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Fíriel
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: May 25, 2003 08:05
Thanks Malinorne, Iavas, and Lena for your replies. I have more questions, but when we deal with Sindarin, what else do we expect? More questions than answers, at least.

It did occur to me that merin was 'I wish', but merin le telim confused me greatfully. At first glance it looked easy to translate, but the two inflected verbs in the same sentence leave me stumped. Oh, and Lena: http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/movie_fotr.htm#ld3 . From the FOTR Extended DVD, labelled Lorien Dialogue III.

Iavas, if pen was used that way, it would be third person, right? Just checking -- don't like to make mistakes.

Lena or anybody else, could you explain what 'enclitic' is (it's not in the dictionary)? Otherwise I won't understand your answer fully.

(You see, I don't have any knowledge of linguistics, and I consider myself just an amateur enthusiast of such things. Also, I don't place so much emphasis on learning the grammar of language but more on the expression -- big fan of colourful swearwords and slang here. )
elena_s_g
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: May 25, 2003 10:46
Dear Fíriel,

thanks for the link.
Unfortunately, as I already said, this phrase doesn't make any sense to me. Derdzinski mentioned himself it was very obscure, and I don't believe it's correct (at least not with this translation).

Enclitic means "not stressed". Usually enclitic words are those that follow other stressed ones, thus losing some of their stress themselves (as in compounds, where they follow another word). We can say that articles, prepositions, particles and such are often enclitic, unless you put additional stress on them emphasize them.
Thus, according to the WJ, the word "pen" cannot serve as a subject, because a subject is almost always stressed.

I hope now I've managed to make it a bit clearer

Lena
Iavas
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: May 26, 2003 05:52
Iavas, if pen was used that way, it would be third person, right?

If it were used that way, it would indeed be 3rd person. In my sentences, I realized I have never used it as the subject. I've used it in other positions. DF states that it is "Usually enclitic" which may mean that we should avoid using it this way. I had to look up "enclitic" on a grammar site, too! The sentence in which I used it is below. Lena gave us her insight on it's use from WJ and I'd like to know if there are any other opinions for or against it's use as an independant pronoun.

E annatha a phen be cairdh i phen carnen.
He will give to one according to deeds that one has done.

(You see, I don't have any knowledge of linguistics,

Neither do I. We are all learning as we go!


[Edited on 26/5/2003 by Iavas]
Naneth
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: May 26, 2003 06:04
In regards to the pronoun "pen", I think it is important to reflect on Tolkien's own words in WJ, which are....
"As a pronoun, USUALLY enclitic, the form pen, mutated ben, survived. A few compounds survived....."


The capitals are mine. In a language of so few words, I think "usually" is the go ahead to use it otherwise as well. After all, Didier Willis uses it as an individual pronoun in one of his compositions .....
Lathron BEN ned eryn, glamor uin galan ir govannem.
I hear SOMEONE in the woods, an echo of the day we met.



Trying to make the definition of "enclitic" a little easier to understand, I'll break it down into "clitic" first and then follow with "enclitic".

clitic (from Merriam-Webster online): a word that is treated in pronunciation as forming a part of a neighboring word and that is often unaccented or contracted
(An example would be the pronoun ’em in "I see ’em".)

enclitic: being a clitic that is associated with a preceding word


As far as compound words and nasal mutation goes, we also have words like Minhiriath, morben, Nornhabar, etc. which follow regular rules of lenition. Unless we know exactly WHY Tolkien chose to mutate one way or another for certain words, I think standard lenition in compounds is your safest bet !! We can't really use "ph" as an argument for nasal mutation either, as there are other instances of "ph" being used as a form of mutation where there seems to be no "apparent reason", such as in words like "aphad-, aphadon".
Iavas
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: May 26, 2003 06:42
The capitals are mine. In a language of so few words, I think "usually" is the go ahead to use it otherwise as well. After all, Didier Willis uses it as an individual pronoun in one of his compositions .....
Lathron BEN ned eryn, glamor uin galan ir govannem.
I hear SOMEONE in the woods, an echo of the day we met.

Thanks, Naneth! My hope was resting on that "usually" as well!
Fíriel
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: May 26, 2003 05:55
Thanks everybody! I think I know what 'enclitic' is now, and why pen would be unlikely to be used for the subject...
Fíriel
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: June 08, 2003 02:15
BUMP. Don't want this thread to go back to Moria...

A quick question, more out of curiosity than anything else: can anybody explain the definition of tîr to me? I don't get it. :dizzy:

[Hiswelókë's Sindarin dictionary (Edition 1.5, Lexicon 0.99)]
tîr [tˈiːr] adj.  straight, right ◇ Ety/391 ◇ OS *tîra, CE *têra, *tehrâ (TEH)
gwendeth
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: June 08, 2003 03:00
..... Good question ..... I'd like to know too!!!
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
Laurel
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: June 08, 2003 03:07
can anybody explain the definition of tîr to me?


I believe synonyms for this would include words like "correct" and "true"...as in "being straight" with someone or the "right way". I don't think this is referring to straight ahead or right as in the opposite of left.

Hope I helped.
~Laurel~
gwendeth
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: June 09, 2003 12:04
That's the definition that I am hoping it is.... and it would make sense as there is also "taer" which looks like it is just plain "straight" as is in "straight ahead"...

Le hannon!!
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
Mellon
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: June 09, 2003 04:44
This probably doesn't go right with Sindarin, but...where do we post poem's to make sure that we translated them correctly?

~Mellon~
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: June 09, 2003 05:57
okay, here is a real question for Sindarin!

There is something that I don't understand from a quote from The Two Towers.

Legolas says "boe a hyn" from where I got my translations, and I took it to mean "it is necessary and them", which made no sense. After looking at it many, many times, it just hit me:blush: that the "a" is probably from "an = for", getting "it is necessary for them", which does make sense! Should the h then become ch in "hyn", or am I missing something?

~Mellon~
elena_s_g
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: June 09, 2003 10:10
This probably doesn't go right with Sindarin, but...where do we post poem's to make sure that we translated them correctly?


in "translate poems here" I think

Legolas says "boe a hyn" from where I got my translations, and I took it to mean "it is necessary and them", which made no sense. After looking at it many, many times, it just hit me that the "a" is probably from "an = for", getting "it is necessary for them", which does make sense! Should the h then become ch in "hyn", or am I missing something?


I think he says "boe hyn", but this construction and David Salo's view of its usage has been much debated on Elfling.

Btw, did you get your translation from G-i-P? AFAIR all lines are well-explained there.

Lena
gwendeth
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: June 09, 2003 11:56
The "translation" I saw for "boe a hyn" from the movie was "necessary to them".... It could just be "literary license" that was used...

You can see all the LOTR elvish stuff on this site....

http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/gwaith3.htm

Bear in mind, though, it seems like a lot of it wasn't necessarily "attested" use.... One example that comes to mind is Aragorns "Havo dad, Legoas" (Sit down, Legolas). "Havo" (supposedly infinitiive of "hav- to sit") is nowhere "attested" and seems to just have been a construction for the movie... PLEASE NOTE: I am not criticizing.... just that not all the Elvish used in the movie can be taken as "gospel"! But I do think that MOST of it is ok....

(although, If I'm off base, someone please let me know!!!)

:dizzy:

[Edited on 10/6/2003 by gwendeth]
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
Naneth
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: June 10, 2003 03:20
Mellon, I think your observation is a good one and is right on as far as we know. You' ll notice as you go through all the lines in the movie, that "boe a hyn" isn't the only construction that is questionable from our point of view. David Salo might know many things we don't .... I wish he'd publish his thoughts on things.
Gildor-Inglorion
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: June 10, 2003 04:07
"Havo" (supposedly infinitiive of "hav- to sit") is nowhere "attested" and seems to just have been a construction for the movie...


I think you meant the Imperative mellonen

David Salo might know many things we don't .... I wish he'd publish his thoughts on things.


Indeed I do as well. He _supposedly_ is going to write up a web page about the movie dialogue and is also _supposedly_ looking for someone to publish his 300+ notes on Sindarin... guess we can only wait and see.
gwendeth
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: June 10, 2003 04:18

I think you meant the Imperative mellonen


Duh.... 4 AM was too early to post that!!! :dizzy:
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
Fíriel
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: June 10, 2003 06:15
Thanks Laurel!
gwendeth
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: June 14, 2003 10:28
Ok, folks, I have a quick question on the pronoun endings that can be added to verbs....

The example in the lessons that I found was "guren" (gur+e+n) for "my heart".

Just to clarify for myself - could/would/should(!) I then use "gurech" (or "gurel"?) for "your heart"?

It looks like the endings -ch & -l have the meaning of "you", not "your"...

Le hannon!



"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
Fíriel
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: June 14, 2003 03:58
Just to clarify for myself - could/would/should(!) I then use "gurech" (or "gurel"?) for "your heart"?

It looks like the endings -ch & -l have the meaning of "you", not "your"...


-CH is familiar, -L is reverential, so use the one that's best for your situation. What confuses me is that you asked about verb endings, when the examples you gave are nouns with possessive pronominal endings. You probably should wait until later lessons, but... the nominative suffixes are added to already-conjugated verbs; e.g. lasta-, present. lasta + -CH = lastach 'you hear'.

The chart for prononimal suffixes for nouns confused me when I first read it ("'you heart'? how does that work?" I first thought), but now, if they really are 'possessive pronominal endings', gurech & gurel have to be 'your heart', and nothing else. Perhaps that particular section should be changed to 'my, 'our', 'your', 'their', etc...
gwendeth
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: June 14, 2003 04:35
Just to clarify for myself - could/would/should(!) I then use "gurech" (or "gurel"?) for "your heart"?

It looks like the endings -ch & -l have the meaning of "you", not "your"...


-CH is familiar, -L is reverential, so use the one that's best for your situation. What confuses me is that you asked about verb endings, when the examples you gave are nouns with possessive pronominal endings. You probably should wait until later lessons, but... the nominative suffixes are added to already-conjugated verbs; e.g. lasta-, present. lasta + -CH = lastach 'you hear'.

The chart for prononimal suffixes for nouns confused me when I first read it ("'you heart'? how does that work?" I first thought), but now, if they really are 'possessive pronominal endings', gurech & gurel have to be 'your heart', and nothing else. Perhaps that particular section should be changed to 'my, 'our', 'your', 'their', etc...


What I am looking at is in Lesson 10 from the Sindarin Course Zip file... It discusses PRONOUN endings appended to NOUNS.

The endings ARE the same as the Verbal endings. It's just that the only examples given are the -n (1st person singular):

gur (heart) with the -n added becomes "guren" (my heart)
lam (tongue) with the -n added becomes "lammen" (my tongue - i.e. "my language")

(of course there's other info there, I'm just listing the examples)

I just wanted to be SURE about the other endings... :blush: and that I understood it correctly... and that I was interpreting it correctly (that gur with either -ch or -l added would be "your heart" - or gur with -m added would be "our hearts, etc.).

I'm not sure I'm making sense about what I'm asking though... :dizzy:

Le hannon!
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
Iavas
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: June 15, 2003 02:40
The endings ARE the same as the Verbal endings. It's just that the only examples given are the -n (1st person singular):

gur (heart) with the -n added becomes "guren" (my heart)
lam (tongue) with the -n added becomes "lammen" (my tongue - i.e. "my language")

The examples given are the only two attested examples of a pronominal ending appended to a noun that we have, AFAIK. If I am wrong about that, then someone please tell me! Theoretically, the other endings would be the same, but we don't have attested examples to know for sure. The possessive pronouns used independantly are used more frequently in the attested material. I hope this helps some!

Iavas
gwendeth
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: June 15, 2003 03:10
The examples given are the only two attested examples of a pronominal ending appended to a noun that we have, AFAIK. If I am wrong about that, then someone please tell me! Theoretically, the other endings would be the same, but we don't have attested examples to know for sure. The possessive pronouns used independantly are used more frequently in the attested material. I hope this helps some!


Le hannon!!

That does help!
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
jenise
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: June 15, 2003 03:14
Suilad mellyn nín,

I had asked this same question earlier somewhere and I believe that Naneth told me that the pronomial endings appended to nouns are not used hardly at all, rather the pronouns are used separately....

Nîthiel
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: June 15, 2003 11:44

Bear in mind, though, it seems like a lot of it wasn't necessarily "attested" use.... One example that comes to mind is Aragorns "Havo dad, Legoas" (Sit down, Legolas). "Havo" (supposedly infinitiive of "hav- to sit") is nowhere "attested" and seems to just have been a construction for the movie... PLEASE NOTE: I am not criticizing.... just that not all the Elvish used in the movie can be taken as "gospel"! But I do think that MOST of it is ok....


I know that, mellon niin
I have great respect for David Salo and consider his posts on TolkLang the most well-based, but until he publishes his notes I wouldn't take any of the movie language for granted (and the link that you gave is exactly what I called G-i-P - Gwaith-i-Phethdain )

the same goes for possessive pronominal endings - I don't think it's recommendable to use those that are not attested, but that's everyone's personal choice, of course

When I re-read it it looked somewhat presumptuous - I'd rather say that _I_ prefer to stick to attested words and forms, though I find Ardalambion most reliable and trustworthy.

Lena



[Edited on 16/6/2003 by elena_s_g]
Malinornë
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: June 16, 2003 05:28
Laurel (or anyone else who has "The Treason of Isengard"),
could you please quote the part of page 175 that mentions
"Naur dan i ngaurhoth!". I´m specifically looking for anything on the "irregular" mutation (would have been "in gaurhoth" according to the m. chart) or Tolkien changing his mind on the "number" of class plurals.
Laurel
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: June 16, 2003 05:42
Mellon nín,

Page 175 of the Treason of Isengard does not say anything about class plurals or the quote "Naur dan i ngaurhoth!". There is a notation of the literal translation of ""naur an edraith ammen!" as "fire be for saving of us". Are you sure of the page number? I will keep looking for you.

(would have been "in gaurhoth" according to the m. chart)

Actually, it would be "i ngaurhoth" according to the mutation chart.

~Laurel~

[Edited on 6/16/2003 by Laurel]
gwendeth
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: June 16, 2003 11:55
Ok, I've got another "fun" question!!!

Has anyone found anything, or have any ideas for the word (or concept of) "though" (as in "although", "however", "despite", etc.)???

.... just wondering ....
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
elena_s_g
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: June 17, 2003 10:27

(would have been "in gaurhoth" according to the m. chart)

Actually, it would be "i ngaurhoth" according to the mutation chart.
~


HFK explains it as a possible variation of singular/plural agreement with class plurals in "-hoth" (see his revised Sindarin lessons). Despite what some people say, it's quite unlikely that Tolkien made a mistake in LotR - we know that "hardly a word of it was not considered".

Has anyone found anything, or have any ideas for the word (or concept of) "though" (as in "although", "however", "despite", etc.)???


I think "dan" could do

I hope this helps

Lena
gwendeth
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: June 18, 2003 12:48
Yeah, "dan" was the only thing that I coud come up with, too... I just wondered!

Le hannon!
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
Malinornë
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: June 18, 2003 01:10
A question on English (or Quenya) grammar:

I´m wondering if the verb "to breathe" is transitive or intransitive.
I need it for a translation, where the English text is "the wind blew in the branches" but since there´s no word for "blow", I´m using "breathe" instead and the conjugation depends on whether it´s transitive or intransitive...

Lena, thanks for your thoughts on "-hoth".
jenise
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: June 18, 2003 01:50
Aiya Malinornë,

transitive - expressing an action that is thought of as passing over to and taking effect on some person or thing; taking a direct object to complete the meaning: said of certain verbs.

intransitive - designating a verb that does not require a direct object to complete its meaning.

(New World Dictionary)

IMHO it is probably intransitive based on the definition.

Hope that helps

Nîthiel
Laurel
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: June 18, 2003 04:59
Can't help with Quenya but English is something I know! I agree with Jenise that "breathe" would be intransitive in the example you gave. It is not always...you could say "he breathed his last breath" and it would be transitive. But, for "the wind blew(breathed) in the branches", it would be intransitive.

~Laurel~
Malinornë
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: June 18, 2003 08:22
Great! Thank you, Nîthiel and Laurel! I had used it as intransitive, but then I got a comment with "I breathe air" as an example and then I got confused. And the Quenya word is not attested in a sentence, only as an isolated word, so I´ll just go ahead and use it as it would be in English, intransitive in this case
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Post RE: the questions of eager learners -keep
on: June 20, 2003 03:19
I´m wondering if the verb "to breathe" is transitive or intransitive.
I need it for a translation, where the English text is "the wind blew in the branches" but since there´s no word for "blow", I´m using "breathe" instead and the conjugation depends on whether it´s transitive or intransitive...


It can be both transitive and intransitive depending on its meaning in a sentence. If you say "to breathe fresh air" then it's transitive, if you say "to breathe with your lungs" it works as intransitive (I think that's exactly what Laurel has said).

Lena, thanks for your thoughts on "-hoth".


my pleasure mellon niin

Lena
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