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BlueberryMuffins76
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on: March 17, 2015 02:11
Fili and Kili's deaths were one thing I did remember about the book, which I've read probably a good three times or more. But their deaths never get any easier! I found them even harder to endure in the film, I think because it finally put faces to the names and gave them more personality. Plus Fili's care for Kili is totally precious!
Honestly, I forgot Thorin died between I think the first and second times I read the book and was rather shocked at first! I really wish PJ had shown that Thorin technically died after the battle was won with his friends gathered around him rather than just having Bilbo there. To me that took away some of the significance of his death, but part of that may be because I was laughing at Bilbo being freaked out by his extensive wounds; one really shouldn't be laughing during a death scene! Tolkien certainly didn't mean for it to be funny and I didn't feel that way while reading the book. Then again, I am not overly fond of Thorin in either film or book, so that's probably the majority of my problem right there. But don't get me wrong: I don't think Thorin's death is funny but rather just how Bilbo reacts.
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PSK
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on: March 17, 2015 03:28
Elfeawen Lomiondil said:

Actually, I can identify all the dwarves with little trouble. But I'll get back to that.

PSK, your experience was so different from mine that I feel genuinely sorry for you, though reading your criticisms hurt my eyes. Have you read the book recently? Thorin, Balin, Fili, and Kili are the only ones in the book with personality, and Thorin is much more developed than the other three. The way I see it, the other dwarves weren't SUPPOSED to be developed. They are background characters. Few are the movies that have 13+ fully rounded characters.


For your first point, wow, I certainly couldn't do that, although I have not any visual guides or other wizardry.

I take your point, about the dwarves, but I still feel that in the BotFA, they were dull (with the notable exceptions of Thorin and Dwalin, who I thought were awesome).

I also feel sorry for myself, I wish I had a better experience, although I don't see how that is possible. My criticisms hurt your eyes? I hope I haven't offended you by blaspheming about PJ. I am also sorry that my knowledge of the dwarves is so inferior. I have read the book recently and I remember it was good. The film was bad.

Leaving out the dwarves, would you still not agree that the film (particularly the battle) was below par? I think it gives off a general air of how not to do it (Dickens reference), and frankly if you don't see that it could have been so much better, then maybe the damage done to your eyes by my criticisms is actually repair.
"Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains." ~ The Doom of Mandos
Elfeawen Lomiondil
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on: March 18, 2015 11:08
I also feel sorry for myself, I wish I had a better experience, although I don't see how that is possible.


I wish I could help you, although I agree with your assessment of how likely that is. Some things really improve with time, but if you feel there is nothing to improve on, then time will probably not help you.

My criticisms hurt your eyes? I hope I haven't offended you by blaspheming about PJ.

Well, its not pleasant to read, but I don't consider art criticism blasphemy. I consider PJ to be a talented individual, but I don't agree with 100% of what he's done. I make the choice to let that go, though, because I feel the good points far outweigh the bad. I really appreciate it when fans can share their opinions in a mature way. If no one could do that, then I would not be interested in what others have to say.

Leaving out the dwarves, would you still not agree that the film (particularly the battle) was below par?


No. I admit my feelings were muddled at first (because it was so tragic, not because of the quality), but after I thought it over for a month and watched it again, my appreciation strengthened. I think it was a well made work of art. It could be improved on, theoretically anything could. This will always be a matter of individual opinion. I felt the editing could have been a bit more sophisticated, but the ending lacked resolution and this is the one thing I feel important enough to call a flaw. Like many others, I am hoping for a more polished work in the EE. As for the battle, it was fine by me. I didn't have strong feelings about it, but I was slightly impressed that it looked different from the other battles. See, I don't like big battles for their own sake, but epic battles are a part of fantasy, and sometimes they are, well, epic. This battle was exciting in the book, mostly for the consequences for the people involved, not for how it was described. I got the same impression from the film version. (Yes, the book is great! )

The following are some tips I share with people going to see Five Armies for the first time. They may not help you, PSK, but I hope they help someone, maybe Findemaxam.

1. Don't look at it as part 3 of a trilogy. The Hobbit is one story, not a trilogy, and Battles on its own is not enjoyable if you treat it like a stand alone work.

2. The beginning is as abrupt as the ending of part 2, so . .

3. If possible, watch the first 2 before seeing it. There are so many subtle things I only appreciated after I did this when I ..

4. Watched it again. I understood many things better, the overall effect was better.

5. It has an unique feel. But FOTR felt different from ROTK, right?

6. Unlike all other ME movies,it is static. No questing. So it feels and looks different.

7. The end is rather open, and will not give you much emotional resolution. So read the end in the Hobbit to mitigate all the sadness.

8. Stay for the credits. Billy Boyd's The Last Goodbye is beautiful and almost makes up for the brief ending!

[Edited on 03/21/2015 by Elfeawen Lomiondil]
"There shall be war between the Children of Iluvatar and the Ainu Melko. What if we perish in our quest? The dark halls of Vê be little worse than this bright prison" ~ Fëanor
PSK
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on: March 21, 2015 02:22
I apologize if I have come across as immature. I, like you, hate to be over critical of anything LOTR. I really wanted a magical end to the ME journey, hence I was upset when (in my view) I didn't get one. Maybe I am being over emotional, but just to set it clear, I don't want to offend anyone.

About the last point Elfeawen, I understand you shouldn't view the film as a film by itself. However, the battle was just ridiculously short. I expected another wave of attack, and beorn to do some stuff. When it finished I was like: is that it? Too short, too much Tauriel, too focused on specific characters (who aren't even that major in the book).
"Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains." ~ The Doom of Mandos
findemaxam48
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on: March 26, 2015 08:51
Bilbo found his pocket handkercheif.

I just got done watching BotFA. And crying. My sister and I sat up in my room for two and a half hours to watch it in its entiurety, and when it was over, we just kind of flopped down on my bed and cried.

Smaugs death was just as I envisioned it, as was the demise of the Master. Alfrid was his old despicable self. Gandalf was true to Gandalf. Except for a few things- the fight against the Nine, Legolas, Tauriel- I found that this movie stuck to the book the most.

That is the last I say about comparing film to text. I thought Richard did an amazing job of portraying Thorin, gold sickness and all. LukeEvans did a phenomanal job in his enacting of Bard.

The battle in itself was kind of...I don't know. Brief. I pictured all five armies going at each other in an open field, not in the style of a militia in the ruins of Dale. But that was just me. Dain was just how I imagined him, loud and proud.

Thranduil... Can I say that I loved his attitude? And even though his choice may have been flawed, his dedication to seeing the battle through instead of taking off? I loved the look he gave Dain when Dain came down from the moutains and threatened to give those "B......s a good licking." Sort of like, "Come at me, bro!"

Bilbo...best performance by Freeman by far. I broke down when he started to cry over Thorin's death. He seemed to sort of capture Bilbo's realizations about the world around him perfectly.

The death of Azog and his brief swim under an iceberg...never saw that coming.

Parts Where I Thought, "Um, OK..."

-Radagast flying on the back of an Eagle.
-Beorn falling off the eagle...and then doing nothing.
-Tauriel fighting off every Orc that comes near her, and then succombing to Bolg.
-When Thorin has a vision of himself drowning in gold.
-The worms?

Highlights:

-Smaug's death
-The relationship between Bard, Thranduil, and Gandalf as they started negotiations
-Bain, Sigrid, and Tilda's commitment to each other as siblings
-The women of Laketowns' desire to fight along with the men
-The Elves battle lines and moves.
-The ending and segue into Fellowship
-Thranduil's aide to the people of Laketown
-The flee from Laketown.

Overall, five out of five. Still some things where I was left with a little question mark over my head, but overall better than the other two, in my humble opinion.
We were one in the same, running like moths to the flame. You'd hang on every word I'd say, but now they only ricochet.
BlueberryMuffins76
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on: March 26, 2015 12:08
I'm glad you finally got to see it, Maxie! I certainly think Thranduil was at his finest here!
You reminded me about the dragon sickness and Thorin's weird hallucinations. I guess it was just to show how much the idea of owning all the treasure & not having that one little piece, the Arkenstone, took over his thoughts.
The worms confused me too. If someone else can explain, I sure would appreciate it! I personally could have done without that, since to me it almost added yet another army into what should have been only five armies, but that's just me.
Sometimes I get the feeling PJ was trying to compete with Harry Potter, but having not seen any of those I can only judge from the commercials for those films; could the worms be related to that somehow?
"Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." John 15:13, NIV I'm a fanfiction writer and appreciate reviews! Check me out at https://www.fanfiction.net/u/6434280/BlueberryMuffins76
Elfeawen Lomiondil
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on: March 26, 2015 05:43
Haha, the worms! This was probably the only time I laughed out loud during the movie, because I predicted they would be in it. I had just started rereading The Hobbit, and close to the beginning it says something about wereworms in the wastes, and I was like whaaat . . . then I thought, they're going to be in the movie!

Glad you you liked it, Maxie. I also thought Freeman's performance was great. The first time I watched it, I was disturbed by people laughing at the wrong times. But the second time only muffled sobs (mine among them) broke the silence.

Thanks PSK. We agree on something! The movie was simply too short. And Thorin was amazing. I notice that this is one point almost everyone can agree on. Thorin was tying with a couple other dwarves before Battles, but now I believe he is my favorite dwarf.
"There shall be war between the Children of Iluvatar and the Ainu Melko. What if we perish in our quest? The dark halls of Vê be little worse than this bright prison" ~ Fëanor
Lord_Sauron
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on: March 26, 2015 07:02
Maxie I recalled that in the Hobbit book Bilbo mentions Were worms. I ended up finding this quote from the book online.

"Tell me what you want done, and I will try it, if I have to walk from here to the East of East and fight the wild Were-worms in the Last Desert."

Perhaps the worms in the movie is PJ version of the Were worms
findemaxam48
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on: March 27, 2015 10:34
Ah, so that is where it came from. Now that you mentioned it, guys, I totally see where that was in the book. And the Orcs come running out of the holes that the worms made in the mountains.

My sister and I are watching the movie again as I type this... New record for most times a film has been viewed while being rented in a 24 hour period: four.
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tarcolan
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on: March 28, 2015 06:03
Dragons are called worms in Northern Europe. Here's an article about The Lambton Worm.

Curiously the origin of the term 'were' means 'man', as in weregild or werewolf.
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findemaxam48
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on: March 28, 2015 07:34
Hm...maybe a creative take on it? Other than that, I have no idea why PJ put them in.
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Elfeawen Lomiondil
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on: March 28, 2015 06:04
Interesting how people’s reactions to this movie seem to be really diverse, with some saying its the least of the lot, and others saying its easily the best of the Hobbits. I finally figured out how to give my opinion in one sentence: While the quality was less consistent than in the preceding 5 except for the acting, Armies was a worthy addition to Middle Earth on screen. But it is No.1 on Amazon right now, so I think its safe to say a lot of people liked it!

The Battle of The Battle of the Five Armies
-Tauriel fighting off every Orc that comes near her, and then succombing to Bolg.

If Thranduil had not cut her bow in half, she could have shot Bolg in the face, yes?

The battle in itself was kind of...I don't know. Brief. I pictured all five armies going at each other in an open field, not in the style of a militia in the ruins of Dale. But that was just me.


It was less epic than Helmsdeep or Pellenor, and if it had been as epic, I probably would have given it some praise for that. But I was slightly surprised in a pleasant way that they took a different route. I think they wanted the battle to be different. Tolkien said it; “though . . . many deeds of renown were done, the matter would scarcely have concerned later history, or earned more than a note in the long annals of the Third Age, but for an “accident” by the way. (meaning the ring) FOTR, pg.32. Which isn’t to say I don’t care about it a great deal!
Like some of you, I think, I was led to expect something massive. When I heard from a friend where DOS ended, I said “So the last one is going to be one, epic, cataclysmic, apocalyptic, climactic battle”, and I did not mean that in a good way. I was afraid that massive amounts of action would substitute for plot and the characters would disappear in the mayhem. So I thought it was sort of a good thing that the battle had a more “open” texture and stayed focused on the characters.

-The Elves battle lines and moves.

Loved it!
One thing I loved was the duels! ME movies have been short on duels, which I always missed. And Elrond and Galadriel in action! That was pure fan wish fulfillment. I whisper-screamed “That’s Elrond!” both times I saw it. And the heroic Rivendell theme almost killed me off, in a good way.



[Edited on 04/04/2015 by Elfeawen Lomiondil]
"There shall be war between the Children of Iluvatar and the Ainu Melko. What if we perish in our quest? The dark halls of Vê be little worse than this bright prison" ~ Fëanor
findemaxam48
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on: March 29, 2015 03:07
Tauriel did fight off about six or seven Orcs right before Bolg, though, with her knives. She ran through the tunnels, killed them, yelled, "Kili!" and then had her bought with Bolg. Maybe if she had struggled with the other Orcs before Bolg, I could see the plausibility of having trouble with Bolg.

Also,another thing...Legolas ran out of arrows! I started laughing! He never runs out in LOTR, and then there he is, empty quivered!
We were one in the same, running like moths to the flame. You'd hang on every word I'd say, but now they only ricochet.
Estelanor Of The Shire
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on: March 29, 2015 07:58
findemaxam48 said:Tauriel did fight off about six or seven Orcs right before Bolg, though, with her knives. She ran through the tunnels, killed them, yelled, "Kili!" and then had her bought with Bolg. Maybe if she had struggled with the other Orcs before Bolg, I could see the plausibility of having trouble with Bolg.

Also,another thing...Legolas ran out of arrows! I started laughing! He never runs out in LOTR, and then there he is, empty quivered!


Remember that Bolg and Azog are not your typical orcs. As Gandalf says, "These are Gundabad orcs!" Bolg and Azog are better trained and armed, and stronger and bigger than the average Orc. In LOTR, the orcs are not much more skilled than the average StarWars Stormtrooper, but Azog and Bolg are clearly a cut above them. (Although that doesn't mean I like those despicable orcs). Because Bolg is not your average Orc, I don't find it at all strange that Tauriel had a hard time fighting him.
In Desolation and Battle, Legolas also has trouble fighting Bolg, even though he usually slices through orcs with no problem.
When Legolas ran out of arrows I was horrified, because if he had not, he could have shot Azog and saved Thorin (Delusional fan dream, I know, but I still wish Thorin had lived!) However, it is completely epic when Legolas throws Orcrist to Thorin.
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Elfeawen Lomiondil
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on: March 29, 2015 05:47
I also do not find it odd that Tauriel had trouble with Bolg when Legolas did too. Aragorn was known to take on about a hundred orcs alone, but he had trouble with Lurtz. Some Orcs/Uruks are just superior quality. Good thing Azog's line was stamped out.
"There shall be war between the Children of Iluvatar and the Ainu Melko. What if we perish in our quest? The dark halls of Vê be little worse than this bright prison" ~ Fëanor
Eryniell
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on: March 31, 2015 03:18
The battle, although completely different from the book, was (pardon my French) BADASS. Fili and Kili's death was exactly how I remembered it... I couldn't stop crying! The orcs were much stronger than in the LotR trilogy, which I really liked. Like everyone else said, Legolas usually cut orcs down without breaking a sweat!
However, I was a bit disappointed with Thorins death scene. Don't get my wrong, I was crying my eyes out afterwards, but it seemed a little bit unrealistic. Azog was throwing around a massive, iron, mace-like weapon that clearly weighed more than 4 of Thorin, and was still not able to break through the ice. After he finally cracked it and fell through, he was able to stab a thin sword through the same thick ice... Even underwater, where all your movements are slower and weighed down? And then proceeded to jump through it? Just seemed a bit unrealistic.
But, as an elf kind of girl, I absolutely LOST it when I watched the Elves battle movements and lines. I completely freaked out.
Other than that, I thought the battle was very well done and absolutely epic.

[Edited on 03/31/2015 by Eryniell]
Eryniell
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on: March 31, 2015 03:28
Elfeawen Lomiondil
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on: April 06, 2015 01:11
as an elf kind of girl, I absolutely LOST it when I watched the Elves battle movements and lines. I completely freaked out.

My friend, I could watch Elves move all day.
"There shall be war between the Children of Iluvatar and the Ainu Melko. What if we perish in our quest? The dark halls of Vê be little worse than this bright prison" ~ Fëanor
Gandolorin
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on: April 11, 2015 06:51
ARRRGGGHHH! Seems the release of the BOFA DVD here in Germany is set for 23 April!

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Estelanor Of The Shire
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on: April 11, 2015 06:55
Gandalorin, that is TERRIBLE!!! You have my heartfelt condolences
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BlueberryMuffins76
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on: April 11, 2015 08:22
That is horrible! If it makes you feel better, I still haven't been able to rewatch it! Even though it's been out a couple of weeks or so now! But like I said before, I'm waiting until the EE to own it (ok, I still don't own the other two either, but am playing to get AuJ soon!).
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findemaxam48
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on: April 11, 2015 09:08
Ah! Gando, that is awful! My movie was purchased for me. I hope that you will be able to view it soon. Maybe on YouTube?
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Estelanor Of The Shire
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on: April 11, 2015 09:17
I saw it in the theaters twice, but I'm also waiting for the EE to buy it. If our library gets BOFA before the EE comes out, I may watch it again. I haven't seen the EE of DOS yet, but I do own the EE of AUJ (And love it very much
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findemaxam48
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on: April 11, 2015 09:27
I am planning on, when my job is more secure, to buy one EE a month until I own all six, as I own none of them. My sister will then get her own copies.

One thing I did notice though...they went from tons of behind the scenes facts and videos in AUJ to nearly none in BotFA...no production videos or anything to speak of.I was a little disappointed about that, buy maybe the EE will have more to offer us in that respect.

[Edited on 04/11/2015 by findemaxam48]
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BlueberryMuffins76
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on: April 11, 2015 10:47
Maxie, so far I own 0 EE's!
PJ probably just wants to keep us in suspense! I saw on Pinterest a list of scenes that the BotFA EE should include, one of which was the funeral. But I'm not sure how accurate that source was. Nothing was mentioned about the Elvenqueen, or even Thranduil! I think I did see something about having more Beorn & Radagast. Everyone needs more Radagast!
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findemaxam48
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on: April 13, 2015 08:10
Especially after their brief cameos...how on Earth did they show up at just the right time?
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Elfeawen Lomiondil
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on: April 13, 2015 01:01

One thing I did notice though...they went from tons of behind the scenes facts and videos in AUJ to nearly none in BotFA...no production videos or anything to speak of.I was a little disappointed about that, buy maybe the EE will have more to offer us in that respect.
]


The rental additions don't have any behind the scenes features, the special editions have a bunch of video blogs, and the extended editions have 9 hours. That's right, my friend, NINE HOURS. You will just have to be patient again.

The AUJ features are absolutely great, but they do get pretty silly on the last disc when they start running out of things to say.
"There shall be war between the Children of Iluvatar and the Ainu Melko. What if we perish in our quest? The dark halls of Vê be little worse than this bright prison" ~ Fëanor
findemaxam48
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on: April 14, 2015 08:09
Yeah, the special edition for BotFA had no video blogs...very sad about that. But, I shall wait for the EE.
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Gandolorin
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on: May 13, 2015 02:50
Well, I finally made it. Bought BoFA, meaning part three of PJ's fanfic based on the Hobbit, last Saturday.
Watched it Saturday late afternoon - and watched it again Saturday evening.
Looking at it that way, I can say that PJ has made a(n?) highly enjoyable fanfic.
Weta's work was stunning as usual (maybe we have been spoiled by them by now and take their efforts for granted - we shouldn't). And to be clear, I mean all the Wetas involved - as well as the artisans to whom they passed on special work.
I am going to give the three fanfics a re-watch very soon. And I am definitely now waiting for the EE - and hoping it is like that of DoS, like AuP would be a disappointment.
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PSK
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on: May 13, 2015 10:56
I agree there, Weta is awesome and I think credit to PJ for managing to put together a team for LOTR and retain it for the Hobbit.
I like how you call them fan fics. If you look that them that way they seem better.

Also, after I have had time to calm down, I have changed my opinion. The films were not too bad, and I think that actually some parts were very good. Battle was too short yes, but overall I now think that it could have been much worse.
I'm gonna get all three together and then I will re-watch and hopefully maybe enjoy it some more. Anyone know when the EE comes out?
"Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains." ~ The Doom of Mandos
tarcolan
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on: May 13, 2015 11:16
BOFA EE won't be released until October or November. I hope there's more Beorn in it.
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PSK
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on: May 14, 2015 04:13
Definitely, and it shouldn't be too hard as we saw a full 10 seconds of him...

Oh that's a long time. Oh well.
"Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains." ~ The Doom of Mandos
BlueberryMuffins76
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on: May 14, 2015 05:45
I believe I saw somewhere that there is supposed to be more Beorn in the EE. The eagles really didn't do that much either.
Yes, it's too long to wait! Does anyone know of a good website to check for the date the EE will be released?
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flyingarrow
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on: May 16, 2015 04:51
ok, so did anyone see in TBOTFA, as the people gather up on the banks of the lake, right after Smaug is killed, that there is a dog waling around with two arrows sticking out of its body??
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flyingarrow
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on: May 16, 2015 04:53
*Sorry, I mean walking, not waling.
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