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Trignifty
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Post Tom Bombadil
on: June 13, 2003 11:05
For some he's a favorite and to others he is pointless, but the character of Tom Bombadil is highly complex. But what exactly is he? What do you think? I've read tons of analysis on Tom and it usually boils down to a few things...some believe that Tom Bombadil is another of the Maiar (servants to the Valar, basically the 'keepers of middle earth'), like Gandalf. Others believe that Tom is some sort form of Iluvatar himself (M.E.'s creator). Still others are convinced that he is a power not of the Valar or of Iluvatar, but then what is he? *who* is he? Do you feel he carries any religious symbolism?

Tom's greatest contribution to the hobbits (other than multiple rescues ) is that he gives Frodo confidence. He also makes it even more obvious what Frodo has gotten himself into: Black Riders...elves...Strange little man in a feather hat...what could possibly be next? And they're still in the Shire!

One of the rules of analysing fiction is to take every character of the story (and all dialogue, all objects and all descriptions) and treat them as though they are significant and mean something to the story. What does Tom Bombadil *mean*? Why is he there? I know that Tolkien didn't quite know where he was going with the story yet, but he could have gone back and cut out Tom if he felt there was no point to him at all...so what is it?
Eowyn_Touched-By-Frost
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Post RE: Tom Bombadil
on: June 13, 2003 11:31
I agree... Tom is pointless in my opinion. Tolkein may have included him for a good reason, though all I can think of is maybe another bit of foreshadowing, like Frodo's dream in Crickhollow; I won't get into that because it's from the future.

Symbolism? Who knows... maybe a sort of representation of an angel? Being able to banish evil. But that works only in his own realm, so maybe not.

What he is, hoom hum, it would take an Ent to figure that one out. Tolkein says he was there before the Elves or men. Maybe some being related to Ulmo? I am clueless in this matter.
Sindarin
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Post RE: Tom Bombadil
on: June 13, 2003 05:22
While Tom does not have a significant part in the overall story, I think he's a part of the rich tapestry of ME. For that reason alone I would not consider him pointless.
Who is he? Now THAT I can't answer. He's a mystery, another part of that richness
eowynshue
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Post RE: Tom Bombadil
on: June 14, 2003 12:51
in the words of goldberry, "He is"

tolkien said this about him: "And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally)."
The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, No 144, dated 1954

and that he isnt Iluvatar: "There is no embodiment of the One, of God, who indeed remains remote, outside the World, and only directly accessible to the Valar or Rulers."
The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien No 181, dated 1956

tolkien did find a point to him: "...I kept him in, and as he was, because he represents certain things otherwise left out."
The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, No 153, dated 1954

what makes me wonder the most about tom is that the ring didnt have any effect on him, he just hands it back to frodo after putting it on. wierd.

i think he's kind of a "mother earth" figure
Naurlas
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Post RE: Tom Bombadil
on: June 14, 2003 11:24
Well...Tom Bombadil annoyed the *^% outta me ( never could see what Goldberry saw in him ) anyway, I still think that he was another representation of Tolkien in the book. Tolkien was intensely concerned with encroaching technology in his world and he placed Tom B. in the books as someone who kept his particular corner of ME free from any sort of change or destruction, which Tolkien wanted to do but couldn't. To me, the "one ring" represents something completely opposite of the way of the natural world and would have no influence over something or someone that was formed from ME itself. Like Goldberry said "He is", just as the earth, stars, sun and moon "is".....

But who knows....just my opinion
McDLT
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Post RE: Tom Bombadil
on: June 16, 2003 09:22
I'm a Tom-lover!!! :heart:

I think Tom adds a bit of much-needed whimsy to the stressful events that have happened to Frodo and his friends so far. Much like the bath scene does.

I think Tom is the perfect husband. He serenades Goldberry, brings her flowers, supports her in what she does and he even does dishes. What more could you ask?

I'm in agreement with eowynshue that Tom could not be "God".

I have heard all the theories and have decided that I like this one - Tom is the reader. I've always wanted to be part of a book!

Just some thoughts.
Bosanova
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Post RE: Tom Bombadil
on: June 25, 2003 09:37
I always liked Tom.

Not sure what he is, but I think he did help motivate Frodo.

I read soewhere that Tolkien didn't know where the story was going when he was writing that part of the book. Still, without that part I think something would be missing.
Aowyn
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Post RE: Tom Bombadil
on: June 26, 2003 03:10
I believe, and I could be wrong because I haven't read his bio or letters in a while--that Tom was a character Tolkien had come up with before FoTR to entertain his children with stories about him. Anyone else remember reading this anywhere? I wonder (if this is true) if he just couldn't resist sticking Old Tom into the story.
Of course, it still doesn't answer the question of who (or what) he was
McDLT
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Post RE: Tom Bombadil
on: June 26, 2003 03:54
Tom Bombadil was one of his children's dolls. But I don't remember the whole story. Sorry.
MichaelJD88
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Post RE: Tom Bombadil
on: August 30, 2003 05:49
Mu opinion on Tom is that he is basically "The Green Man" the keeper of the earth, the protector.He was there before all and will be there after all is gone. I dont believe he has any religious purpose in the book.
rhia
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Post RE: Tom Bombadil
on: September 03, 2003 03:08
As I understand it Tolkein did not have any great purpose or hidden meanings refering to Tom. But I'm going to ignore that right now. I believe that Tom Bombadil was a Maiar who came to Middle Earth early on and lived through most of its changes. I think that he represents nature and nature's power similar to Ents and Caradhras.
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Post RE: Tom Bombadil
on: September 17, 2003 05:20
When Frodo put on the Ring he saw Glorfindel as he is on the other side. Anyone who put on the Ring moved mostly to the other side and couldn't be seen anymore.
When Tom put on the ring there was no effect at all. This could indicate that Tom exists fully on "Both sides" which could also be how he is so able to take care of Old Man Willow and the Barrow-Wight. That could also why he could still see Frodo when he put on the Ring- he sees both sides all the time. He's probably been a part of ME ever since it was first formed and he cannot be affected by any powers that came later. He is probably the most powerful person on the entire land but he has chosen a simple life and ignores most of what happens in the world as it has no bearing on his existence . How else could he live directly between the evil trees of The Old Forest and the Evil Wights of the Barrows. The evil came after he did and cannot have an effect on him so he mostly ignores it. He was there when the Witch-king battled with the Arnorians just outside of his little home but as he was not a part of either side he did nothing in those wars.
He is not on any side and has no special purpose and was put on ME for no special mission except for taking care of Himself and Goldberry which is probably just a mission he assigned to himself.
Orofâniel
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Post RE: Tom Bombadil
on: September 23, 2003 04:38
Tom is pointless in my opinion

I disagree. I don't think he was pointless, and I don't think he will be ever. Tolkien added him to the story for a reason I believe.

As someone wrote before:
'Even in a mythical age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally).' (JRR Tolkien, Letter #144)

That was taken from Tolkien's letters. Therefore I think he is one of few/or the only character that isn't 'much explained'. He is supposed to be mysterious! I strongly believe that.

It is also said that Tolkien had created the character of Tom Bombadil before he wrote LOTR. When I read this I thought that Tom Bombadil had to be a person who Tolkien probably made by influence from other people who were close to him. That's my theory anyway.

A religious symbol? I don't know, maybe, maybe not. Could be, though, Tolkien was very religious and maybe Tom is a symbol of that. But Tolkien has said earlier that religion wasn't involved in LOTR, I think so at least.
luftballoon
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Post RE: Tom Bombadil
on: September 28, 2003 11:31
For me, i've always been a Bombadil fan. But i think that Tolkien wanted him to be a mystery, that's what draws some people towards him. And plus, i just find it hard to forget about a character who not only always sings, but never has a bad day. How uplifting would that be?
Orofâniel
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Post RE: Tom Bombadil
on: September 30, 2003 03:03
i've always been a Bombadil fan

Same here!!!!

I agree with you when you say that Tolkien wanted him to be a mystery. I think that as well.....
Celebrian
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Post RE: Tom Bombadil
on: October 09, 2003 08:57
I know this is a late entry and I am far behind in this forum but I want to add my opinions on this topic.

To me, Tom has always been among the most lovable and thought provoking characterers in Middle Earth. I personally always thought of him as one of the Ainur. One of, if not THE first to set foot on the ground. I don't think he joined with the Valar or the Maia but has always been just him, on his own, as Goldberry stated, "He is". He's the Master of himself. His power is in his singing. He "sang" to Old Man Willow. He mesmerized the Hobbits a full day by singing tales to them. In one of my more imaginative moods I've even persuaded myself that he "sang" Goldberry into existence.

It's all just a theory, of course, and an opinion. It's the not [/i]knowing[i] that makes him so fascinating!
Adufen
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Post RE: Tom Bombadil
on: October 09, 2003 12:28
as I said in another thread..I used to think he was eru until I found out tolkien specifically said he wasnt..now I'm leaning towards hes symbolic,or hes a maiar..I'm not sure really,but I guess thats how tolkien wanted it to be.
Alquatari
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Post RE: Tom Bombadil
on: October 16, 2003 06:21
I’m fond of Tom Bombadil. :love:
I suppose, this character is so enigmatical because Tolkien wanted him to be attractive. Some enigmas and mystery always are attractive to people. And evil is always plain and understandable in Tolkien’s books.

I don’t think he was one of Maiar.
I think Tom could resist to the Ring because he was much more close to Nature herself. He just does not care about such things as gold or power. May be he was an embodiment of Spirit of the Forest. I somewhere agree with Michael. But I think he was rather keeper and protector of one particular forest then of the entire earth (consider he couldn’t go too far from his forest, and as Gandalf pointed: “And now he is withdrawn into a little land, within bounds that he has set”). And as that Forest was very Old it could exist before elves and men. So Tom could also exist at that time (at least in a spirit form).

Do not pay attention,
just my speculation.
Elenisil
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Post RE: Tom Bombadil
on: November 06, 2003 01:14
mmm... I´ve said once that I believed Tom was one of the Valar or the Maya and I still believe in it.

Since he´s been around "since before the world was created" he might as well have been there where Arda was sang into existence. Once it cam into being, he chose to live in it as a simple life as one can have, as PBHF described so well.

Plus, if he was a mystery intentionally added to the story, nothing can prevent us from drawing theories about him... and that´s the fun of it!! We can truly believe in what we think without being asked for proof

[Edited on 6/11/2003 by Elenisil]
Figwit
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Post RE: Tom Bombadil
on: November 08, 2003 11:57
I agree Elenisil - I'm pretty sure Tom is a Maia. I don't know why, but maybe he is something like the wizards who were sent to ME afterwards?
atalante_star
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Post RE: Tom Bombadil
on: November 09, 2003 12:46
Tolkien himself even says that Tom is not a Maia

Quotes from "Letters":


"Tom Bombadil, the spirit of the (vanishing) Oxford and Berkshire countryside"


And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally).


"he is then an 'allegory', or an exemplar, a particular embodying of pure (real) natural science: the spirit that desires knowledge of other things, their history and nature, because they are 'other' and wholly independent of the enquiring mind, a spirit coeval with the rational mind, and entirely unconcerned with 'doing' anything with the knowledge."
Figwit
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Post RE: Tom Bombadil
on: November 09, 2003 12:57
gosh atalante, that last quote is pure philosophy! anyway, he doesn't say explicitely that he isn't a Maia in these quotes - or am I missing something?

and on a sidenote, how in Illúvatar's name do you get these quotes so fast?
atalante_star
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Post RE: Tom Bombadil
on: November 09, 2003 01:09
he he. Because we've had exactly the same discussion in the Book Forum, and those quotes about Bombadil are very well known.

The point being, he can't be a Maia as he is totally unconcerned about the doings of the world around him. That's totally against Maiar purpose
Figwit
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Post RE: Tom Bombadil
on: November 09, 2003 01:13
Well, maybe, but isn't Sauron a Maia too? And the Balrogs? It's not because the general conception of Maiar is unlike what we see in Bombadil, that this rules out the possibility? Ha!
atalante_star
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Post RE: Tom Bombadil
on: November 09, 2003 01:24
Well, maybe, but isn't Sauron a Maia too? And the Balrogs? It's not because the general conception of Maiar is unlike what we see in Bombadil, that this rules out the possibility? Ha!


Sauron and his chums the Balrogs are *entirely* interested in the world!!!!

Also, its not the general conception that the Ainur are interested in the world - that is the reason they came down into the world. There's no issue of perception.
Figwit
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Post RE: Tom Bombadil
on: November 09, 2003 01:35
Nah, that wasn't what I meant, atalante. I meant that, if you take the Maia to be one kind of thing, say: interested in the world in a fashion that would make them study it or participate in it, then that doesn't completely exclude a character like Tom Bombadil. For one, he ís interested in the world, but only in his own little version of it. Maybe he is one of those who was singing a different harmony to Illúvatar's song, and chose when Arda was shown to him, to go and live it? Does that make sense?
Nienna-of-the-Valar
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Post RE: Tom Bombadil
on: November 09, 2003 01:49
I really don't like this discussion because it just goes round in circles because really there is no answer, but I definitely don't think that Tom is a Maia.

If Tom were a Maia, the Ring would have had an effect on him. It did not so how could he be a Maia?

We don't know what Tom was, but there are ways to eliminate some possibilities...and I think that being a Maia is one we can eliminate
atalante_star
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Post RE: Tom Bombadil
on: November 09, 2003 01:54
Nah, that wasn't what I meant, atalante. I meant that, if you take the Maia to be one kind of thing, say: interested in the world in a fashion that would make them study it or participate in it, then that doesn't completely exclude a character like Tom Bombadil. For one, he ís interested in the world, but only in his own little version of it. Maybe he is one of those who was singing a different harmony to Illúvatar's song, and chose when Arda was shown to him, to go and live it? Does that make sense?


Not to me, really. The way I see the Music working is that the harmonies created by the Ainur created the world as it is. You can't create a world simply of a few major threads of a tune, but you need a large number of harmonies to interweave. Then the only other tune was that of Melkor's, and I don't think anyone would suggest that Tom was allied to Melkor


"others ... took leave of Iluvatur and descended into it. But this condition Iluvatur made, or it is the necessity of their love, that their power should thenceforward be contained and bounded in the World, to be within it for ever, until it is complete, so that they are its life and it is theirs."


Also, there are a few other things that I don't believe fits in with Tom being a Maia:

1.

Tom ... was Eldest in Time. (Letters)

Also, Glorfindel said that Tom would be the Last as he was First. If anything, those would suggest that he was akin to Iluvatur

Tolkien writes in Letter #144 that


"Ultimately only the victory of the West will allow Bombadil to continue, or even to survive. Nothing would be left for him in the world of Sauron."

For a Maia, the world may not be a happy place under Sauron, or a Maia may choose to go back to the Blessed Realm, under certain conditions. But for nothing to be left for him in the world?
The only thing I can think of that fits that is Tom as a nature spirit.

2.

"He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless--before the Dark Lord came from Outside." In the House of Tom Bombadil

This seems to refers to Melkor, as the dark was never truly fearless once he set his evil in motion. This then might suggest that Bombadil was present in Ea before any of the Ainur arrived.

3.

"if he were given the Ring, he would soon forget it, or most likely throw it away. Such things have no hold on his mind."

Tom is absolutely indifferent to the Ring, an attitude exactly opposite to that of all the other Maiar involved with the Ring in the book: Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf, and conceivably even the Balrog are all strongly drawn to the Ring - which could provide abilities that even a very powerful Ainu could lack. Even the Valar sometimes fell victim to Morgoth's plots.

The power that Tom must possess to overcome the Ring's temptations effortlessly is tremendous.






[Edited on 9/11/2003 by atalante_star]
Eärnil_Captain_Of_Gondor
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Post RE: Tom Bombadil
on: January 05, 2004 07:02

If Tom were a Maia, the Ring would have had an effect on him. It did not so how could he be a Maia?

We don't know what Tom was, but there are ways to eliminate some possibilities...and I think that being a Maia is one we can eliminate


I think he is a Maia , but because he is that old , had the chance to overcome the feeling of might and power .
As he stays true to the spirit of Eru , he can ignore or simplpy doesn't know the seductions of teh Ring .
You must not overrate the Power of the Ring , nor that of Sauron .
the conclusion you can make is that tom had a greater inner might than Sauron .

[Edited on 04/07/1988 by Eärnil_Captain_Of_Gondor]
Figwit
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Post RE: Tom Bombadil
on: January 06, 2004 08:13
I like that line of thinking - however, I always assumed that it was Tom's nature to be without concern for power, not just his age. I guess I always sort of thought that Tom was meant to be like that, in the theme of things already.

Does that make sense?
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Post RE: Tom Bombadil
on: January 07, 2004 03:40
Of course that makes sense !

So Tom had the chance of becoming a Lord of a Ring , but he just wasn't interested in it anyway , and he had the power to resist the evil will of Sauron .
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Post RE: Tom Bombadil
on: February 03, 2004 03:40
I like to think that he is an enigma. Someone that "was". Maybe created with the Ainulindale as some sort of keeper of the world until it was ready to live in. Maybe even 'doomed' to live in the Old Forest (not literally, but the rest of the world was inhabited with Men, some Elves and other creatures and the world changed) until the end of times.

[Edited on 4/2/2004 by Eruantalincë]
tuttleturtle
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Post RE: Tom Bombadil
on: February 08, 2004 01:47
I think Tom Bombadil is more important than some people think. He had powers others don't and uses them. I don't know what or who he is but feel we should but thought into Tom Bombadil. The thing to think about is power. He seems to be different than everyone else.
Krieg
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Post RE: Tom Bombadil
on: February 18, 2004 07:36
I must say that I've never been a fan of Tom. After reading all of the replies , I may end up changing my opinion (if ever slightly). From the standpoint of analyzing the books, as well as the characters, he's a wonderful character to 'dissect', so to speak.

On the other hand, simply from a reader's perspective, I hated Tom. LOTR, to me, has always been, for the most part, a more serious book than some. There are times of laughter, and times of happiness, but throughout most of the book, there is an air of solemnity.

Amidst all of this solemnity and struggle, in comes bouncing Tom, knocking over plates, breaking cups, barrelling about like some bull. His character always annoyed me, at best. He simply didn't "fit" into the story for me. I feel that that's one reason I dislike him so much. Everything in Tolkien's world and story fit together in a huge tapestry, perfectly woven. Tom doesn't seem to fit into this very well.

To me, it's the equivalent of taking one of the Old Norse Sagas, and plopping Mickey Mouse into the story.

It just doesn't seem right.
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Post RE: Tom Bombadil
on: April 17, 2004 07:06
The only thing that gets me about the Bombadil character is that in lotr it is said that the Ents were the oldest inhabitants of middle-earth. Not to mention Treebeard calls Gandalf "young". Therefore Gandalf is a Maia-->Gandalf is younger than Treebeard-->Bombadil is older than Gandalf=Bombadil is NOT a Maia

I think that Bombadil came more from the line of Elves although with MAJOR differences...
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