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vaya
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: July 12, 2004 06:03
Aragorn's third hand is in the scene when he is looking for athelas, and he finds it. He has a torch in his left hand. He then takes hold of the plant in his right hannd, and then, he takes out his knife with his left hand (the one that's supposed to be holding the torch), and cuts the plant, and the torch is still up in the air, casting a pool of light on the plant, so we have assumed that Aragorn has a third hand. He He.


Yay! It wasn't just me! :love:

Either he puts the torch on the ground and sets the forest alight, or it's floating over his head.

Also, last night, I was watching RoTK and I swear that when the Rohirrim are charging someone hands Eomer his spear....while he's charging
Frödö
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: July 14, 2004 03:47
This really bugged me in the movie. There is no way that Shelob's stinger could have penetrated the mithril coat. I think they should have kept it the way it was in the book. There instead of being stung in the stomach Shelob got Frodo in the back of the neck.
AgordanPrincess
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: July 19, 2004 10:14
Where were Pippin's hands tied and then untied?
Annûniel
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: July 19, 2004 01:10
Remember the scene when Pippin rolls over and a horse is about to land on him? Well his hands were untied then. There was a cut to another scene, and when you return to that scene you see Pippin rolling away from the horse's hooves. At this point his hands are tied again and he is shown cutting them off. ;P
The_seventh_Ringbearer
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: September 09, 2004 11:39
I thought this section of the Forum was to discuss the Shelob attack on Frodo, not whether or not Pip's hands were tied.

I think that, given enough force, her stinger might have been able to get through the Mithril, just enough, anyway, to give Frodo that "little dap of poison" to put him out. Remember, she didn't need to give much.

*please don't come after me for my comment*
AgordanPrincess
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: September 10, 2004 04:05
Now your right Ringbearer we got a little off topic. This was to discuss Shelob and Frodo, but we said something about mistakes and we got into that so honest mistake. I mean I still dont know what to think about the scene
L_O_A_F
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: September 10, 2004 04:37
The neckline of his mithril vest. i think.
AgordanPrincess
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: September 11, 2004 04:34
no it didnt look like the stinger was high enough to hit just above the neckline of the mithril
Eldirn
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: September 14, 2004 07:12
1) Spiders don't sting. They bite.

2) It doesn't matter that the shirt was made of mithril. It was ringmail. The flaw of ringmail is that sharply-pointed weapons (like arrowheads, knives, and spider fangs) go through. That's why plate mail was invented.
AgordanPrincess
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: September 14, 2004 09:34
One Eldirn you saw the movie right? I mean Shelob stabs Frodo with her stinger! We all saw it.

two Chainmail or not Mithril is "as hard as dragon scales!" and "could even turn the knives of the ring wraiths" I mean if you saw the first movie you'd know what it could prevent, I spear from not hurting him at all... its things like that. So I mean it makes me wonder.
Nienna-of-the-Valar
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: September 14, 2004 10:07
Indeed, in the book as well, Shelob has a stinger with which she injects some 'poison' into her victims.

Other than that, I have no insight into why the movie was done the way it was. It appears that she gets Frodo in the torso somewhere, which I agree would be difficult with the mithril shirt on, but maybe not impossible. Only the very tip would have to go in, but who knows? I think it might have just been an oversight.
Eldirn
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: September 14, 2004 10:09
I saw the movie, yes. But I'm VERY rachnophobic, so have to admit to hiding my eyes through most of that scene.

If PJ showed a stinger from the rear end of Shelob, he was in error scientifically, and I think, Tolkien-ally as well. I'll have to go back and reread the chapter in Cirith Ungol to be sure.

As far as turning the Morgul-knives, that was not made specific. As I recall from the books, Bilbo, upon presenting it to Frodo, commented, "I fancy it would even turn the knives of the Ringwraiths," or something like that.

A spear is a much more blunt object, and yes, ring or chain mail would turn a spear thrust.

Have you ever seen or worn chain mail? I have. It is very open-work, and a child or a small woman could work a finger completely through, depending on the sizes of the rings. A slim dirk, an arrow, a crossbow bolt, or similar small, stabbing-type weapon WILL go thru, no matter what the stuff is made of. Because it will force the rings apart and go between them, like a wedge.
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: September 14, 2004 01:56
If you go back and look when Frodo gets the mithril in Fellowship of the Ring, it really isnt that long, it looks like it might reach him a little bit above his waist. Shelob's stinger is angled quite a bit and the mithril isnt tight, so the stinger might have gone under the shirt.
AgordanPrincess
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: September 14, 2004 02:08
ok i'm a hopeless aracnaphobic too. But i mean there are so many different sides to this. Like you cant see shelob as a normal spider! SHE'S FREAKIN HUGE! Even if you dont look at her you know that, it has to be that big to take Frodo down. Also the mithril may be chainmail but Mithril is special chainmail. Look at it its not as loosly put togeather as normal chainmail. Its magic almost. The dwarves made it as opposed to men, no offence to men. And the spear "could have skerwered a wild boar." Cant stab a wild boar with a blunt spear! I can see other sides but this post, the one I created has been going on for a while, and I've had so many chances to think about this. So sorry if I seem a little set.
Melmë
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: September 15, 2004 02:17
I agree with ElfWarriorofRivendell. I think that Shelob's stinger might have gone under the mithril coat and that she stabbed Frodo in the stomach near the end of the mithril coat
_Lady_Of_The_Wood_
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: September 15, 2004 05:47
I think that it was merely an oversight on PJ's part, and we're trying to justify it anyway, lol.
Eldirn
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: September 15, 2004 06:44
Cant stab a wild boar with a blunt spear!


True, but it doesn't have to be small of diameter, or long and narrow, either. In fact, a nice, wide spearhead is the best for a large animal like that.

I can see other sides but this post, the one I created has been going on for a while, and I've had so many chances to think about this. So sorry if I seem a little set.


Okay, I get the message.

*bows out* See ya around.
Nienna-of-the-Valar
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: September 15, 2004 07:57
Ummm Eldirn? I have been watching this thread closely and, while you are of course free to leave any thread anytime that you wish, I don't think that AgordanPrincess said anything that should make you feel like you have to.

I think that she (?) simply meant that after this thread being started by her, and having read and considered all of the posts so far, she has become set in her beliefs. So, while she does not agree with you, she can still accept that you have your own point of view.

Please do not ever feel like you _have_ to leave a thread. And if you have any questions, please PM me.
AgordanPrincess
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: September 16, 2004 08:32
I agree with both you Melme, and ElfWarriorofRivendell. That was my very first thought. It went just below the Mithril, not many people may think that though, there are quite a few ways... well some may be right and some are just wrong but no one can judge, this post is just great to run! And yes Nienna-of-the-Valar I am a girl. Thank you for seeing my side as well.
Eldirn
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: September 16, 2004 09:08
I think -- assuming the power stays on; Hurricane Ivan is coming thru my area, we are already having high winds and horizontal rain -- I will have to go back and try to actually watch that scene with Shelob and see how PJ does portray it.

Assuming I can get my face out of my hands, and not tuck my feet in under me (which I actually did in the theatre)... *shiver*

For an arachnophobe, there is no greater nightmare than a spider that big. And to think that they should put one -- more than one -- in that Harry Potter movie, too... *groan*

I know how the spider SHOULD have been portrayed, and I know how Tolkien wrote it (bite in the back of the neck, as someone mentioned), and I thought PJ played it that way too, but as I said, I have yet to manage to keep my eyes open through the whole scene, LOL.

But doesn't the bite on the neck show, later on?
Nienna-of-the-Valar
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: September 16, 2004 11:32
No Eldirn, you should go watch it again and try to peek through your fingers .

In the movie, Shelob has a very big stinger at the end of her body cavity. She even tries to spear Sam with it a few times and it goes into the ground.

Then we see Frodo standing there and we see her abdomen come down and she sticks him somewhere in the front of his body, but we see his face and neck so it's not there. It is feasible that she got him below the mithril shirt, but I think also that maybe if she poked into the shirt, even if just the very tip of her stinger got into his skin, she could have gotten her poison into him.

But really, I think it was a goof on PJ's part.
EruanwenSaeriel
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: September 17, 2004 03:15
I think in the movie, Shelob is above Frodo - remember him looking around - she was straddling the ravine thing he was in. Shelob stung him in the back of the neck above the mithril vest. When he has his shirt off we see the scar from the Weathertop encounter and I think the "other scar" is the movie makers flipping the shot. Or, he has a spot from the troll attack - the spear didn't penetrate the mithril vest, but it still marked him.

Re the comment about the spider web being gone in the tower, not it was still there a bit in the first shot and only disappeared after he started moving around so maybe his moving around made it disappear - or maybe as you say they just made a boo-boo.
EruanwenSaeriel
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: September 17, 2004 03:17
Aragorn's third hand is in the scene when he is looking for athelas, and he finds it. He has a torch in his left hand. He then takes hold of the plant in his right hand, and then, he takes out his knife with his left hand (the one that's supposed to be holding the torch), and cuts the plant, and the torch is still up in the air, casting a pool of light on the plant, so we have assumed that Aragorn has a third hand. He He.


No, I think he put the torch down and the light was coming from the Elf, Arwen - remember she was in her "natural" state when she first came. I remember Aragorn putting the torch on the ground - I thought, Gosh, he's going to start a forest fire."
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: September 17, 2004 04:44
I suppose that makes sense, I never thought of that. I have never seen his arm move like ghe put the torch down. Mayvbe he sticks the end of the torch into the ground. I also think that Shelob may have stuck frodo in the back of the neck with her stinger, but they have scars in the wrong places later, including the Weathertop scar on the wrong side.
Eldirn
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: September 18, 2004 03:38
Okay, I'll bite, if y'all will excuse the pun. Tomorrow I'll put the dvd in and go to that scene and try to peek thru my fingers. But I thought they showed the bite/sting/whatever as being on the other shoulder, up on the neck, opposite the Morgul-knife scar.

And yes, the spear did cause significant bruising and abrasion; I recall the book describing it as driving the rings of the mailshirt through the leather jerkin underneath, into the skin.

Let me also try to explain a little clearer what I meant by "blunt" versus "sharp" earlier. Think of a needle versus an axe. One has a very sharp, tiny point, in an acute angle; the other has a big, broad point. A sharply-angled weapon would have an advantage against ringmail, versus a broadly-pointed weapon, because the small point can go into the openings in the rings. Ringmail will stop a sword, axe, or pikeaxe, or possibly even a spear, but would be far less likely to stop a dirk, arrow, or crossbow bolt. A stinger would most likely fall into the category of sharp-angled weapon.

Ringmail is really cool. I've seen it made, and I've worn it. It isn't light, though. I wore a ringmail cowl and had to be real careful not to lean over, or I fell over!
Legolas_Son_of_Thranduil
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: September 20, 2004 01:26
When Frodo gets stabbed by shelob he does still have the mithril mail on and he gets stabbed above the mail just under the neck where the mail has fallen down a bit which does tend to happen when you have been running and not eating for weeks and when he is taken up to the tower and he is trying to get out of his bonds you can see where he got stabbed as there is a scar there
AgordanPrincess
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: September 20, 2004 03:32
Could he really have gotten stabbed in the neck? From the angle we saw it didnt look like it. We didnt even see the stinger. Did we? Maybe my memory is getting fuzzy, I havent watched in a while.
Nienna-of-the-Valar
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: September 22, 2004 03:58
OK, let's see if I can't help out here using the pics we have in the gallery. Unfortunately they aren't great...I should just cap some myself, but this might help anyway as I have seen the movie numerous times and I watch it all (not through parted fingers).

Shelob sneaks up behind Frodo as he approaches the stairs that continue their climb toward the Tower of Cirith Ungol
Image

Frodo turns back, away from the stairs, because he hears a noise. The stairs are at his back
Image

Unfortunately, we don't have the cap of it, but we see Shelob's abdomen come down behind Frodo as his back is to the stairs. We see the big stinger and it's icky.

Frodo turns back around, to climb up the stairs and immediately gets jabbed with Shelob's stinger.
Image

Sam comes in (you can see Sting there at the left) and sees Shelob, her back to the stairs, as she is rolling Frodo up in her sticky webbing.
Image

OK, so, as I see it, there is no way that Frodo was stung anywhere but the front of his body, and since we can see his face and part of his neck there as he is being stung, I just don't see how he could have been stung in the neck either. In fact, if we had the cap of Shelob's belly, you'd see how far down it appears she is in relation to Frodo.

The scars on Frodo in the tower are, I think, from the Witch-king's Morgul Blade, and from the Cave Troll. I think they forgot all about Shelob's sting *shrugs*, but as I said before, the whole 'Shelob stinging Frodo' thing was a botched job, not like the book and just weird.


[Edited on 9/22/2004 by Nienna-of-the-Valar]
AgordanPrincess
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: September 24, 2004 09:51
Wow i had no idea that these pictures were coming! Very scary because of me and spiders!!!!!!!! Eldirn dont look at this! Or any other Aracnaphibic!!!!!!!!!
fergyness
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: September 24, 2004 02:04
HOLA AGORDANPRINCESS - ok, yea, thats a bad pic of frodo, he look almost like gollum, kinda freaky, lol.....
im kinda new n all so talk 2 me talk 2 me talk 2 me baybay - lol -
yup
luv lotr n harry potter a whole lot
-ferg-
Quickbeame
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: September 25, 2004 03:25
I really think that the stinger went through. Shelob is the last of the Children of Ungiliant, the very frist ancient spider, orginally a maia. the power of the stinger could have penetrated the mithril, if her mothers strength was in her, she could have gotten through it. i mean, nothing can destroy the power of a maia.
Eldirn
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: September 28, 2004 07:30
Ungoliant was a Maia? Where is this noted? I managed to miss it...?
AgordanPrincess
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: October 05, 2004 10:59
What exactly is a Maia? This is something totally new to me! Help here!
Nienna-of-the-Valar
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: October 05, 2004 11:14
This is totally off-topic...but here is a link to our CoE Encyclopedia for the term Maia or the plural, Maiar. We do not know for certain if Ungoliant was of the order of the Maiar, but it was said that she was a 'spirit' that simply took the 'form' of a spider, so you can draw your own conclusions
AgordanPrincess
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: October 11, 2004 12:05
So is Shelob one of the spiders that Bilbo fought? They were strong but I mean somebody could have taken them down.
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