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Elainiwen
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: December 29, 2008 02:27
I found this comment on YouTube:

Yeah, but he reveals true Alchemy to the hobbits (historical line of Numenor), which means that he has the secret to transmutation of Soul (Frodo's dream), which parallels in tech stuff like metals and rocks. Which would definitely make him Aule (or Aulez, in the Valarin tongue)


He was explaining Aulë's, as if Bombadil's "alchemy" a lot.

And I replied so long that I though I'd better post it here for real discussion:

But Aulë is considered like a smith, not like an alchemist. But also he has an ability to create life (dwarf race). He's interested in trees more as material to help in forging than living beings, but he remembers that his wife Yavanna is the one who does care them as a life form, and does not (over)use them because he has understanding for her.

And Yavanna is not really not a River-Daughter, but more like the Mother Earth or Middle-Earth. She's not River-Woman's Daughter, but the daughter of the M-E god Eru himself.

So I don't think he's Aulë, especially when it's written that Ulmo is the only vala to keep connection to M-E.

But I do find Aulë's and Yavanna's relationship interesting. They are the couple of the earth and they're different and yet the same. Their views are not always the same and it causes problems sometimes, and yet their love is true and it lasts through the times they disagree. But I don't think their relationship resembles completely Tom Bombadil's and Goldberry's. And Aulë and Yavanna are more serious sort than them.


I think to understand Tom, you should also try to understand Goldberry. And I actually forgot to mention there that he resembles the values of Yavanna more than values of Aulë. So does Goldberry, though her values are more somewhere beetween Yavanna and Ulmo.

I really should have formed my reply better. But I hope you get the picture of my view now.

[Edited on 30/12/2008 by Lorienel]
Ilandir
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: December 30, 2008 09:29
Hopefully, when the December Issue of the Realmer's Digest Magazine, you'll be able to read an article I wrote about Tom Bombadil and Goldberry - there's nothing certain or proven, just my thoughts and ideas about these two characters.

... just thought I'd let you all know about it ...

Thanks
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cirdaneth
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: December 30, 2008 10:32
I shall look forward to that Ilandir.

Here is a repeat of my old post of 18 months ago on this subject.
My feeling about Tom is that he is a personification of the earth's fertility, especially it's rythm; the cycle of the days and seasons. Every word he speaks is in the same meter, even the ones that are not typeset as poetry. Tolkien cunningly breaks the lines up sometimes with 'said Tom' or an action, but the rythm continues unabated.

If Tom represents the rythm of the turning earth and the cycle of the sun, I think Goldberry personifies the water-cycle; evaporation and precipitation. Hence the waterlilies, the shoes like fishes mail, the river from which Tom rescued her, the rain that falls when she sings, and with the breeze that blows the clouds away as the hobbits leave, she is water and air. If Tom is earth and fire then together they represent the circle of elements, a ring more stable and eternal than anything Sauron could produce.
I have deleted the old one (cos I'm a mod and I can do that stuff! "This is the delete button of adamant, and I am it's keeper." )
Elainiwen
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: December 30, 2008 04:35
A quote from the Silmarillion where Eru sends a message to Yavanna through Manwë when Yavanna was worried if Children of Eru are not letting the trees live:

Do then any of the Valar suppose that I did not hear all the Song, even the least sound of the least voice? Behold! When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared. For a time: while the Firstborn are in their power, and while the Secondborn are young.


Besides the ents, who I think what Eru meant by those words, I don't think that the tree shepherds were meant to be ents alone. Tom Bombadil has the same abilities as the ents, except he does'nt appear like them.

Maybe Tom was meant to be a tree shepherd who was more approachable for the Children of Eru, less strange. Maybe he was made to understand their world, and indeed he does know a lot. That's what I guess he might be.

But then again who is Goldberry? But all the same, I like Tom and Goldberry, whoever they might be. Maybe they were written to be a mystery, not sure.

[Edited on 31/12/2008 by Lorienel]
Calenhil
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: December 31, 2008 09:45
That is very interesting. I think that Tom Bombadil is a very interesting character also, and to me he seems like a person of full harmony, like for example Buddha. He also seems to be appreciateing everything, and when there are things to appreciate, those are what makes you continue instead of just giving up. and that is to me what hope is. As said before in this thread, Tom Bombadil maybe isn't hope itself but a symbol of hope. When it comes to what kind of being he is I think that he "just is", but he also seems to be bound to the old forest, so he might also be some sort of nature spirit. But sence old Tom also appreciate things and take the day as it comes(I don't know if this expression is also used in english), it might be so that he have never wondered what he is. Maybe he was fine with to "just be".
Calenhil
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: December 31, 2008 11:08
I also would like to say that ti me, it seems like Tolkien prefers to judge people for their deeds, and what they do, not what they are. For example Aragorn wants people to judge himself this way. There is also an expression in FOTR when Frodo is speaking with Strider or Aragorn. I will try to translate it as well as I can. (I'm not reading the books in english, but swedish) "Real beauty comes from your deeds, not your apperance" or "Beautiful is the one who acts beautiful.". What I like to say with this is when Frodo asks "- Who is he?" Goldberry answers "- He just is.", and maybe by that she really means "- He just does", wich also strenghtens the idea of him just "taking the day as it comes".
Elainiwen
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: January 01, 2009 08:54
I'd like to add another quote from the book to that Calenhil:

There was a long silence. At last Frodo spoke with hesitation. 'I believed that you were a friend before the letter came,' he said, 'or at least I wished to. You have frightened me several times tonight, but never in the way that servants of the Enemy would, or so I imagine. I think one of his spies would - well, seem fairer and feel fouler, if you understand.'
'I see,' laughed Strider. 'I look foul and feel fair. Is that it? All that is gold does not glitter, not all those who wander are lost.'


A bit off topic this is of course, but can't help it if you enjoy the book a lot.

[Edited on 1/1/2009 by Lorienel]
cirdaneth
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: February 20, 2012 09:21
I'm bumping this thread in response to a PM from member LordSauron who asked about Tom's origins.
tarcolan
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Post RE: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: February 20, 2012 11:18
Never a bad time to bump Bombadil.
Way way back (up) eldaernil said that Forn and Orald make 'for Ronald'. Maybe, but forn is Scandinavian for 'old'. Eldest in fact, but before Yavanna? Before any of the Valar? I'm with cirdaneth, I see him as the spirit of Eä. So what bothers me is that he has retired to a small part of the world.
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Latarina15
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Post Re: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: June 19, 2012 08:09
i have been reading the silmarilion and my little sister started bugging me asking if it mentioned Tom. this has all helped and it was interesting to read. i think the theory that he is Ea makes the most sense especially since he mentiones that he is the oldest and walked the earth before the sun and moon. also there are his rhymes that he sings like "none has even cought him for tom he is the master, his songs are stronger songs and his feet are faster" the whole time u know tom he emphasises that he is "the master" no more. that seemes fitting with what we know about Ea. also the fact that he talkes about his songs, since Ea created arda from the songs of the vala. that doesnt exactly fit with goldberry but it makes more sense then anything else i have read.
Lord_Sauron
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Post Re: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: December 15, 2012 01:35
In my own opinion i think Tom was a maia, who had entered Arda before Melker did. That would mean he was there before evil and isn't effected by it, thats why the ring has no effect on him. The silmarillion says that the number of maia is actually unknown to the elves so Tom being a maia is very possible. If i recall Tom says somewhere that he was here before the Darklord came from the outside, now if thats right he must be talking about Melker because Sauron i think was actually corrupted in Arda however very early.

A thought just came to me could Tom actually be Iluvatar's personal maia, like how all the Vala has their own maia
sunrain
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Post Re: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: December 24, 2012 03:12
To me Bombadil symbolizes "mother nature" and the true essence of that and what is "pure." The ring not effecting him i could be showing just how true his soul is.. Nature does not have the ability to be evil, only to create life..
Cillendor
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Post Re: Who is Tom Bombadil?
on: January 08, 2013 11:20
Perhaps Tom Bombadil and Goldberry are similar in essence to Ungoliant. She is apparently just a creature of darkness, as in she was born from darkness itself and isn't an embodied Ainu.

In that way, maybe Tom Bombadil and Goldberry are the conscious personifications of nature.
PSK
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on: May 13, 2013 11:42
In reply to Lord_Sauron If Tom is a maia, that means he is more pwerful than Sauron because his ring had no power over him. In that case why is he sitting in a forest instead of helping? It also doesn't explain Golberry. Is she his wife or daughter or what?
"Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains." ~ The Doom of Mandos
PSK
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on: May 13, 2013 11:50
Maybe...
wait for it...
maybe.. he is Eru's brother!!!
WOAH! NEXT LEVEL
"Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains." ~ The Doom of Mandos
tarcolan
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on: May 13, 2013 01:51
First can I correct myself. I said above that I thought Tom was the spirit of Eä but that would be everything. I really meant Arda, the world. The idea of Tom as nature spirit, the Green Man, is difficult as he says himself that was here before Yavanna, who created all the plants and animals. Hmmm.

That quote in the Green Dragon thread from letter 144 goes on to say that good must triumph over evil for the likes of Tom to survive, and Elrond says that if Sauron wins then Tom will fall. Yet Tom himself says that he will be last out as he was first in. Whom do we believe? Hmmm.

There's also a curious quote from The Book Of Lost Tales Part 1 at the top of page 2 of this thread. A whole new kettle of fish. Hmmm.
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cirdaneth
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on: January 24, 2015 04:34
*bump
Gandolorin
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on: January 26, 2015 02:45
PSK said:In reply to Lord_Sauron If Tom is a Maia, that means he is more powerful than Sauron because his ring had no power over him...

I was in the camp of TB being a Maia for quite some time, and I haven't entirely left it. Leaving power vis-a-vis Sauron aside as a hypothesis, TB must at least be far more powerful a Maia in respect to the One Ring than either Saruman or Gandalf, who are both tempted by it, with opposite responses to the temptation - assuming the One Ring could tempt TB at all. But TB is utterly immune to it. So he might be a Maia to whom any temptation that Sauron (or even Morgoth) could come up with is so beside his interests that both Black Lords would have their offers shrugged off as irrelevant.
I am puzzled because I read arguments about TB somewhere else (and I believe it was on CoE, but I am not certain) which argued against TB being a Maia, grouping him with undefined "spirits" who entered ME. There's a thought about Ungoliant above, whose "identity" is also never revealed as far as I know, but she became so huge and powerful after all her gluttony in Valinor and afterwards to be able to threaten even Morgoth seriously, who needed the help of his Balrogs to escape her.
TB is an enigma not explained; Ungoliant, I think, too. And there are more. Otherwise, HoME would be closer in size to the Encyclopedia Britannica than to its current size. Even after HoME, there are unexplained vistas. Complain? NO! There would be little room for speculation (and ain't it fun) if everything was "explained."
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