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Grizzwald
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Post How could Sauron not at least even consider that the ring is being taken to be destroyed?
on: January 31, 2013 11:12
Ok, so. Sauron, evil genius, master of war cunning and I dare say wise.

You'd think he'd at least have taken into account the fact that destroying the one ring would utterly end him and so would take some, even small, measures to prevent this from happening.

He knows it is in the hands of a Hobbit, even up unto the point when he ensares Pippin (who he believes is holding the ring) through the Palantir, after the battle of helms deep. Surely he must of asked himself why a Hobbit is keeping the ring and not an Elf Lord or King for eg.

Secondly hobbits are actually discovered in Cirith Ungol but then escape. Maybe one of them has the ring and is taking it to the fires of Orodruin? The one and only place where it can possibly be destroyed, causing his complete destruction.

I know it is said because his mind is bent on power and domination he thus judges the hearts and minds of others, so wouldn't "in his darkest dreams" think it would be taken to be destroyed, but with the evidence at hand, the huge risk, plus the small amount of effort it would take to prevent this from happening just seems a little bit foolish not to even consider it for a second.

Or am I completely wrong?

Anyone else have any thoughts on this?
Ironfoot
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Post Re: How could Sauron not at least even consider that the ring is being taken to be destroyed?
on: January 31, 2013 11:32
Well first off I believe he does not consider the Hobbits to be any sort of threat. He did take measures, however, to recapture the One Ring...by sending out the Nine Nazguls. When the Hobbits are discovered in Cirith Ungol, the Orcs probably did not report this to Sauron. They probably did not consider it to be of importance, considering the amassing of Sauron's army.
Also, it was all a part of the plan to sway Sauron's attention away from the Hobbits and toward the last stand of the Free Peoples. That is why Aragorn revealed the reforged blade Narsil to Sauron and marched an army to the Black Gate.

Very Good question!
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tarcolan
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Post Re: How could Sauron not at least even consider that the ring is being taken to be destroyed?
on: February 01, 2013 05:35
There are many such questions about the story, such as why didn't the eagles take the Ring, what took Gandalf so long, poor Death Star design, where did Pooh bear get helium from etc. The easy answer is that it made for a better story. And we wouldn't have that brilliant line about the ginormity of his folly or something.

Aragorn challenges him soon after Pippin looked into the stone, and it's reasonable that Sauron's first mistake in assuming Pippin is the Ringbearer is compounded by Aragorn's bold challenge and he assumes that Aragorn now has the Ring. Arrogance, fear and malice are powerful blinkers. On the other hand, a big locked door at Sammath Naur would've been a wise precaution.
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Lord_Sauron
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Post Re: How could Sauron not at least even consider that the ring is being taken to be destroyed?
on: February 01, 2013 06:33
Yes that is a good question, Sauron believed that whoever found the ring would take it for themselves and use it against him, so when Aragorn challenged him, Sauron did think Aragorn had it. If they used the eagles i think it would have been a very short story and if Sauron saw eagles comming he would off had them shot down. Their mission had to be secret if Sauron knew he would of launched his attack on Gondor early and may have set a trap in Mt Doom. (my opinion).
Also in Cirith Ungol only Frodo was captured and he didn't have the ring as Sam took it in thinking Frodo was dead. If the ring was still with Frodo the orcs would have taken it and once they put it on the nine would of come and get it or perhaps Sauron himself would have come and take it back.
Leoflic_Nightleaf
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Post Re: How could Sauron not at least even consider that the ring is being taken to be destroyed?
on: February 01, 2013 06:46
If I were Sauron, I would have put an Eagle-proof umbrella over Mount Doom. That might hold them off. And put a nice finger and retina scanner to open the lock on the door to Barad-dur.
Grizzwald
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Post Re: How could Sauron not at least even consider that the ring is being taken to be destroyed?
on: February 01, 2013 09:41
Quote from tarcolan on February 1, 2013, 15:35
There are many such questions about the story, such as why didn't the eagles take the Ring, what took Gandalf so long, poor Death Star design, where did Pooh bear get helium from etc. The easy answer is that it made for a better story. And we wouldn't have that brilliant line about the ginormity of his folly or something.

Aragorn challenges him soon after Pippin looked into the stone, and it's reasonable that Sauron's first mistake in assuming Pippin is the Ringbearer is compounded by Aragorn's bold challenge and he assumes that Aragorn now has the Ring. Arrogance, fear and malice are powerful blinkers. On the other hand, a big locked door at Sammath Naur would've been a wise precaution.


Hmm yes. I guess in the end Sauron was just a little bit stupid, and was outplayed in a way by Gandalf if you look at the whole affair as a kind of chess game. As for the eagles maybe they just couldn't be trusted? Gwaihir would have made for an interesting dark lord don't you think?

Gwaihir: Sure Gandalf! I will take the ring into Mordor... ehehehe
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Post Re: How could Sauron not at least even consider that the ring is being taken to be destroyed?
on: February 01, 2013 03:48
Well if the Council of Elrond realised it was a near impossible task, maybe Sauron hadn't really considered it as an option since he thought it *was* impossible to destroy his ring. After all if its his creation, he'd be pretty blind to its weaknesses.
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Elthir
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Post Re: How could Sauron not at least even consider that the ring is being taken to be destroyed?
on: February 01, 2013 07:26
Tolkien explained:

'... There was another weakness: if the One ring was actually unmade, annihilated, then its power would be dissolved... But that he never contemplated or feared. The Ring was unbreakable by any smithcraft less than his own. It was indissoluble in any fire, save the undying subterranean fire where it was made - and that was unapproachable in Mordor.
[I break the text here for emphasis]

Also so great was the Ring's power of lust, that anyone who used it became mastered by it; it was beyond the strength of any will (even his own) to injure it, cast it away, or neglect it. So he thought. (...)'

JRRT, Letters


Also, as noted, Frodo was captured without the Ring, and later Sam and Frodo overhear a conversation between a soldier-orc and a tracker in Mordor:

'Whose blame's that?' said the soldier. 'Not mine. That comes from Higher Up. First they say it's a great Elf in bright armour, then it's a sort of small dwarf-man, then it must be a pack of rebel Uruk-hai; or maybe it's all the lot together.'

So there seems to be some confusion as to exactly what happened. In any case even Frodo could not ultimately cast the One into the fire.
Grizzwald
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Post Re: How could Sauron not at least even consider that the ring is being taken to be destroyed?
on: February 01, 2013 10:24
Quote from Elthir on February 2, 2013, 05:26
Tolkien explained:

'... There was another weakness: if the One ring was actually unmade, annihilated, then its power would be dissolved... But that he never contemplated or feared. The Ring was unbreakable by any smithcraft less than his own. It was indissoluble in any fire, save the undying subterranean fire where it was made - and that was unapproachable in Mordor.
[I break the text here for emphasis]

Also so great was the Ring's power of lust, that anyone who used it became mastered by it; it was beyond the strength of any will (even his own) to injure it, cast it away, or neglect it. So he thought. (...)'

JRRT, Letters


Also, as noted, Frodo was captured without the Ring, and later Sam and Frodo overhear a conversation between a soldier-orc and a tracker in Mordor:

'Whose blame's that?' said the soldier. 'Not mine. That comes from Higher Up. First they say it's a great Elf in bright armour, then it's a sort of small dwarf-man, then it must be a pack of rebel Uruk-hai; or maybe it's all the lot together.'

So there seems to be some confusion as to exactly what happened. In any case even Frodo could not ultimately cast the One into the fire.


I guess he (Sauron) didn't hear about what happened in Mount Doom just after the war of the last alliance; the first attempt to have the ring destroyed might have made him just a tad concerned.
tarcolan
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Post Re: How could Sauron not at least even consider that the ring is being taken to be destroyed?
on: February 02, 2013 02:32
This is Gandalf talking to Frodo in Book 1, Chapter 2 The Shadow Of The Past:
"He [Sauron] believed that it had perished; that the Elves had destroyed it, as should have been done."

If Sauron had believed that he had survived the destruction of the Ring, perhaps he didn't think it would be so dangerous for him if the Ring was destroyed. When it became clear to him that the Ring had survived he had grown so attached to this belief that he didn't change it. Or maybe Gandalf was wrong on this point as he was on so many others. Besides which, as Elthir points out, he knew that nobody could deliberately cause harm to the Ring, and the chances of an accident were so slim as to be laughable. Har har.
The identity of the intruder had at least been cleared up by the time the army arrived at the Black Gate, although Sauron's fear of Aragorn probably affected his critical faculties at this time. He just never put two and two together.
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Elthir
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Post Re: How could Sauron not at least even consider that the ring is being taken to be destroyed?
on: February 02, 2013 04:10
I guess he (Sauron) didn't hear about what happened in Mount Doom just after the war of the last alliance; the first attempt to have the ring destroyed might have made him just a tad concerned.


Well, if he had heard he would have learned that Isildur chose not to destroy the One, which appears to fit well enough with Tolkien's...

'Also so great was the Ring's power of lust, that anyone who used it became mastered by it; it was beyond the strength of any will (even his own) to injure it, cast it away, or neglect it. So he thought. (...)'
Grizzwald
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Post Re: How could Sauron not at least even consider that the ring is being taken to be destroyed?
on: February 02, 2013 12:20
All right. So he completely overlooked the matter entirely simply because of his firm belief that none had the will to harm the one ring. While the fires burning within Mount Doom which I imagine stood ominously in the foreground seemed not a threat in the slightest, and so was completely forgotten and ignored, to his peril.


edit* and that is only if you completely ignore tarcolan's post about Sauron actually believing the ring had been destroyed. Which really only raises more questions.
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Post Re: How could Sauron not at least even consider that the ring is being taken to be destroyed?
on: February 02, 2013 01:01
I just think that Sauron couldn't perceive of the bearer of the ring NOT wanting the power that came from putting it on a finger. He was so sure that everyone would want the power of the Ring for themselves that he just couldn't comprehend that any ringbearer would want to destroy it.
Elthir
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Post Re: How could Sauron not at least even consider that the ring is being taken to be destroyed?
on: February 03, 2013 08:01
All right. So he completely overlooked the matter entirely simply because of his firm belief that none had the will to harm the one ring.


Well that's not the only reason, as already noted in the thread... but even this reason is no small reason in itself, in my opinion.
Grizzwald
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Post Re: How could Sauron not at least even consider that the ring is being taken to be destroyed?
on: February 03, 2013 09:14
Quote from Elthir on February 3, 2013, 18:01
All right. So he completely overlooked the matter entirely simply because of his firm belief that none had the will to harm the one ring.


Well that's not the only reason, as already noted in the thread... but even this reason is no small reason in itself, in my opinion.



And I noticed you ignored tarcolan's post about Sauron actually believing the ring had been destroyed.
tarcolan
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Post Re: How could Sauron not at least even consider that the ring is being taken to be destroyed?
on: February 04, 2013 12:21
I think the absolute certainty that none could harm the Ring came from Tolkien's theological belief that evil cannot in the end be resisted alone by any incarnate being. We have to accept that this has been imported into his sub-creation.

I'm not surprised that Elthir hasn't commented on the Gandalf quote. How could he possibly know what Sauron believed, unless he found his diary in Dol Guldur. It is at best a guess, but does raise a question. When was it known that destroying the Ring would totally defeat Sauron? In the Council they are deciding between two courses of action, whether to hide it or destroy it. The intention is to deprive Sauron of the Ring. Only later is it stated that destruction would break Sauron's power. I don't know that it is ever stated that it would totally diminish and dissipate Sauron's spirit. Perhaps no-one knew, not even Sauron.

The other reason that Elthir may be keeping silent is to deflect attention from this chapter, where earlier on Gandalf tells Frodo something even more disturbing. We should not delve too greedily or too deep, lest we wake the fearful Balrog of inconsistency.
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cirdaneth
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Post Re: How could Sauron not at least even consider that the ring is being taken to be destroyed?
on: February 04, 2013 02:54
Well said, Tarcolan. Meanwhile there is Eru to consider. Manwe was able to consult him and communicate to the other Valar. Since Gandalf and Saruman were their emmissaries it is probable that they knew, or at least suspected, that destruction of the ring would put an end to Sauron. (Don't forget that he was a Maia too)His continued existence in Middle-Earth could have suggested to them that the ring was still in existence somewhere, and therefore a great danger.
Lord_Sauron
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Post Re: How could Sauron not at least even consider that the ring is being taken to be destroyed?
on: February 04, 2013 05:03
Sauron in my opinion would have known that Isildur didn't destroy the ring why? because if you remember the Nazgul were also bound to the ring, so if Isildur had of destroyed the ring and Sauron managed to stay "alive" in Middle Earth he would not have been able to recall the Nazgul.

As we know Aragorn was hunted all his life, i think not only because he was the heir to the throne but perhaps Sauron believed Aragorn had the ring past down to him through generations. (if that makes sense).
Grizzwald
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Post Re: How could Sauron not at least even consider that the ring is being taken to be destroyed?
on: February 04, 2013 07:51
Quote from tarcolan on February 4, 2013, 10:21
I think the absolute certainty that none could harm the Ring came from Tolkien's theological belief that evil cannot in the end be resisted alone by any incarnate being. We have to accept that this has been imported into his sub-creation.

I'm not surprised that Elthir hasn't commented on the Gandalf quote. How could he possibly know what Sauron believed, unless he found his diary in Dol Guldur. It is at best a guess, but does raise a question. When was it known that destroying the Ring would totally defeat Sauron? In the Council they are deciding between two courses of action, whether to hide it or destroy it. The intention is to deprive Sauron of the Ring. Only later is it stated that destruction would break Sauron's power. I don't know that it is ever stated that it would totally diminish and dissipate Sauron's spirit. Perhaps no-one knew, not even Sauron.

The other reason that Elthir may be keeping silent is to deflect attention from this chapter, where earlier on Gandalf tells Frodo something even more disturbing. We should not delve too greedily or too deep, lest we wake the fearful Balrog of inconsistency.


Yet he was surprised I didn't mention some points in this thread. To be brutally honest I was merely trying to bow out of the debate, admittedly that I began with little thought. But it seems it must be continued.

Firstly my point about the Hobbits, or Hobbit being discovered in Cirith Ungol giving Sauron possible reason for pause, knowing of course that one of them might have been carrying the ring was argued, "There was confusion at their capture". This only adds to my point since it was known there was more than just Frodo. 'Who was with him? Elf-lord, Hobbit, Aragorn? What were they doing there? Did they have the ring?' This he [Sauron] did not know.

I accept tarcolan that the world of Middle Earth could be taken at least partly as a reflection of the beliefs of Tolkien himself, and I heartedly agree with you there. But also I think in trying to understand the deeper reasoning behind the character's motives we may better understand Tolkien and maybe ourselves.

As for Sauron knowing what destroying the ring meant. I think that was ultimately revealed when Frodo put on the ring at Sammath Naur. Sauron knew, or concluded I guess, as did the Elves, that destroying it, would destroy them both.

Though back to my original point I say Sauron knew the ring and he were "one", and unless he knew less about his own ring then did Gandalf, then he would know it would (and it did) try to get back to him. So piecing together his puzzle. Did he foolishly mislay that notion? Why?
Elthir
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Post Re: How could Sauron not at least even consider that the ring is being taken to be destroyed?
on: February 05, 2013 02:53
And I noticed you ignored tarcolan's post about Sauron actually believing the ring had been destroyed.


See Tarcolan's reply.

Yet he was surprised I didn't mention some points in this thread.


If you're referring to me here I never posted I was surprised you didn't mention something. I posted Tolkien's reason, adding it to the thread.

Firstly my point about the Hobbits, or Hobbit being discovered in Cirith Ungol giving Sauron possible reason for pause, knowing of course that one of them might have been carrying the ring was argued, "There was confusion at their capture". This only adds to my point since it was known there was more than just Frodo. 'Who was with him? Elf-lord, Hobbit, Aragorn? What were they doing there? Did they have the ring?' This he [Sauron] did not know.'


But don't forget the pack of rebel uruk-hai, which was also in the mix, which (in my opinion) means it was not known for certain that there was more than Frodo with respect to beings who should not have been there. At least initially.

And when the Mouth of Sauron speaks to Gandalf they speak of one spy.

Yes you can argue that something happened at Cirith Ungol so Sauron should have become more wary at this point: he found someone that didn't belong, but who did not have the One, and there was possibly someone with him according to the report, again if it was not rebel uruk-hai...

... but at this point Sauron still believed that no one would give up such power, and even if he desired to, that no one, not an Elf-lord nor Aragorn, even if he could make it to Mount Doom, could have done harm to the One.



cirdaneth
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Post Re: How could Sauron not at least even consider that the ring is being taken to be destroyed?
on: February 05, 2013 03:21
A word from your Moderator.

This is a good subject for debate, so thank you Grizzwold for starting it. Yet everyone is at liberty to bow in and out of threads as they feel inclined, even ones they started themselves, so no one should feel obliged to stay if they've had enough. Threads, however, take on a life of their own and we have some that have been going for a decade as new people discover Tolkien and join our ranks. I sometimes *bump* a thread for reconsideration, and sometimes people return with changed opinions. I don't think anyone's been 'ignoring' points. We just comment as time and computer access allow and can't always cover everything.

OK! Talk over. At ease ..... and carry on.
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Post Re: How could Sauron not at least even consider that the ring is being taken to be destroyed?
on: February 05, 2013 05:48
Grizzwald:
But it seems it must be continued
Oh it must, it must! You post questions in the book forum at your peril. Anyway it's just getting interesting. For example, I've read the book a few times, once from the point of view of the Ring and yet I still didn't spot the aforementioned Gandalf quotes until you asked this question. Always something new to find. But let's call them printing errors to be kind.

First can I say that Sauron was not destroyed, he is immortal. After the battle of the Last Alliance he was diminished to a spirit wandering in the wastelands and it took him 2000 years or more to pull himself together. So I expect he was acutely aware of the danger he was in from the destruction of the Ring.

Secondly, the events at Cirith Ungol. The alarm was raised by a Nazgûl concerning spies. None of the orcs knew Frodo was a hobbit, they had probably never heard of them. It is well known that heirarchical organisations have a problem with the upward flow of information. As Elthir's quote makes clear no-one seemed to know what was going on, and none of them were keen to send in a report, certainly not to admit there was and Elf-warrior on the loose. The battle of the Pelennor was underway and the Witch King was soon to fall, further confusing the situation. Sauron had delegated to a Nazgûl at Cirith Ungol and the mess at the tower would be explained as an attack from outside, Elves and Gondorians.

So the question is when exactly did Sauron find out it was a hobbit? The Mouth of Sauron speaks of the spy as a Shire rat Elthir, so definitely by then. Probably when Sam and Frodo were already on the mountain. His army had just been defeated, a rag-tag army led by Aragorn was mounting a challenge. He had a lot on his mind so he can be forgiven for not immediately suspecting the truth. OK that's not a completely satisfactory explanation but as Tolkien himself said it's just a story.

Here's a thought: Denethor knew Frodo was in Mordor. Denethor used the palantir. Phew! That was close.
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Grizzwald
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Post Re: How could Sauron not at least even consider that the ring is being taken to be destroyed?
on: February 05, 2013 11:10
Thank you cirdaneth, and thank you all for your replies. I can only say I hope my last post is read more carefully and the ramifications considered. As for myself I have come to the conclusion that Sauron knew, as did the Elves, that destroying the one ring would not only destroy himself, but the Elves as well.

In knowing this he believed firmly they would not in their darkest dreams, with their allies, seek to have the ring destroyed. As he could not in any circumstance imagine one destroying themselves for good in order to gain victory, and so it was overlooked.

That of course is not canon merely my belief.

My last question remains unanswered.

Good luck to you all. *Bows out* (for the time being)

Thank you all again.

PS I will eventually get back to your posts and points when I find time and have thought more about them and this thread, if it seems relevant.

edit* PPS My mind at this point is a whur of thoughts. I wish I could state better my arguments and the reasons behind them but to do so would take a very long time to say.

PPPS And of course when I say destroyed I meant within the realm of middle earth, smarty pants.
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Post Re: How could Sauron not at least even consider that the ring is being taken to be destroyed?
on: February 05, 2013 11:35
So the question is when exactly did Sauron find out it was a hobbit? The Mouth of Sauron speaks of the spy as a Shire rat Elthir, so definitely by then.


Correct Tarcolan. I didn't mean to imply that this was still in doubt according to this conversation.

I went back to the text to confirm the number of possible 'good guys' that the Mouth had discussed with Gandalf, and was focusing on the number. Pippin reacts here, and the Mouth notes the Hobbitry involved so to speak, as you say, as well as the 'other peoples' in a tangent sense, with respect to the cloak, mail and blade.
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Post Re: How could Sauron not at least even consider that the ring is being taken to be destroyed?
on: February 05, 2013 12:42
Quote from tarcolan on February 5, 2013, 15:48

Here's a thought: Denethor knew Frodo was in Mordor. Denethor used the palantir. Phew! That was close.


Ok sorry but, what? Are you suggesting tarcolan that Denethor knew, through use of the palantir, what was the mission of Frodo? We know of course that Sauron also held a palantir, why did he not also see this?

Now things are really getting scary.
tarcolan
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Post Re: How could Sauron not at least even consider that the ring is being taken to be destroyed?
on: February 05, 2013 11:03
No, Grizzwald, I was suggesting that if Sauron had taken the time to probe Denethor's mind when he was using the palantir then he would have known Frodo had the Ring and was in Mordor. Denethor had found this out from Faramir and Gandalf beforhand. Luckily Sauron seems to have only been interested in breaking Denethor's sanity by feeding him a warped view of things. It was just a silly thought.

Just to clear up the timelines, Shagrat arrives at Barad-dûr on the 17th of March, Aragorn sets off the next day and Frodo arrives at Sammath Naur on 25th. Sauron had 8 days to think about it, so you're right in a way. Hmmm. I think the answers we've given are reasonable enough though.

It is still not clear how Sauron knew it was a hobbit, unless Shagrat described the prisoner to him. Sorry Elthir I thought you were saying that Sauron never knew he was a hobbit. I think Pippin's reaction just confirmed it.

Now on to your question Grizzwald, and the condition of my pants. Am I right in thinking that your question is- why didn't Sauron realise that the Ring would somehow make its way to Mordor? If so, why wasn't he ready for the possibility of someone bringing it there? I'm not sure that the Ring could have that level of detailed control over its keeper. For example Bilbo used the Ring a lot but seemed not to have any great desire to travel to Mordor, at least not for 60 odd years. I think it works more by getting the keeper to put it on and thus make itself known to both Sauron and the Ringwraiths. Gollum had stopped using it so he was no good to it and it left him.

My pants are actually quite scruffy but I still maintain that Sauron was not destroyed. It doesn't say this anywhere. In the Silmarillion it says that Sauron failed, was utterly vanquished and passed away like a shadow of malice. I don't think this means he died. In ROTK it says ... errr... I can't find the quote now, but something like his spirit was diminished and dispersed such that none could see his return in any age of the world. OK so effectively destroyed I'll give you that.

And finally, in case you're wondering about that other quote from the fascinating and all-important chapter 2, book 1; it's just before r becomes R. There's a nice riddle for you.
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Lord_Sauron
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Post Re: How could Sauron not at least even consider that the ring is being taken to be destroyed?
on: February 06, 2013 12:36
You are right Sauron was not killed after he the ring was destroyed because he is a Maia. After the ring was destroyed Sauron was sucked into the void. In the Silmarillion there is a prophercy that Mandos proclams that Morgoth will one day break down the door to the void which will start the final battle Dagor Dagorath. It is assumed when this happens Sauron and the other servants of Morgoth will also be released and join Morgoth.
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Post Re: How could Sauron not at least even consider that the ring is being taken to be destroyed?
on: February 06, 2013 01:41
Oh! My apologies to Grizzwald then, I didn't know Sauron was cast into the Void as well. Sorry.
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cirdaneth
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Post Re: How could Sauron not at least even consider that the ring is being taken to be destroyed?
on: February 06, 2013 03:40
Thanks Lord Sauron, I was going to post something like that but didn't have time today to check it out.
tarcolan
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Post Re: How could Sauron not at least even consider that the ring is being taken to be destroyed?
on: February 06, 2013 05:38
I don't suppose someone could provide a reference, I can't find it.
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Lord_Sauron
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Post Re: How could Sauron not at least even consider that the ring is being taken to be destroyed?
on: February 06, 2013 09:37
I found the reference saying that Sauron was cast into the Void, it says in the Silmarillion at the end of the chapter Valaquenta sub topic the enemies. i tried to summarise it but couldn't think of what to say but i will find the reference and post it
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Post Re: How could Sauron not at least even consider that the ring is being taken to be destroyed?
on: February 06, 2013 09:38
Here is the passage from the Silmarillion Valaquenta of Enemies

Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel. In his beginning he was of the Maiar of Aulë, and he remained mighty in the lore of that people. In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself. But in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void.”
Grizzwald
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Post Re: How could Sauron not at least even consider that the ring is being taken to be destroyed?
on: February 06, 2013 06:30
Quote from tarcolan on February 6, 2013, 09:03

Am I right in thinking that your question is- why didn't Sauron realise that the Ring would somehow make its way to Mordor? If so, why wasn't he ready for the possibility of someone bringing it there? I'm not sure that the Ring could have that level of detailed control over its keeper. For example Bilbo used the Ring a lot but seemed not to have any great desire to travel to Mordor, at least not for 60 odd years. I think it works more by getting the keeper to put it on and thus make itself known to both Sauron and the Ringwraiths. Gollum had stopped using it so he was no good to it and it left him.


Close, but not exactly. My question is Sauron must have known it was trying to find it's way back to him, so why didn't he realize when it came into Mordor? Especially after Frodo had been discovered in Cirith Ungol. I can't remember the exact quote but I believe it was Gandalf who said "He and the ring are one" and that it was trying to get back to it's master. The extent of the influence over it's keeper and other entities around it is I think an extremely difficult topic.

It seems to have power not only over it's holder but others as well, like Boromir for example. It seems to have a will of it's own. "It is all together evil".

As for leaving Gollum this happens when it 'realizes' Gollum would not leave the cave where he dwelt, ie. it was not going to get back to it's master as long as it stayed with him.

The ring seems to have lain dormant while Sauron was 'out of the picture' and made it's return so to speak, once Sauron began putting his thought towards finding it. As they are one, I imagine as long as Sauron is looking for it, it would be trying to return to him.

Gandalf

So now, when its master was awake once more sending out his dark thought from Mirkwood, it abandoned Gollum.


So basically I was suggesting that it was wanting to get back to its master and eventually finding its way into Mordor wasn't a coincidence.

It to me is actually starting to sound a little bit like a sad love story. The Ring and it's Master. Sauron ever seeking the one yet failing to see after it had sought so hard to find him also but alas! He allowed it to be destroyed at his folly. Right on his doorstep.

About which I wrote this short, terrible poem.

Through what perils hath thee come to me thither?
Into Mordor where from the darkness ever I sought
The ring the ring! We are one lest we are naught
Without thee surely shall I wither

Also I thank you Lord_Sauron, I would never have taken the time to find the quote in The Silmarillion entailing the destruction of Sauron. Even though I knew such to be true.

PS I will get back to your riddle tarcolan. My first guess is before Baggins becomes Underhill.
Elthir
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Post Re: How could Sauron not at least even consider that the ring is being taken to be destroyed?
on: February 06, 2013 10:00
To split some hairs here: no spirit can be destroyed, meaning reduced to nothing (not that anyone said otherwise), and even Tolkien's Men were 'killed' but their spirits were not destroyed of course. Sauron could likewise be killed but his spirit could not normally leave the World nor its Time.

Yet there is the Void, although even Tolkien doesn't seem wholly happy with Melkor 'in it':

'When that body was destroyed [...] we read that he was then put outside Time and Space, outside Ea altogether; but if that were so this would imply a direct intervention of Eru (with or without supplication of the Valar). It may however refer inaccurately* to the extrusion of flight of his spirit from Arda.

*Since the minds of Men (and even of the Elves) were inclined to confuse the 'Void', as a conception of the state of Not-being, outside Creation or Ea, with the conception of vast spaces within Ea, especially those conceived to lie about the enisled 'Kingdom of Arda' (which we should probably call the Solar System).'

Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed


Anyway, more specific to Sauron:

'The Elves certainly held and taught that fear or 'spirits' may grow of their own life (independently of the body), even as they may be hurt and healed, be diminished and renewed.' (note 11)

Author's note 11 [added marginally]:

'If they do not sink below a certain level. Since no fea can be annihilated, reduced to zero or non-existing, it is no[t] clear what is meant. Thus Sauron was said to have fallen below the point of ever recovering, though he had previously recovered. What is probably meant is that a 'wicked' spirit becomes fixed in a certain desire or ambition, and if it cannot repent then this desire becomes virtually its whole being. But the desire may be wholly beyond the weakness it has fallen to, and it will then be unable to withdraw its attention from the unobtainable desire, even to attend to itself. It will then remain for ever in impotent desire or memory of desire.'

JRRT, Myths Transformed, note 11 to text VII


The mention of Morgoth being thrust into the Timeless Void hails from the Silmarillion of the mid to later 1930s, although the Sauron reference in Valaquenta appears to have arisen in the QS second phase, the later 1950s. I'm not suggesting Tokien would have necessarily abandoned either reference, just noting the dating on each.

Of course it depends upon what one means by destroyed, and although Tarcolan and Grizzwald have already explained what they each meant, the Void also came up, and I thought this note on Sauron was interesting in any case.
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Post Re: How could Sauron not at least even consider that the ring is being taken to be destroyed?
on: February 06, 2013 10:30
Quote from Elthir on February 7, 2013, 08:00
To split some hairs here: no spirit can be destroyed, meaning reduced to nothing (not that anyone said otherwise), and even Tolkien's Men were 'killed' but their spirits were not destroyed of course. Sauron could likewise be killed but his spirit could not normally leave the World nor its Time.

Yet there is the Void, although even Tolkien doesn't seem wholly happy with Melkor 'in it':

'When that body was destroyed [...] we read that he was then put outside Time and Space, outside Ea altogether; but if that were so this would imply a direct intervention of Eru (with or without supplication of the Valar). It may however refer inaccurately* to the extrusion of flight of his spirit from Arda.

*Since the minds of Men (and even of the Elves) were inclined to confuse the 'Void', as a conception of the state of Not-being, outside Creation or Ea, with the conception of vast spaces within Ea, especially those conceived to lie about the enisled 'Kingdom of Arda' (which we should probably call the Solar System).'

Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed


Anyway, more specific to Sauron:

'The Elves certainly held and taught that fear or 'spirits' may grow of their own life (independently of the body), even as they may be hurt and healed, be diminished and renewed.' (note 11)

Author's note 11 [added marginally]:

'If they do not sink below a certain level. Since no fea can be annihilated, reduced to zero or non-existing, it is no[t] clear what is meant. Thus Sauron was said to have fallen below the point of ever recovering, though he had previously recovered. What is probably meant is that a 'wicked' spirit becomes fixed in a certain desire or ambition, and if it cannot repent then this desire becomes virtually its whole being. But the desire may be wholly beyond the weakness it has fallen to, and it will then be unable to withdraw its attention from the unobtainable desire, even to attend to itself. It will then remain for ever in impotent desire or memory of desire.'

JRRT, Myths Transformed, note 11 to text VII


The mention of Morgoth being thrust into the Timeless Void hails from the Silmarillion of the mid to later 1930s, although the Sauron reference in Valaquenta appears to have arisen in the QS second phase, the later 1950s. I'm not suggesting Tokien would have necessarily abandoned either reference, just noting the dating on each.

Of course it depends upon what one means by destroyed, and although Tarcolan and Grizzwald have already explained what they each meant, the Void also came up, and I thought this note on Sauron was interesting in any case.


We are no longer arguing Elthir, on which can or cannot be destroyed. Only that of which concerns the book or Tolkiens writings.

Argue that which is, not that which is not, or be seduced by ones own thoughts. Understand yea I do, verily. But the excuse of those which remain, sundered as it were, are those for their choosing. Interfere not, unless at your own peril. Yea, verily I speak now unto those who hath yet to understand me.

Yea, verily have I watched and thought, whom ist thou that speaketh before me and repenteth my words.

Doth thee now repenteth, or remain silent?

Wisdom here doeth I seek.
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