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Urngol_rumil
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: December 10, 2003 03:18
Okay, I know I am a little bit late... but I think I have an exceptable idea. (too bad no one will see it!)
There goes!
I agree with most of the assumptions that have been struck down; Tom is no vala, maia, istari, elf, nor is he Eru.
I also agree that Tom was one of Tolkien's earlier characters, and that he doesn't exactly fit into the third age of ME.
I believe that Tom Bombadil should be classified as a fay or Tavari of sorts.

About them [valar] fared a great host who are the sprites of trees and woods, of dale and forest and mountain-side, or those that sing amid the grass at morning and chant among the standing corn at eve. These are the Nermir and the Tavari, Nandini and Orossi, brownies, fays, pixies, leprawns, and what else are they not called, yet they must not be confused with the Eldar, for they were born before the world and are older than the oldest...[they] laugh at it much, for had they not somewhat to do with its making, so that it is for most part play for them...
The Book of Lost Tales One, Coming of the Valar and the Building of Valinor


Goldberry is most likely a "spirit" like Tom, and her connection as River-daughter is meerly a reference to her as a being of water or an Oaritsi.
Always glad to help!



[Edited on 11/12/2003 by Urngol_rumil]
502Dan
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: January 11, 2004 12:37
Upon reading the forum so far, it seems there is enough logical arguement for me to agree that Tom is no Valar or regular Maia. There is no suggestion in the forum that Tom couldn't be a fay or Tavari, as was said at the top of this page so I currently agree with this.

An important part in positioning Tom is what he is IN RELATION to other characters. The ring has no hold on Tom, yet if Frodo had failed, and Sauron had the power to conquer middle earth, Tom may too fall. The question I wish to put forward is: Was Tom more or less powerful than Sauron ? - At the moment I think he was less powerful since although mighty, he simply did not actively desire power of his own.

Any comments >?
atalante_star
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: January 11, 2004 12:48
What a good thoughtful post

I would reckon that Tom would be stronger than Sauron without the Ring. Sauron with the Ring ... no, I don't think Tom could stand easily against the full force of that - but he would put up a jolly good fight. And maybe, just maybe, he could actually win.

But would Tom wish to actively participate in a war against Sauron? Even if it came down to a personal level? Even if it came down to saving Goldberry?
Tcherepin
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: February 18, 2004 12:17
My opinion...

********************************************
Like all people, Tom Bombadil is several things all at the same time.

At one level he's just Tom Bombadil of the very early poem that Tolkien wrote...just a silly nonsense poem about an imaginary character based on a childs doll. So yes, that's "all" he is in one sense.

In the other sense, I think Tom is much larger.

I think Tom Bombadil is Illuvatar, and is Tolkien and is Beren, all in one. In fact, those things are all the same thing. Am I nuts, here? I don’t think so, and here’s why. Let’s start with Tom = Illuvatar.

Tom is older than all. When the firstborn awoke, Tom was there. Well, so that makes either Tom the first thing within Arda (Arda = “the world”) or something from before Arda that entered it. Perhaps tom was created by Illuvatar when the world was created, but I don’t think so.

Think about Tom…what does he DO? He sings, right? I mean, basically what Tom does is prance around the woods, singing. OK, now go to your Silmarillion and read about how Illuvatar brought Arda….the world…into being. He SANG it into being.

The first mention of Melkor actually, the first thing Melkor did after he was created by Illuvatar was to try to sing a song in opposition to Illuvatar. So singing is the essential Tolkien analogy for creation and even anti-creation.. Tom sings. Tom creates. Tom is First and Eldest. What’s the natural conclusion? Tom is Illuvatar, and Eru is the secret fire, the force of Creation. There’s not a lot of difference between Eru and Illuvatar.

Now, this sounds whacky, so let’s think about this a little further. OK, is there any logical reason why JRR Tolkien would possibly put his God, Illuvatar, who he specifically says did NOT enter Arda, but instead allowed the Valar to enter Arda…..why he would put Tom/Illuvatar into Arda? Is there any other way me might know who Tom Bombadil is?

Absolutely. Think about JRR Tolkien. Who was he, where did he work? Who were his friends and influences?

JRR Tolkien was an Oxford professor and an author with a huge interest in both languages and mythology. Tolkien was a part of a group of writers and thinkers that called themselves “The Inklings”. These people gathered together for thirty-five years to share stories with each other, talk over issues and generally just be friends. Charles Williams was one of the Inklings. If you’ve ever read Charles Williams novels (I don’t recommend them, they’re totally impenetrable. I’ve tried reading two of them, and failed) you’ll soon come to see that Williams worlds combine the spiritual/mystic world with the real world. Our dead walk hand-in-hand with us, according the Charles Williams. The world of the spirit is only one step away from us. Gods world and our world are one world, shadows of one another. So the notion of having God in the World is one that JRR Tolkien would have been very familiar with through his friendship with Charles Williams.

Also one of JRR Tolkien’s friends, perhaps his best friend was CS Lewis. CS Lewis wrote the Narnia Books. You know “The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe” and all those books. He also wrote a space/religious/fantasy trilogy called the Perelandra series. They are very well written and a lovely read, I recommend them highly.

Now, CS Lewis is also perhaps the foremost Christian writer of the 20th century. I’m completely serious about that. About a millimeter beneath the surface of the Narnia books lies good solid Christian doctrine. Read CS Lewis’s “The Screwtape Letters” or “Suprised by Christianity” if you want a taste of his Christian writings. They’re absolutely fabulous books. OK, so JRR Tolkien would have been extremely familiar with the basic underpinnings of the Christian God from CS Lewis, if not from his regular upbringing.

Does the Christian God exist “in the World”? Yes, through his “son” three-in-one, Christ and the Holy Spirit. Illuvatar is God, Eru is the Holy Spirit and Tom Bombadil is Christ…all different, but all one and the same??

Am I crazy? But wait, one last thing. …..What is the ONE thing that anybody says, ever, in any book directly about Bombadil? In fact, what did JRR Tolkien himself state about Tom Bombadil? What is the ONE fact we know about Tom Bombadil, in JRR Tolkien’s own words?

“He just is”. JRR Tolkien said that, and those exact words “He just is” appears in the LOTR as well.

Remember, JRR Tolkien is an Oxford professor who’s best friend is the foremost Christian writer and scholar of the 20th century. Now, what is the Hebrew “name” for God?

Yahweh

And what does “Yahweh” “mean” in English?

It means “I am”. That’s it…that’s all it means… “I am”

Tom “just is”

Tom Bombadil is Illuvatar.
Tcherepin
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: February 18, 2004 12:39
Part 2:

**********************************************

Tom Bombadil is Illuvatar, but there’s more than that. JRR Tolkien is Beren. Whacky as thatt sounds, this one is really pretty easy.

Have you ever seen a picture of JRR Tolkien’s headstone on his grave? Does it say “JRR Tolkien” RIP? No.

It says “Beren”.

How about JRR Tolkien’s wife, does it say his wife’s name? No, Can you guess what it says, without reading forward? If you know your Silmarillion, you know the answer….I mean, just in case you thought that JRR Tolkiens headstone was a fluke…..

It says “Luthien”.

JRR Tolkien loved the Beren and Luthien story the very most of all, and saw himself as Beren. I can see why, the story of Beren and Luthien is one heck of a good story. It’s a truly great love story and stands with any classical love story ever written or developed through oral tradition.. But now, let’s stop a moment and think about it. Aside from all the great AND utterly stupid stuff that Beren did, there are a couple of lines in there that say something truly amazing. JRR Tolkien says that Beren died and “sought life again”.

Eh? What? Beren DIED, and then lived again?

Look if that’s not a Christ analogy, then I don’t know what is. Remember that CS Lewis is JRR Tolkien’s best friend. Beren dies, and lives again. JRR Tolkien dies and lives again. Gang….Beren is Illuvatar, because dying and living again, exactly what CS Lewis’s Aslan the Lion does, is the essential godlike thing to do.

There are a number of non-christian nods and spirits that die and come to life again. JRR Tolkien was an Oxford professor with extreme expertise in mythology and literature, He was aware of this connection. There’s a Druid spirit that dies and lives again. How about the Norse gods, is there one that dies and lives again? Sure. There are Mesopotamian gods that die and come back to life. Dying and coming back to life = God.

God is Illuvatar, Beren = God and Beren = JRR Tolkien.

And we already figured out that Tom Bombadil = Illuvatar. They’re all one and the same thing. JRR Tolkien wrote himself an dhis life into The LOTR. The creator entered his creation through Tom Bombadil, the childs doll on his childrens bedside.

One last thing. What is the basic thing that Illuvatar does? He wields Eru, the Secret Fire of Creation, that is Gandalf’s Master….. Gandalf directly serves Illuvatar, not the Elven Ring, not the Valar, Illuvatar/Eru directly. What does Illuvatar DO?

He creates.

What did JRR Tolkien DO? He created.

*******************************************

There's more actually, to back this up, but this is the nuts and bolts of it. Again this is just myhumble opinion, but perhaps it might give you something to think about if you are interested...*LOL*.
Tcherepin
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: February 18, 2004 02:17
.Aaaaaaaannnnnd one last little bit.

Remember that JRR Tolkien wrote the sotries compiled in the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales to put togthere a mythology that he felt his native country, Englad, was lacking. He was an amazing authority on mythology.

Now, people being people, there are many common threads in mythologies from around the world. tokien know about these common themes. One of the common themes is that the Earth, the world (Arda) *IS* God (or Goddess, depending on the culture). The Nores god that dies and comes to life again is a pretty lcear analogy for the world, where winter comes and the world dies, and then "spring comes and th eworld is born again. the Norse Hell is Ragnarok, which is not hot, but rather eternally frozen over. It's consistant with that cutlrues view of a dying world.

"The world" = God.

Tolkien is more than up to the task of combining christian analogies with pagan ones in his mythology. That's one of the truly great things about his mythology, that it rings so true. Tolkien knew what he was doing when he wrote this stuff, AND he's a fabulous writer. It's a fantastic combination.

Well, Tom Bombadil is an earth spirit if there ever was one. He's totally impervious to, practically unaware of the powers of the Maia. They're irrelevant to him. He puts on the ring, and his reaction is "so what"? And "that's a pretty thing" and then he moves on to important stuff like singing.....meaning creating, and messing around with old man willow..

Earth spirit.

But in every single case, Earth Spirit = God, or direct connection to god. Over and over in mythology, earth = God.

Put it all together, and I honestly think Tom Bombadil is Illuvatar.

OK end of rant, now!!!!!! *LOL*
LadyEowyn_Of_Rohan
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: April 04, 2004 07:54
Okay , now I'm going to argue with some of the earlier posts, just because arguing is fun. Also, the more we argue, the quicker we'll figure out who Tom is.

The first Vala to enter ME was Melkor/Morgorth. So that leaves out Vala. Tom was in ME before the Dark Lord came from the Outside.

Well, the complete quote is: "But you are young and I am old. Eldest, that's what I am. Mark my words, my friends: Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and teh graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless--before the Dark Lord came from outside."
It doesn't actually say that Tom was in Middle-earth before Melkor came, just that Tom knew what it was like before Melkor came to ME, so he could have been one of the Valar.
Tom is not likely to be Maia. The Maia mentioned in LotR that are in Middle-earth are affected/effected by the Ring. (Gandalf, Saruman, Sauron)
What about the Balrog? S/he wasn't affected by the ring. All Maia are different, and Tom could have been more powerful. Tolkien refers to Tom as someone who "have, as it were taken 'a vow of poverty', renounced control, and take your delight in things for themselves without reference to yourself, watching, observing, and to some extent knowing, then the question of the rights and wrongs of power and control might become utterly meaningless to you, and the means of power quite valueless." Anyway, we already knew he was odd.
Is it possible that there is somthing in-between Valar and Maia?
I like that idea. Tom seemed more powerful than the Maia I've seen in LOTR and TSil. No, just the LOTR ones... I think he could be around as powerful as Osse, Uinen, or Melian. I don't think there were in-between earthbound Ainur, but perhaps Tom could be something like... Aulë and Yavanna's kid's kid, with Tom's non-Valar parent a Maia, if that made any sense. I also like the (previously posted somewhere) idea that Goldberry is Osse and Uinen's daughter.
Wait, that doesn't work. Tom couldn't be as old as Melkor if he was Aulë and Yavanna's offspring. Also, his Elvish name means "oldest and fatherless". Tom could just be a powerful Maia, as has been said before.

Reading an essay that was linked to a page or two back, I saw thiese quote from the Books of Lost Tales: "the sprites of trees and woods, of dale and forest and mountain-side, or those that sing amid the grass at morning and chant among the standing corn at eve. These are... brownies, fays, pixies, leprawns, and what else are they not called, for their number is very great... they were born before the world and are older than its oldest, and are not of it, but laugh at it much, for had they not somewhat to do with its making, so that it is for the most part a play for them..." "These were fays (C); no one knows whence they came: they are not of the Valar nor of Melko, but it is thought that they came from the outer void and primeval dark when the world was first fashioned."
This sounds a lot like Tom Bombadil. Of course, these were later changed to Maiar, but isn't Tom held over from a pre-LOTR character, one of his children's dolls? Since a letter (#144) says, ""As a story, I think it is good that there should be a lot of things unexplained (especially if an explanation actually exists)... And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally)." This seems to suggest that Tom has an explanation that may be very difficult but possible to find. The Silmarillion wasn't published until after Tolkien's death, so he can't expect us to rely on that to find out what Tom is. However, the answer being found in Lost Tales seems likely.

Hope I made some sort of sense somewhere.
Maedhros
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: April 04, 2004 03:56
Isildur[/b]sHeir -- I do not think that Tom is Eru becasue Tolkien wrote:

"The incarnation of God is an infinintly greater thing that anything I would dare to write" - [b]Letter 181

"The One does not physically inhabit any part of Ea." - Letter 211

So in essence; no, Tom isn't Eru.

Sorry to everyone, I have not yet read the entire thread, just this last post, so my post my post might be reiterating others' thoughts right now.

However, again IsildursHeir, Treebeard is the oldest of ration creatures, but I do not think Tom would be considered a ration creature, therefore Gandalf's statement to Treebeard would be correct.
Star_of_Haldir
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: April 06, 2004 04:57
Tcherepin, I like a lot of your ideas. I think that w/ Tolkien being exposed to Christian beliefs like that, he would have naturally included a lot of that in his stories, so I can really see where you're coming from here.

I think, though, that Tom was meant to be a bit of a mystery + I also like it that way too He's fun to wonder about. One of my fav characters in the books too.

I think someone in this thread a few pages back also mentioned something about him being the author or the reader.. That's a good idea too, b/c I think that in a way everything a good author writes will in some way or another have a bit of the author in it, even Tom! So it could probably be argued in some way or another that each character represents something about Tolkien. It's also appealing to me to think of him as representation of the reader.. kinda on the outside watching everything that is happening + knowing that there's really nothing that he can do [I agree w/ whoever said that they believe he has power while in his territory, but for whatever reason he doesn't ever leave his territory... maybe he just realises that it's not in his hands but the hands of the hobbit + choses to stay out of it]. So I think that's an interesting concept too. Seems to me he's an important character not b/c he plays a big role in the stories, but b/c he was important to Tolkien + his children + for that reason he just wanted to include him in Middle Earth

+ he's just a lovable + fun character! ^_^
Morgoth
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: April 07, 2004 04:11
**This IS who old tommy boy is!!**

The most likely person who Tom is, is Aule the Smith of Valinor, now some might think it far fetched that he is one of the Vala but bare with me and i will explain my theories:

1.) Aule the Smith and Tom share interests - they both love the earth - Aule created it, Tom tends the Old Forest. This further shown to be true as Yavanna is the spouse of Aule and she also loves the earth, trees, streams... Goldberry .... a river nyph (spelling?) ... get the idea!

2.) In is mentioned that Aule did not covet his works but gave them freely to the peoples of Ea, in the same respect both Tom and Goldberry mention that the trees, plants, animals etc in the old forest are under the lordship of Tom however they are their ownself. A ideal Aule holds dear to himself.

3.) At the end of Return of the King Gandalf mentions that he is going to have a long chat with Tom who he describes as a stone who has gathered much moss (something to that effect) whereas Gandalf describes himself as a rolling stone. In comparing themselves Gandalf (who is Olorin the Maiar) and Tom it must be concluded that they are the same level of being or Tom is greater.

4.) Tom mentions he was there before the first trees, light, before Morgoth came from outside, this must imply he himself is one of the Vala as there was nothing on Ea before them.

5.) When Tom looks at the Ring of Power he is sarcastic about its skill in making. Now as Sauron was orginally (before he became evil) the Maiar servant of Aule this must mean that no-one can have better skill in making than Sauron unless it be the Smith of the Earth himself - Aule. For this reason also the ring has no effect on Tom when he puts it one and he can manipulate it (when he makes it vanish).

6.) Tom's ability to hear the pleas of the Hobbits when they are trapped in the Barrows, his power over old man willow also show a "higher" power over nature, just as Aule had in the beginning of the Silmarillion.

Alll of these points point to the fact that Tom is indeed on of the Vala and is Aule the Smith. Hope that cleared something up

[Edited on 7/4/2004 by Morgoth]
Maedhros
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: April 08, 2004 04:56
Morgoth -- I have a few issues with your reasoning.

Tom says that he was there before the "Dark Lord came from the outside", and you imply that it is Melko, and I agree. Well, Melko was the first Vala to enter Ea, so therefore Tom, if he was Aule, was not the first one into Ea.

Tom will fall if Sauron gets the One Ring back, and I sure don't think that Sauron would be able to overcome his former master and a Vala even with the One Ring. Heck, all the hosts of Mordor could not take Lorien unless Sauron himself came there, and that was because of Galadriel with a Ring of Power, so I certianly doubt that even with the Ring and all his orcs Sauron would be able to overcome Aule.
Maedhros
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: April 09, 2004 08:24
Morgoth -- Yes, I do indeed say that Sauron would in not way be able to overcome Aule - but Sauron, should he be able to retrieve the Ring, would be able to overcome Tom. Gildor (I think, might be Glorfindal), says it in the Council of Elrond, so Tom cannot be Aule, for Sauron would overcome Tom.
Morgoth
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: April 10, 2004 04:12
Good points however is it not also said in the books that the Vala relinquish some of their powers when they take on forms which are visable to the Children of Illuvatar (said in one of the Histories of MiddleEarth Books - cant remember which one exactly) anyway bearing that in mind tom could still be Aule only in a lesser form and therefore no-one would know it was him and therefore "think" Sauron could overcome Tom however he wouldnt be able to if Tom revealed his true form.

God i love to speculate wildly
miracas
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: April 29, 2004 08:47
While I am certain of Tolkien's continued hesitance to ever fully reveal the true nature of Tom Bombadil, I have developed me own theory. Since Bombadil is clearly an anthropomorphic representation of the Old Forest, he is therefore an extension of the Ainulindale. This holds true to the fact that he would not be affected by the ring, since Middle-earth was not under the dominion of Sauron. However, even an incarnate entity such as Bombadil would have eventually fallen at the onslaught of Mordor will
Nikkili
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: May 11, 2004 07:13
I believe that Tolkien is Tom Bombadil. (or vice-versa, whatever, LOL)

Writers who create complex societies often cast themselves in a cameo role. They just can't resist putting themselves into their beloved worlds. After all, look at Peter Jackson, who couldn't resist playing a drunk in the rainy streets of Bree!

Sometimes the choice is a very private one, part of a personal fantasy that is jealously guarded from public knowledge. Others can't resist calling attention to the fact that a particular character represents themselves, by making that character a casual observer, who stands clear of the actual action.

Tom Bombadil is so unique, so alive, and yet uninvolved, that I think it's a tipoff. Tom Bombadil is Tolkien.

It is also true that Tolkien chose to have the names of two Middle-Earth characters, Beren and Lúthien, on his and his wife's tombstones.

I believe this is more a secret wish to also be be a character who actively and nobly participated in the history of Middle-Earth. While Tom is fun, Beren is who Tolkien would choose, if he were a role-player.

So Tolkien is entering his own stories from two angles, first, as a casual observer, and secondly, by the inscription on his tombstone. Leave it to Tolkien to have a complex history of his own, LOL!

Since Tolkien created Middle-Earth, it also might be implied, that he is Eru, Ilúvatar ... the One, who created all things from the Darkness, although the implication is not of his own doing. It simply is.

~Nikkili~



[Edited on 11/5/2004 by Nikkili]

[Edited on 11/5/2004 by Nikkili]

[Edited on 11/5/2004 by Nikkili]
atalante_star
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: July 30, 2004 04:44
We have an article on the barrow-wights here
arvegil
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: August 03, 2004 08:16
I do not know if this has been mentioned before, but: has anyone considered the possibility that Bombadil is an extension of Yavanna's will as manifested in the Ainulindale? We already have proof that, unlike Aule, Yavanna seems to have the capacity to create sentient life, as exhibited by the creation of the Ents.

Although, personally, the "Maia gone native" theory appeals to me.
atalante_star
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: August 03, 2004 09:05
Yavanna actually can't create sentient life ... Ilúvatar created the Ents on her plea. But that doesn't stop your idea of Bombadil being sung into the Music by her.
fasa09
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: August 14, 2004 09:42
If Tom isn't a race of his own, he would almost have to be a Vala. There doesn't seem to be any other explanation.

However, I was thinking about this the other day. Could Tom be virtue? Symbolically or literally, whichever way you want to look at it. I think Tolkien was very clever in deciding where to put Tom, and I also think he left Tom's race a mystery because he jolly well wanted to. Tom showed up in the book after the hobbits had encountered the Nazgul, who have no virtue in them whatsoever. After meeting them, Frodo and the boys must have thought "Geez, what hope do we have? They're bigger than us and they're more powerful than us. We will never survive." And they wouldn't have, if not for Tom. Tom, IMO, seems to be the epitomy of virtue and he shows up at a point in the book when hope (a virtue) is deprately needed. He's not affected by things that mortals deem 'unimaginable horrors'. When you think about it, Tolkien had a pattern going. I think he did that on purpose, too. I'd be willing to bet that Tolkien was looking for the right character to fit in to it, and the character he found was one that he'd written children's stories about in the past. Tom's character seems to be centered around hope, and in essense he IS hope. He doesn't really do much else, now does he?
That's just a couple days' worth of speculation...
hawksy
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: September 14, 2004 07:31
I've read a great deal about Tom (he's my favourite character in the book!) and along with most people I've been intrigued about who he is.

I did initially go along with the idea that he was a Maiar, having pretty much immediately disagreed with the suggestions that he was Eru, Valar or Tolkien himself.

The theory that I agree with most is that Tom is a kind of embodiment of nature itself, the green man theory if you like. The reason he doesn't turn invisible when wearing the ring is for the same reason why a tree would not become invisible if you were to place the ring on it's branches.

Tom is outside the bounds or laws of the book. And he exists for that reason. Tolkien wanted to show that there was always something 'other' in any world.
KathrynBaggins
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: September 15, 2004 03:38
Well, I know that my thoughts are probably very infantile compared to all you deep thinkers, but have any of you ever read [/i]Roverandom[i]? Well, it was written a long time before [/i]Lord of the Rings[i], but it wasn't published until after Tolkien's death. I think that Tom might have kind of evolved from the wizard Artaxerxes. I mean, they are both very different, Tom being merry and Artaxerxes being grumpy, but they are definitely connected... When it is introducing the character Artaxerxes, it said that he had a blue feather in his cap, just like Tom Bombadil.
Tcherepin
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: January 13, 2005 01:07
Regarding my thoughts that Tom = Beren....

I don't mean that literally. I don't mean that Beren has come back to life as Tom Bombadil, and therefore Goldberry is Luthien, OK?.

What I mean is that Edith Tolkien is sort of the model on which Luthien is based, and the "dancing" element comes from an incident where Edith danced for JRR. If Edith Tolkien is Luthien, then JRR is Beren. Note that their gravestones are marked Beren and Luthien, so this isn't my idea at all..

This is not a literal thing, OK? JRR Tolkien was well enough grounded in reality to know that he wasn't his fictional character, magically brought to life. However, he can see part of his role...his life, his love for Edith as played out in the love story of Beren and Luthien.

If "the creator" and "creating" of living things is the thing that Illuvatar does, then the author, who brings his imagination to life in the pages he writes, is in a way, God.....Illuvatar. It's not a stretch to think this. Most Christians would say that all people reflect the truth that we are God's children in one way that other beings do not...and that is in that we can create things. True, not living things (yet!!!!) but still things that exist and have meaning apart from our selves. That's a Godlike thing to do. Animals don't do that.

And so stretching all of this to ridiculous lengths, and weaving it all together.

God = Illuvatar = Beren.

Finally, JRR Tolkien is very Christian. Who is the character in the Christian story who dies and comes back to life? Christ, Jesus. Review your basic Christianity 101...Jesus Christ IS God IS the Holy Spirit...three in one. Yet at the same time those three things are three separate entities. It's the mystery of the Trinity.

Illuvatar is God, who's signature thing to do is create...exactly what the author does.
Tom Bombadil is first and fatherless
Beren dies and is reborn

This is all very loosey-goosey, eh? It's kind of philosophical meanderings through connections. I don't mean that Tom Bombadil, the subject of silly poems based on a doll that JRR's children had, is literally the soul of Beren, as per stories in the Silmarillion, reincarnated in Middle Earth.

OK, 'nuff ranting for one day!
Tcherepin
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: January 13, 2005 01:12
The other thing that I love about Tom Bombadil is that to me....

...and this is just a personal thing for me...

Tom Bombadil is a message that says

"you know, it doesn't ALL have to make sense, ALL of the time.

Just LIVE."

And I rather like that.
LadyEowyn_Of_Rohan
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: January 13, 2005 04:56
Interesting ideas about Tom and Beren...
Tom Bombadil is a message that says

"you know, it doesn't ALL have to make sense, ALL of the time.

Just LIVE."

And I rather like that.
Me too... it reminds me of something I read in The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Universe today: We (humans) think we're smarther than dolphins because we build cities and computers while they muck around and have fun all day; they think they're smarter for exactly the same reasons. ... While some say that he would fit better in The Hobbit, I think Tom is an important element in that everyone else is really serious about the Ring and all, while he adds some balance by not being too concerned over it.
Aethelstan
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: February 27, 2005 07:14
I'm new here, so I'm not sure if this was said before, but here's my opinion on Bombadil: he's a nature spirit of some kind, or a weak Maia. I base my theory on the fact that he has a specific dominion, that being the old forest. Plus, Gandalf mentioned his ability (or inability) to protect the Ring at the Council of Elrond
ataralas
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: March 06, 2005 05:51
My opinion...

********************************************
Like all people, Tom Bombadil is several things all at the same time.

. Now, what is the Hebrew ?name? for God?
Yahweh
And what does ?Yahweh? ?mean? in English?
It means ?I am?. That?s it?that?s all it means? ?I am?
Tom ?just is?
Tom Bombadil is Illuvatar.

I'm very sorry, but that isn't really correct, Yahweh or Jehovah can rather be translated as I will prove to be, or I will prove to become. As in a promise for the future. However, this idea, though incorrect, is used quite often, so perhaps your filosofie about Tom is correct.
A specialy since the son of God (of whom Tolkien thought he is also God since he was Catholic), walked the earth. So perhaps Tom indeed represents Illuvator in some way.
Sam_Gamgee
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: March 23, 2005 08:41
Tom Bombadil is really a bit of genius in my opinion, what better way to keep people interested in your books than to create a source for controversy. If Tolkien wanted us to know exactly who Bombadil is, he would have made it clearer. But that is the beauty of his form of symbolism, it is open to each person's interpretation.

As for my theory, I feel that he is a personification, an attempt to touch on that which is otherwise impalpable, a concept. Maybe he is not a creature at all, which would support the notion that Treebeard was the first. I kinda like to think he is the imbodiment of belief, think about it, this jovial soul residing in a forest full of myth and stories that people tell. If you have ever seen the NeverEnding Story, it's like the idea of Fantasia.

Another theory i have is that he is the representation of the song of the forest. Is'nt true that part of ME was made from songs sang by the Valar? Aule's wife, Yavanna, i believe was the main one i think that sang to create the first trees. So could it be possible that Tom and Goldberry are entities left by the Valar, or even lesser embodiments of the Valar themselves? Perhaps Goldberry is of Nienna who watered the ground with her tears, and Tom is of Yavanna whose song created the trees. I think i am beginning to like this theory over my first. Those are my theories, but you don't have to take my word for it.
Glamdring
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: March 31, 2005 10:22
My opinion is a little bit outside of tolkiens world, but here it is: The thing is, who sayd Illvutar created everything? Yes, he was there first, but maybe not alone. Simply put, I think Illvutar is kind of like (not representing, I know Tolkien hated allegory)the Chritian god, and Bombadil is kind of like the Pagean Mother Earth. Bombadil looked after the trees and such, while Goldberrytended to the streams she loved. Together, they represent the whole being that is Mother Earth. Now, this may sound crazy, but I have some evidence. Tolkien was a devout Catholic, but he also loed nature, and he said that "trees were the messengers of nature". I think that he knew about the conflict between the ideas of the catholic God versus the Pagean Mother Earth, and in his imaginary world, he put them together, and made them live co-operatively. Maybe its just cause I read the Da Vinci Code, but that whole catholic vs. Pagean thing seems like it could have been an issue which Tolkien was on both sides of, and he decided to use his books as an outlet to show that the two sies could co-exist.
Kadaveri
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: April 09, 2005 01:21
Ah, the great Tolkienian mystery question who nobody knows the answer to. My personal theory is that Tom Bombadil is a nature spirit of the forest. Whatever the answer is he's an exception, he isn't any of the races that Tolkien listed. He definitely isn't Iluvatar.

"The incarnation of God is an infinintly greater thing that anything I would dare to write" (Letter 181)

"The One does not physically inhabit any part of Ea." (Letter 211)

"There is no 'embodiment' of the Creator anywhere in this story or mythology (Letter 181)

For once Tolkien is very clear about this, Eru and Tom are not to be confused. Tom isn't one of the Ainur, the Ainur are split into two catagories, Valar and Maiar. There are no 'in-betweens.' He could be a spirit, a fay or one of those other mysterious things Tolkien never wrote much about. But he certainly isn't an Ainu. Tom never 'entered' the world from Ea, he has always been in Arda.

"Melkor too was there from the first, and he meddled in all that was done, turning it if he might to his own desires and purposes" (The Silmarillion, Ainulindale)

Melkor was the first Ainu to enter Arda, but Tom Bombadil was already in Arda when Melkor entered.

"He [Tom] knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless--before the Dark Lord came from Outside" (LOTR, In the House of Tom Bombadil).

"Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn" (LOTR, In the House of Tom Bombadil)

Tom has always been in Middle-earth, since Tom was there before Melkor Tom can't be an Ainu.

I think common sense will tell us that Tom is not an Elf, Man, Dwarf, Orc, Ent, Troll, Dragon, and he certainly isn't the Witchking of Angmar. (Note: That theory is a popular Tolkien joke, it isn't to be taken seriously. Most of it seems to be based upon the fact that Tom and the Witchking are never seen together in the same place at the same time. Therefore something suspicious must be going on.)

So what is Tom, basically 'He is.' He's just always been there. Whatever he is, the only one who truly knows the answer is Tolkien. And he wasn't telling anyone.

"And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally)." (Letter 144)

Tom Bombadil is an enigma, just there to confuse the heck out of us. And that's the way Tolkien liked it.
shadowofarda
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: April 17, 2005 04:13
Kind of like God, doncha think? Wasn't Tolkien devoutly Catholic?

Tom Bombadil is one they can confide in, but cannot entirely entrust the fate of the Ring to, why? Not because they can't trust him--they've trusted him the knowledge of the Ring, after all.

But because he could not--would not?--do anything if the Ring lay in his palm. There's a quote from another book (much different I know) Interview with the Vampire:

"Do you believe Satan created this world?....then if God created this world, then he must have created Satan as well, making the Children of Satan the Children of God


(mind you, this isn't the exact quote---that's off the top of my head)

I completely agree. PERHAPS, Tom Bombadil, much like God, is not affected because he is "God" in a sense (shush, I'm little and cute, indulge my theory for a minute, it's coming from the top of my head right now). God CAN be trusted in confidence. I don't know anyone who is inclined to prayer and wonders if the said God(s) will leak his or her secrets.

But can God DO anything about the mortal problems of the world?

My insanely religious mother once told me: "To the Gods, there are bigger things that this world happening."

Mayhaps that is not so wrong? I am not devoutly religious myself, and this theory is FAR from developed, in fact, I'm coming up with it as I type...

But perhaps this is really the inspiration behind it? Arguing who Tom Bombadil is, is like arguing who the Gods are--or in the Christian point of view, God--The Gods are simply there. They are.

Tom is Tom from the beginning to the end. As the Lord Krishna once said in the Scriptures, "I am without beginning, middle, and end."* Much like Tom?

Tom is nothing because nothing is the only substance that can lack a beginning, middle, and end. But he clearly exists, for everyone in the Fellowship of the Ring did not imagine him, and of course Tolkien wrote him.

So Tom is. Since he's been here before all, and is the very essence of the earth itself (earth spirit as many believe), he must be everything, or at least close. So he exists, but does not exist.

But that's not the answer Tolkien meant. As we ALL have concluded, there IS no answer. Like Tolkien's God, Tom Bombadil cannot be defined by mortal words. Nor was he meant to.

Tom is. Period, Space, Enter Key. Forever and ever.

* (I believe that was him. >.< Bad girl, I am)


[Edited on 18/4/2005 by shadowofarda]
aran_an_gondor
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: May 10, 2005 12:42
I know more about Glorfindel. He was slain by a Balrog in the Silm but he got reincarnated in the same body as the one we know in LotR: FotR and he's an elf.

Maybe Tolkien just wanted us, readers, to reflect of the origins of this character. He is more than just human because he could see Frodo even when the ring was on his finger so he might be a spirit because at the begining of the Silmarillion it says that the Ainur that created went down to Arda to start building it, the Arratar, so maybe Tom was a spirit who came afterward. Also, Tolkien never mentioned the exact number of Ainur and Maiar so he might be one of them. What I think is that Eru let Tom the permission to live on Arda or something like that.
TinaHalfelven
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: May 15, 2005 01:53
I think Tom Bombadil MUST be a Maia because if he was there before the Elves he is not one of the Children of Iluvatar in the same sense as the Elves or Men are. He's probably one of the lesser Maia because the other Maia we know of are:
-Sauron (he's one of, if not the only, most poweful Maia of Middle Earth who we meet in Lord of the Rings.)
- Saruman (the Istari have limitations on their true power, so if the restrictions were lifted the Istari could have each individually taken on Sauron and beat him- or at least come to a draw. Saruman was the most powerful of the Istari until he was corrupted.)
- Gandalf (same as Saruman, as powerful as the original Saruman after being "killed" by the Balrog of Moria)
- Radagast (a lesser of the Istari)
- Balrog of Moria (this character is kind of odd because he obviously has great power, and probably had at one time the capacity to even rival Sauron but must have fallen from his former greatness by the time we meet him)

And Tom seems to have a power as great as, if not greater than, the Balrog, if not even some of the Istari. His power seems to just be hidden, and I bet when pressed he could fight pretty well. Another interesting thing is that he sensed the Ring and yet was not at all tempted by it; the only other character who we meet who does this is Faramir, but he does not sense it. So Tom must have great power or wisdom, but it seems to just be a different style than that of some of the "greater" characters we meet.

[Edited on 15/5/2005 by TinaHalfelven]
PotbellyHairyfoot
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: May 15, 2005 03:53
That's a nice theory except that the ring had no effect on him, or on his awareness when Frodo put it on in his presence. I think that Tom may have been part of the "Music" and became manifest when the world was createdas a creature able to care for his own little corner of the world. He seems more similar to the Ents than to any creature/being from the undying lands.
Any power Tom has seems to only affect the creatures that abide in his own little pocket of the world, creatures like'Old Man Willow" and the Barrow-wight. He has little concern for the happenings outside of his area, and isn't even all that worried about the evil things that exist in his own backyard, as they have no effect on him.
TinaHalfelven
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: May 16, 2005 12:43
True.... It's an interesting question. That's another good theory about him being merely part of the Music.... Although he seems to have a veiled power, to me. I also wonder- what is Goldberry?
Nindalf07
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: May 19, 2005 10:13
To me she always seemed a Maia, and it makes sense because if Tom's a Maia, wouldn't she be one as well? I don't have a copy of Fellowship handy, but it does seem to suggest a naturalness to her appearance only inherent in Elves and the Ainur, who clothed themselves in the likeness of the Firstborn. Also, her amazing voice would suggest that she is either Elvish or Maia, because the textual evidence suggests that, for the most part, Elves and Ainur had the best voices i.e. Luthien and Daeron.
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