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Arrua
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: May 06, 2003 04:13
I think I found the answer
The Sindarin word "rem" corresponds to the Quenya "rimba" (Etym, RIM-), which HFK in his lessons gives in _plural_ form "rimbe" as "numerous, here: many". So, it looks like in Sindarin in this meaning it should also be in plural.
This word has another meaning – frequent, so, probably, in this meaning the word could be in singular, for example – "a frequent mistake" _mistrad rem_.

Lena
Wow! Thankyou for tracking down the answer to this, Lena. I've been wondering about it for a while. :love:

[Edited on 7/5/2003 by Arrua]
Malinornë
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: May 11, 2003 03:12
Do we have a clue on how the conditional subjunctive (if that´s the correct term?) can be expressed in Sindarin? I mean a sentence like “If I should (would) do something …” Can if + future tense be used?
Gildor-Inglorion
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: May 11, 2003 05:15
I dont believe we have any such attetation Malinornë . That could be one way to deal with the problem. Without looking into more deeply, I am afraid I cannot off hand reccomend a "desired" solution (if any such thing exists)
elena_s_g
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: May 11, 2003 11:28
Do we have a clue on how the conditional subjunctive (if that´s the correct term?) can be expressed in Sindarin? I mean a sentence like “If I should (would) do something …” Can if + future tense be used?


Do you mean "if + will" or "if + would"?
It's not that it mattered, of course, as Gildor says, none of them are attested.

I asked this question more than once (I mean if the future tenses are used in subordinate clauses of time and condition), Elfling included, and the answer I got there puzzled me more than anything - there no future tenses in Welsh as such!
Either Welsh is the strangest language I've ever seen , or the person just misunderstood my question.

Anyway, it looks like in "if + will" construction (first conditional) one can follow his personal taste, as we have no idea what Tolkien had in mind for it. I used present in my translations, as I believe there were some things that Tolkien just couldn't overcome (as the use of the present perfect tense in Quenya, for example), and the tendency of English to use present for future in conditional clauses might have been one of them.

As for "if + would/should" (second conditional), I don't even know what to say I believe we don't have anything in the attested material that comes even close to this, except for that _estathar aen_ "ought to be called" that seems to be the most debated phrase in Sindarin. May be it's better just to avoid this?

sorry to be of so little help

Lena

Mellon
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: May 13, 2003 04:52
Suilad ad,
I read, on lesson two, I think, that adding -og, -od, that you can say one of, or part of, like glamog as one orc of many. Is this the same way to constuct a sentence like "I want 'some' water?" where the 'some' is part of a whole, or more than will ever be needed at once.

Thanks for all the help,
~Mellon~
elena_s_g
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: May 13, 2003 05:46
Suilad Mellon,

I don't think that this ending could be used as partative article, as it actually denotes "one", and cannot be applied to ucountable nouns.
It is usually used when the noun is originally _plural_, and we need it singular, and nouns like "water" cannot be plural.

Does anyone see it differently?

Lena




[Edited on 13/5/2003 by elena_s_g]
Malinornë
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: May 13, 2003 06:43
As for "if + would/should" (second conditional), I don't even know what to say I believe we don't have anything in the attested material that comes even close to this, except for that _estathar aen_ "ought to be called" that seems to be the most debated phrase in Sindarin. May be it's better just to avoid this?
sorry to be of so little help

Thanks, Lena! That was still helpful! Now I at least know that there are two conditionals
Unfortunately I can´t avoid the subject, since I´m translating a poem that has “If I should do A, would B happen?”.

When you say you used present tense for first conditional, are you referring to your translation of 1 Cor 13? I would use present tense as well, since the English text has if+present. I was planning to use future tense in the poem translation since it seems to me that it´s about actions in the future. And I like to think that when a language does have a “real” future tense it shouldn´t be necessary to cheat by using the present tense

I´ve found an ancient Welsh tutorial, and it seems to say that Welsh does have a future tense but the verb forms are identical to the present tense. Perhaps that isn´t as odd as it may seem – in Swedish we practically always use the present tense to express future actions – the meaning is usually clear enough anyway (we´re probably lazy… our future tense is rather similar to English – auxiliary verb + infinitive).

You can probably guess what I think is the strangest language I´ve ever seen … no future tense is nothing compared to your “double” set of verbs

Malinornë
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: May 13, 2003 06:53
*warning - marathon post ahead*

Lena, here are, finally, my comments to your impressive work on compound Sindarin names.
Let me say right away that I haven´t studied this subject closely, so it may well be that most of my questions and suggestions are answered in your source material.
(It´s interesting to see that the Sindarin words in –s that originally probably had –ss have this –ss + vowel in Quenya: lossë, rassë, rossë, nossë.)

Amon Uilos – mount of ever-white snow; amon (hill, steep-sided mount), uir (eternity) + loss (snow) final “s” in “loss” is dropped at the end of a polysyllable [F]

- Couldn´t the element “ui” just be a word or prefix meaning “ever-“? It seems to be an easier explanation than “eternity” with a dropped “r”. (Quenya has “oi“ and “oio” (ever) with “oiolossë” corresponding to “uilos”).

Andrast – long cape; and (long) + *rast (*cape)

- Might “rast” perhaps be the same word as in “Nevrast”? This is from “A Tolkien Dictionary” :
S; the name was changed from Nivrost 'West-dales', and so it appears in Etym under NIB- face, Dor nef face, nivra- to face [Etym] + ROS²- Dor rost plain (between mountains) [Etym], since this region 'faced' the Great Sea [Belegaer] to the West; all map orientation was facing West, not North; the etymology was changed to ros foam, spray - 'shore' [appx]; 'Hither Shore'; originally all the northwestern coast of Middle-earth [the opposite being Haerast 'the Far Shore' - the coast of
Aman]


Angmar – iron land; ang (iron) + (m-)bar (land, dwelling) the lenition of the second element is unclear (we would rather expect "Angbar") but *could probably be explained by dialectal peculiarities of Sindarin in Arnor.

- Why is the lenition of the second element unclear? It seems perfectly regular to me, with special cases lenition of bar -> mar.

Arnor – royal land; ar(a) (prefix high, noble, royal) + (n-)dor (land, dwelling) *the second element is very strange – the word should rather be "ardor", but could probably be explained by peculiarities of Arnor dialect of Sindarin

- Why should it be “dor”? Would you expect liquid mutation because of the prefix ending in “r”? Couldn´t this just be lenition, because of ar- coming from ara- and lenition originally occuring after vowels?

Caras Galathon - *[F] fortress of trees; caras (moated fortress [UT]), galath (tree) + *on (*could be Nan. genitive suffix [F])

- Why is it “galath”, not “galadh”?

Cúthalion – strong bow; cû (bow) + thalion (strong, dauntless)

- Isn´t “thalion” rather a noun, meaning “a dauntless man”? With “-ion” being a masculine ending?

Dagor Bragollach – battle of sudden flame; dagor (battle), bragol (sudden) +
lach(flame) *"b" could probably resist lenition in dialectal forms of Sindarin

- Perhaps there´s no need for lenition if this can be seen as a genitival construction with “bragollach” as a noun?

Dampeth – response; dan (back) + peth (word)
Please explain this word! Shouldn´t it rather be nasal mutation after “dan”? And DragonFlame has “dambeth”, which I don´t understand either…

Erchamion – one handed; er (from “ereb” one, alone) + cam(b) (hand) + ion (*ending for a male name?)

I agree on the “ion” possibly being an ending for a male name. A Quenya example is “morion” (“dark one”), but it´s also possible that the ending in that case is just –on.

Fanuidhol – cloudy head; fân (cloud)+ ui (adjective suffix) + (n-)dôl (head, peak) *the leniton of the final element is very strange

- This one, as well as the other names with “dôl”, puzzle me. If it´s really NDOL- as in Etymologies, then the lenition is strange indeed, but DragonFlame lists dôl as coming from DOL instead. If that´s correct, the lenition would be regular.

Gondolin – hidden rock; gond (great stone, rock) + dollen (p.p. of “Doltha-“ conceal); [E] – heart of hidden rock; gond (great stone, rock) + dol (from “dollen” p.p. of “Doltha – conceal) + ind (inner thought, heart)

- This explanation seems rather complicated. Can´t it just be a “sindarinized” form of the Quenya name “Ondolindë” (stone+singing)?


Id(h)ril – *inner brilliance; ind (inner thought, heart)+ rill (brilliance) S form of Q “Itarillë” (Itarildë); the same suffix "rill" is found in "Mithril"

- IMO the element “inner thought, heart” is not present in the original Quenya name, where “ita” rather seems to mean “a sparkle, a flash”.

Methed-en-Glad – end of wood; methed (end) + en (sing. gen. article) + glad (wood, from ng- ? because “en-glad”, not “e-glad”)

- “en-glad” seems regular to me (according to the Mutation Chart en+g->e-g, but en+gl->en-gl.

Peredhil – half-elf; per (from “perin” halve) + edhil (elf)

- Some typos here, maybe? I guess it should rather be “half-elves” (plural) and “perin” half (adjective).

Tawar-in-Drúedain – forest of wild men; tawar (great wood, forest) + in (pl. gen. article) + drú (wild) + edain (pl. of “adan” – man) *the separation of the article from "drû" could be probably due to fact that the word was a borrowing from the language of drúedain (drughu)

- I don´t understand your comment – this seems to be a regular genitive construction

Tol Brandir – *high island; toll (island), brand (lofty, noble, fine) + dîr (traditional suffix for proper names[E]) double consonant in “toll” might be shortened because of the construct state of the word [F] * lack of mutation – dialectal differences

Could the lack of mutation perhaps be explaied by ”Brandir” being perceived as a noun because of the suffix “dîr”? But then we´d have difficulties with the translation instead…

Sorry about the length of this post, but I thought it necessary to include your explanations of each name for the benefit of others who might be interested.
/ Malinornë
elena_s_g
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: May 14, 2003 02:46
(It´s interesting to see that the Sindarin words in –s that originally probably had –ss have this –ss + vowel in Quenya: lossë, rassë, rossë, nossë.)


Yep, yep

Couldn´t the element “ui” just be a word or prefix meaning “ever-“? It seems to be an easier explanation than “eternity” with a dropped “r”. (Quenya has “oi“ and “oio” (ever) with “oiolossë” corresponding to “uilos”.


Yes, you are right, I've already corrected that myself when revising it.

Andrast – long cape; and (long) + *rast (*cape)

- Might “rast” perhaps be the same word as in “Nevrast”?


Very interstng. Needs some serious consideration

Angmar – iron land; ang (iron) + (m-)bar (land, dwelling) the lenition of the second element is unclear (we would rather expect "Angbar") but *could probably be explained by dialectal peculiarities of Sindarin in Arnor.

- Why is the lenition of the second element unclear? It seems perfectly regular to me, with special cases lenition of bar -> mar


from what we think we know about the compound formation, primitive nasalaized stops did not get lenited unless preceded by a vowel, as in "Angband">ang + (m-)band. The same about Arnor, which should be "Ardor", but I found in Tolkien's letters the passage where he explains that the latter was done on purpose, to avoid "Ardor".


Caras Galathon - *[F] fortress of trees; caras (moated fortress [UT]), galath (tree) + *on (*could be Nan. genitive suffix [F])
- Why is it “galath”, not “galadh”?


I think it was just a typo Thanks for telling me

Cúthalion – strong bow; cû (bow) + thalion (strong, dauntless)
- Isn´t “thalion” rather a noun, meaning “a dauntless man”? With “-ion” being a masculine ending?


Yes, I actually meant "a strong one". will correct it

Dagor Bragollach – battle of sudden flame; dagor (battle), bragol (sudden) +
lach(flame) *"b" could probably resist lenition in dialectal forms of Sindarin
- Perhaps there´s no need for lenition if this can be seen as a genitival construction with “bragollach” as a noun?


that's an obvious mistake on my part

Dampeth – response; dan (back) + peth (word)
Please explain this word! Shouldn´t it rather be nasal mutation after “dan”? And DragonFlame has “dambeth”, which I don´t understand either…


I don't remember why I wrote this. I'll check and say later

Fanuidhol – cloudy head; fân (cloud)+ ui (adjective suffix) + (n-)dôl (head, peak) *the leniton of the final element is very strange
- This one, as well as the other names with “dôl”, puzzle me. If it´s really NDOL- as in Etymologies, then the lenition is strange indeed, but DragonFlame lists dôl as coming from DOL instead. If that´s correct, the lenition would be regular.


I didn't know DW gave the root as "DOL-", may be another of Tolkien's reinterpretations that I missed?

Gondolin – hidden rock; gond (great stone, rock) + dollen (p.p. of “Doltha-“ conceal); [E] – heart of hidden rock; gond (great stone, rock) + dol (from “dollen” p.p. of “Doltha – conceal) + ind (inner thought, heart)
- This explanation seems rather complicated. Can´t it just be a “sindarinized” form of the Quenya name “Ondolindë” (stone+singing)?


You are right, it is the S of Quenya Ondolindë, but all S name interpretations had their own meanings, and this one is given (as usually) several times and all differently. I tried to mention all variants to track down what Tolkien changed to what.

Id(h)ril – *inner brilliance; ind (inner thought, heart)+ rill (brilliance) S form of Q “Itarillë” (Itarildë); the same suffix "rill" is found in "Mithril"
- IMO the element “inner thought, heart” is not present in the original Quenya name, where “ita” rather seems to mean “a sparkle, a flash”.

Frankly speaking, I don't know what the Quenya name elements are. I just mentioned Sindarin elements (as they are given by Tolkien) and mentioned the Quenya variant. Was too lazy to campare

Methed-en-Glad – end of wood; methed (end) + en (sing. gen. article) + glad (wood, from ng- ? because “en-glad”, not “e-glad”
- “en-glad” seems regular to me (according to the Mutation Chart en+g->e-g, but en+gl->en-gl.
Peredhil – half-elf; per (from “perin” halve) + edhil (elf)
Some typos here, maybe? I guess it should rather be “half-elves” (plural) and “perin” half (adjective).


The first could be a mistake, the second is definitely a mistake

Tawar-in-Drúedain – forest of wild men; tawar (great wood, forest) + in (pl. gen. article) + drú (wild) + edain (pl. of “adan” – man) *the separation of the article from "drû" could be probably due to fact that the word was a borrowing from the language of drúedain (drughu)
- I don´t understand your comment – this seems to be a regular genitive construction


dont remember will check

Tol Brandir – *high island; toll (island), brand (lofty, noble, fine) + dîr (traditional suffix for proper names[E]) double consonant in “toll” might be shortened because of the construct state of the word [F] * lack of mutation – dialectal differencesCould the lack of mutation perhaps be explaied by ”Brandir” being perceived as a noun because of the suffix “dîr”? But then we´d have difficulties with the translation instead…


sounds very logical

[qoute]Sorry about the length of this post, but I thought it necessary to include your explanations of each name for the benefit of others who might be interested.

The longer, the better, mellon niin
I will look into those things that I don't remember on the spot and say smth definite tomorrow.
Thank you again for spending so much time on all this. as soon as the correction is finished, I'll send you the revised version, with all stupid mistakes corrected.

Lena


elena_s_g
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: May 15, 2003 12:52
Now I can give you a full answer to your questions : ) see the previous post for some of them.

Now I at least know that there are two conditionals


There are actually five. Not that it would matter to anyone whose English is as good as yours. I believe very few native speakers know that they use five types of conditional sentences. You'd be surprised if I told you how little I know about my own language grammar – I never got a chance to teach it.

When you say you used present tense for first conditional, are you referring to your translation of 1 Cor 13?


Yes : )

I would use present tense as well, since the English text has if+present. I was planning to use future tense in the poem translation since it seems to me that it´s about actions in the future. And I like to think that when a language does have a “real” future tense it shouldn´t be necessary to cheat by using the present tense


Yes, I also rely on the assumption that Tolkien might have preferred to stick to English structure here, but from the newly published on-line VT I can see that he used future in this case in Quenya. It is still questionable if it would be the same in Sindarin.

I´ve found an ancient Welsh tutorial, and it seems to say that Welsh does have a future tense but the verb forms are identical to the present tense. Perhaps that isn´t as odd as it may seem – in Swedish we practically always use the present tense to express future actions – the meaning is usually clear enough anyway (we´re probably lazy… our future tense is rather similar to English – auxiliary verb + infinitive).


VERY interesting and VERY useful information. Thanks a lot.

You can probably guess what I think is the strangest language I´ve ever seen … no future tense is nothing compared to your “double” set of verbs


[laughs] And why is that, I wonder? I think our double set of verbs in future is very much like English Future Continuous "will be + doing" .
No kidding, I'm sure I'd find Swedish very strange indeed if I ever studied it. Languages that belong to a different language group always seem rather strange. But that sort of "broadens your horizons" (sorry about the cliché). You know yourself how studying a language helps understand the mentality of the nation. You sort of think: "Oh, that's why you are like that!" I'm so sorry I don't have time for the beautiful Scandinavian languages. But may be some day…

Let me say right away that I haven´t studied this subject closely, so it may well be that most of my questions and suggestions are answered in your source material.


Some of them are, some of them aren't. Some of them might be explained in the volumes I haven't read yet (I've only read six out of twelve)) That's why it's all so complicated. But it makes all of that even more interesting, doesn't it?

Andrast – long cape; and (long) + *rast (*cape)
Might “rast” perhaps be the same word as in “Nevrast”?


You are evidently right. Thank you for helping me to puzzle that out.

Caras Galadhon - *[F] fortress of trees; caras (moated fortress [UT]), galath (tree) + *on (*could be Nan. genitive suffix [F])
- Why is it “galath”, not “galadh”?


You are right, of course. Stupid typo : )

Dampeth – response; dan (back) + peth (word)
Please explain this word! Shouldn´t it rather be nasal mutation after “dan”? And DragonFlame has “dambeth”, which I don´t understand either…


yes, the word should be "dambeth". It looks like I can't even copy a word from Dragon Flame correctly ; )

the word goes as follows:
"dan + peth> danbeth (with regular mutation p>b) > dambeth (with n>m before p)
I don't think it could be nasal - we don't have any evidence to believe that words could receive any other mutation apart from lenition and internal spirant (liquid) within compounds.

Erchamion – one handed; er (from “ereb” one, alone) + cam(b) (hand) + ion (*ending for a male name?)
I agree on the “ion” possibly being an ending for a male name. A Quenya example is “morion” (“dark one”, but it´s also possible that the ending in that case is just –on.


Yes, yes. The only thing I still can't make out is on what ground should one be preferred over the other. The same with "ond, end" and "iond, iend" in geographical names.

Methed-en-Glad – end of wood; methed (end) + en (sing. gen. article) + glad (wood, from ng- ? because “en-glad”, not “e-glad”
- “en-glad” seems regular to me (according to the Mutation Chart en+g->e-g, but en+gl->en-gl.


you are right Perhaps they concluded that "gl" doesn't mutate like regular "g" from this very example?

Tawar-in-Drúedain – forest of wild men; tawar (great wood, forest) + in (pl. gen. article) + drú (wild) + edain (pl. of “adan” – man) *the separation of the article from "drû" could be probably due to fact that the word was a borrowing from the language of drúedain (drughu)
- I don´t understand your comment – this seems to be a regular genitive construction


you are right again : )

Ooooh… thank you so much, mellon nín! That's exactly what I've been looking for – positive criticism and reliable proofreading.

I'm still making amendments every day… This work now seems to me to be the same kind of LotR – having life of its own, expanding and growing, being further from completion now than ever…

Lena
Arrua
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: May 15, 2003 11:54
I feel a bit lazy for not looking this up myself, but I've been so busy! I'm hoping someone here already knows the answer.

I've always been usure when choosing between "an" and "na." I think I'm starting to notice a pattern, but I'm not sure if it's consistant.

an/'nin is used with indirect objects.

na/nan is used with prepositions.

I suspect it's not this clear cut.
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: May 16, 2003 02:27
na/nan is used with prepositions.

Do you mean direct objects? (I don´t have an answer, just want to make sure I understand the question)
Arrua
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: May 16, 2003 06:01
Do you mean direct objects?
No, prepostions. For example...

Bedin nan garas. (I go to the city.)
Tolo na adab nîn. (Come to my house.)

I think when it's used as a preposition, "to" is usually talking about location.
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: May 16, 2003 08:17
This is an answer given by Tchitrec from Elfling regarding a similar question about "nan" and " 'nin". The answer isn't a straight black and white one, but your conclusion is the same as his !!

In the Etymologies - so for "Noldorin" - we read for na :
NÂ(1)- [Cf. ANA(1)] (...) N _na_ with, by, prefix _an-_. Also used as
genitive sign. (LR:374)
We can also note that the stem ANA(1) is glossed "to, towards". (LR:34
Though somewhat competing with the genitive article, the use of _na_ as a
genitive sign can be found again in Sindarin, e.g. in Treebeard's Song (In
the willow-meads of Tasarinan...) in The Two Towers, book III, ch. IV
"Treebeard", where we find the names _Taur-na-neldor_ literally *Forest of
beech and _Orod-na-Thôn_ literally *Mountain of Pine (variants of Neldoreth
and Dorthonion).

In Sindarin, _na_ also has a sense close to the etymological meaning "to,
towards" : see in _A Elbereth Gilthoniel_, _na-chaered_ "to remote-distance".
It also has a more abstract sense in _na vedui_ *"at last" (Glorfindel's
greeting to Aragorn, The Fellowship of the Ring, book I, chapter 12 "Flight
to the Ford"). The precise meaning in such an idiomatic phrase is difficult
to grasp, and sometimes surprising (because traces of earlier use are not
seldom preserved).

As for _an_, the attributive meaning "to, for" is quite well established :
_Naur an edraith ammen!_ "Fire be for saving of us" (TI:175), _A Pherhael ar
am Meril suilad uin aran_ "To Samwise and Rose the King's greeting" in The
King's Letter SD 128-9, _Gurth an Glamhoth!_ "death to [the] din-horde"
UT:39, 54, in Cormallen's Praise to Frodo and Sam, The Return of the King,
book VI, ch. 4 "The Field of Cormallen" : _Aglar 'ni Pheriannath_ "Glory to
the Halflings", contracted with personal pronouns _anim_ (Gilraen's linnod,
Appendix A of LotR) and _ammen_ (see above)...

With the model of those attestations, I would use _nan_ for "to the river"
(*na hîr ?), and _(e)nin_ for "to the boy".
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: May 16, 2003 10:21
This is how I see it :

As both prepositions come from the same stem "ANA-", "NA-" and have more or less the same translation into English. From the corpus it is possible to conclude that "an" is used in relation to nouns or pronouns (an edraith, ammen, anim, 'ni pheriannath, a Pherhael ar am Meril, an glamhoth), while "na" is used in a more figurative sense with adverbs or when a word is used adverbially (na vedui, na-chaered palan-díriel).

it looks like "na" in genitive constructions was later changed to "en", "in" , as in Tol-na-Gaurhoth>Tol-in-Gaurhoth, or "nu" Dor-na-Fauglith>Dor-nu-Fauglith, etc(there are plenty of examples). But it is quite possible that "na" in this sense was also possible in TA Sindarin, as I didn't check all the names in LotR for this.

Hope this will help

Lena
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: May 17, 2003 12:44
On the "na", there is also "an", also a preposition that appears (at least to me as a newbie to Sindarin) the same thing. And, as far as I can tell, it does not cause mutations. (At least, I didn't see it listed on the mutations chart!)

"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: May 17, 2003 06:16
Gwendeth, "an" also causes mutation (nasal). It´s on the mutation chart, in the "Nasal Mutation" column.

Le hannon, Lena a Naneth! And Arrua for asking - I´ve also been wondering about this.
Malinornë
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: May 21, 2003 07:47
Suilad mellyn! Two more questions for you:

“pen” (without, lacking, -less)
- would this word generally be lenited, as in “Iarwain ben-adar”, or is the lenition here because it´s part of the adjective “fatherless”? Would “without a father” be “pen adar” without lenition?
- if “pen” is used with a noun to form an adjective (“-less”), is then the noun lenited according to the standard rule for compound words?

Can someone help me understand what a “stressed monosyllable” is? Is that “stressed” as in “receiving the stress”, thus referring to any monosyllable word, or does it rather refer to “emphasized” words, thus leaving out little things like the article and prepositions?
elena_s_g
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: May 21, 2003 09:58
yes, I think "pen-adar" is lenited here because it takes an adjectival position.
Interesting, would "peredhel" be "Elrond beredhel?"? Looks like it...

A stressed monosyllable is a word of one syllable that is stressed in a sentence. Prepositions, articles, auxilaries and suchlike are usually not stressed. All "significant" words such as main verbs and nouns are usually stressed. Adjectives can be either stressed or not depending on whether you want to emphasize them.

Hope this will help

Lena
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: May 21, 2003 11:49
Sometimes a word is stressed to distinguish it from other words that are spelled the same, but have different meanings. For example, the monosyllabic word "nin" means "me", but when you add the acute accent, "nín" means "my"...then it changes even further if it has a circumflex: "nîn" can mean "tear" or "wet, watery", or be the plural of "nen" (body of water). I think this is an important usage and reason for a stressed monosyllabic word.

~Laurel~
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: May 22, 2003 02:33
Le hannon, Lena a Laurel!
Your posts were exactly what I needed. I´d found this in ROTK: "In Sindarin long vowels in stressed monosyllables are marked with the circumflex" and wanted to make sure I interpreted it right. So, now I do believe that the possessive pronouns should have accents, not circumflexes

Lena, further on "pen-adar", if the second word had been not "adar", but something that undergoes lenition, would it then be lenited as a part of a compound word? I´m translating a poem together with my study-buddy, and we need "starless" - pen-giliath or pen-´iliath? Or perhaps we should choose "pen-elin" to avoid the question, but I´d like to know.
Laurel
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: May 22, 2003 09:45
Glad I could help, Malinornë

“pen” (without, lacking, -less)
- would this word generally be lenited, as in “Iarwain ben-adar”, or is the lenition here because it´s part of the adjective “fatherless”? Would “without a father” be “pen adar” without lenition?
- if “pen” is used with a noun to form an adjective (“-less”, is then the noun lenited according to the standard rule for compound words?


I think the lenition in "Iarwain ben-adar" is because of its role as adjective.

Lena, further on "pen-adar", if the second word had been not "adar", but something that undergoes lenition, would it then be lenited as a part of a compound word? I´m translating a poem together with my study-buddy, and we need "starless" - pen-giliath or pen-´iliath? Or perhaps we should choose "pen-elin" to avoid the question, but I´d like to know.


I am not Lena but I think I can answer that question:

It would not be lenited according to the rules for compound words, because "pen" is not a noun but a preposition so it wouldn't be part of a compound (which is formed from two nouns). And, "pen" is not listed as one of the prepositions that cause lenition. So, I would go with "pen-giliath" IMHO

~Laurel~
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: May 22, 2003 06:22
Thank you again, Laurel! It makes sense that a compound word can only consist of nouns, but I hadn´t thought about that...

EDIT: Just saw Naneth´s post below (thanks!!!)... so then it´s still "pen-giliath", but counted as a compound word, so it seems now that if the noun had begun in another letter, lenition would have occurred, unless something else would "overrule" it...

[Edited on 23/5/2003 by Malinornë]
Naneth
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: May 23, 2003 02:43
We do have words like "amloth" ... am + loth .... so only using nouns is not always the case for compound words. I do agree with Laurel's choice of "pen-giliath" though, but for another reason. In Sindarin, when "n" meets "g" in a compound word, the "g" is retained.

Yes, I would say so Mal !!

[Edited on 23/5/2003 by Naneth]
Malinornë
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: May 23, 2003 07:56
Here´s my next question, or rather request:
If you have "The Peoples of Middle Earth" (I think it´s HOME XII), could you please quote what´s said on page 357 about the interrogative words man and ma? It would be much appreciated by both myself and Iavas.
(and I *am* going to buy the book anyway...soon )
Iavas
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: May 23, 2003 08:05
If you have "The Peoples of Middle Earth" (I think it´s HOME XII), could you please quote what´s said on page 357 about the interrogative words man and ma? It would be much appreciated by both myself and Iavas.
(and I *am* going to buy the book anyway...soon )

Oooh, yes, please!!
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: May 23, 2003 11:04
I am not Lena but I think I can answer that question:


You don't have to be Lena to answer questions
I started this thread but it doesn't belong to me. Thank you, Laurel, for answering questions, exchanging of opinions is very important.

As for "pen" – I believe it should be nasal. We have several examples of nasal mutation within a compound – Annúminas
We also have the word "dambeth" with lenition instead of nasal. To that Didier Willis says that if the word was nasal mutated it would lose its evident meaning as "back word", so it might have been lenited for the sake of understanding.

That's why I agree with Laurel and Naneth that it should be "ng".

Here´s my next question, or rather request:
If you have "The Peoples of Middle Earth" (I think it´s HOME XII), could you please quote what´s said on page 357 about the interrogative words man and ma? It would be much appreciated by both myself and Iavas.
(and I *am* going to buy the book anyway...soon )


There goes the quote, buddies:

(note 1 …Manwë, the Quenya name of the "Eldar King", the chief of the Valar. This is said to have been of the same age as the names Ingwë, etc., and to contain the Valarin element aman, man "blessed, holy" learned from Oromë, and of course unconnected with the Eldarin interrogative element ma, man.


Hope this will help

Lena
Laurel
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: May 23, 2003 11:14
Oh, thanks, Naneth. I didn't realize Sindarin compounds were different than English ones. I should have known
In English, it is only considered a "compound" if it is formed by two nouns. I would like to study the formation of Sindarin compounds more thouroughly. Like a lot of areas, my knowledge of this is limited. :blush:

Lena, I just meant that the question was directed at you but I jumped in and answered it anyway (and with less knowledge).

I have the whole HoME series if anyone needs any other quotes.

~Laurel~
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: May 23, 2003 12:09
Thanks for the quote Lena! It is most irritating that it doesn´t really say anything about the use of "ma" but I guess I should have expected that...

EDIT: Note for Iavas - I´ve just read everything(?) in the TolkLang archive about "ma" and it seems noone knows anything further about this...

[Edited on 23/5/2003 by Malinornë]
jenise
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: May 23, 2003 03:01
I don't know if any of these will answer the "ma" question, but of course you know I had to go to Elfling to try and help..


Post #20393
Mornon asked:

> Fauskanger calls _ma_ a "possible interrogative particle", basing on
words as _mana_, _manen_, ecc; this could be true, but I've a doubt...

It has come to my knowledge that Tolkien does refer to _ma_ as an
interrogative particle in one manuscript, but I don't know what conceptual
stage the source belongs to. (In VT42:34, _ma_ is a neuter pronoun
"something".)

> I've read about a particle denoting uncertanty, _cé_

This, I guess, is more like English "perhaps, maybe". But surely it could
plausibly be used to form (some kinds of) questions.

- HKF


hmmmm
Iavas
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: May 23, 2003 04:09
I don't know if any of these will answer the "ma" question, but of course you know I had to go to Elfling to try and help..

EDIT: Note for Iavas - I´ve just read everything(?) in the TolkLang archive about "ma" and it seems noone knows anything further about this...

Thanks guys! I had read these posts as well in my search yesterday and have come to the same conclusion. There is no conclusion! Maybe something will materialize one day.
Fíriel
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: May 24, 2003 12:31
Hi everybody!

Okay, I'm not sure if this has been covered yet, but since I don't want to remain ignorant, I'll post anyway.

I was going through the movie dialogues and I have several questions as a result. If anybody would care to answer them, I'd be very happy.

(Not that I'd use these reconstructed words... )

From my notes on the dialogues:

HIRO; v. imp. find! (cf. Q HIR 'find'; possibly S. v. HIR-?, HIRA-?)


What would be the stem verb of this?

MERIN; adj. wish! (cf. Q. MERIN 'wish'; possibly S. v. MER-?; sentence MERIN LE TELIM = 'I wish you come {with/to} us?')


The movie dialogues list this as an adjective, but surely it's some kind of verb?

THAED; v. inf. to help (deriative of *STA- 'help'; v. THA-?; mixed conjugation?)


What would be the stem and the conjugation of this verb? This one confuzzles me...

And as a general question, PEN. In DragonFlame, it's listed as a pronoun. How would that work; something like 'One does not eat kangaroos...', or am I just being ignorant again?

TIA,
Fíriel
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: May 24, 2003 06:45
Hi Fíriel!
These are just guesses, not the result of some deep research, just so that you know

HIRO - since this is borrowed from Quenya it seems logical that it should belong roughly the same group of verb. So I´d vote for "HIR-" as the stem and conjugate it as an i-stem, like "fir-".

MERIN - it seems to me that the label "adjective" is a typo, I guess the shape of the word is possible for an adj., but it would be rather clumsy. So again, I´d vote for it to be a verb borrowed from Quenya "MER-" (to wish, to want"), and then "merin" would be 1st p present tense.
Iavas
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: May 25, 2003 02:40
Suilad Fíriel!

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
THAED; v. inf. to help (deriative of *STA- 'help'; v. THA-?; mixed conjugation?)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What would be the stem and the conjugation of this verb? This one confuzzles me...

There is a discussion of "thaed" on Elfling beginning with message #24817. I don't know if it will be any help as I don't remember them going into great detail on the conjugation, but maybe.
And as a general question, PEN. In DragonFlame, it's listed as a pronoun. How would that work; something like 'One does not eat kangaroos...',

If I understand it correctly, that is exactly how it's used. I have used it this way.

Iavas
elena_s_g
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: May 25, 2003 07:27
HIRO is David's reconstruction of the Quenya verb, I fully agree with Malinornë that if it existed, it would belong to the same group of basic verbs as in Quenya (because the are supposed to descend from one primitive root).
MERIN – I failed to find it in the movie dialogues, as I simply don't remember where it was in the film. If it existed, it would definitely be a verb, and the situation would be the same as with HIRO-.
The phrase "Merin le telim" doesn't make any sense to me. Could you say what scene it comes from?

The question about the word "thaed" was raised on Elfling twice AFAIR, once by me (the stem of the verb was then suggested as STAG- >THAG- ; second time someone asked for possible conjugation (look at the posts, kindly prompted by Iavas). If you ask me, I'd go along with Gildor Inglorion's suggested conjugation. All of them were based on HFK's suggested conjugation chart, pros&cons of which are now being discussed on "Neo-Sindarin nonsense" thread.


sindarin word "pen" comes from Primitive root KWENE-, yielding PQ kwene "person", CE kwên (-kwen) "person, one, (some)body"; Q qwén "person, individual, man or woman", chiefly used in the unstressed form quen.

In Sindarin the derivatives of KWEN were limited to this sense: pronominal "one, somebody, anybody" and to a few old compounds that survived. As a pronoun, usually enclitic, the form pen, mutated ben, survived. A few compounds survived, such as "rochben" (rider), ordben (mountaineer), arphen (a noble) (WJ, Quendi and Eldar)

From this the usage of this word as the subject of a sentence is doubtful, as in this case it would no more be enclitic. I believe it would be preferable to use the word in compounds such as "ú-ben" (nobody) or "Morben" (a dark one, from WJ:362), with relevant mutation. It could probably also appear as an object (e.g. I don't forgive anyone – ú-ohenon ben), at least nothing of the stated above seems to contradict it.

I hope this will help, mellyn

Lena
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