.'

JRRT, late manuscript, The Lord of the Rings Reader's Companion, Hammond and scull, p. 107


The Numenoreans...

'... the Numenoreans before the Downfall were a people of great stature and strength, the Kings of men; their full grown men were commonly seven feet tall, especially in the royal and noble houses. In the North where men of other kinds were fewer and their race remained purer this stature remained more frequent, though in both Arnor and Gondor apart from mixture of race the Numenoreans showed a dwindling of height and of longevity in Middle-earth that became more marked as the Third Age passed. Aragorn, direct descendant of Elendil and his son Isildur, both of whom had been seven feet tall, must nonetheless have been a very tall man…, probably at least 6 ft. 6; and Boromir, of high Númenorean lineage, not much shorter (say 6 ft. 4).'


So here Elendil is seemingly 'only' seven feet tall, not nearly eight feet -- but again I've no idea if these notes published by Hammond and Scull are earlier or later than the statement from Of Dwarves And Men.


Turgon is described as: 'tallest of all the children of the World, save Thingol'. But in (yet another late text) The Shibboleth of Feanor Argon was said to be taller than Turgon, though he (Argon) was slain rather early it seems.
RogHammerofWrath
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Post RE: Elven Physiques
on: February 23, 2011 10:11
So, if I am not misinterpreting what you are postulating, while the Numenoreans were of great stature, the most powerful among the Noldor Lords, or Thingol since he was Sinda are the greatest in stature of the the children of Eru.

Hercynian
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Post RE: Elven Physiques
on: February 23, 2011 11:16
Anthropologists say that pre-civ humans were much taller, that the "new" diet of mainly grains (without much else) literally shrunk us and made our bones weaker. Early "pre-contact" Europeans were supposedly averaging around 6'. Supposedly the gladiators of Rome were given special concoctions made from ash to increase their calcium and strengthen their bones.

One recent study as to why each developed world generation is taller seems to think milk is the answer. The tallest people in already tall Europe are the Dutch, who, coincidently, do the most dairy. Personally, I'm 6'2", my wife is 5'9" and my boys are on track to be much taller than I am -- while my dad and mom were 5'10" and 5'5" respectively.

I believe we are "genetically latently" taller, that key nutrients like calcium and D vitamins are finally (after thousands of years!) in amounts as they were "pre-civ."

I say all this because I play with the idea that Elves are just a strange mixture of who we were and who we want to be (again). For example, why do we seem to have a fixed image in our heads about how the Elves look? This seems to be inter-generational. So what does an Elf look like? He/she is

1. Tall, angular, zero body fat (ultra gracile), good musculature but nowhere near bulked up like a body-builder. No body hair or beards.
2. "Germanic fair," which means high cheek bones, eyes not too deep-set (peasant), but not too large, heavy-lidded (nobility); board-straight, fine hair ranging from blond to dark; blemish-free, porcelain-white skin.
3. Bottom: tights; Top: haute couture tunics; Shoes: pointy Medieval-looking.

Well, you get the picture. So then, where did we get this image of the Elf? Back in Nazi Germany the joke went: "Tall like Goebbels, slim like Goering, blond like Hitler."

[Edited on 23/2/2011 by Hercynian]
Elthir
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Post RE: Elven Physiques
on: February 23, 2011 01:07
Interesting (yet again) Hercynian!

RogHammerofWrath wrote: So, if I am not misinterpreting what you are postulating, while the Numenoreans were of great stature, the most powerful among the Noldor Lords, or Thingol since he was Sinda are the greatest in stature of the the children of Eru.


Although both peoples are of great stature in either conception, we sort of have 'if scenarios' here I think.

It would seem that Thingol, Argon, Turgon are possibly the tallest Children of God (in that order) -- going by extant description from the 1950s onward anyway (though written at different times!).


But as for the more general comparison, as I see things: if Of Dwarves And Men is later than the descriptions published by Hammond and Scull, we generally have Elves of Eldarin descent -- especially the Noldor -- of the same basic height as folk of Numenorean descent (seven feet).

If the H&S notes are later than Of Dwarves And Men however, and later than the Elendil note in Unfinished Tales too: then, though Elendil might be shorter, the general Numenorean -- at least before the fall -- still seems about seven feet, while the Eldar seem generally a bit shorter, noting: '... their full-grown elfmen no less than six and a half feet, while some of the great kings and leaders were taller.'

And even if this conception was the latest it still allows for taller than 6 and a half feet for some kings and leaders of the Eldar (Thingol, Argon, Turgon and others) -- and this Numenorean 'common' height of seven feet appears to refer to a specific time, after which dwindling began (though this took a while of course).


Not that Tolkien's latest thoughts (if known) necessarily represent what he would certainly publish, but dating the texts and notes is a way to try to find out where JRRT was possibly headed with a given idea. He didn't date everything (and sometimes seemingly forgot what he had already published), as obviously he didn't know his fans would be looking at so many of his drafts and wondering!

I like the Hammond and Scull notes, but sometimes I like to 'embiggen' the Eldar just a bit, imagining Of Dwarves And Men represents the latest idea!

I fluctuate... so far

~nólemë~
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Post RE: Elven Physiques
on: February 23, 2011 10:15
sorry, what do you mean by 'pre-contact' Hercynian? I've never heard the term, and I'm wondering what period you have in mind, because -I admit I haven't made any research in this field, though, or read too much on this- I've never seen an ancient skeleton as tall as I am, and I'm 6'.

Seems I haven't read all the materials I could on Elvish hair, or as properly as I should- where does it say they had board-straight hair? O_O To my knowldge, Angrod is the only one explicitly mentioned to have had such hair?
---------- Image "If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world." J.R.R. Tolkien - The Hobbit
Elthir
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Post RE: Elven Physiques
on: February 24, 2011 03:46
I don't think Hercynian is necessarily describing everything (above) based on extant text from JRRT.

Unless there's something new, I don't recall anything that generally describes Elven hair as straight. Beautiful, yes: 'All the Eldar had beautiful hair (and were especially attracted by hair of exceptional loveliness), but the Ñoldor were not specially remarkable in this respect,...'

We get some sweeping hair descriptions concerning colour of course, and a few specific descriptions; like for Aegnor for instance, whose hair was: 'strong and stiff, rising upon his head like flames'.
RogHammerofWrath
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Post RE: Elven Physiques
on: February 24, 2011 04:52
I've been trying to track down a quote but I can't seem to find it. I thought I had read somewhere that the Numenor did not have much in the way of calvary, because them men had grown so large there were no horses to bear them.

Do you recall anything like that? Maybe Unfinished Tales?

I suppose that could mean that their bone structure and girth was as impressive as their height and with armor it was just to much weight.

[Edited on 24/2/2011 by RogHammerofWrath]
Hercynian
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Post RE: Elven Physiques
on: February 24, 2011 05:11
~nólemë~, my" Elf checklist" was more tongue-in-cheek than serious. I was just noting how we all seem to somehow know what an Elf looks like, even though they supposedly do not exist. A Tolkien Elf is not far from a Biblical angel. When you hear/read/think/imagine angels, do they have beards? No. Are they a bit androgynous fair? Yes. I just think it's so ironic that we have these images in our mind (planted, naturally occurring?) when these creatures are supposedly non-existent.

As for the "pre-contact," generally, pre-contact means an aboriginal society before a "technologically superior" society makes contact with them and "changes" them. For Native Americans they usually say "pre-Columbian" meaning pre-Christopher Columbus.

Maybe read some John Zerzan or Daniel Quinn's "Ishmael" or "The Story of B" for a layman's version of "modern" anthropology.
Elthir
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Post RE: Elven Physiques
on: February 24, 2011 06:21
Rog, I think you are thinking of note 7 to the Disaster of the Gladden Fields.

The note is possibly slightly vague on whether or not the horses in Numenor could have been better suited for war -- it is said the Numenoreans did not use these in war, for all their wars were overseas. Yet next the reader is told of the great stature of the Numenoreans, and the heavy armour and weapons -- does this intend to raise a potential problem concerning the horses just mentioned, or those about to be mentioned, or both?

Anyway the next sentence after this stature and weight consideration describes that the Numenoreans acquired horses in Middle-earth, but they were used little for riding, except in sport and pleasure -- though in war they were used by couriers and light armed archers 'often not of Numenorean race'.

Still, it seems horses were used in the Battle of the Last Alliance, though such that they used suffered great losses and few were available in Osgiliath. The implication seems to be that the stature of the Numenoreans -- when fully equipped with heavy armour and weapons anyway -- was at least a factor here.


And what about the Elves of the First Age, if they (or at least some) were generally seven foot-ish too? It was said, for instance, that the cavalry of the Noldor rode even to the shadow of Thangorodrim '... for from few their horses had increased swiftly, and the grass of Ard-dalen was rich and green. Of these horses many of the sires came from Valinor, and they were given to Fingolfin by Maedhros...'

Maedhros the Tall that is

Perhaps the horses involved made a difference? Or maybe the Elves were generally leaner and lighter, or bore lighter arms? Or maybe a detail like Legolas (described as as tall as a young tree by JRRT) being able to run on the snow could be raised here, in speculation at least; I don't know.

Anyway, I think that's the note you are looking for.
RogHammerofWrath
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Post RE: Elven Physiques
on: February 24, 2011 08:10
I think that was it. I knew somewhere it alluded that the Numernoreans were of such height and stature they might be to large to field cavalry.

Here is a link to a story on Angus McCaskill, the largest true giant(non glandular problem) man on record. In the photo his wax figure is standing next to a 6'4" inch man, or a man the size of Boromir. You can see, as impressive as Boromir was, he would have been dwarfed by Elendil and the notes that allude to the reasoning behind a lack of Numenorean cavalry make sense. No horse could bear a man of that size in full plate armor. The man would weigh 35 stone and the armor another 10 stone. The tall Noldo Lords must have been much thinner of build to field cavalry.

http://www.macaskill.com/GeneralTallTales/Angus/angus3.html

Was there any size difference between Numenoreans and First Age men, say of the house of Hador?

[Edited on 24/2/2011 by RogHammerofWrath]

[Edited on 24/2/2011 by RogHammerofWrath]
Elthir
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Post RE: Elven Physiques
on: February 25, 2011 04:46
Here is a link to a story on Angus McCaskill, the largest true giant(non glandular problem) man on record. In the photo his wax figure is standing next to a 6'4" inch man, or a man the size of Boromir. You can see, as impressive as Boromir was, he would have been dwarfed by Elendil (...)


As Angus is 7 foot 9, I think it depends upon which Elendil Tolkien ended up with (although 7 feet arguably still makes 6 foot 4 'look small' so to speak). I tend to guess JRRT made Elendil seven feet tall, possibly because if he desired Thingol (for instance) to be taller than Elendil -- than a nearly 8 foot Elendil, as in Unfinished Tales -- this would make Thingol 'too tall'. As I say, just a guess.

Assuming Tolkien, each time he sat down to write about a given subject, was surely remembering and considering all his other references written at various times. We can collect and compare his various letters, texts, notes, but we don't know that he (always) did.

(...) and the notes that allude to the reasoning behind a lack of Numenorean cavalry make sense.


Tolkien certainly seems to think a tall Numenorean in full heavy armour was a factor, but branching off from my point: when Tolkien wrote this, did he consider the Eldar? And once doing so (if he didn't), would he have thought anything problematic since the Eldar were also very tall and had cavalry?

Which brings me to my next point: in Tolkien's world, if we can have seven foot tall warriors on horses, I think we can have larger, stronger horses too (although admittedly an 'easy' enough approach, this might serve to explain the matter if Tolkien found that adding the Eldar into the mix made things a bit more problematic).

Someone (not here) once asked about the orcs who rode wolves. My answer was and would be: since we know some orcs did ride wolves, there must have been orcs small enough -- or wolves large enough for such a thing. The steeds of Beleriand (escpecially if sired by horses of Aman) and Numenor could have been 'greater' than certain horses of Middle-earth.

No horse could bear a man of that size in full plate armor. The man would weigh 35 stone and the armor another 10 stone. The tall Noldo Lords must have been much thinner of build to field cavalry.


As I say, possibly the Eldar had greater horses, instead of needing to be much thinner, or made lighter weaponry; but in any event, although I'm certainly no expert in arms and armor, I don't think the Eldar or Numenoreans had full plate armor -- if by that we are basically thinking of the same thing, that is.

Was there any size difference between Numenoreans and First Age men, say of the house of Hador?


In a late text (Of Dwarves And Men) it's noted that Men as tall as the folk of Hador were rare among the folk of Beor, but I can't recall at the moment any possible comparisons that might shed some light on this particular question (though the Numenoreans were generally said to be taller than the Men of Middle-earth of course).


By the way, apologies for my somewhat annoying and pedantic response here, but as I like to put it: Tolkien was not against changing his mind! and I'm not sure he always remembered what he had written from one month to the next, or one year to the next.

Not that you said otherwise! but to explain my pedantry

[Edited on 25/2/2011 by Elthir]
RogHammerofWrath
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Post RE: Elven Physiques
on: February 25, 2011 06:37
No need to apologize, I appreciate all the info. Thanks.
Cressida
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Post RE: Elven Physiques
on: February 26, 2011 12:25
I'd just like to toss another quotation into the mix, from Tolkien's letter #131:

The Númenóreans ... are in constant communication with their ancient friends and allies, either in the bliss of Eressea, or in the kingdom of Gilgalad on the shores of Middle-earth. They became thus in appearance, and even in powers of mind, hardly distinguishable from the Elves...


(Emphasis mine.)

It seems that whatever we can conclude about the appearance of Elves should go for Númenóreans as well, which is why this passage is frequently invoked in the very heated Númenórean facial hair debates which, believe it or not, rage in certain corners of the fandom!
RogHammerofWrath
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Post RE: Elven Physiques
on: February 26, 2011 05:38
That kind of makes sense. I am assuming since it mentions Gil-Gilad it references their appearance to the Noldor. I believe somewhere it describes the Noldor as having a powerful build. It would also preserve the ability to reason the great kings or princes like Feanor, Fingolfin, Finafrin, Fingon, Argon, Turgon, Thingol, Maedhros etc., or the great captains like Glorfindel, Penlod, Galdor, Ecthelion, or Rog to have stood above the tall among men.
Elthir
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Post RE: Elven Physiques
on: February 27, 2011 04:11
I remembered this citation from letters but wondered if it necessarily meant that the Numenoreans 'became' taller in Numenor (meaning that even this aspect of appearance is surely involved). It might depend upon how tall they were to start with, in comparison to Elves, but in any event the Edain had (generally speaking) been in contact with Elves in Beleriand for roughly three hundred years before the Second Age began (or at least some).

The quote from Letters reminds me of...

'Therefore they grew wise and glorious, and in all things more like to the Firstborn than any other of the kindreds of men; and they were tall, taller than the tallest of the sons of Middle-earth.'

Akallabeth


This might suggest that the Numenoreans increased in stature -- despite 'were' instead of 'grew' in the second part of the sentence -- due to the close proximity of these ideas. If so perhaps the Edain became taller in Numenor than they had been in Beleriand (at least in general).

The Hadorians of Beleriand were certainly tall, but maybe they decreased a bit due to intermarriage...


'For the most part [the Folk of Hador] were a tall people, with flaxen or golden hair and blue-grey eyes, but there were not a few among them that had dark hair though all were fair skinned (...) There were fair-haired men and women among the Folk of Beor, but most had brown hair (going usually with brown eyes), and many were less fair in skin some indeed being swarthy. Men as tall as the folk of Hador were rare among them, and most were broader and more heavy in build. In association with the Eldar (...) they became as enhanced in arts and manners as the folk of Hador, but if these surpassed them in swiftness of mind and body, in daring and noble generosity, the Folk of Beor were more steadfast in endurance of hardship and sorrow (...) But these differences of body and mind became less marked as their short generations passed, for the two peoples became much mingled by intermarriage and by the disasters of the War.'

JRRT, Of Dwarves and Men.


Again, to become taller in Numenor?

I feel like there are still some passages out there for consideration (I don't have my Peoples of Middle-Earth handy at the moment).
RogHammerofWrath
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Post RE: Elven Physiques
on: February 27, 2011 08:08
The only other references I can think of are very specific to men aside from Elendil are Beorn and Helm Hammerhand.

Beorn is clearly described as being gigantic. If you were to extrapolate from Bilbo being able to walk underneath Beorn's tunic which came to his knees without ducking, Beorn proportions become immense at that point, almost Troll size. I don't know if we will ever know what Beorn is though, even though Tolkien claimed him a man. It was only ever discussed in one letter if I am not mistaken.

Helm Hammerhand is the other. He is compared to a Snow Troll in size and so strong that he could kill with a blow from his fist. Clearly he is human and is the only individual I can think of that may contend with more specific description. He could however instead of be more like the Angus McCaskill or real world acclaim just an enormous man of massive proportion. A giant in that he is over 7+ feet but equally impressive in massive proportion.

I get the feeling, especially with Tolkien's affinity to Anglo-Saxon, Scandinavian culture that Beorn and Helm are comparable to Beowulf and Grettir.

I just get the impression with the constant comparison of the men of Numenor to the Eldar that they were more lithe in form and very similar.

[Edited on 27/2/2011 by RogHammerofWrath]

[Edited on 27/2/2011 by RogHammerofWrath]
Cressida
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Post RE: Elven Physiques
on: February 27, 2011 10:52
We should also remember that Túrin is a pre-Númenórean example of a Man who apparently looked a great deal like an Elf, to the point of being known as "Adanedhel" (Man-Elf). I'm not sure what that means for the argument one way or the other, though!

Re changes that happened in Númenor: Perhaps they came in part from the mixing of the appearances of the original Houses of Men, especially the houses of Hador and Bëor? The classic Númenorean look is for Bëorian coloring (dark hair, pale skin, grey eyes) and Hadorian height.

[Edited on 27/2/2011 by Cressida]
Elthir
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Post RE: Elven Physiques
on: March 01, 2011 05:00
There's also, note 47, Of Dwarves And Men...

'The Eldar said, and recalled in the songs they still sang in later days, that they [the folk of Hador] could not easily be distinguished from the Eldar -- not while their youth lasted, the swift fading of which was to the Eldar a grief and a mystery.'


The same text had noted that the Hadorians were tall, but did not compare them to the Eldar specifically in this respect. That the Hadorians might have been 'notably' and consistently shorter than the Eldar (at this point) seems doubtful to me, though it's hard to know if Tolkien was certainly thinking of height as a possibly distinguishing factor within his 'not easily' here.

In (my) summation, I think it might be safe to say that the Eldar were generally taller than Men -- except maybe equalled by enough of the Beleriandic Hadorians -- but in any case, for a time before they dwindled, they were certainly equalled by the Numenoreans.

That would be based on Of Dwarves And Men.

If however the late notes published by H&S are considered as 'later', I would say that, again for a time at least, in general the Numenoreans were taller than the average 6 and a half-foot full grown Eldarin Men -- though some of the Eldar arguably equalled 7 feet or nearly so, as even a few like Thingol and Turgon (and Argon) were perhaps actually taller.

I don't know if others agree with that summation, but if not tell me why
RogHammerofWrath
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Post RE: Elven Physiques
on: March 01, 2011 11:03
There definitely enough ambiguity to go either way and as you have pointed out, without exact dating, it's hard to infer where Tolkien was settling his mind on the issue.

If you simply take what was published, regardless of date, I think I would lean that the average Numenorean's were quite large and rivaled the Eldarin in height and probably by a good measure exceeded them in overall stature. I finally looked at Note 7 again and it surely alludes that horses are revered by the men of Numernor but not used because of their size and the weight of arms and armor. I think one would have to assume first age horses were greater if the Noldo were as large and fielded effective cavalry or that the Eldar were much lighter of build and or used lighter weapons. I think the latter is easier to accept because there are numerous references to Elves being of lithe build and men being of greater stature as far as girth.


In the appendix on Numenorean measurements, the note regarding Elendil's height is pretty specific at placing him a 7'11". He is also referred to the tallest Numenorean to escape Numenor which implies there were perhaps others who were taller? Also, unlike the Hammond and Scull reference, no where else I have read that Isuldur was as tall as his father. Did CJRT, edit the Hammond and Scull work you reference? As a general rule, I would count the work he has personally edited as the most accurate. He is essentially the guardian of JRRT's literary work and deference would have to be given to what he has edited.

[Edited on 1/3/2011 by RogHammerofWrath]
Elthir
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Post RE: Elven Physiques
on: March 02, 2011 09:40
If you simply take what was published, regardless of date, I think I would lean that the average Numenorean's were quite large and rivaled the Eldarin in height and probably by a good measure exceeded them in overall stature.


Well I guess good measure is subjective, but how lean should we imagine a 7 foot Elf (or even an Elf 6 foot 6, or 6 foot ? I don't imagine a Numenorean as making a great Elf lord look small by comparison (though again 'small' is subjective).

We need a chart

I finally looked at Note 7 again and it surely alludes that horses are revered by the men of Numernor but not used because of their size and the weight of arms and armor.


Well I would still add that note 7 at least seems a bit ambiguous as to whether or not the Numenorean horses (as opposed to the horses used in Middle-earth) are to be included as being somewhat problematic regarding full warrior weight. Possibly, yes; but I'm not sure I would say it's certain (not that you said so).

I think one would have to assume first age horses were greater if the Noldo were as large and fielded effective cavalry or that the Eldar were much lighter of build and or used lighter weapons. I think the latter is easier to accept because there are numerous references to Elves being of lithe build and men being of greater stature as far as girth.


Perhaps, but for me it's also not that difficult to imagine greater horses in Beleriand hailing from the horses of Aman. Thousands of years passed before we get to Shadowfax and the Mearas of the Third Age for instance, and these are given a legendary connection to Aman due to their notability. Yet in the First Age...

'Of those horses many of the sires came from Valinor, and they were given to Fingolfin by Maedhros in atonement of his losses, for they had been carried by ship to Losgar.' Silmarillion

Plus I would not rule out some sort of magical component here, something that defies the senses regarding Elvish bodies. I doubt Legolas could have run over the snow simply because he was that much leaner of build than Aragorn or Boromir -- how he did this, and still have enough weight to be a formidable warrior -- is not known, or explained; but it might suggest something 'unexplainable' that could help here.

Though I prefer 'greater horses' than to try to find the bounce within that particular ball! Or the matter could be as you suggest, but I'm not convinced that Tolkien truly considered what this note might mean for the *Elrohirrim or 'Elf-knights' of Beleriand.

In the appendix on Numenorean measurements, the note regarding Elendil's height is pretty specific at placing him a 7'11". He is also referred to the tallest Numenorean to escape Numenor which implies there were perhaps others who were taller? Also, unlike the Hammond and Scull reference, no where else I have read that Isuldur was as tall as his father.


But no where else have I read that Elendil was nearly eight feet tall, if we subtract that one note in Unfinished Tales. The H&S notes are late, so it's not that unexpected that the detail of Isildur being as tall as Elendil is not found in other extant texts.

Did CJRT, edit the Hammond and Scull work you reference? As a general rule, I would count the work he has personally edited as the most accurate. He is essentially the guardian of JRRT's literary work and deference would have to be given to what he has edited.


H&S note...

'For assistance and advice in the production of this book and of the anniversary edition of The Lord of the Rings, for providing the copies of papers and quotations by his father referred to above, and for his trust in our ability to write a book of annotations worthy to be a companion to his father's masterpiece, we are once again exeedingly grateful to Christopher Tolkien.'

I trust that they quoted these descriptions accurately


[Edited on 3/3/2011 by Elthir]
Cressida
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Post RE: Elven Physiques
on: March 02, 2011 03:34
... there are numerous references to Elves being of lithe build and men being of greater stature as far as girth.

Rog, which references are you thinking of regarding men's greater girth? All the ones I know of point to Númenóreans looking basically like Elves, which would surely include similarity of build. The only thing I can think of is the bit in UT about the Rohirrim being generally somewhat shorter and stockier than Númenóreans.

Also, we've drifted a bit from the original question; does this mean we're agreed that the typical Elf is not massive in build? Could there be outliers?

A further thought: I don't know that Tolkien's latest thoughts on a subject are necessarily his, for lack of a better word, purest. Some of his late writings, IMVHO, drift away from the flavor his writings had when they were "hot and personal."

[Edited on 3/3/2011 by Cressida]
RogHammerofWrath
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Post RE: Elven Physiques
on: March 02, 2011 04:39
I guess not having exact dating makes it impossible to remove any ambiguity.

As far comparison, I know there is several statements in the Children of Hurin, regarding Turin and Beleg. Even when Tolkien refers to Beleg as stoutly built, he qualifies it by stating "as such for his kind". That kind of implies, Elves are generally lighter in build. I know the Dragon Helm of Hador could only be worn by Drarves or Men of great stature such as Hador, Galdor, or Turin and was to bulky for Elves or even smaller men like Hurin to don, strong as he was. I suppose there could be outlier Elves but I can't recall one being described in detail. A lot of references to many individual Elf Lords being very tall or valiant and strong. Of course, I haven't read all the history of middle earth.

The Men of Numenor are compared to the House of Hador. I don't think it means Elves are bean poles by any measure, just there is enough difference in "bulk" or girth that something like the Dragon Helm of Dor Lomin could only be born by a Dwarf or a Man of great stature.

[Edited on 3/3/2011 by RogHammerofWrath]

[Edited on 3/3/2011 by RogHammerofWrath]

[Edited on 3/3/2011 by RogHammerofWrath]
Cressida
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Post RE: Elven Physiques
on: March 07, 2011 06:58
Hmm, so does all the support for the "Men are more massive" idea come from TCoH? If so, I'm not sure I'd be willing to take that as a given for all Tolkien's work. It might represent the survival of one of his earlier ideas, since he worked on that particular story for pretty much his entire writing career, or perhaps it's only meant to apply to the First Age. Or even just to Túrin himself--maybe he's meant to be be a very burly Man.

Regarding horses, I don't have any trouble believing that the horses of Númenor might be more massive than those of Middle-Earth. Virtually everything seems to have become bigger, more beautiful, and more impressive in the atmosphere of Númenor, and also, the fuss over Shadowfax in LOTR already makes it clear that there are greater and lesser horses in Tolkien's world.

[Edited on 9/3/2011 by Cressida]
Elthir
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Post RE: Elven Physiques
on: March 13, 2011 06:07
Hmm, with respect to The Children of Húrin references:

1) Rog, can you (or anyone) remind me where the qualification 'as such for his kind' appears with respect to Beleg's description?

2) The Dragon-helm: for the long prose Children of Húrin (somewhat recently published), Christopher Tolkien notes that he omitted the description of the history of the helm as found in Unfinished Tales. He doesn't really say why specifically, but this includes the description that implies the 'stoutness' of the wearer was a factor, and so the notion is eliminated in the story -- the description jumps to Húrin not wearing the Helm with ease, but without the former text, this need not necessarily refer to stature or strength.


For my own part, I find it a bit hard to understand this reference within the later context of the relative stature of Elves and Men, or even how it could be that Húrin -- so mighty a Man -- could not wear the Helm 'with ease' despite that he was not as tall as others. In The Children of Húrin (again meaning the long prose, 'complete' one volume version), Túrin while still young, though of notable stature, finally wears the Helm, and still it was said that Beleg was 'mightier in arms' than Túrin at this point.

While that need not mean he was as 'broad' perhaps, as Túrin, I find the idea that the Helm was somehow fit for a young Túrin but not fit for the tall and powerful Elf-lords of Hithlum -- as they were ultimately imagined anyway -- a bit odd.

Again, if Elves were generally lighter of build that's one thing. And granted I know next to nothing about helms, but so far, this notion of Elves not having the ability to wear a Helm that at least some Men can wear seems odd to me.

And it wasn't made for Men in the first place, but for a Dwarf!

Horses

Moving from my ignorance of helms to horses...

At another forum, a person by the name of Kiranell Mordagnir wrote:


The height of the elves would have meant that the height of the horses would have had to have been taller, as they wouldn't have wanted their feet dragging on the ground. With the elves being lighter than men, their armor being lighter (I would imagine) than traditional medieval armor, and their horses being larger just to accommodate the elves' tall stature, I think that the horses of the elves might have been as tall as 16-18 hands (each hand is 4 inches, about the width of your hand, and horses are measured at the shoulder, not at the head). Although this is about the height of a Clydesdale, I would think that because the weight would not be such an issue because of the above-mentioned points, they would have been lightly built, much like the elves themselves.


I then asked if the height Kiranell was considering was that from Of Dwarves And Men -- wondering that if it represented the 'latest' idea (in which, in general, the Elves seem taller), certain horses of the Primary World could still work.


Kiranell Mordagnir responded: For the half a foot difference, the variation in the height of the horses would be about the two hand difference allowable in the breed. Full-grown humans (generally about 5 and a half feet tall) ride horses anywhere from 14-18 hh with no problems; my point was simply that the elves would have to only use horses on the high end of that range. A Clydesdale, a Shire, or a Percheron could probably comfortably carry someone as tall as even seven and a half or eight feet if they needed to. The bigger horses were origionally bred to carry medieval knights in all their armour, which weighed a ton, so the weight (or not) of the elves would not be an issue. The horses would therefore not need to be built particularly heavily.'



Again I know next to nothing of these things, but maybe some 'Horse-friends' here might comment.



[Edited on 13/3/2011 by Elthir]
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