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Nienna-of-the-Valar
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: October 11, 2004 12:29
No, Shelob was a huge spider...those spiders are akin with her, but they are smaller and less dangerous. The spiders in Mirkwood were the spawn of Shelob, whereas Shelob was the spawn of Ungoliant.
SapphireNight
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: November 03, 2004 08:41
When i first started reading this, i thought that one scar on Frodos body was from Weathertop, the other larger one being from Shelob. But thinking this over, it also seems very likely that the wound was the remains from the spear, as suggested before. (However, where it actually hits Frodo is slightly confusing, but it looks to be the same similar place.)
About how the stinger penetrated the mythril, im thinking that it probably didnt. i think it is a bit of a blooper PJ didnt realise, but there is a probable reason. Im not positive, but the mythril shirt doesnt come right up to Frodos neck. It sort of losely comes round from his shoulders. The stinger probably caught the edge, and raised the edge of the shirt when it penetrated. I have the strange belief that the mythril would not stay completly still on his body, it probably moves around, a bit like the feeling of silk, from what i read of its qualitys.
PS, are there any other good blooper threads people know about? I will search, but you guys look like you know best.
AgordanPrincess
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: November 03, 2004 10:35
See thats what i've always thought. I mean i could hardly watch the Shelob scene, I was crying and cutting off the blood flow to my friends hand, and when I thought it was safe... it wasnt. When I look however I thought she might have gotten him just below the edge of the Mithril. Also because of the size of the stinger as it went deeper into frodo's skin it may have pushed the shirt up more. This is what this post is about different points of view.
sraye
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: November 03, 2004 05:33
The stinger looks big in the movie, finest point of the stinger is fine enough to penetrate the mithril shirt. Perhaps the stab wound was very small, but the venom from the wound was potent enough to make Frodo black out in seconds. The reason Frodo reacted the way he did when he got stabbed was probably because of the force of the stinger. Remember when frodo got stabbed by the spear of the troll, he reacted the same way even though the spear did not penetrate the shirt. Maybe, because the force and the finess of the stinger that the stinger managed to penetrate the shirt and deliver the poison to frodo...
elvishmusician
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: November 03, 2004 08:57
About Shelob's sting, first of all in the book it doesn't go through the chain mail, actually from memory (which isn't always so good) I think it was on the back of the neck, so I think its something PJ may have overlooked or changed for some reason.

The other thing is though, Shelob had a lot of venom in her, couldn't it have seeped through? Some spiders venom actually like eats/ melts away at the skin or something like that, so if hers was like that (I really don't know if it was or not this is just a suggestion) it could have seeped through, 'eaten' its way through Frodo's skin and then poisoned him...

Just to point out as well on the movie he got stung on the opposite side to where he was stabbed at Weathertop, the stab from Weathertop if you watch closely in FOTR is on Frodo's left side (if you were Frodo it would be on your left, not the left side of him as you look at the screen). If you pause the movie in the right place, when Sam begins untying him, you see a scar like a line on his left and a scar like a circle shape on the right, the cirlce is Shelob's wound the line is the Witchking's.
AgordanPrincess
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: November 07, 2004 05:38
I had another thought about this. On where the stinger hits Frodo. Well the neck is a very good choice, the venom would be going straight to the jugular vain and therfore contaimingating the entire blood stream, but think about where it hits in the movie.
Weather it goes through the Mithril or not it would be running into some vital organs. That is alos never a good place to get hit. I mean could PJ have been thinking that same thing? *Hears crickets chirpping* Does anyone else think that? Am I just crazy? ....
Dûngaladwen
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: November 07, 2004 06:10
I don't think i've thought about it that deeply, but i actually just finished watching ROTK an was having these same discussions in my head. You would think that PJ would have thought about the stinger and the mithril shirt more carefully... and in the book Shelob does stab him in hte back of the neck.

More bloopers:
~Gandalfs cloak as he is leaving after meeting Denethor - first is clean then the hem is noticably dirty.
~at the end of ROTK when the fellowship is all walking in to Frodo's room, theres a design on the door and when Legolas walks in he is at the middle of it, then Sam walks in and he is the same height... but when the other hobbits walk in they are far below it.
~precious~lil~smeagol~
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: November 09, 2004 04:20
That was funny when Frodo got stabbed!!!

He deserved it to.

Frodo=:evil:

Smeagol= :angel:
Child_of_Lúthien
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: November 10, 2004 09:59
Therefore, I think Frodo was stuck either in the neck or in the groin.


Yikes.

My sister and I have been debating this issue for a while now and we've come up with some solutions but we never even thought one. Pobre Frodo!
frolijahlover
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: December 08, 2004 11:06
i think shelop stuck him in his stomach or at least under the edge of mithril

[Edited on 14/12/2004 by frolijahlover]
hobbitnamedeliza
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: January 30, 2005 07:06
This is a great point! I admit I hadn't thought of it either in the movie or the book...

Tolkien gets off scot-free since he never mentions where Shelob stung Frodo...

I agree with many who have posted here already--PJ definitely has the sting mark on Elijah's right chest. The scar from the Ringwraith's "morgal blade" is near his left armpit.

So...I Guess...it's either one of those things you're NOT supposed to think about a lot according to PJ...

Or....The very tip of Shelob's stinger is small enough to penetrate the Mithril mail...

It's a little like Pippin's hands being tied, then cut apart, then tied again when the Rohirrim horse rears over him...just don't think about it too much!!!
Brethil
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: February 02, 2005 07:21
Yeah, I saw that whilst watching the film but if you look at Frodos stomach and chest while hes in Cirith Ungul then you can see all his scars. You can see the Witch-Kings blade mark and everything. There is a round one but i don't know wether that one is from the Cave Trolls spear but that spear didn't go through because you see ths shirt when he shows the felloship, so I think that is Shelobs stingers scar.
It looks like he was wearing his Mithril shirt because you see Gorbag holding it up so they must have taken it off him because he wasn't carrying a bag.
AgordanPrincess
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: February 27, 2005 11:20
I may not be a guy but the whole getting stabbed there.... would be painful!
foolofatook~
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: February 27, 2005 11:36
*lol* Cool subject!

Ummm....let's see:

1.Well, it sure looks like she stabbed him in the....umm...well....you get it.

and

2.Hmmm...he might have been wearing the Mithril at the time. I mean, you never see him take it off. That's probably the reason why it didn't "hurt" him so much. The "evil stinger" might have gone "through"...but not so much to kill him....physically.

Ilfa
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: May 02, 2005 09:08
The mithril can't be destroyed by Shelob... I think Shelob stings Frodo near his neck, this Mithril is just all over his body from shoulder to his, i think, knee...
Morna_Child_of_Eru
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: May 03, 2005 10:15
Honestly this is something I NEVER thought about. Good eye!

Ok, some thoughts from my tired brain before I head to bed.

Frodo had to still be wearing his Mithril shirt, because in Cirith Ungol the fight between the Orcs starts over it. It makes no sense to have a "bullet-proof vest" and not wear it. As someone pointed out earlier, the way the shots were done prove that Frodo got hit somewhere on the front of his body. The tight shot of Frodo's face doesn't totally rule out him getting stung in the neck, but I think it's unlikely, since the swing of the stinger seemed to be aiming lower. As far as I am aware, nobody pointed out the sound Frodo makes when he gets hit. IMHO, that low-pitch grunt suggusts that he was hit either in the chest or stomach, either of which can knock the wind out of you. If he got it in the leg or (Eru forbid) the groin, he would have screamed, not grunted. Ok, so having said that, it doesn't really make sense for Frodo to get hit in the stomach or chest. Here's why:

The Mithril shirt covers Frodo's body from his neck to his waist. Something that could stop a cave-troll ought to be able to deal with a huge spider stinger. In Cirith Ungol, we see Frodo's entire chest and neck exposed. There is no fresh wound on him.
Therefore, I think this was just an oversight or a "nobody will notice" thing by PJ. However, there is a way to make it all work.

Let's not forget a vital fact: Shelob could not have driven that entire huge stinger into Frodo's torso. Unless it hit Frodo's arm or leg, a stinger that large would penetrate vital organs or major arteries and kill him within minutes, with or without poison. That wouldn't work because Shelob likes her victims alive. The actual part of the stinger that goes into the victim would have to be small enough not to do serious damage, or it would kill him and she wouldn't have her "fresh blood."

If the penetrating part of Shelob's stinger was small enough not to kill on impact, it makes it possible that she got Frodo in the leg or hip or (shudder) groin. That seems to make everything make sense. First, Frodo's lower body was not protected by the Mithril. If she got him in the upper leg or hip, he'd jerk just like he did in the film. The groin isn't inconsitant with a forward jerk either, unless TV has lied to me. Second, his wound would be small and hidden by his pants. The stinger would of course punch a hole in his pants, but the hole would be small and easily overlooked in the darkness and in the drama of Sam rescuing him from the Tower. Third, Frodo's grunt might be explained by a simple suprise reaction. I learned in biology class that the body has two different pathways for transmitting pain signals. The first simply registers that an impact has been made. The other, which kicks in about 2 seconds later, is what actually lets you know how bad you're hurt (think back to the last time you stubbed a toe or slammed your hand in a door and you'll remember that it took a moment to start hurting). If Shelob's poision took effect fast enough, Frodo would be dazed by the time his body figured out that getting stung was really painful. He'd already be too subdued to scream. His eyes look like that's what's happening as he's foaming at the mouth.

It is possible for drugs to work that fast. They put me under by injection when I got my wisdom teeth out. They have you start counting backwards from ten. I didn't make it to six. Also, I'm a grown-up human who was calm at the time. Drugs work faster with lower body-weight and excitement. Since Frodo is half the size of a human being, and his heart was probably racing because he was so scared, Shelob's poision would get to his brain really fast.

Or it could just be because Shelob is descended from a supernatural being. But that still doesn't explain why you can't see a wound on Frodo in Cirith Ungol. All his scars are old. Oh, and if you look close as he's turing to go up the stairs, you can see he's not wearing the Mithril anyway. Oh well.

[Edited on 4/5/2005 by Morna_Child_of_Eru]
Galendir
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: May 04, 2005 10:08
OKAY PEOPLE....

First off, excellent post Morna. Thank you for the medical insights--the delayed pain reaction makes a lot of sense, as does the theory of Frodo's minimal weight and racing pulse enhancing the drug reaction speed.

NOW AS FOR THE STING SITE...

I'm ashamed of you all! Go stick in your Fellowship Ext. DVD, and if you go to the costumes you'll see that the neckline for the mithril is a low, sweeping curve, exposing plenty of the upper chest directly underneath the collarbone. On top of which, the mithril once fit BILBO, who was a good deal more substantial than Frodo even before the poor lad was all wasted away! In addition, the fall Frodo took (when he saw the vision of Galadriel) would've thrown the mithril's weight forward, shifting the front neckline DOWN. You've probably experienced this kind of thing yourself when you go to tug at the bottom of your shirt in back to straighten it.

WE DO NOT SEE THIS AREA AT THE MOMENT FRODO IS STUNG. Shelob EASILY could have got him there with no trouble whatsoever--I never batted an eyelash at this fact and was very surprised to see so many people disagreeing! As for the stinger height argument, if you watch carefully you'll see that the stinger sort of swings in a vertical circular arc, much like a bicycle wheel. Swinging up, the stinger is right on the money to hit Fro on the spot described above.

AND AS FOR THE WOUND...

Nobody ever said Shelob opened up a big bleeding wound! The term is 'stung', NOT 'stabbed'! Think about it--remember your last spider bite? Gross-looking, but bleeding, or scabbing up? No way!! Well, this is just a MONDO HUGE spider bite, which is EXACTLY what we saw on Frodo in Cirith Ungol, and the localized greenish hue around the area perfectly suggests what the poison did to the surrounding flesh. Looks kind of gangrenous.

Was it a departure from the books? Definitely, but it works just fine and was pulled off expertly with NO incongruency problems WHATSOEVER.

So, all we are cleared up now? Good!!

Morna_Child_of_Eru
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: May 04, 2005 11:25
Very nice points Galendir!

I'll have to go watch Cirith Ungol again to see the wound you're talking about. It doesn't make sense for a protective Mithril coat to hand so low on the body, but as you so wisely pointed out, Galendir, it was made for Biblo, who is a lot bigger than Frodo even when Frodo isn't half-starved. It wouldn't fit Frodo quite right.

EDIT: I just watched that again, paying close attention. You can see the hem of the Mithril vest right at the bottom of the area where his shirt opens.

The tight shot of Frodo's face as he's foaming at the mouth isn't when he gets hit. There's a half-second shot right before that which shows the stinger hitting Frodo in the front of his body. To me it looks like it gets him below the edge of the Mithril coat, but it's so fast it's hard to tell. I'm watching my VHS tape now, will have to frame-advance the DVD to tell for sure.

As a side note...somebody said Elijah really got hurt filming that sequence and had to spend some time in the hospital. Anybody know any details? I posted in The Talented Elijah Wood thread, but no answer yet.

[Edited on 5/5/2005 by Morna_Child_of_Eru]
AgordanPrincess
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: May 10, 2005 03:09
Thank you both Morna and Galendir! You really helped me out some. I had always thought she got him in the hip right below where the mithril was, or maybe since her stinger was curled it could have drifted up a bit more and then jabbed him. Now I'm starting to see your points.

Sadly, I too heard about Elijah getting hurt but have nothing so far on how or why. Sorry, but if I find anything, I'll get back to ya.
Morna_Child_of_Eru
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: May 10, 2005 06:41
Found out from another thread that Elijah came down with appendicitis the day they filmed him getting stabbed by Shelob...so he ended up in the hospital on the day Frodo got a serious injury. Interesting coincidence.
AgordanPrincess
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: May 11, 2005 10:28
Wow, thats kinda sad. I feel really bad now. Poor Elijah! Awwww I could not imagine what that would be like. I wonder what he was thinking when he realized the coinsidence, if he did.
Morna_Child_of_Eru
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Post RE: Frodo.... Mithril.... Shelob
on: May 22, 2005 04:41
Ok, gotta admit this one has me scratching my head since somebody brought it up.

I finally went and watched Shelob/Cirith Ungol sequences on freeze-frame, and I think I have the answer.

In Shelob's liar, there's about a half-second shot from behind Frodo where you actually see him get stung. You've got to watch it one frame at a time to see where she hits him, but if you do that, you can see she gets him about two inches below his right shoulder.

Later, in Cirith Ungol, Frodo has a visible mark in the same spot.
At first, I thought that was the cave troll speer scar, but it couldn't be that. I watched the cave troll spear sequence on frame advance, and the spear is actually under Elijah's arm (classic movie trick...on normal play it goes so fast that you can't see exactly where it hits). Let's suspend disbelief and accept that the cave troll did in fact spear his torso. We know the mithril kept his skin from being broken. Frodo's cave troll injury would have been either bad bruising, or at worst, a broken rib. Neither of those leave a scar.

Second, the mark on Frodo in Cirith Ungol does not look like it could have been made by the cave troll spear even if the spear had broken his skin. The mark has two conentric cirlces; a yellow area surrounded by a red ridge, and a larger circle that looks like a bruise. Unless it had a very odd tip, a spear wouldn't leave that kind of mark.

Also, the mark on Frodo's shoulder looks fresh. It's red, yellow and puffy. The cave troll incident was months before Shelob's lair and if it did leave a mark, it would have healed quite a bit by then.

I did a google image search for spider bites and found a few examples of Brown Recluse bites. These look almost exactly like the mark we see on Frodo; a puffy ring surrounded by a larger, buise-like area. I think it's obvious that the makeup people were trying to make it look like a spider bite.

That means Shelob stabbed Frodo in the lower shoulder. So what about his Mithril coat? In the Shelob's lair sequence, right after Frodo gets to his feet after his vision of Galadriel, his shirt is partially open and you can see that the mithril coat is quite low on his chest, leaving Shelob plently of room to stab him in the spot where the mark showed up in Cirith Ungol.

The coat probably never fit Frodo quite right, since it was made for Bilbo, who is quite a bit fatter than his nephew. The coat did fit Frodo better in Moria, but, as someone pointed out, Frodo had probably lost a lot of weight between the two incidients. In the EE, Sam points out that Frodo is not eating well on several seperate occassions, and says it at least once in the theatrical edition.

Ok, now I can stop obsessing. Hope everyone liked that.
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