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gwendeth
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 21, 2003 07:29
Le hannon for all the great comments... I've been moving all weekend, so hopefully I can get it fixed soon!
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
gwendeth
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 22, 2003 08:58
Ok - here it is with the corrections!! * I had seen "Meri" used for "Mary" too, but somehow, I think that "Mell" works better here... I could be wrong, though!!

The only other question I have is I keep using the verb "tir-" instead of "tira-"... Is "tira-" the preferred verb?

Le hannon for all the help!!! I know I keep you guys busy!!! :blush:

What Child is This?
Man Hên Hen?
What Child [is] This

What child is this, who laid to rest, on Mary's lap is sleeping,
Man hên hen, i hoda na Vell lostol,
What child [is] this, who lays with Mary sleeping,

Whom angels greet with anthems sweet, while shepherds watch are keeping?
Ian rodyn suilannar na aerlinn velui, ir adaneth diriad hebel?
Whom angels greet with anthems sweet, while men watch [are] keeping?

This, this, is Christ the King, whom shepherds guard and angels sing.
Sen, sen, Ghristo i Aran, i adanath tiriar a rodyn linnar.
This, this is Christ the King, whom men guard and angels sing.

Come, come to bring him laud, the babe, the son of Mary.
Tolo, tolo, togo egleriad 'nin laes, i Vellion.
Come, come, bring praise to the babe, the son of Mary.

Why lies he in such mean estate, where ox and ass are feeding?
E caetha vi sad dhofn, ias levain medir.
He lies in a gloomy place, where animals eat.

Good Christian fear, for sinners here, the silent word is pleading.
Aphadrim vaer, gosto, an raegdain si, i beth dhínen pedol.
Followers good, fear, for sinners here, the word silent [is] speaking.

This, this, is Christ the King, whom shepherds guard and angels sing.
Sen, sen, Ghristo i Aran, i adanath tiriar a rodyn linnar.
This, this is Christ the King, whom men guard and angels sing.

Come, come to bring him laud, the babe, the son of Mary.
Tolo, tolo, togo egleriad 'nin laes, i Vellion.
Come, come, bring praise to the babe, the son of Mary.

So bring him incense, gold and mhyrr, come peasant, king to honor him.
Togo aint 'nin laes, tolo adan ah aran a togo aglar 'nin laes.
Bring gifts to-the babe, come man and king and bring glory to-the babe.

The King of kings salvation brings, let loving hearts enthrone him.
I Aran in-erain veriad tôg, e guir vilui egleriathar aen.
The King of kings protection brings, he hearts loving should praise.

This, this, is Christ the King, whom shepherds guard and angels sing.
Sen, sen, Ghristo i Aran, i adanath tiriar a rodyn linnar.
This, this is Christ the King, whom men guard and angels sing.

Come, come to bring him laud, the babe, the son of Mary.
Tolo, tolo, togo egleriad 'nin laes, i Vellion.
Come, come, bring praise to the babe, the son of Mary.



[Edited on 22/6/2003 by gwendeth]
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
Malinornë
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 23, 2003 08:27
Gwendeth, I like "Mell"!
I don´t know if "tíra-" is preferred, but they seem to have a little different meaning:
"tir-": gaze, guard, look at, look towards, watch, watch over
"tíra-": see
And then there´s also "tiria-", with more or less the same meaning as "tir-"

*** *** ***

This is a verse by Tolkien that I came across in "Sauron Defeated" yesterday, and I just couldn´t help translating it at once. Now help find the mistakes, please

My soul´s desire over the sea-torrents
Mael e-faer nín an aer-théryd
My spirit´s lust for sea-torrents

forth bids me fare, that I afar should seek
pêd enni ed-vaded ar farad
tells me to go forth and hunt

over the ancient water´s awful mountains
athan ered doer en-aearon iaur
beyond (the) awful mountains of the ancient ocean

Elf-friends´ island in the Outer-world.
i dôl in-elvellyn vi ardh chaeron.
the island of the elf-friends in a distant realm.

For no harp have I heart, no hand for gold,
Gúren ú-aníra ´annad, cammen ú-aníra gôl
My heart does not desire harp-play; my hand does not want gold

in no wife delight, in the world no hope:
Ú-genin veleth vi bess, ú-genin amdir vi gardh:
I see not love in a woman, I see not hope in the world:

one wish only, for the wave´s tumult.
er-iest gerin: i ´lam en-falf.
a single wish I hold: the wave´s tumult

Edited: Le hannon, Gwendeth ar Iavas!


[Edited on 29/6/2003 by Malinornë]
gwendeth
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 23, 2003 10:59
I have translated “Silent Night” into Sindarin (surprise, surprise!)
I would love any comments/corrections/advice!!! Le hannon!

Silent night, holy night,
Dû dhínen, dû aer,
Night silent, night holy

all is calm, all is bright
Sîdh bân, aglar bânl
Total peace, total glory (brilliance)

Round yon virgin, mother and child,
Os-beliol i naneth neth a hên în,
Spreading around the young mother and child hers.

Holy infant so tender and mild,
Laes aer, voe a melui
Infant holy, soft and sweet

Sleep in heavenly peace,
losto vi sîdh venelui,
Sleep in peace heavenly,

sleep in heavenly peace.
losto vi sîdh venelui.
sleep in peace heavenly.


Silent night, holy night,
Dû dhínen, dû aer,
Night silent, night holy

shepherds quake at the sight,
adanath gostar uin gened,
men feel fear from-the sight,

Glories stream from heaven afar,
Eglair siriar o menel chaeron,
Glories flow from heaven far

heavenly hosts sing "Alleluia";
rodyn venelui linnar "Alleluia";
divine-beings heavenly sing "Alleluia";

Christ the Savior is born,
Christo i leitha onnen,
Christ who frees is begotten,

Christ the Savior is born.
Christo i leitha onnen.
Christ who frees is begotten.


Silent night, holy night,
Dû dhínen, dû aer,
Night silent, night holy

Son of God, love's pure light,
Eruion, i galad lim o meleth,
Son of God, the light clear of love,

Radiant beams from Thy holy face
Uin thîr lín siria calad faen
From-the face yours flows light radiant

with the dawn of redeeming grace;
uin amrûn tôl i ant cuil
from-the dawn comes the gift of life

Jesus Lord at thy birth,
Iesus, Hîr na onnad lín,
Jesus, Lord at begetting yours,

Jesus Lord at thy birth.
Iesus, Hîr na onnad lín.
Jesus, Lord at begetting yours.


[Edited on 27/6/2003 by gwendeth]
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
Pendhínen
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 23, 2003 12:38
Hey all,

I am new to this whole forum thing... it seems pretty cool to me! I have a poem that I tried to translate, and I need some corrections now. Here is the original version:

Look!
Middle-earth, a free land
the Valar do not rule it--
Once we journeyed here,
but now we know it not.

Listen!
The birds, the beasts-- they are speaking
their tongues are unlike those used in Valinor--
once we understood them,
but now we know them not.

Do you feel it?
A silence is here, a darkness
It is the darkness we have come to destroy.
Hatred of it flames in our hearts,
and yet we can do nothing.

Were we foolish to attempt this?
The Valar remain behind us in the West--
we are alone, alone with a Shadow.
The Ainu Melkor.
The Vala Morgoth.
________
Here is the Sindarin version I came up with:
_________

Tiro!
Endor, thalath lain
i melain ú-torthar--
Min padannem sí,
dan si ú-istam.

Lasto!
i filig, i lavan-- pedeler
i laim ú-sui laim ne Valannor
Min heniannem ti,
dan si ú-cheniam ti.

???
dhîn sí, dhúath
i dhúath tollem degi.
del dortha ne 'ûr mín,
dan ú-pulir car.

garannem naw faeg?
i melain derir adel ammen nen Annûn--
mín erui, mín erui andúath.
i malan Melkor.
i malan Morgoth.
______
Here is the literal:
_______

Look!
Middle-earth, [a] land free
the Valar do-not-control [it]
Once we-walked here,
but now we-don't-have-knowledge [of it]

Listen!
the birds, the animals, they [are] speaking
the languages [are] not-like the languages in Valinor--
Once we-understood them,
but now we-don't-understand them.

???
[a] silence [is] here, [a] darkness/shadow
[it is] the darkness/shadow we-came to-slay.
Loathing [of it] dwells in hearts ours,
but we-can't-do [anything].

[Did] we-had idea bad?
The Valar they-stay behind us in the West--
Us alone, us alone with [a] shadow.
The Vala Melkor.
The Vala Morgoth.

___________
I could use any help that you could give me. This is my first translation, so I will get a lot of corrections I'm sure... one line I need help on is "do you feel it". In the dictionary I used there wasn't a verb for 'feel' or 'sense'. Also, I am looking for a word for 'Ainu' that isn't a word for 'Vala', so that in the Sindarin version I can tell the difference. One more thing-- is the plural form of 'lam'= 'tongue' supposed to be 'laim'?

Thanks!
Pendhínen

ps.~ I posted this on the Sindarin News and Resources forum first! What a booboo!
Laurel
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 23, 2003 01:14
Pendhínen,

Here are some comments/suggestions about your poem:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tiro!
Endor, thalath lain
i melain ú-torthar--
Min padannem sí,
dan si ú-istam.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Middle Earth= Ennor
land=talath
"melain"? where did you get this?
"min"="one", not "once"...I think you need more here..maybe use the word "lû"(time) and say "lû min"
we walked= pannem

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lasto!
i filig, i lavan-- pedeler
i laim ú-sui laim ne Valannor
Min heniannem ti,
dan si ú-cheniam ti.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

you need to pluralize "lavan">levain
you need the present tense for are speaking here, "pedim"
I don't know about using the prefix "u-" with anything other than a verb
of="na" Valinor
Again, "min" means "one", so I think you need to add "lû" before it

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
???
dhîn sí, dhúath
i dhúath tollem degi.
del dortha ne 'ûr mín,
dan ú-pulir car.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Perhaps "tirach?" ("you see?") since the next lines speak of darkness...just a thought
dîn and dúath, don't lenit these
maybe you could change the next line to "this darkness we came to destroy"= "dúath hen tellim degi"
you may want "vi" for "in" here
gûr does not need to be lenited
"ú-pulir"...not sure where you got this..maybe say "ú-carim vach min" (we not-do one thing)

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
garannem naw faeg?
i melain derir adel ammen nen Annûn--
mín erui, mín erui andúath.
i malan Melkor.
i malan Morgoth.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"gernim"= we had
"ammen" means "for us", so use "men" here
"in" would be "vi"
"malan"?...I don't recognize this word

One more thing, yes, the plural of "lam" would be "laim".
Hope this helps some.
~Laurel~
gwendeth
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 24, 2003 01:25

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tiro!
Endor, thalath lain
i melain ú-torthar--
Min padannem sí,
dan si ú-istam.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Middle Earth= Ennor
land=talath
"melain"? where did you get this?
"min"="one", not "once"...I think you need more here..maybe use the word "lû"(time) and say "lû min"
we walked= pannem



"melain" is lenited from "belain", plural of "balan" (Vala, divine power).

In which case "i" should be pluralized to "in"... So, the right mutation, but not pluralized!
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
Malinornë
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 24, 2003 07:39
"melain" is lenited from "belain", plural of "balan" (Vala, divine power).
In which case "i" should be pluralized to "in"... So, the right mutation, but not pluralized!

...in+belain > i melain... at least according to the mutation chart (the "n" almost always disappears before a consonant; the plural is visible from the different mutation)

[Edited on 24/6/2003 by Malinornë]
gwendeth
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 24, 2003 07:45
[quote...in+belain > i melain... at least according to the mutation chart (the "n" almost always disappears before a consonant; the plural is visible from the different mutation)

[Edited on 24/6/2003 by Malinornë]

Oops! I always miss that!
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
gwendeth
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 25, 2003 07:30
Well, here's another poem!! ("Original" this time!!) :blush: I know there will be lots of corrections to be made!!!

LE HANNON MAL!

Dreaming
Olthol
Dreaming

I dreamed about an Island,
Olthannen o Dôl,
I dreamed of [an] Island,

Lost upon the sea.
Gwannen erin gaear.
Lost on-the sea.

Hidden from the eyes of Men,
Dolen uin hîn in Edain,
Hidden from-the eyes of-the Men,

And veiled in secrecy.
Hall a thurin..
Veiled and secret.


I dreamed that I heard voices,
Olthannen lastannen lammath,
I dreamed [that] I heard voices,

Singing in the night.
Linnol ned i dhû.
Singing in the night

Songs not heard by Human ears,
Glîr ú-lastennin na tlhaw Firin,
Songs not-heard by ears Human,

I heard them in my heart.
Hain lastannen vi guren.
Them I heard my-heart.


I dreamed that I saw shadows,
Olthannen cennin dhúath,
I dreamed [that] I saw shadows,

Dimly through the mist.
Gwathrol trín chîth.
Dim through-the mist.

Shadows moving, shadows dancing,
Dúath badol, dúath gabol na glîr,
Shadows walking, shadows leaping to song,

Underneath the stars.
Nuin giliath.
Under-the starry host.


I dreamed the shadows called me,
Olthannen i núath cennir enni,
I dreamed the shadows called to-me

I heard their voices fair.
Lastannen lammath hîn vain.
I heard voices theirs fair.

Calling "Welcome to our Island!"
Canel "Mae govannen na Dôl vín!"
Calling "Welcome to Island ours!"

"Come join our joyous song!"
Tôlo a linno 'lîr veren vín!"
"Come and sing song joyous ours!"


I dreamed that I was walking,
Olthannen pannen,
I dreamed [that] I was walking,

On lost shores wide and grey.
Bo felais 'wennin, laind a vithrin.
On shores lost, wide and grey.

That arms reached out to hold me,
Rainc rîn ed-rathanner a nin gernir,
Arms theirs reached out and me they-held me,

And voices begged me to stay.
Dartho! Pennir i lamath.
Stay! Said the voices.


I dreamed about an Island,
Olthannen o Dôl,
I dreamed of [an] Island,

Lost upon the sea.
Gwannen erin gaear.
Lost on-the sea.

And then I awoke.
A nae! Echuiannen.
And alas! I awoke.

And I cried.
A nallannen.
And I cried.



[Edited on 26/6/2003 by gwendeth]

[Edited on 26/6/2003 by gwendeth]

[Edited on 26/6/2003 by gwendeth]
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
Malinornë
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 26, 2003 06:48
Suilad Gwendeth! Here come the comments I promised. I think you might find it useful to check the use of the active participle and the gerund as well as the passive participle and the past tense - the they look the same in English but are used differently...

I dreamed about an Island,
Olthannen *o Dôl,
I dreamed of [an] Island,
*I’m not sure if “o” is best here…
//In my opinion it is.

Lost upon the sea.
*Gwannen erin ngaear.
Lost on-the sea.
*I got this from a composition on G-I-P… not sure if it’s the best one to use… I had thought of using ú-caned (“unseen” …
//I like it. I think it's the same word as the Quenya "vanwa" used for "lost" by Galadriel in Namárië. Erin + gaear would be mixed mutation, no change in this case.

Hidden from the eyes of Men,
Dolen uin hín *en Edain,
Hidden from-the eyes of-the Men,
*I wasn’t quite sure about using “en” here… I had thought that “o” would be ok???
//I wouldn´t use "o" in a construction like this - I see it as a "genitival relationship". But it would be better with "in Edain" (plural article) I think. From DragonFlame it seems the spelling of "eyes" would be either "hin" or "hîn"

And veiled in secrecy.
A hall vi thurin.
And veiled in secret.
//"thurin" is an adjective. so if you want to use it you´ll have to change the line to something like "veiled and secret" or veil the island in something else

I dreamed that I heard voices,
*Olthannen *lastannen lammath,
I dreamed [that] I heard voices,
*I wasn’t “exactly” sure how this type of sentence should be put together… I don’t think two of the “same” verb forms are correct
//I´m not sure either but I would also put it like this.

Songs not heard by Human ears,
Glîr ú-lastennin na lhaw Firin,
Songs not-heard by ears Human,
//"lhaw" would lenit to "thlaw"

I heard them in my heart.
Lastannen ren vi gûren.
I heard them in my-heart.
//I would use "hain" for "them", since it´s not referring to persons, and place it in front of the verb. Check spelling of "guren".

I dreamed that I saw shadows,
Olthannen cennin dûath,
I dreamed [that] I saw shadows,
//Check spelling of "dúath" - circumflexes tend to change to accents or disappear when endings are added. It also needs to be lenited > dhúath, as the object of "saw".

Dimly through the mist.
*Gwathraden trín chîth.
Dimly through-the mist.
*I added the -en suffix to turn "gwath" "shadow" into an adjective... but I'm not sure if that's best...
//I think "dimly" is an adverb, so making an adjective might not do the trick here. Perhaps you could change it a little "I dreamt that I saw shadows, vague through the mist" using the existing adjective "hethu" (it would then need to be lenited and pluralized since it would describe "shadows". Or you could use the active participle of "gwathra-" > gwathrol, which would function as an adjective. The adjective suffixes can only be used to form adjectives from nouns.

Shadows moving, shadows dancing,
Dûath pedir, dûath cebir na glîr,
Shadows walking, shadows leaping to song,
//I would use the active particple here: padol, cabol (need to be lenited as "adjectives"). I wonder if perhaps "shadows" here might be considered the object of "saw", since it´s logically a continuation of the sentence beginning "I dreamed that I saw shadows..."

Underneath the stars.
Nuin gîliath.
Under-the starry host.
//Check spelling of "giliath"

I dreamed the shadows called me,
Olthannen i ndûath cennin enni,
I dreamed the shadows called to-me
//"the shadows" would be in+dúath > i núath. "called" would be "cennir" here, with no pronoun, just "-r" for plural.

I heard their voices fair.
Lastannen lammath rîn vain.
I heard voices theirs fair.
//I would use "hîn" for "their", since "rîn" would be used of persons. If you want an attested word you might have to settle for "dín", I think.

Calling "Welcome to our Island!"
*Caned "Mae govannen ne Dôl vín!"
Calling "Welcome to Island ours!"
*I wasn't sure whether the gerund or the present tense of "can-" is best here...
//The active participle (canel) would be best. The gerund would mean "a calling", similar to the noun "a call". Check spelling of "na".

"Come join our joyous song!"
Tôlo! *Ertho 'lîr veren vín!"
"Come! Join song joyous ours!"
*It seems like the imperative works best here???
//I agree. "join" is imperative in English too, I think. I´m a bit hesitant on the vocabulary - "ertho" would mean "unite"... Perhaps it would be better to reword as "Come and join your voice to ours in song" or just "come and sing with us". Or use "ertho-" and blame it on artistic freedom

On lost shores wide and grey.
Vi felais 'wennin, *lend a vithrin.
On shores lost, wide and grey.
*Ok, due to the "discussion" on another thread I lenited "mithrin", even though "lend" isn't...
//I´d use "bo" for "on". The discussion was about the question of lenition after an implied "is" and there´s no form of the verb "to be" in this sentence, so it doesn´t seem to apply here. So it would be either "felais ´wennin, laind a vithrin" with all adjectives lenited or "felais ´wennin, laind a mithrin" with no lenition after "a"... whichever you choose to believe is correct.

That arms reached out to hold me,
Rainc rîn ed-rathennin a gerir nin,
Arms theirs reached out and held me,
//"reached" is the past tense here, not a passive participle, so it would be "rathanner". I would place "nin" in front of "gernir" (past tense if you want it to mean "held")

And voices begged me to stay.
Dartho! Penir *i lamath.
Stay! Said the voices.
*Nasal mutation of plural "in" drops the "n" correct?
//...yes, but it isn´t always dropped, so it´s safest to check the chart Check spelling of "pennir".

And then I awoke.
A den *echuiannen.
And then I awoke.
*I had to use the “unattested” verb “echuia-“ “to wake” here… is there anything better? Perhaps “eria-“ “to rise”??
//You already have unattested "ratha-" and some pronouns, so one more wouldn't cause additional harm, I think. I don´t understand the choice of "den" for "then". I think Naneth once suggested "na i lû" (at that time), but it might not fit here. Perhaps you could avoid it by rewording to "But I awoke." or "Alas! I awoke".

And I cried.
A nallannen.
And I cried.
//As I almost did when I read this! Beautiful as always! You´re so good at poems!
gwendeth
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 26, 2003 10:40
Well I think I've got the edits done correctly.... I must have been hitting the wrong "key" combination on "dúath"... I keep hitting the one for û instead of ú!!! ARGG!!

Le hannon, again!!!
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
Malinornë
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 27, 2003 03:07
Suilad Gwendeth!
I noticed that your "Silent night" was uncommented, so here are some for you:

all is calm, all is bright
pân sîdh, pân ril
all [is] peace, all [is] brilliant
//I think "ril" may be "a brilliant", so I´d use the adjective "celair" instead. It is also debated whether "pân" can be used as a subject, so I might even turn this line around to "sîdh bân, aglar bân" ("total" peace, total "brilliance"); I´m not too sure...but it might fit better with the next line---it would then be the peace and brilliance spreading, not the "all"...

Round yon virgin mother and child,
Os-beliol i rodwen chaeron, naneth a hên,
Spreading around the virgin far, mother and child
//I would think "yon" just means "that one" here, so I wouldn´t translate it. I wonder if "virgin" is used as an adjective ("a virgin mother"), because otherwise this sounds as if three persons were present; a virgin, a mother and a child... but then there´s no fitting word in Sindarin unless we can get away with "mother of virginity" which might just sound silly. Perhaps just "young mother"?

Sleep in heavenly peace,
losto vi sîdh venelui,
Sleep in peace heavenly,
* I didn't think "sîdh" needed to be lenited here
//You´re right - as far as we know "vi" doesn´t trigger any mutation

Christ the Savior is born,
Christo i leitha onnen,
Christ who frees is begotten,
* Another option I thought of was: "Christo i leithad onnol,", just not sure which is best...
//I think your second option would translate something like "Christ the born freedom", so I prefer the first one unless we feel brave and try to make a word for "freer"..."leithor" perhaps?

Son of God, love's pure light,
Eruion, i galad lim o meleth,
Son of God, the light clear of love,
* I wasn't sure whether "Eruion" or "Iôn o Eru" would be better here
//I like "Eruion", but I don´t know if it´s "allowed" with three vowels in a row... I would omit the "o" in "galad lim o meleth".

with the dawn of redeeming grace;
uin amrûn tôl i ant e guil
from-the dawn comes the gift of life
//I would use the simplest genitival construction (ant cuil) since it´s just "life", not "the life".

This is a well-known and much loved song in Sweden too, but the text is quite different even if the overall meaning is the same.
gwendeth
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 27, 2003 05:13
Le hannon Mal!!!

I was beginning to think I had gotten ONE translation "right" the first time! (yeah, right!) LOL
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
Iavas
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 27, 2003 04:12
Suilad Mal! Just a few different ideas for you!

My soul´s desire over the sea-torrents
Mael faer nín an aer-théryd
My spirit´s lust for sea-torrents
***Do you think since "spirit's lust" shows possession that it needs to be a genitival phrase? "mael e-faer"

forth bids me fare, that I afar should seek
nin pêd ed-vaded ar farad
tells me to go forth and hunt
***What do you think about modeling this after "Guren bêd enni" and using "enni" instead of "nin"?

over the ancient water´s awful mountains
thar-ered doer aearon iaur
across awful mountains of an ancient ocean
***What do you think about using "athan" meaning "beyond" in place of the compound? The mountains aren't "across" anything, he is hunting "beyond" them. Does that make sense? Plural "orod" is "eryd". I think this is genitival as well so maybe "in-aearon".

Elf-friends´ island in the Outer-world.
i dôl in-elvellyn vi ardh chaeron.
the island of the elf-friends in a distant realm.

For no harp have I heart, no hand for gold,
Gúren ú-aníra gannad*, cammen ú-aníra gôl
My heart does not desire harp-play; my hand does not want gold
*** What would you think about rewording this a bit? Maybe "An ngannel ú-'erin 'ûr, a chôl ú-'erin gammen" - "For harp I have not heart, for gold I have not hand".

in no wife delight, in the world no hope:
Ú-genin veleth vi bess, ú-genin amdir vi gardh:
I see not love in a woman, I see not hope in the world:
***I would do the same here I think. "vi hervess ú-'erin 'lass, vi gardh ú-'erin amdir:" > "in a wife I have not joy, in world I have not hope:"

one wish only, for the wave´s tumult.
er-iest gerin: i ´lam en-falf.
a single wish I hold: the wave´s tumult


* would this perhaps have to be lenited as the object of the verb, since it´s a gerund used as a noun rather than as an infinitive?
***I think so.

Return comments are most welcome, mellon nín!

Malinornë
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 27, 2003 09:42
Le hannon Iavas! Most welcome ideas!
My soul´s desire over the sea-torrents
Mael faer nín an aer-théryd
My spirit´s lust for sea-torrents
***Do you think since "spirit's lust" shows possession that it needs to be a genitival phrase? "mael e-faer"

//I´m absolutely positive that "spirit´s lust" is a genitival phrase, if involving possession or not. I was using the "genitive by simple juxtaposition" introduced in the pdf lessons, suggested for genitival phrases without "of the". But now when I think of it, perhaps there should always be an article when a genitival phrase involves a pronoun, as in "i eneth nín" and "i thîw hin", as opposed to "aglar elenath". But then there´s no article in "lasto beth lammen" and not in "mhellyn în phain"... What do you think? Should we be governed by all the examples from "Ae Adar nín"? It seems to me that either way may be possible here, but your suggestion may be more likely since we only see "nín" with an article (unless there are examples I don´t know of, which is very likely )

forth bids me fare, that I afar should seek
nin pêd ed-vaded ar farad
tells me to go forth and hunt
***What do you think about modeling this after "Guren bêd enni" and using "enni" instead of "nin"?
//I thought about it but was unsure of where to put "enni" and if the gerunds would qualify as the direct objects perhaps required for the it´s use. I´m not against it.

over the ancient water´s awful mountains
thar-ered doer aearon iaur
across awful mountains of an ancient ocean
***What do you think about using "athan" meaning "beyond" in place of the compound? The mountains aren't "across" anything, he is hunting "beyond" them. Does that make sense? Plural "orod" is "eryd". I think this is genitival as well so maybe "in-aearon".
//I thought of the mountains as the waves and that the journey would be across those waves. But perhaps "beyond" makes more sense... > athan eryd doer aearon iaur? Or would you put an article after "athan"? It seems from Dragon Flame that "orod" has two attested plurals - "ered" as well as "eryd". I agree on the genitive but would not use the genitival article here. Unless we make it "athan in eryd", because then an article might be called on for "the sea" to agree in "definitiveness" (which is not a word in English, but I hope you understand anyway) with "the mountains".

For no harp have I heart, no hand for gold,
Gúren ú-aníra gannad*, cammen ú-aníra gôl
My heart does not desire harp-play; my hand does not want gold
*** What would you think about rewording this a bit? Maybe "An ngannel ú-'erin 'ûr, a chôl ú-'erin gammen" - "For harp I have not heart, for gold I have not hand".

//Your suggestion is more literal of course...I had something like that in my first version, but decided against it since I think "gar-" has a more limited use than English "have". I feel that "having" a heart or a hand for something might be ideomatic, just as "having" joy or hope. To me, "gar-" seems very closely connected to ownership, to possession of things. I may be wrong, but I wanted to avoid using a construction I don´t fully believe in.
I now realize I´m contradicting myself by saying "er-iest gerin" in the last line, so I need to reword that....perhaps "er-iest nín" (one is my wish)? Or "min i iest nín" with an article and a hint of the implied "is"?

* would this perhaps have to be lenited as the object of the verb, since it´s a gerund used as a noun rather than as an infinitive?
***I think so.

//Le hannon! There goes the alliteration... (the original was in Anglo-Saxon, which I don´t know at all, except for some words that are a fascinating mix of modern English and Scandinavian, but I noticed there were lots of alliterations...hopelessly difficult to uphold with limited vocabulary and annoying mutations...)

Return comments are most welcome, mellon nín!
//As are comments to the return comments
Iavas
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 28, 2003 04:58
//I´m absolutely positive that "spirit´s lust" is a genitival phrase, if involving possession or not. I was using the "genitive by simple juxtaposition" introduced in the pdf lessons, suggested for genitival phrases without "of the".

Personally, I prefer to use the genitival article unless the phrase involves proper nouns. I think juxtaposing the words works well for phrases like "Elrond's daughter, Sauron's eye", etc, but using the article when the nouns are common seems to make the meaning more clear.
But now when I think of it, perhaps there should always be an article when a genitival phrase involves a pronoun, as in "i eneth nín" and "i thîw hin", as opposed to "aglar elenath". But then there´s no article in "lasto beth lammen" and not in "mhellyn în phain"... What do you think? Should we be governed by all the examples from "Ae Adar nín"? It seems to me that either way may be possible here, but your suggestion may be more likely since we only see "nín" with an article (unless there are examples I don´t know of, which is very likely )

I think it is possible to do it either way here. I like the constructions with the article myself when using "nín, dín, or lín" because I like the way it sounds when spoken.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
forth bids me fare, that I afar should seek
nin pêd ed-vaded ar farad
tells me to go forth and hunt
***What do you think about modeling this after "Guren bêd enni" and using "enni" instead of "nin"?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

//I thought about it but was unsure of where to put "enni" and if the gerunds would qualify as the direct objects perhaps required for the it´s use. I´m not against it.

If you were to use it, I would put it following "pêd". Your translation works just an well, I just prefer "enni".
//I thought of the mountains as the waves and that the journey would be across those waves. But perhaps "beyond" makes more sense... > athan eryd doer aearon iaur? Or would you put an article after "athan"?

Oooo, I hadn't thought of it as the waves. I still think you'd do better to use "athan" instead of "thar-" because it seems to me you would need to attach "thar-" to your verb and you already have "ed-" prefixed there.
***I just thought of something on the way to work. You could attach it to "farad", though. "thar-farad" >hunt-across" That would probably work if you prefer "thar-".
It seems from Dragon Flame that "orod" has two attested plurals - "ered" as well as "eryd".

I see that now! Duh! :blush:
I agree on the genitive but would not use the genitival article here. Unless we make it "athan in eryd", because then an article might be called on for "the sea" to agree in "definitiveness" (which is not a word in English, but I hope you understand anyway) with "the mountains".

I tend to feel that the definitiveness of "the mountains" is included in the genitival phrase in that we are talking about "mountains of the sea". IMHO this tells which specific mountains we are speaking of, thereby, making it definitive without the article. Does that make sense? If my reasoning is right, you could then use "athan ered doer in-aearon iaur"which, IMO, is more clear.
//Your suggestion is more literal of course...I had something like that in my first version, but decided against it since I think "gar-" has a more limited use than English "have". I feel that "having" a heart or a hand for something might be ideomatic, just as "having" joy or hope. To me, "gar-" seems very closely connected to ownership, to possession of things. I may be wrong, but I wanted to avoid using a construction I don´t fully believe in.
I now realize I´m contradicting myself by saying "er-iest gerin" in the last line, so I need to reword that....perhaps "er-iest nín" (one is my wish)? Or "min i iest nín" with an article and a hint of the implied "is"?

"Gar-" is "have, possess". I feel that one can "possess" emotions such as hope and joy. They do, after all, belong to the one feeling them. But, you must use them the way you perceive them or you won't be satisfied with your work. If you reword, I think I would recommend "er-iest nín" or "min iest nín". I wouldn't use "min i iest..." simply because of the repetitive "i". The sound would eventually be swallowed up by the "i" in "iest" and disappear anyway.

***See edited note on "thar-" above.

[Edited on 29/6/2003 by Iavas]
Malinornë
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 28, 2003 06:35
Le hannon, Iavas! I´ll ponder your answers for a while and edit some things tomorrow

Good suggestion on thar-! I didn´t see that possibility and used it on "ered" since "baded" was "occupied". But your other suggestion, "beyond" looks even better, so I used that instead. And some other things as well. Thanks again!

[Edited on 29/6/2003 by Malinornë]
gwendeth
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 28, 2003 07:20

Son of God, love's pure light,
Eruion, i galad lim o meleth,
Son of God, the light clear of love,
* I wasn't sure whether "Eruion" or "Iôn o Eru" would be better here
//I like "Eruion", but I don´t know if it´s "allowed" with three vowels in a row... I would omit the "o" in "galad lim o meleth".


I don't know if this is 'off the topic' or not, but I just thought of something on this - all of the words for 'sea/ocean' in Sindarin have 3 vowels in a row: 'gaear'/'aear'/'gaearon'/'aearon'.

Would the difference perhaps be that 'Eruion' is a compound word and the others aren't?
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
gwendeth
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: July 02, 2003 10:32
I have, of course been busy!! Here's another poem for correction/comment/advice! :blush: (I actually wrote two versions of it, but only posting one at a time!)

Le hannon pain!

WAITING
DARTHAD

*Unless it should be "darthol"??

Their eyes gazed out across the sea.
Hîn chain tirnir athan i ‘aear,
Eyes theirs gazed beyond the sea,

*I’m not sure ‘hain’ is the correct word for ‘theirs’ here.
*I think ‘tir-‘ is more correct here than ‘tiria-‘. Unless 'palan-dirnir' (viewed far and wide) is even better?

The sun shone down on golden hair.
I anor sill dad bo finnel valthen.
The sun shone down on hair golden.

*I wasn’t sure whether I “needed” to have ‘dad’ here, or whether ‘bo’ is the correct word

The Elves were gathered at the harbor’s edge;
In Edhil darthanner na lond lanc;
The Elves waited at [the] harbor edge;

*I had thought about using ‘gevennir’ for ‘they were met’, but felt like ‘darthanner’ (they waited) was better.

The red-gold sun was falling.
I anor goll dannol.
The golden-red sun [was] falling.

*I wasn’t sure whether ‘dannol’ was better, or if it should just be the regular past tense ‘dannant’.


Breaths were drawn, the longing grew,
Hwist thuianner, i anírad gall,
Breaths were breathed, the desiring (longing) grew,

*I couldn’t think of anything better for ‘were drawn’… Ideas???

The Western Way was calling.
I Râd Annûn canel.
The Path West [was] calling.

*I thought ‘annûn’ (west) fit better here than ‘annui’ (western) for the Sindarin

“Oh how much longer must we wait?”
“Ai, manen anann boe darthar?”
“Oh, how long is it necessary we wait?”

Became their silent plea.
Genedianner vi dîn.
They reckoned in silence.

*I didn’t know if ‘to reckon’ would be best. I have seen a ‘neo-Sindarin’ ‘mabent’ for ‘asked’, but I wasn’t sure whether ‘mabennir’ (they asked) was better than ‘genedianner’. I did wonder about putting ‘to themselves’ there…


Tall and slender, faces fair;
Tond a fim, thîr vain;
Tall and slender, faces fair;

The sea was gray and cold.
Mithren a ring i ‘aear.
Gray and cold [was] the sea.

A tall ship rocked gently in the breeze;
Cair dond lunt bo i nen;
[A] Ship tall floated on the water;

*I couldn’t think of any other way to put this in Sindarin…

A voice said, “Ready now.”
Pent lam, “Pân hûr.”
Said [a] voice, “All [is in] readiness.”

*Is there a better word than 'lam' for 'voice'? 'Lamath' is plural, and I didn't really want the plural here...

“Come now, friends, it’s time to go.”
“Tolo si, mellyn, boe bedathar.”
“Come now, friends, it is necessary [that] we will go.”

“To say ‘farewell’ to lands we know.”
“Pedo ‘navaer’ an nýr istam.”
“Say ‘farewell’ to lands we know.”

“The sails are set!” the sailors cried,
“I chair hûr iuithad!” nallaner i chiryn,
“The ship [is in] readiness [for] using!” cried the sailors,

*I couldn't think of any other way to put this... darn it!

“The wind is at our backs!”
“I ‘waew hwinia adel men!”
“The wind is whirling behind us!”


Their eyes gazed out across the sea.
Hîn chain tirnir athan i ‘aear,
Eyes theirs gazed beyond the sea,

The sun shone down on golden hair.
I anor sill dad bo finnel valthen.
The sun shone down on hair golden.

And joy was felt in beating hearts;
A gellam eriant vi guir vlabel;
And jubilation arose in hearts beating;

The Elves were going home.
In Edhil bennir na var chain.
The Elves were going to home theirs.

*Again, wasn’t sure if ‘hain’ is the best choice for ‘theirs’ here

[Edited on 2/7/2003 by gwendeth]

[Edited on 2/7/2003 by gwendeth]
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
Malinornë
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: July 03, 2003 10:42
Yes! Busy poets are the best kind! Here are some comments:

WAITING
DARTHAD
*Unless it should be "darthol"??

//That depends Do you mean waiting as a "process" (gerund) or a description of "the state" of the elves doing the waiting (participle)? "The waiting of the Elves" or "The waiting Elves"? How would you interpret "Sailing" as in Rod Stewart´s song?

Their eyes gazed out across the sea.
Hîn chain tirnir athan i ‘aear,
Eyes theirs gazed beyond the sea,
*I’m not sure ‘hain’ is the correct word for ‘theirs’ here.
*I think ‘tir-‘ is more correct here than ‘tiria-‘. Unless 'palan-dirnir' (viewed far and wide) is even better?

//You need a possessive pronoun for "theirs", so "hain" doesn´t fit. I´m afraid "dín" (his etc.) might be the best choice if you want an attested pronoun, otherwise you could use Gildor´s reconstruction "rín".
I agree on "tir-". "Palan-dir-" would also work I think and perhaps that one is even nicer...as in "Elbereth".

The sun shone down on golden hair.
I anor sill dad bo finnel valthen.
The sun shone down on hair golden.
*I wasn’t sure whether I “needed” to have ‘dad’ here, or whether ‘bo’ is the correct word
// I wouldn´t use "dad"...perhaps you could use "penna-" (slant down")... if the glory of stars can do that, then it should fit for sunlight as well. And "síla-" is "shine white", so I wouldn´t use that for the light of the sun. I would treat "Anor" as a proper noun - without article. Perhaps "on" in this case can be rendered by "na" as in "at, towards".

The Elves were gathered at the harbor’s edge;
In Edhil darthanner na lond lanc;
The Elves waited at [the] harbor edge;
*I had thought about using ‘gevennir’ for ‘they were met’, but felt like ‘darthanner’ (they waited) was better.
//I agree I would use a genitive phrase for "the harbour edge" > "the edge of the harbour" > lanc e-lond

The red-gold sun was falling.
I anor goll dannol.
The golden-red sun [was] falling.
*I wasn’t sure whether ‘dannol’ was better, or if it should just be the regular past tense ‘dannant’.
//I think "dannol" looks nice.

Breaths were drawn, the longing grew,
Hwist thuianner, i anírad gall,
Breaths were breathed, the desiring (longing) grew,
*I couldn’t think of anything better for ‘were drawn’… Ideas???
//You would need the passive participle for "were breathed" > thuiennin
But I think I would cheat and suggest something else, perhaps "They breathed sea air"?

The Western Way was calling.
I Râd Annûn canel.
The Path West [was] calling.
*I thought ‘annûn’ (west) fit better here than ‘annui’ (western) for the Sindarin
//Yes, it sounds nicer... but it would be understood as genitive I think, "The Path of the West", if that matters.

“Oh how much longer must we wait?”
“Ai, manen anann boe darthar?”
“Oh, how long is it necessary we wait?”
//I think this would either be "..boe dartha" for a general "how long is it necessary to wait" or "...men boe dartha" for "how long is it necessary *for us* to wait". Or perhaps "...boe dartha ammen" with the long dative.

Became their silent plea.
Genedianner vi dîn.
They reckoned in silence.
*I didn’t know if ‘to reckon’ would be best. I have seen a ‘neo-Sindarin’ ‘mabent’ for ‘asked’, but I wasn’t sure whether ‘mabennir’ (they asked) was better than ‘genedianner’. I did wonder about putting ‘to themselves’ there…
//Maybe "nautha-" (conceive > think)?

Tall and slender, faces fair;
Tond a fim, thîr vain;
Tall and slender, faces fair;
//Pluralize "tall and slender" I think, since "faces" are plural and you talk about Elves in general, not one particular.

The sea was gray and cold.
Mithren a ring i ‘aear.
Gray and cold [was] the sea.
//Great compromise

A tall ship rocked gently in the breeze;
Cair dond lunt bo i nen;
[A] Ship tall floated on the water;
*I couldn’t think of any other way to put this in Sindarin…
// I wonder if "erin" could be used instead of "bo i". It´s glossed "on the", but since it comes from "or+i" it might rather mean "above the" and wouldn´t fit here :dizzy:

A voice said, “Ready now.”
Pent lam, “Pân hûr.”Said [a] voice, “All [is in] readiness.”
*Is there a better word than 'lam' for 'voice'? 'Lamath' is plural, and I didn't really want the plural here...
//Since "lamath" (echoing voices) is said to be collective plural of "lam" it seems logical to assume that "lam" can be used for "voice"...

“Come now, friends, it’s time to go.”
“Tolo si, mellyn, boe bedathar.”
“Come now, friends, it is necessary [that] we will go.”
//I think "boe bedathar" would mean "*they* must go, if at all a possible phrase. I would use one of the alternatives suggested in the "Ai, manen..." sentence above.

“To say ‘farewell’ to lands we know.”
“Pedo ‘navaer’ an nýr istam.”
“Say ‘farewell’ to lands we know.”
//"dôr" is on my favourite list... the one with the "special cases" mutations, so an+dýr > an ndýr

“The sails are set!” the sailors cried,
“I chair hûr iuithad!” nallaner i chiryn,“The ship [is in] readiness [for] using!” cried the sailors,
*I couldn't think of any other way to put this... darn it!
//Or simplify: The ship is waiting for to sail...

“The wind is at our backs!”
“I ‘waew hwinia adel men!”
“The wind is whirling behind us!”

Their eyes gazed out across the sea.
Hîn chain tirnir athan i ‘aear,
Eyes theirs gazed beyond the sea,
//Same comment as above

The sun shone down on golden hair.
I anor sill dad bo finnel valthen.
The sun shone down on hair golden.
//Same comment as above

And joy was felt in beating hearts;
A gellam eriant vi guir vlabel;
And jubilation arose in hearts beating;
//Nice way to put it!

The Elves were going home.
In Edhil bennir na var chain.
The Elves were going to home theirs.
*Again, wasn’t sure if ‘hain’ is the best choice for ‘theirs’ here
// "their" would be "în" here...it´s referring back to "the Elves"

Great poem! Hope the comments were useful

[Edited on 4/7/2003 by Malinornë]
gwendeth
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: July 04, 2003 02:13
Le hannon, Mal!!!

WAITING
DARTHAD
WAITING


Their eyes gazed out across the sea.
Hîn rîn palan-dirnir athan i ‘aear,
Eyes theirs gazed beyond the sea,

The sun shone down on golden hair.
Glawar pennant na finnel valthen.
Sunlight slanted down towards hair golden.

The Elves were gathered at the harbor’s edge;
In Edhil darthanner na lanc e-lond;
The Elves waited at [the] harbor edge;

The red-gold sun was falling.
I anor goll dannol.
The sun golden-red [was] falling.


Breaths were drawn, the longing grew,
Thuianner i 'welu e-gaear, i anírad gall,
They breathed the sea's air, the desiring (longing) grew,

The Western Way was calling.
I Râd Annui canel.
The Path Western [was] calling.

“Oh how much longer must we wait?”
“Ai, boe men dartho anann?”
“Oh, is it necessary [for] us to-wait long?”

Became their silent plea.
Nauthanner vi dîn.
They thought in silence.


Tall and slender, faces fair;
Tynd a fim, thîr vain;
Tall and slender, faces fair;

The sea was gray and cold.
Mithren a ring i ‘aear.
Gray and cold [was] the sea.

A tall ship rocked gently in the breeze;
Cair dond lunt erin nen;
[A] Ship tall floated on the water;

A voice said, “Ready now.”
Pent lam, “Pân hûr.”
Said [a] voice, “All [is in] readiness.”

“Come now, friends, it’s time to go.”
“Tolo si, mellyn, lû bedi.”
“Come now, friends, [it is] time to-go.”

“To say ‘farewell’ to lands we know.”
“Pedo ‘navaer’ an ndýr istam.”
“Say ‘farewell’ to lands we know.”


“The sails are set!” the sailors cried,
“I chair dartha reviad!” nallaner i chiryn,
“The ship is waiting [for] sailing!” cried the sailors,

“The wind is at our backs!”
“I ‘waew hwinia adel ven!”
“The wind is whirling behind us!”


Their eyes gazed out across the sea.
Hîn rîn palan-dirnir athan i ‘aear,
Eyes theirs gazed beyond the sea,

The sun shone down on golden hair.
Anor pennant na finnel valthen.
The sun slanted down towards hair golden.

And joy was felt in beating hearts;
A gellam eriant vi guir vlabel;
And jubilation arose in hearts beating;

The Elves were going home.
In Edhil bennir na var în.
The Elves were going to home theirs.

[Edited on 2/7/2003 by gwendeth]

[Edited on 2/7/2003 by gwendeth]

[Edited on 4/7/2003 by gwendeth]

[Edited on 4/7/2003 by gwendeth]

[Edited on 4/7/2003 by gwendeth]

[Edited on 4/7/2003 by gwendeth]

[Edited on 5/7/2003 by gwendeth]

[Edited on 5/7/2003 by gwendeth]
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
Malinornë
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: July 04, 2003 06:08
Okay, here are some more suggestions

Their eyes gazed out across the sea.
Hîn rîn palan-dirnir athan i ‘aear,
Eyes theirs gazed beyond the sea,

*Should 'rîn' be lenited to 'rhîn'?
//No. The possessive pronouns are "pre-lenited". And even if "rin" would be lenited, the form would be the same - "r" doesn´t change.

The sun shone down on golden hair.
Anorgalad pennant na finnel valthen.
[The] sunlight slanted down towards hair golden.
*Should it perhaps be 'anor calad' for 'sun's light?
//I guess you can have it as a compound, but it looks a bit unusual. I would prefer "calad Anor" for "sun´s light" ="the light of the sun". But there are also existing words for "sunlight" > "aur" (also means day) and "glawar". I think I would use "glawar"!

Breaths were drawn, the longing grew,
Thuianner i 'aear gwelu, i anírad gall,
They breathed the sea's air, the desiring (longing) grew,

*Does 'gwelu' need lenition? This is where I get confused!
//"i ´aear gwelu" would translate as "the sea of [the] air"... you need to reverse the word order > "i gwelu gaear" - think of it as "the air of [the] sea" and the second word would not be lenited - think of "Aran Moria" as an example if you will (it´s not "Aran Voria"!). But since you have "of the", I would use the genitive article in this case > "i gwelu e-gaear"

“Oh how much longer must we wait?”
“Ai, boe dartha ammen?”
“Oh, is it necessary to-wait for us?”
//You decided to skip "anann"? "Oh, must we wait for long?" was nice too... After I wrote the first comment I´ve started to think that perhaps a gerund would be better than the infinitive here, only because the infinitives seem hardly to be used at all.

“The sails are set!” the sailors cried,
“I chair dartha revia!” nallaner i chiryn,
“The ship is waiting to-go!” cried the sailors,
*Would that be the correct way to put it?
//I´d use the gerund instead of the infinitive > dartha reviad.

Their eyes gazed out across the sea.
Hîn rîn palan-dirnir athan i ‘aear,
Eyes theirs gazed beyond the sea,
*Same question on 'rîn'!
//Same answer...lol
gwendeth
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: July 04, 2003 11:25
Le hannon ad!!

Now, here's the 'first' version of the poem... This is the version I posted in the 'fanfiction' section...

WAITING (v.1)
DARTHAD
WAITING

Blue eyes gazed out across the sea.
Hin thlýn palan-dirnir athan i ‘aear,
Eyes blue gazed beyond the sea,

The sun shone down on golden hair.
Glawar pennant na finnel valthen.
Sunlight slanted down towards hair golden.

Slim fingers grasped a mighty bow;
Lebid fim gernir gû veleg;
Fingers slim held [a] bow mighty;

The red-gold sun was falling.
I anor goll dannol.
The sun golden-red [was] falling.


A breath was drawn, the longing grew,
Thuiant i 'welu e-gaear, i anírad gall,
He breathed the sea's air, the desiring (longing) grew,

The Western Way was calling.
I Râd Annui canel.
The Path Western [was] calling.

“Oh how much longer must I wait?”
“Ai, boe nin dartho anann?”
“Oh, is it necessary [for] me to-wait long?”

Became his silent plea.
Nauthant vi dîn.
He thought in silence.


Tall and slender, a face so fair;
Tond a fim, thîr vain;
Tall and slender, [a] face fair;

The sea was gray and cold.
Mithren a ring i ‘aear.
Gray and cold [was] the sea.

He heard a step behind him;
Lastant ben adel den;
He heard somebody behind him;

A voice said, “Ready now.”
Pent lam, “Pân hûr.”
Said [a] voice, “All [is in] readiness.”

“Come now, friend, it’s time to go.”
“Tolo si, mellon, lû bedi.”
“Come now, friend, [it is] time to-go.”

“To say ‘farewell’ to lands you know.”
“Pedo ‘navaer’ an ndýr istan.”
“Say ‘farewell’ to lands you know.”

“The sails are set!” the sailors cried,
“I chair dartha reviad!” nallaner i chiryn,
“The ship is waiting for sailing!” cried the sailors,

“The wind is at our backs!”
“I ‘waew hwinia adel ven!”
“The wind is whirling behind us!”


Blue eyes gazed out across the sea.
Hîn thýn palan-dirnir athan i ‘aear,
Eyes blue gazed beyond the sea,

The sun shone down on golden hair.
Anor pennant na finnel valthen.
The sun slanted down towards hair golden.

And joy was felt in an Elvish heart;
A gellam eriant vi gûr Edhellen;
And jubilation arose in [a] heart Elvish;

Legolas was going home.
Legolas bant na var în.
Legolas was going to home his.



[Edited on 5/7/2003 by gwendeth]

[Edited on 5/7/2003 by gwendeth]
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
Malinornë
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: July 04, 2003 12:48
Suilad Gwendeth! It seems everyone was too busy celebrating, so I was alone in the chat
But at least I checked the "Legolas" version while waiting and have some comments for you:

Blue eyes gazed out across the sea.
Hîn thlûn palan-dirnir athan i ‘aear,
Eyes blue gazed beyond the sea,
//Pluralize "thlûn". The preferred spelling of "eyes" seems to be "hin", I think. And less risk to mix up with "child".

A breath was drawn, the longing grew,
Thuiant i gwelu e-gaear, i anírad gall,
He breathed the sea's air, the desiring (longing) grew,
//You need to lenit "gwelu" here because of "i"

“Oh how much longer must I wait?”
“Ai, manen anann boe im dartha?”
“Oh, is it necessary [am] I to-wait?”
* With the singular here - would it maybe be better to have just 'darthon' - or, do I have the sentence order correct?
//Well, you could simplify to "Will I wait long?", but as I see it that wouldn´t have to do with singular or plural... the impersonal construction with "boe" would require "im" in dative, so "boe nin dartha" or "boe dartha enni". I´m growing suspicious regarding "manen"...isn´t that Quenya? If so, it means "how" in the sense "in what way" and can hardly be used in a phrase like "how long". I would use just "anann" > "Must I wait long

Became his silent plea.
Nauthant vi dîn.
He thought in silence.
*Or perhaps 'Nauthant vi dîn athen' - 'He thought to himself in silence'? In which case, would that work for the other version as well - adding 'aner' - 'to themselves'?
//If you want to try that, you´ll need the "reflexive datives", of which I think only "anim" (for myself) is attested. Gildor´s reconstructions are "ane" (to/for himself) and "aner" (to/for themselves).

He heard a step behind him;
Lastant pen adel dhen;
He heard somebody behind him;
* should 'pen' be lenited here?
//Yes, as the object of "lastant". The accusative pronouns are "pre-lenited", so "him" is just "den"

And joy was felt in an Elvish heart;
A gellam eriant vi guir Edhellen;
And jubilation arose in [a] heart Elvish;
//Singularize (is that a word?) "guir"
gwendeth
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: July 04, 2003 03:00
“Oh how much longer must I wait?”
“Ai, manen anann boe im dartha?”
“Oh, is it necessary [am] I to-wait?”
* With the singular here - would it maybe be better to have just 'darthon' - or, do I have the sentence order correct?
//Well, you could simplify to "Will I wait long?", but as I see it that wouldn´t have to do with singular or plural... the impersonal construction with "boe" would require "im" in dative, so "boe nin dartha" or "boe dartha enni". I´m growing suspicious regarding "manen"...isn´t that Quenya? If so, it means "how" in the sense "in what way" and can hardly be used in a phrase like "how long". I would use just "anann" > "Must I wait long


Le hannon, ad, Mal!

I haven't (yet) changed anything for this line in either poem because of the "manen" question...

I was going by the "reconstruction" on the "Phrases" page (silly me!) :blush: - because it shows "manen" for "how" and "manen anann" for "how long".

I like the phrase "Must I (or) we wait long" ... but would I still use "dartha" in the infinitive, or change it to the appropriate verbal ending? :dizzy: I just want to be sure I understand what I'm doing! I may have gotten confused when you asked if I had removed "anann"!

"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: July 04, 2003 08:45
Gwendeth, le suilannon!

I had no idea "manen anann" was in the "Phrases" section, and I´m sure Gildor didn´t put it there just like that... BUT
1.) I remember him saying earlier this spring that "Phrases" needed to be checked; he´d changed his mind on some things.
2.) Derdzinski, who has a lot of suggested pronouns on his site, does not offer "manen" for Sindarin. His reconstructed pronoun for relative "how" is "ian" (from older janen), which in my amateurish imagination would rather point to "man" as the interrogative counterpart (even if it already is used for who and what).
3.) To me, "manen" looks a lot like the question particle "ma" with an instrumental ending. The instrumental case is used to show "how" things happrn, in the sense "by what means", which is why I find it unlikely that it can be used in the phrase "how long?" even if we decide that "manen" made its way into Sindarin with case ending and all.

NOTE: Just my personal thoughts, to explain how I see it...lol.
But regardless of what you think about this, "manen" would still be a reconstruction, which would be an objective reason for not using it whether it´s correct or not.

"Must I / we wait long?"
"boe" is used in impersonal sentences, this you already know. This means that the logical subject is put in the dative case and that the infinitive (or gerund?) form of the verb is used.

NOTE that I didn´t check the verb chart, so I assumed "dartha" was an infinitive :blush: I am very sorry about that!!!

Must I wait long? > "Boe nin dartho anann?"
Must we wait long? > "Boe men dartho anann?"
The literal translation would be "Is it necessary for me/use to wait long". You have "for me/for us" ("dative") and the verb is in the infinitive "to wait", so the Sindarin and English grammar would be similar in this case > no need for pronominal ending on the verb.

My hesitation on which dative pronoun should be used (nin/enni and men/ammen) or if we should use infinive or gerund here still applies!

I hope this didn´t confuse you further!?
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: July 05, 2003 01:31
Actually, no it didn't!!! Le hannon! I prefer not using the 'unattested' words as much as possible myself, but we'd be really limited then!!! :dizzy:

Le hannon ad, Mal!
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
gwendeth
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: July 13, 2003 03:01
Suilad mellyn!

I have been presented with a 'challenge' so to speak, of translating Hamlet's 'Soliloquy' (or at least part of it) into Sindarin...

This has (to say the least) created several 'issues', as I have had (unfortunately) to use our most 'unfavorite' Sindarin verb (to be), as well as the movie 'reconstruction' of 'pilinn' for 'arrows'. I don't know if anyone else has tried this, and I haven't tried searching, as I wanted a 'stab' at it myself. Hopefully, what I have come up with is ok.

I also used the 'infinitive' form on the verbs a lot, but that also may not necessarily be the best thing...

To be or not to be, that is the question.
No egor ú-no, nauth hen enni drastol.
To be or not to be, this thought to me [is] troubliing.

Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
Ae anvrand vi nauth bronio
If [it is] nobler in thought to endure

the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
i chedlaith a pilinn amarth alvauglannen,
the slings and arrows [of] fate unconstrained,

or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
egor dagro dan ngaear naeth,
or to make war againast [a] sea [of] woes,

and by opposing, end them.
a maethad hain, tegi hain am meth .
and [in] fighting them, to bring them to [an] end.

All advice and comments gratefully needed!

Le hannon, pain!

[Edited on 14/7/2003 by gwendeth]

[Edited on 14/7/2003 by gwendeth]

[Edited on 15/7/2003 by gwendeth]

[Edited on 15/7/2003 by gwendeth]
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
quantumkitty2003
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: July 14, 2003 04:37
To be or not to be, that is the question.
No egor ú-no, sen annin drastol.
To be or not to be, this to me [is] troubliing.


I'd use "enni." And since "sen" is only attested as an adjective, maybe you could say "nauth hen" for "this thought."

Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
Ae nâ anvrand vi nauth bronio
If it is nobler in thought to endure


I'm not sure if you have to use "is" here.

the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
i chedlaith a pilinn o 'elu alvauglannen,
the slings and arrows of fortune unconstrained,


I wouldn't use "o" here. It is not a genitival word. Since there's no "of the" here, you can just leave out the genitival article. I'd also use "amarth" for "fate."

or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
egor dagro dan ngaear o naeth,
or to make war againast [a] sea of troubles,


Same thing here about "o." I'd just leave it out here.

and by opposing, end them.
a maethad în, tôg în na veth .
and [in] fighting them, bring them to [an] end.


"Na" is defined as "with, by," so I think it might be used for instrumental - what you use to do something, or the reason why something happens. I wouldn't use the present tense here; it's part of a list of infinitives. "În" is a possessive pronoun. You could use "hain" here.

As always, take my advice for what it's worth!
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: July 15, 2003 05:01

"Na" is defined as "with, by," so I think it might be used for instrumental - what you use to do something, or the reason why something happens. I wouldn't use the present tense here; it's part of a list of infinitives. "În" is a possessive pronoun. You could use "hain" here.


Le hannon for your comments... In going back over some of my notes, I saw a recommendation that "na" /"na'n" = 'to' when talking about direction, and "an" / " 'nin" - 'to/for' when talking about people or being abstract... (which this is)...
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: July 17, 2003 05:21
Here's another new poem... :blush:

As always, input/corrections/etc. are greatly appreciated!
Gwendeth

Lament for the Elves
Naergon 'nin Edhil
Lament for the Elves


The autumn leaves are falling.
I laiss lasbelin dannol.
The leaves [of] autumn [are] falling.

Softly they touch the ground,
Moe, mathar i dalaf,
Soft, they touch the ground,

Like tears upon the face of the earth.
Sui nîr erin balath e-gae
Like tears on the face of the earth.

Dry and withered, they lie undisturbed.
Pairch a thairn, caethar alvrestennin.
Dry and withered, they lie unaffected.


The birds songs are sorrowful,
Dim in glîr-i-filig
Sad [are] the songs of the birds,

Long and low they call.
Anann cenir.
[For] a long time they call.

A lament that echoes on the wind,
Naergon linnol erin gwaew,
[A] lament singing on the wind,

But no one hears their cries.
Dan al-ben lasta nallad hîn.
But no one hears crying theirs.


Forest friends are searching,
Taur-vellyn tiriol,
Forest-friends [are] looking,

Far and wide they range.
Palan-badol hîn.
Far and wide they [are] walking.

But once-walked paths are now forsaken.,
Dan raid bennin io anann ewerthennin si,
But roads walked long ago [are] forsaken now,

The forest lands are empty.
Cyfn i daur-dhýr,
Empty [are] the forest-lands.


For years uncounted they shared their joys;
An idhrinn arnediad, oner ammen ‘ill în;
For years uncounted, they gave to us joys theirs;

They sang and danced beneath our boughs.
Linner a cemmir na 'lír nu 'ylf vín.
they sang and they leaped to songs under branches ours.

They shared their hopes, and dreams, and laughter,
Oner amdir în, ah elei, a lalaith,
They gave hopes theirs, and dreams, and laughter,

They wandered o'er our mountain paths.
Revianner bo teraig vín.
They wandered on mountain-paths ours.


What great longing overcame them,
Man anírad dhaer ren orthannen,
What desiring great [has] mastered them,

Reaching through the forest skies?
Rathol athra trî menel en-daur?
Reaching through [the] sky of the forest?

What great Voice has called them thither,
Man Lam dhaer cannen adhren,
What Voice great [has] called to them,

Taking them away from us?
Mabel ren chaeron?
Taking them far?


Empty paths and silent winds,
Raid gyfn a gwaew dhínin,
Pathways empty and winds silent,

Falling leaves and lonely years;
Laiss dhannol ah idhrinn eryb;
Leaves falling and years lonely;

No one now to hear our voices,
Al-ben si lastol lammath vín,
No one now [is] hearing voices ours,

Gone are the Elves, our forest friends.
Gwennin in Edhil, taur-vellyn vín.
Departed [are] the Elves, forest-friends ours.

LE HANNON AD, MAL!!!

[Edited on 18/7/2003 by gwendeth]

[Edited on 18/7/2003 by gwendeth]

[Edited on 18/7/2003 by gwendeth]
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: July 17, 2003 08:51
A Gwendeth! Gûren nalla ir laston i phith vain lín! *sniff* I love sad poetry and you do it so beautifully! May I "Quenyanize" this one?

The autumn leaves are falling.
I laiss lasbelin dhannol.
The leaves [of] autumn [are] falling.
**Should 'dannol' be pluralized?
//I wouldn´t lenit "dannol" when it's used as a predicate (verb) "leaves are falling", only when it's used as an attribute (adjective) "the falling leaves". At least for now, active participles don´t seem to have plural forms.

Like tears upon the face of the earth.
Sui nîr erin thîr uin gae
Like tears on the face of the earth.
//It seems to me that maybe only English can use "face" = "surface", so I would use "palath" in Sindarin. I understand "the face of the earth" as a genitival phrase, so would suggest the genitive article "en" instead of "uin".

The birds songs are sorrowful,
I nglîr-en-filig dhim,
The songs of the birds [are] sad,
//Nasal mutation of words in "gl-" is diiferent from those in just "g-", so in+glîr > in glîr. "birds" is plural, so it would be "in" in the genitival phrase as well. And it could be a nice compromise to put the adjective first since it's preceded by "are" so I think I´d put this as "Dim in glîr-i-filig

Long and low they call.
An lû and cenir.
For [a] time long they call.
//"Anann" would mean "for a long time".

A lament that echoes on the wind,
Naergon linol erin gwaew,
[A] lament singing on the wind,
-or-
Naergon hain glamor erin gwaew,
Lament theirs [is an] echo on the wind,
** I wasn't quite sure which translation sounded better!
//I prefer the first one - it´s shorter and fits the rhythm better and "glamor" is too like "glam" to sound nice to me. Just personal taste, of course. Check spelling of "linnol". I´m not too sure about the preposition - "erin" might not be the best choice here... but I don´t know what to suggest either

But no one hears their cries.
Dan al-ben lasta nallad hain.
But no one hears crying theirs.
//Doesn´t "hain" mean "them"? For "their" there are only reconstructed "rîn" and "hîn", I think.

Forest friends are searching,
Toer-vellyn tiriol,
Forest-friends [are] looking,
**I also wasn't quite sure how to put 'forest friends'...
//Perhaps unnecessary to pluralize "forest"?

Far and wide they range.
Palan-dirir padol.
Far and wide they [are] walking.
//I think the literal translation of this might be "far and wide they see walking", so if you don´t want the "see" part, it might be better to just attach "palan-" to "padol".

But once-walked paths are now forsaken.,
Dan er-bennin lonnath ewerthennin si,
But once-walked pathways [are] forsaken now,
//I´m unsure about using "er" for "once"... perhaps "io anann" would do? "Paths walked long ago..."? Maybe "râd" is a better word for a path in a forest, since "lond" seems to have to do with the sea?

The forest lands are empty.
I thoer-dhýr gyfn,
The forest-lands [are] empty.
**Same question on 'forest lands'!
//I suggest putting "cyfn" first in the sentence and not pluralize "taur". Sorry, know too little about compounds to be of more help here

For years uncounted they shared their joys;
An idhrinn arnediad, trenerir ammen ‘ill în;
For years uncounted, they told to us joys theirs;
**I wasn't sure if 'trenar-' or 'nara-' or 'ped-' would be best to use for "sharing" in this sense. *sigh*
//And I´m not sure if "an" can be used for "for" when it means "during"...I think I´d use "ned". "trenar-" is "tre"+"nara" > "through-tell" (complete the "telling") if that is any help in choosing the word you prefer. Or maybe use "anna-" to have them "give" their joy, which might be closer to "share" than just "tell about". But only you know how you intend this

They shared their hopes, and dreams, and laughter,
Trenerir heraid în, ah elei, a lalaith,
They told hopes theirs, and dreams, and laughter,
//"herthaid" I think. I take it you didn´t want to have to choose between "amdir" and "estel"?

They wandered o'er our mountain paths.
Revianner bo toer-lonnath vín.
They wandered on mountain-paths ours.
//Perhaps "râd" for path? Or "tarag" which means "steep mountain path"? If you keep the compound I think you want it to begin with "orod-"

What great longing overcame them,
Man anírad dhaer orthannen ren,
What desiring great [has] mastered them,
//I´d place "ren" before "orthannen"

Reaching through the forest skies?
Lodad athra i menil-en-doer?
Floating across the skies of the forest?
//"lodol" (participle) in this case, I believe. Or perhaps "rathol trî menel en-daur" (reaching through the sky of the forest)? ("ratha-" is neoS)

What great Voice has called them thither,
Man Lam dhaer nallannen adhren,
What Voice great [has] called to them,
//Maybe "can-" is better for "call".

Taking them away from us?
Mabed ren chaeron?
Taking them far?
//"taking" is a participle here, so "mabel".

Falling leaves and lonely years;
Laiss dhannol ah idhrinn eryb;
Leaves falling and years lonely;
**Same question on 'dannol' here!!!
//Same answer - no plural!

Gone are the Elves, our forest friends.
Gwennin in Edhil, toer-vellyn vín.
Departed [are] the Elves, forest-friends ours
//I´d use singular "taur".
gwendeth
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: July 18, 2003 12:36
Le hannon, Mal!!! Pith lín gerir ind dhaerwain amin! :heart:

Please do translate it into Quenya! I can't wait to see it!

You have some great ideas on this!

I had really wondered about pluralizing 'taur'. In fact, I had just decided to edit it and singularize it!

The compound words drive me batty, too. Maybe Gildor will have a section on them in the 'Advanced' lessons!!!

I had totally forgotten 'anann' for 'a long time'! :dizzy:

I had really preferred the first version on that one line, too...

And as for 'herthad', 'amdir' and 'estel' - you're right... I had debated between the three of them, but now I think about it, one of the last two will be better.

*** One quick question: Should 'pennin' be lenited?

"Dan raid pennin (bennin?) io anann ewerthennin si."

[Edited on 18/7/2003 by gwendeth]

[Edited on 18/7/2003 by gwendeth]

[Edited on 18/7/2003 by gwendeth]
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: July 18, 2003 08:12

*** One quick question: Should 'pennin' be lenited?
"Dan raid pennin (bennin?) io anann ewerthennin si."

IMO, yes. It is used as an attribute ("adjective") to describe the subject "paths". Contrast "paths are walked" (probably not English, but I hope the point is clear anyway) , where "pennin" would be a predicate ("verb") and not lenited.
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