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Neneithel
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: September 27, 2003 07:18
Hannon le, Gwendeth!

I took your advice and the result is much better.


Garo dûr uin greban
Garo dûr uin thoron
Garo dûr uin gweth thelyn.

Garo dûr uin alagos
Garo dûr uin ithil
Dûr uin anor.

Garo dûr uin aear,
Garo dûr uin thalaf,
Dûr uin menel.

Garo bathred aear,
Garo bathred amar,
Pathred venel.

Garo 'lass o eraid bain,
Avo garo nírnaeth o erarad
Anwar a mîl.

Neneithel
Rinon
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: October 03, 2003 01:00
Le Suilanon,

I'm attempting to translate a song and trying the first verse,

I would appreciate any inputs on my creative attempts on translating:

Whisper

Catch me as I fall
Gado nin sui dannon!
(Catch me as I fall!)

Say you're here and it's all over now
Pedo !'noch si ar nâ pān si i vanadh'
(Say! 'you are being here and it is now the final end')

Speaking to the atmosphere
Pedin 'nin gwilith
(Speaking to the atmosphere)

No one's here and I fall into myself
Al-pen nâ si ar dannon trî anim
(No one is here and I fall through myself)

The truth drives me into madness
I ist prestar nin noeth
(The knowledge disturbs my thoughts)

I know I can stop the pain if I will it all away.
Gerin i ist dannad i naeg ae horthathon han pân gwannad.
(I have the knowledge to stop the pain if I will urge it all to depart)

Notes:

Catch-v, gad-, gedi (inf)
as- prep, sui
Fall-, n, lant (danna, v)
Ped –v, to say, speak
Speaking-, v, ped-
here- adv., si
now – adv, si
all – pân, adj.
Final end - manadh, n, ---> lenit, vanadh
Atmosphere-,n, gwilith
Myself, pronoun, anim
nauth, n, thought
Trî , prep, through
Knowledge- ist, n
Disturbs –v, prestar
Know – understand, Henia, v
Stop – dar-, v, deri (inf)
Pain, n, neag
hold, v, gar
urge, hortha, v
if, conj, ae

Henniad veneg
gwendeth
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: October 03, 2003 06:23
Suilad! Here's some thoughts - hopefully they'll not steer you off base and give you some ideas...
Say you're here and it's all over now
Pedo !'noch si ar nâ pān si i vanadh'
(Say! 'you are being here and it is now the final end')

I think I'd translate this a little closer to the 'original' like this:
Pedo! "Le sí ar pân am manadh"
"Say! "You [are] here and all [is] at [an] end"
Speaking to the atmosphere
Pedin 'nin gwilith
(Speaking to the atmosphere)

I'd suggest the active participle 'pedol' (speaking)
No one's here and I fall into myself
Al-pen nâ si ar dannon trî anim
(No one is here and I fall through myself)

Lenit 'pen' > 'ben' when you add the prefix, and I don't think you need 'nâ'.
The truth drives me into madness
I ist prestar nin noeth
(The knowledge disturbs my thoughts)

Why not use 'thenid' or 'thenin' for 'truth'? What about this:
I thenin hâd noeth nín vi awarth vorn
The truth hurls my thoughts into dark abandonment
(although I don't know if there is a better word for 'into' here than 'vi', but I'm not sure about using "nín 'nin" :dizzy: )
I know I can stop the pain if I will it all away.
Gerin i ist dannad i naeg ae horthathon han pân gwannad.
(I have the knowledge to stop the pain if I will urge it all to depart)

I'm not sure why you don't use "Iston" for "I know" here. What about:
Iston i naeg deritha ae as horthathon gwannad
I know the pain will stop if I will urge it to depart



[Edited on 4/10/2003 by gwendeth]
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
Rinon
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: October 06, 2003 08:53
Le Hannon Gwendeth,

I appreciate your poetry skills when applied to interpreting into Sindarin. Here's my rewrite but i still have some questions:

Whisper

Catch me as I fall
Gado nin sui dannon!
(Catch me as I fall!)

Say you're here and it's all over now
Pedo! "Le sí ar pân am manadh"
("Say! "You [are] here and all [is] at [an] end")

Speaking to the atmosphere
Pedol 'nin gwilith
(Speaking to the atmosphere)

No one's here and I fall into myself
Al-ben si ar dannon trî anim
(No one (is) here and I fall through myself)

The truth drives me into madness
I thenin hâd noeth nín vi awarth vorn
The truth hurls my thoughts into dark abandonment

I know I can stop the pain if I will it all away.
Iston i naeg deritha ae as horthathon gwannad
I know the pain will stop if I will urge it to depart

Clarification requests,

1).Pedo! "Le sí ar pân am manadh"
Why does the preposition, _an_ under go lenit itseld to become _am_? I though the object of the prep undergoes lenit only?

2). Iston i naeg deritha ae as horthathon gwannad
What is the translation for _as_ ? I figure it could be a pronoun but _as_ is a third person sing. and I do not see a need for it here. Oh, by the way, I did not know about _Iston_ so I had to make a work around. _Iston_ simplifies alot of things.

Also kudos to you on the rewrire for :

The truth drives me into madness
I thenin hâd noeth nín vi awarth vorn
The truth hurls my thoughts into dark abandonment

Very nice metaphor or it that a simile (I forgot alot).

Thanks again,
gwendeth
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: October 06, 2003 09:20
Clarification requests,

1).Pedo! "Le sí ar pân am manadh"
Why does the preposition, _an_ under go lenit itseld to become _am_? I though the object of the prep undergoes lenit only?

Do you have a copy of the Mutation Chart? It's due to the Nasal Mutation. Both "an" and "dan" change form before some consonants.

2). Iston i naeg deritha ae as horthathon gwannad
What is the translation for _as_ ? I figure it could be a pronoun but _as_ is a third person sing. and I do not see a need for it here. Oh, by the way, I did not know about _Iston_ so I had to make a work around. _Iston_ simplifies alot of things.

If you look at the Pronomial Reconstruction article by Gildor (in the Language/Resources section) you'll see he proposes that "as" is "it". A very handy chart to have, too!

Also kudos to you on the rewrire for :

The truth drives me into madness
I thenin hâd noeth nín vi awarth vorn
The truth hurls my thoughts into dark abandonment

Very nice metaphor or it that a simile (I forgot alot).
Thanks again,

I'm glad I could help out... :blush:

Sindarin does take a lot of 'rewording' sometimes. I have NEVER used a "Thesaurus" as I have with trying to translate stuff into Sindarin! LOL!
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
Rinon
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: October 06, 2003 09:43
Thanks Gwendeth,

I have the mutation and pronomial charts.

IMHO, Should not "it" be accusative i.e. _han_ ?
therefore

Iston i naeg deritha ae horthathon han gwannad

or are you using _ae_ as a nominative "it" which I think is incorrect becuase it should be "I" ?

confused
gwendeth
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: October 06, 2003 09:59
I have the mutation and pronomial charts.

IMHO, Should not "it" be accusative i.e. _han_ ?
therefore

Iston i naeg deritha ae horthathon han gwannad

or are you using _ae_ as a nominative "it" which I think is incorrect becuase it should be "I" ?

confused

Goheno nin, mellon nín! :blush: I'm sorry to confuse you! I confuse myself quite enough!

First - I meant to go back and add/edit some more on the explanation of 'an' and 'dan' changing form... and I'm no linguist at all... As to why they change forms I think has to do with the pronunciation, but I do NOT want to steer you wrong on the reason.

Second - as to "han"... that and the other pronouns "ho", "ha", "he" are Noldorin - not Sindarin. Even though David Salo used them for the Movie Sindarin, I guess it is just my personal 'preferance' to use what Gildor came up with on his proposed reconstruction chart.

Third - "it" is what is being urged to depart. "I" am urging it, which is included in the verb tense ending.

Does that help any?
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
Iavas
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: October 06, 2003 10:04
Suilad! Mind if I throw in my two cents worth?

Catch me as I fall
Gado nin sui dannon!
(Catch me as I fall!)


I would reword this just a tiny bit because "sui" means "as, like" in the context of "being similar" rather than the context of "a moment in time". I would suggest "Gado nin ir dannon." "Catch me when I fall."

Say you're here and it's all over now
Pedo! "Le sí ar pân am manadh"
("Say! "You [are] here and all [is] at [an] end")


Again here, I might reword a little to clarify what you want the person to say. The way it's worded now, I get the feeling of the person actually saying "You are here and ..." when maybe your meaning should be "I am here...". See what I mean? So, maybe "Pedo i le sí ar pân tollen na vanadh." "Say that you [are] here and all has come to an end."

No one's here and I fall into myself
Al-ben si ar dannon trî anim
(No one (is) here and I fall through myself)

Accent on "sí".

I know I can stop the pain if I will it all away.
Iston i naeg deritha ae as horthathon gwannad
I know the pain will stop if I will urge it to depart

I would, personally, use "han" for it here. "Iston i naeg deritha ae han horthathon gwannad." I think you could put it either preceeding or following your verb.

Hope that might help in some way!

Rinon
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: October 06, 2003 11:14
Welcome Naneth,

Your are certainly welcomed to join in. Its amazing how the english sentences can be modified to fit what we need (except for my having trouble with Weakness and Fraility - in my Boromir Speech thread).

I certainly like the changes you mentioned since it helps in the smoothness of the tranalation back from Sindarin-English.

Whisper

Catch me as I fall
Gado nin ir dannon!
(Catch me when I fall!)

Say you're here and it's all over now
Pedo i le sí ar pân tollen na vanadh
("Say! "You [are] here and all has come to (an) end")

**This sentence structure has given me the most grief. I think between you and Gwendeth, the final tweek has made it work.

Speaking to the atmosphere
Pedol 'nin gwilith
(Speaking to the atmosphere)

No one's here and I fall into myself
Al-ben sí ar dannon trî anim
(No one (is) here and I fall through myself)

The truth drives me into madness
I thenin hâd noeth nín vi awarth vorn
The truth hurls my thoughts into dark abandonment

I know I can stop the pain if I will it all away.
Iston i naeg deritha ae horthathon han gwannad
I know the pain will stop if I will urge it to depart

** I was also using the _Han_ from Gildor's reconstruction chart and I may have misinformed Gwendeth how I used it.

Thanks to both Gwendeth and Iavas!
Malinornë
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: October 08, 2003 09:22
A poem by Dylan Thomas I instantly fell in love with when I saw it today, and decided to try to translate. Help with rewording is most appreciated, especially with lines 4 and 6!

And death shall have no dominion
A guruth ú-eritha dûr
And death will not have victory

Dead men naked they shall be one
Dîr 'wainn chill, erthathar
Dead men naked, they will unite

with the man in the wind and the west moon
na dhîr vi gwaew ah Ithil annui
with [the] man in [the] wind and [the] western moon

when their bones are picked clean and the clean bones gone
ir rhaiw rín mennin a rein rín gwennin
when their bodies are devoured and their footprints gone

they shall have stars at elbow and foot
gerithar elin na rainc a na dail
they will have stars at arms and at feet

Though they go mad they shall be sane
Neithennin faer vaer, aderthathar na hain
Deprived of sound spirits, they will reunite with them

Though they sink through the sea they shall rise again
Dannar trî aear, dan eriathar ad
They fall through sea, but will rise again

Though lovers be lost love shall not
Melethryn gwannar, dan meleth ú-fîr
Lovers pass away, but love does not die

And death shall have no dominion.
A guruth ú-eritha dûr.
And death will not have victory.


[Edited on 10/10/2003 by Malinornë]
Neneithel
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: October 09, 2003 03:22
I've started to translate the Song of Nimrodel. This is what I have so far. I am sure I have made a lot of mistakes. I've tried to keep the rhyming, but it doesn't rhyme in the same pattern as the English version.

Edit: I've done the whole poem now.

Song of Nimrodel
Laer Nimrodel

An Elven-maid there was of old,
Elleth cuiant ned ered iaur,
An elven maid lived in ancient days,
A shining star by day:
Êl sílol, míriel ned aur:
A shining, sparkling star in daylight:
Her mantle white was hemmed with gold,
Coll nim and tîn garn 'lân valthen,
Her long white mantle had a golden hem,
Her shoes of silver-grey.
Hammad dhail dîn thiant celebren.
Clothing of her feet seemed silver.

A star was bound upon her brows,
Êl glingant 'wennen or dhôl dîn,
A star hung bound on her head,
A light was on her hair
Calad thiliant or finnel dîn
A light shone on her hair
As sun upon the golden boughs
Sui glawar erin gylf velthyn
As sun on the golden branches
In Lórien the fair.
Vi Lórien vain alfirin.
In beautiful, undying Lórien.

Her hair was long, her limbs were white,
And finnel dîn, nim, rainc a tail,
Long her hair, white, arms and feet,
And fair she was and free;
A thiant lain a bain a gael.
And she seemed free, beautiful and glimmering
And in the wind she went as light
Ah sûl alag bant allong sui
With rushing wind, she went not-heavy as
As leaf of linden-tree.
I lais o orn ned urui.
The leaf of a tree in August.

Beside the falls of Nimrodel,
Nan lenthir lagor Nimrodel
By the swift waterfalls of Nimrodel
By water clear and cool,
Na nên gell lim a him,
By running water clear and cool,
Her voice as falling silver fell
Bith dîn sui celeb dannol dant
Her words as falling silver fell
Into the shining pool.
Vi ael echadel eiliant.
In a pool making a rainbow.

Where now she wanders none can tell,
Mas revia si, allam peditha,
Where she wanders now, no tongue will say,
In sunlight or in shade;
Trî glawar egor gwath;
Through sunlight or shade;
For lost of yore was Nimrodel
Nimrodel bant io anann
Nimrodel went long ago
And in the mountains strayed.
A mistant eryd chae sui mân
And wandered distant mountains like a departed spirit.

The elven-ship in haven grey
I gair edhellen vi hûb mith
The elven ship in haven grey
Beneath the mountain-lee
Di ram-en-aeglir dhaer
Beneath the great mountain wall
Awaited her for many a day
Darthant anann pen glass
Waited long without joy
Beside the roaring sea.
Nef aear asgar celair.
On this side of the rushing, brilliant sea.

A wind by night in Northern lands
Sûl ne daw vi erdhyn fuir
A wind in the night in north lands
Arose and loud it cried
Eriant a nallant brui,
Arose and cried loud,
And drove the ship from elven-strands
A hant i gair o felais vîn
And hurled the ship from our shores
Across the streaming tide.
Athraearon 'wathui.
Across the shadowy sea.

When dawn came dim the land was lost,
Na minuial palan-gennir,
Towards dawn, they saw afar
The mountains sinking grey
In eryd dhennyl vith
The mountains falling grey
Beyond the heaving waves that tossed
Athan i nen tuiol i hant
Beyond the swelling water that hurled
Their plumes of blinding spray.
Gwing i harnant sui brith.
Spray that hurt like gravel.

Amroth beheld the fading shore
Amroth cennin i falas chall
Amroth saw the veiled shore
Now low beyond the swell,
Si tofn athan aearon,
Now low beyond the ocean
And cursed the faithless ship that bore
A pent thrach erin gair i lunt
And spoke a curse on the ship that floated
Him far from Nimrodel.
O Nimrodel haeron.
From Nimrodel far.

Of old he was an Elven-king,
Ned ered iaur tunc in edhil,
In ancient days he led the elves
Brannon lant a orn,
Lord of clearing and tree,
When golden were the boughs in spring
Ir malthen gallen gylf echuir
When golden grew the spring branches
In fair Lothlórien.
Vi eryn-e-mallorn
In the wood of the golden tree.

From helm to sea they saw him leap,
O chair nan aear cennir e camp,
From ship to sea they saw he leapt
As arrow from the string,
Sui philinn o thang radol,
As arrow finding a path from the string
And dive into the water deep,
A camp vi nen nûr a celeg,
And dived into the water deep and swift
As mew upon the wing
Sui gwael nim reviol .
As a white gull flying.

The wind was in his flowing hair,
I hûl vi fast dîn lain thuiant,
The wind breathed in his free hair
The foam about him shone;
A sill i falf vregol
And the fierce foam shone;
Afar they saw him strong and fair
E palan-gennir bell a bain
Afar they saw him strong and fair
Go riding like a swan.
Norol sui alph lodol.
Riding like a floating swan.

But from the west has come no word,
Dân uin annûn ú-dellin beth,
But from the west has not come a word,
And on the Hither Shore
A erin falas hen
And on this shore
No tidings elven folk have heard
Edhil ú-'ernin hiniath.
Elves do not have news
Of Amroth evermore.
Amroth bant vi dinen.
Amroth went into silence.

Grateful as always for any comments.

Neneithel





[Edited on 11/10/2003 by Neneithel]
Iavas
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: October 09, 2003 04:57
This is really good, Mal! I like this kind of writing myself. I only have one comment, everything else is perfect as far as I can tell!

when their bones are picked clean and the clean bones gone
ir rhaiw rín medin a rein rín gwennin
when their bodies are devoured and their footprints gone

Do you think maybe "mennin" for "are devoured" rather than "medin"? It would also be consistent then with "gwennin".
Malinornë
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: October 09, 2003 10:50
Do you think maybe "mennin" for "are devoured" rather than "medin"? It would also be consistent then with "gwennin".

Looks like I misread the verb chart, which wouldn't be the first time... thanks for catching it! There are two more verses in this beautiful poem, so I'll be back
Linithiel
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: October 14, 2003 09:23
Suilad, mellyn nîn! I finally got round to translating a poem! Words like (this) are ones that I can't find translations for.:dizzy: Any comments/corrections would be muchly appreciated Le hannon!


In Dwimordene, in Lórien
Vi Dwimordene, vi Lórien

Seldom have walked the feet of Men,
Alrem i lui i thail edain pannen,

Few mortal eyes have seen the light.
Alrem i chin fírib i cennin i galad.

That lies there ever, long and bright
I ennas dartha an-uir, and a celair

Galadriel! Galadriel!

Clear is the water of your well;
Lim i nen eithel lîn;

White is the star in your white hand;
Nimp i ’il vi cam nimp lîn;

Unmarred, unstained is leaf and land
Albrestannen, alwaen lass a dor

In Dwimordene in Lórien
Vi Dwimordene, vi Lórien

More fair than thoughts of Mortal Men.
Bain athan noeth fíriath.



Sui isn't really a good word for "than", but I couldn't find anything else. Is there a better way of saying "have walked" and "have seen", as it feels like I'm using the wrong tense.:dizzy: Also, I'm not sure if I've used "al-" correctly. Thankee!


[Edited on 16/10/2003 by Linithiel]
Naneth
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: October 15, 2003 05:01
This is very nice Linithiel !! Here are a few suggestions:

In Dwimordene, in Lórien
Vi Dwimordene, vi Lórien

Seldom have walked the feet of Men,
Al-lui (many) panner i thail edain,
>>> Alrem i lui i thail edain pannen (Not numerous the times the feet of men have walked)

Few mortal eyes have seen the light.
Al-(many) chin fírib cennir i galad.
>>> Alrem i chin fírib i cennin i galad. (Not numerous the mortal eyes that have seen the light}

That lies there ever, long and bright
I ennas dartha an-uir, ann a gelair
>>> Long > and; celair wouldn't need to be lenited

Galadriel! Galadriel!

Clear is the water of your well;
Lim i nen eithel lîn;


White is the star in your white hand;
Nim i ’il vi cham nim lîn;
>>>> "white" > "nimp"; "cam" doesn't need to be lenited after "vi"

Unmarred, unstained is leaf and land
Al-brestannen, al-gwaen lass a dor
>>>> "unstained" > "alwaen"; Land > dôr

In Dwimordene in Lórien
Vi Dwimordene, vi Lórien

More fair than thoughts of Mortal Men.
Anvain sui noeth firiath.
>>> How about saying "fair beyond thoughts of Mortal Men" .... Bain athan noeth fíriath.
Linithiel
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: October 16, 2003 05:32
Thank you very much for all your comments, Naneth. I think I've fixed everything!
Neneithel
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: October 27, 2003 04:51
A short one this time. This is the closest I can come up with for "Twinkle, twinkle, little star"


Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star.

Tune at: http://www.punkyschildcare.com/music/midi_page.html

Sílo, sílo êl niben
Nauthon erin narn vrûn lín.
Haeron vi menel darthach
Sui mîr hilivren thiach.
Sílo, sílo êl niben
Nauthon erin narn vrûn lín


Shine, shine little star
I think on your old tale.
Far in heaven you stay
Like a glittering jewel you seem.
Shine, shine little star
I think on your old tale.
Beleg_S
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: November 03, 2003 09:40
This is my first post here for a while and I hope things haven't changed too much in my absence! Anyway, on with the poem! It's a translation of the Barrow-wight's chant in the book, which Gollum recites part of so eloquently in the film! Hopefully there aren't too many mistakes, but there are still a few things that I'm unsure of. Any suggestions would be most welcome!

English version:
Cold be hand and heart and bone,
and cold be sleep under stone:
never more to wake on stony bed,
never, till the Sun fails and the Moon is dead.
In the black wind the stars shall die,
and still on gold here let them lie,
till the dark lord lifts his hand
over dead sea and withered land.

Translation:
Ring cam a hûn a rhaw-harn,
Cold [be] hand and heart and body-stone,

a ring lostad nu harn:
and cold [be] sleep under stone:

ú-echuiad bo haust 'ondren,
not to wake on bed stony,

ú-echuiad, na-den Anor firnen a Ithil gwannen.
not to wake, until Sun [has] faded and Moon [is] dead.

Vi sûl vorn in giliath firithar,
In [the] wind black the stars will die,

a sí bo mall hodathar,
and here on gold they will lie,

na-den i chîr vôr ortha gam în
until the lord dark raises hand his

or 'aear 'wann a dôr tharn.
over sea dead and land withered.

Sindarin:
Ring cam a hûn a rhaw-harn,
a ring lostad nu harn:
ú-echuiad bo haust 'ondren,
ú-echuiad, na-den Anor firnen a Ithil gwannen.
Vi sûl vorn in giliath firithar,
a sí bo mall hodathar,
na-den i chîr vôr ortha gam în
or 'aear 'wann a dôr tharn.



[Edited on 6/11/2003 by Beleg_S]
gwendeth
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: November 03, 2003 10:18
I posted this a while ago, so I'm reposting to make sure I got everything correct! :blush:

Again - this was written in response to a 'challenge' to write a poem that would "rhyme" in Sindarin. Ergo - it was 'composed' in Sindarin and 'back-translated' into English. :blush:

An Elvish Lullaby
Glîr Edhellen 'nin Laes
[A] Song Elvish for the Baby

I will sing you a lullaby my child
Le linnathon 'lîr lostad hên nín.
[To] you I will sing a song [of] sleeping child mine

A song to bring you peace.
Glîr tegitha noeth lín na hîdh.
[A] song [that] will bring thoughts yours to peace.

Close your eyes, little baby mine,
Holo chin lín, laes dithen nín,
Close eyes yours, baby little mine,

Listen to my voice, it will give you rest.
A lasto lam nín, le annatha îdh.
And listen [to] voice mine, [to] you it will give rest.


You will cross the night's silent bridge,
Athrathach i iant dhínen dû,
You will cross the bridge silent of night,

And hear the laughter of leaves.
A lastathach i lalaith i laiss.
And you will hear the laughter of the leaves.

The wind's whisper is a timeless song,
I thloss en-gwaew glîr ben-lû,
The whisper of the wind [is a] song without time,

Beneath the stars are the white shores of dreams.
Nuin giliath telithach nan felais-in-elei 'lyss.
Under the stars you will come to the shores of dreams white.


Soft and sweet, my song is calling.
Moe a lend, glîr nín canel.
Soft and sweet, song my [is] calling.

Your dreams will be filled with love, my baby.
Elei lín ovrathar na veleth, laes nín.
Dreams yours will abound with love, baby mine.

You will come to morning with joy.
Nan minuial telithach na 'ell.
[To] The morning you will come with joy.

For Father and Mother are holding you now.
Adar a Naneth le garel vi rainc vín
Father and Mother you [are] holding in arms ours.

Gwendeth

(Note: I liked that suggestion, Beleg_S!)

[Edited on 4/11/2003 by gwendeth]

[Edited on 4/11/2003 by gwendeth]

[Edited on 6/11/2003 by gwendeth]

[Edited on 6/11/2003 by gwendeth]
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
Beleg_S
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: November 04, 2003 10:49
Elo! Gwendeth, that's great! I'm fascinated that you were able to compose a poem in Sindarin - I doubt I'd be able to do that!

From what I can see, it's pretty flawless - the only thing I would do (and this really is a nit-pick!) is, in the third from last line, put a comma in there, so it would read: "Elei lín pathrathar na veleth, laes nín". This is purely personal preference: I would just put it in to avoid any confusion with that line, but perhaps it would spoil the rhythm of the poem, so it's up to you.

That's a really lovely poem there - I can really imagine Elves singing that to their children!

gwendeth
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: November 04, 2003 11:51
:blush: Le hannon, Beleg_S! Glad you liked it! Hmmm - I never thought of a comma there. Might be an idea!

What I really wish, is that I had the ability to write music. I'd love to be able to actually sing it (at least where no one else could hear my voice that is! )
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
Iavas
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: November 05, 2003 07:44
Great job, Gwen! I am impressed at your being able to compose in Sindarin first, then back translate. That's pretty cool! Just a few little things I noticed.

Close your eyes, little baby mine,
Helo hîn lín, laes dithen nín,
Close eyes yours, baby little mine,

I would lenit "eyes" here as the object of "close".

My song for you is soft and sweet.
Moe a lend 'lîr nín anel.
Soft and sweet [is] song ,mine for-you.

I, personally, wouldn't lenit "song" here.

You will come to morning with joy.
I vinuial le telithach na 'ell.
[To] The morning you will come with joy.

I probably wouldn't use both "le" and the pronominal ending here.
Naneth
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: November 05, 2003 08:38
This is such a beautiful poem ... I just love it !! Here are a few suggestions of mine:

An Elvish Lullaby
Glîr Edhellen e-Laes
[A] Song Elvish for the Baby
>>>> I would use " 'nin" for "for the".

Close your eyes, little baby mine,
Helo hîn lín, laes dithen nín,
Close eyes yours, baby little mine,
>>>> "holo" would be the imperative; you don't need the accent on "chin" (eyes)

You will cross the night's silent bridge,
Athrathach i iant dhín e-dû,
You will cross the bridge silent of night,
>>>> "silent" would be "dhínen"; I would leave "e" out because "night" isn't definite

The wind's whisper is a timeless song,
I thloss en-gwaew glîr al-lû,
The whisper of the wind [is a] song without time,
>>>> for "without time" I would rather use "ben-lú" ("al" meaning "no, not" .... "pen" meaning "without, lacking")

My song for you is soft and sweet.
Moe a lend 'lîr nín anel.
Soft and sweet [is] song mine for-you.
>>>> "for you" isn't reflexive in this sentence (an easy way to find a word to rhyme here might be to find an nice appropriate "present participle" to replace "anel")

Your dreams will be filled with love, my baby.
Elei lín pathrathar na veleth, laes nín.
Dreams yours will be filled with love, baby mine.
>>>> we don't have a verb form to convey "will be filled" .... maybe you could use "ovrathar" (your dreams "will abound" with love)

You will come to morning with joy.
I vinuial le telithach na 'ell.
[To] The morning you will come with joy.
>>>> for "to the morning" > "nan minuial"
gwendeth
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: November 06, 2003 04:33
Le hannon, Iavas and Naneth!

Your comments are really helpful!
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
Iavas
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: November 06, 2003 07:47
Suilad Beleg!

Just a few comments for you! I tried to post these last night, but my ISP crashed and ate my post! So, I will try once again!

Helch nâ gam a chûr a dhi-flad,
Cold be hand and heart and under-skin, >>Am I right to lenit "cam", "hûr" and "di-flad", being the D.O. of "nâ"? Also, does anyone have any better suggestions for 'bone'? 'Under-skin' was the best I could think of.<<

"helch" is a noun for "cold" and you probably need an adjective here so how about "ring"? I would probably just leave "na" out here. That will give you the exact sentence structure DS used in the movie dialogs. In which case, those words would not need to be lenited. Spelling of "hûn". I had a few ideas for words for "bone", but internal consonant clusters are the bane of my existence so someone else may have to give you some ideas on the compounds! I came up with "skin support" - "fládulu" flâd + tulu. Also perhaps, "body support" or "body stone".

a helch nâ lostad nu harn:
and cold be sleep under stone:

Same note as above regarding "helch". I would leave "na" out here also.

Vi sûl vorn i ngiliath firithar,
In [the] wind black the stars will die,

Since "giliath" is derived from primitive "ng", it would be just "in giliath".

na-den i chîr vôr ortha gam dîn
until the lord dark raises hand his

You could probably use "în" here rather than "dîn".

or 'aear gwann a dôr tharn.
over sea dead and land withered.

Lenition of "gwann" here.
Beleg_S
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: November 06, 2003 08:07
Le hannon, Iavas! Thanks for the help - I like your suggestion of 'body-stone' for 'bone'!
gwendeth
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: November 11, 2003 05:16
This is a poem that I wrote for a story I'm writing. I know it doesn't make sense to anyone else "out of context", but I wanted to make sure I have everything right.

One small note: 'ross-vîdh' 'raindrop' is a construction of 'ross' (rain) and 'mîdh' (dew - in the sense of 'dewdrop').

Meril Nín
My Rose

Meril nín edlothiatha an-uir
My Rose will bloom forever

vi sant gûr nín.
in the garden of my heart.

Meleth nín nâ i geven
My love is the earth

i echad den galad.
that fashions her to grow.

Nîr nín gell idh ross-vîdh
My tears of joy are the raindrops

i dannar moe na dail dín.
that fall softly at her feet.

Darthathon ane an-uir,
I will stay with her forever,

ah i Anor eriatha anim;
and the Sun will rise for me;

Ú-guion pen meleth dín
I cannot live without her love

Meleth nín, Cuil nín,
My Love, My Life,

Meril nín, Hervess nín!
My Rose, My Wife!

Le hannon ad, Mal! Gwendeth

[Edited on 11/11/2003 by gwendeth]

[Edited on 11/11/2003 by gwendeth]
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
Malinornë
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: November 11, 2003 09:54
Don't be so modest, mellon nín. It's a good poem! That is obvious even without the context! I hope we might se the story eventually

A few comments:

i echâd den galad.
that fashions her to grow.

Are you sure about the long vowel in "echâd"? There's no circumflex in the verb chart...

ah i anor sílatha anim;
and the sun will shine for me;

I would write "Anor" with capital "A" and without an article - treating it like a proper noun. Also, it might not be right to use "síla-" with the sun... IMHO it refers to the white light of the moon or stars... but I don't know what you could use instead... "the sun will rise for me"?

Ú-guion ben meleth dín
I cannot live without her love

I don't think "pen" would be lenited in this position.

1. Should 'gûr' be lenited?
2. Should 'ceven' be lenited to 'geven'?
3. Should 'gell' be pluralized?
4. And/or should 'dannar' be 'danna'?


1. No, because it's in a genitival phrase.
2. Not IMHO...but you could write "i geven" to be sure and avoid discussion
3. No... there's only one joy, even if it is causing many tears.
4. No... it is the raindrops that do the falling, and they are in plural.

Hope this helped... and that I'm not too rusty...
gwendeth
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: November 11, 2003 10:00
Le hannon, Mal!

No - you're not rusty, and I appreciate your comments. You pretty much confirmed my questions. I had wondered about leniting 'pen' there too, but forgot to ask about it. And, duh - I also knew better about 'echad'. Comes from writing poems at 11:30 at night! lol! I had also debated using 'i geven' as well.

And that IS a good idea about using 'eria'. Le hannon, ad!

*running to edit*

I hope we might se the story eventually

*ahem* Well - I'm not sure... its already up to 30 chapters. :blush:

[Edited on 11/11/2003 by gwendeth]
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
Malinornë
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: November 11, 2003 10:59
I finally got to do a little translation of my own! Here follows the second, rather gruesome, stanza of the Dylan Thomas poem. I found the English quite challenging, so there may well be mistranslations due to misunderstanding of the original text, as well as the usual little mistakes... All suggestions are much appreciated!

***

And death shall have no dominion.
A guruth ú-eritha dûr.
And death will not have victory.

Under the windings of the sea
Nuin 'winiaid aearon
Under the twirlings of the sea

They lying long shall not die windily;
*Caethar anann ah ú-firithar na geleg;
They lie long and will not die swiftly;

Twisting on racks when sinews give way,
Rhaiw nyrn vi sammath boel, ir tui ristennin
Twisted bodies in chambers of torment when sinews are ripped

Strapped to a wheel, yet they shall not break;
Nedin na 'aud, *ú-nathar orthernin
Tied to a device, but they will not be conquered

Faith in their hands shall snap in two,
Bronwe *hín hain awarthatha
Their faith will abandon them

And the unicorn evils run them through;
ah in ich ym bain hain eithathar
And all the evil spears pierce them

Split all ends up they shan't crack;
*Nathar eithennin, ristennin, bauglennin - dan ú-orthernin;
They will be stabbed, ripped, tormented - but not conquered;

And death shall have no dominion.
A guruth ú-eritha dûr.
And death will not have victory.



[Edited on 12/11/2003 by Malinornë]
Iavas
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: November 11, 2003 07:08
You're right, Mal, this one is a bit gruesome. But I only have two tiny questions/comments!
Twisting on racks when sinews give way,
Rhaiw nyrn vi sammath boel, ir dý ristennin
Twisted bodies in chambers of torment when sinews are ripped

Do you think "tû" needs to be lenited here? Also, maybe the plural should be "tui"?
Malinornë
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: November 11, 2003 09:28
You're right, of course, Iavas! I changed that line several times and at one point, "tû" was the direct object...
Le hannon!
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: November 12, 2003 06:54
So, here's the last stanza of that poem by Dylan Thomas. I wont even pretend that I understand the later part, about the dead nails and characters that hammer through daisies, so please do tell me if the translation doesn't make sense

***

And death shall have no dominion.
A guruth ú-eritha dûr.
And death will not have victory.

No more may gulls cry at their ears
Si moew ú-genithar na thlaiw *hín
Now, gulls will not cry at their ears

Or waves break loud on the seashores;
A failf vrui ú-dhringathar erin felais;
And loud waves not beat on the seashores

Where blew a flower may a flower no more
Ias lotheg gall, ennas lotheg ú-orthatha
Where a flower grew, there a flower will not raise

Lift its head to the blows of the rain;
dhôl în nan draim-edh-ross;
it's head to the blows of the rain;

Though they be mad and dead as nails,
*Nar neithennin faer vaer a firn sui taes
They are deprived of sound spirits and dead as nails,

Heads of the characters hammer through daisies;
Dan bill i nýl *hin a dammathar trî eirin;
But strong are their heads and will hammer through daisies

Break in the sun till the sun breaks down,
Dringathar Anor *na-den Anor dannatha,
Will beat the sun until the sun falls,

And death shall have no dominion.
A guruth ú-eritha dûr.
And death will not have victory.

***
I did not lenit the adjective "brui" when using it as an adverb... just to show that it is supposed to be an adverb... any thoughts on that?


[Edited on 13/11/2003 by Malinornë]
Iavas
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: November 12, 2003 07:56
Suilad Mal! I'm not even going to pretend I know what he means about "heads of the characters hammer through daisies"! No corrections, just a few comments!

No more may gulls cry at their ears
Si moew ú-genithar na thlaw *hín
Now, gulls will not cry at their ears

I think "lhaw" may still need to be plural here, but maybe not. I guess it depends on if you feel it refers to one persons pair of ears or more than one person. I kind of felt the poem was referring to a group of people.

Or waves break loud on the seashores;
A failf ú-dhringathar brui erin felais;
And waves not beat loud on the seashores

I think you could actually get away with doing this either way, although I'm not going to say it's right or wrong to use an adjective as an adverb. I also think the jury is still out on the lention of adverbs following verbs. Therefore, I withhold judgement there as well! But, you could also use "brui" as an adjective and have "loud waves beat not".

Break in the sun till the sun breaks down,
Dringathar Anor *na-den Anor dannatha,
Beat the sun until the sun falls,

Just wanted to double check that you actually want the future tense here rather than the present. Either one works.
Malinornë
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: November 12, 2003 09:53
Hennaid, Iavas! Thanks for the comments - here are my thoughts on them:

- lhaw: Yes, the author is definitely talking about a group of people, and I understood "lhaw" as an ordinary plural, just "ears" in general. But you say that it refers to "a pair of ears" - the two ears of one person, so, a *dual* form. Interesting! I didn't know Sindarin had them! But I'll change to "lhaiw". Thanks for opening my eyes on this one!

- brui: Yes, "loud waves" would be the safe solution... I just hoped I might get an opinion on the adverb issue by using it

- future tense: Yes, I did want the future tense. IMHO, languages that have a true future tense will use it when talking about the future, and not use the present tense like English often does. Also, I think that this line is a logical continuation of the previous one, which was my main reason for keeping the same tense. Notice that this is my personal opinion - I do not intend to make it a theory
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