Forum

Message: 25
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 01:02:07 +0200
From: "Helge K. Fauskanger"
Subject: Edregol

Something occurred to me when I did some clean-up in my new article about
Sindarin verbs (I just uploaded a slightly revised version -- no big
revolutions here, so please don't get busy with your printers again):

http://www.uib.no/People/hnohf/sverb-rec.htm

I present some evidence that in Noldorin/Sindarin, the active participles
of A-stem verbs end in _-ol_.

The King's Letter form _edregol_, translated "in especial", looks like a
participle. Since the prefix _ed-_ may mean "forth" or "out" (see entry ET
in Etym), may _edregol_ literally mean something like *"outstanding(ly)" =
in especial? If so, an A-stem verb *edrega- "stand out, be special" may be
inferred.

Except for the prefix _ed-_, I cannot see that such a verb can readily be
connected to any known stem, though. For the middle element _-reg-_ we
would need a base *REK of suitable meaning. RAK "reach" could possibly be
related.

If _edregol_ is not a participle, it may be derived from an adjectival form
in -la (*etrekla, Middle Sindarin *_edregl_ with a syllabic final L,
Classical Sindarin _edregol_ with a newly developed vowel -- whereas
_edregol_ as a participle would represent older *_etrekâlâ, Middle Sindarin
*_edregaul_, Classical Sindarin _edregol_ with a monophthong replacing the
older diphthong in the final syllable).

- HKF

I think the _nad_ you are reffering to come from _nad no ennas_, am i right?

I also think nad is the gerund of na and means something like "being" or "thing that is" it makes me think of the greek word "on, ontos" which also means "the thing that is", the "being"

No, I found it in Derdzinski's "Fragment of Athrabeth": "Ma pul I Eru minna i nad E echant". But now I know I just translated this wrongly. Thank you.

As for _man agorech_ -

The idea being that agorech is derived from _car_ "make, do".

Yes, I know that. David Salo's arguments were: in "Arphent", translated like "and said" "ar" doesn't probably mean "and" as it takes no mutation, it lookes more like a prefix to the verb; "Tuorna" - suffix "-na" is explained as "Doriathrin genetive", which David said he'd never seen before.

Question two: Helge Fauskanger in "Sindarin- the Noble Tongue" gives "our" as "vin". What is it, something that I missed or overlooked lenition?

Question three:In Didier Willis' "Sindarin prose fragment" I found the phrase "melethril nin" (my love). What is "-ril"?

Question four: I know it's stupid to ask the same question for the second time, but looking at the passive participle explanation, I still can't get the meaning of:
"... this plural form is found by taking the ending -nnen, nnem, nner, nnech, nneg>nnin, nnim, nnir..."

the examples that I've seen so far all contain -nnen>nnin as
gostannen>gestennin, harnannen>hernennin, etc. Could you give an example with the other endings?

Question five: in TTT script I found "Na barad!" as "To the keep!". But "na" takes lenition, right? and why not "Nan barad" if it means "to the"? I know you are not responsible for David Salo' dialogues, but may be I just overlooked smth?

Sorry that I take so much of your time.

Lena

Yes, I know that. David Salo's arguments were: in "Arphent", translated like "and said" "ar" doesn't probably mean "and" as it takes no mutation, it lookes more like a prefix to the verb; "Tuorna" - suffix "-na" is explained as "Doriathrin genetive", which David said he'd never seen before.

So arphent would be a contraction of ar (and) + pent 'past tense of ped ?

True, niether have I before. Nevertheless it must mean something, and undtil something else is proposed that makes more sense I shall continue to see it as how it has been translated

Question two: Helge Fauskanger in "Sindarin- the Noble Tongue" gives "our" as "vin". What is it, something that I missed or overlooked lenition?

This is from the latest issue of VT. It seems that possessive pronouns undergo lenition because they occupy the "adjectival" space. I am working on a new pronoun chart that I hope to release soon with a much better description of how the overall system works than is given.

Question three:In Didier Willis' "Sindarin prose fragment" I found the phrase "melethril nin" (my love). What is "-ril"?

Ril can be found in words like "silmaril". It is translated roughly as "brilliance". I don't have a clue why it is appended to love though in that case.... We must also keep in mind that some of these compositions are old and have not been updated to fit with current knowledge.

Question five: in TTT script I found "Na barad!" as "To the keep!".

Actually I think this should read "am marad" to (the) keep.

Question four: I know it's stupid to ask the same question for the second time, but looking at the passive participle explanation, I still can't get the meaning of:
"... this plural form is found by taking the ending -nnen, nnem, nner, nnech, nneg>nnin, nnim, nnir..."

That is my mistake. I shall have new versions of (almost every) lesson up soon . Basically there is only one form nnen>nnin.

Suil!

I checked the dictionary - both 'an' and 'na' can have meanings of 'with'...

That is part of what I'm trying to get clear on... what is the 'best' way to say 'with the' (as well as 'into the').

I.e. - is there one particular way to 'say' those phrases that is 'better' or 'more correct', or does it just depend on the 'meaning' one is trying to put into a particular sentence? And not just in 'special cases words', but in general...

Do or can 'nin and nan mean 'with the' as well as 'to/for the?'

~ or ~ am I just confusing myself? :dizzy:

[Edited on 14/7/2003 by gwendeth]

Hmmm. Na is a preposition or a form of the verb "to be". Nad means "thing". Nad may also be the gerund of "to be" in which case it could mean a "being". I haven't seen "nad" used as a preposition but I may have missed something.

I checked the CofE dictionary again... under 'an' it says that as a preposition it can 'also mean "with, by"', as well as listing it as the prefix....

I'm interested in using 'days' as a metaphoric term for the time we spend together. ( in 'our days together)