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Malinornë
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 08, 2003 02:34
Suilad Lalaithian!
I´ve been wondering too! Thanks for giving an answer, and in such a beautiful way! This is my favourite thread! Some comments:

The Lay of Legolas at the Death of Boromir
Glîr Legolas Na Gurth Boromir
//na+gurth > na ngurth (special cases mutation)

Ah, see the man die,
Ai, tiro i adan gwanna,
//I´d use the active participle “gwannol” here

With strong arms and wielding his sword,
Na rainc vell lang mathad in,
// “vell” needs to be pluralised because of the plural subject “rainc”. The adjectival active participle “mathol” fits better than the gerund here. Check spelling of “în”.
I´d also change the word order to “Na rainc vill a mathol lang în”.

To go to earth and darkness.
Bedi an amar a dûath.
//I don´t understand very well what you want to say here... if this is a continuation of the first line “see the man die... (and) go to earth” I´d use the active participle (badel) again. If not it seeems to me that the gerund (baded) would fit better than the infinitive. I´d use “na” for “to” when talking about direction (location). Check spelling of “dúath”.

Will his spirit arise
Eriatha mân in
//”his” would be “dín” in this case.

And go to the Halls of Manwë?
A bedi in Them Manwë?
//I´d use “nan” for “to the”. Plural of “tham” would be “thaim”.

To this I have no answer.
An sen gerin ú-dambeth.
//I´d put the negation on the verb instead > ú-erin
I´m hesitant as to whether “sen” can be used as a independent word, but if it can it would mutate an+sen>as sen. I´d prefer to put in some noun, perhaps “To this thought...” (An nauth hen...) and use “sen” as an “adjective”.

I hope some of these comments will be of help.
ElhaymGreenleaf
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 08, 2003 07:03
Great poems! I love them all!!!!!
Mellon
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 09, 2003 04:56
Suilad
This is the first piece of "poety" that I have tried to translate into Sindarin. It is actually a song from the Maine Renaissance Faire, and I took no part in writing the lyrics. The translation and re-wording afterwards I did do. So here goes...

I’ve been a wild rover for many a year
Nannen randi prêg an idhrin
I was wanderer wild for years

and I spent all me money on whiskey and beer
A iuithannen pân mirian nín bo ___ a ____
And I used all money my on ____ and ____

and now I’m returning with gold in great store
A si im dolen dan na eryd-en-glaur
And now I’m coming back with mountains-of-gold

and I never will play the wild rover no more
A u-deliathon i randi prêg ad
And not-play-will-I the wanderer wild again

and it’s no, nay, never
A na law, law, law
And it’s not, not, not

no, nay, never no more will I play the wild rover
Law, law, law ad deliathon i randi prêg
No, no, no again play-will-I the wanderer wild

not never no more.
Law law law ad.
not not not again.

This is only a first attempt, so PLEASE point out the mistakes. Thanks so much!

~Mellon~

P.S. for those of you who see my post in the "Questions of Eager Learners" thread about where to post poems, that was before I found this.
Malinornë
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 09, 2003 06:20
Whoa Mellon - that was a brave choice of lyrics! This song is of Irish origin, I think. For now, just some quick ideas on the troublesome drinks... perhaps "fire-water" could convey the idea of "whiskey"? And for "beer" it might be possible to use "miruvor", a Quenya word translated as "mead" which is fairly close.
gwendeth
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 09, 2003 12:27
Ok folks, I was asked by a friend to translate this into Sindarin... It's short, but it's giving me FITS!!!

I've done the best I can, but I KNOW it's not right...

** For one thing, since it seems preferable to avoid using "aen", I've used "Aniron" "I wish" instead of "May"... If there's something better, please let me know!!!

I know I'm not totally comfortable with what I've come up with!!! :cry:

Le hannon!!! Gwendeth

An Irish Blessing

May the road rise to meet you
Erio i râd lr suilannad
May-it-rise the road you to-meet

May the wind be always at your back
[bSirio i ‘waew an-uir adel le[/b]
May-it-flow the wind [be] forever behind you

May the rain fall soft upon your fields
Danno i ross voe am pairth lín
May-it-fall the rain soft upon fields yours

And may you be held safe in His hand
Ah anno E iaun le vi cam în
And [may] give He sanctuary to you in hand his

[Edited on 9/6/2003 by gwendeth]

[Edited on 10/6/2003 by gwendeth]

[Edited on 10/6/2003 by gwendeth]

[Edited on 10/6/2003 by gwendeth]

[Edited on 10/6/2003 by gwendeth]
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
Naneth
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 09, 2003 05:53
Gwendeth, in Sindarin "may" is actually shown by using the imperative of the verb you are using. Here is an example:

May the Haflings live long !!
Cuio i Pheriain anann !!

May the road rise to greet you ...
Erio i râd le suilannad.
gwendeth
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 10, 2003 12:00
AHA!! (The light goes on!!!) Le hannon!

Ok, I've reworded it some.... I'm still not sure about some of the other sentence structures, though...



[Edited on 10/6/2003 by gwendeth]
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
Naneth
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 10, 2003 03:03
You've done a great job here Gwendeth !! I only have a few suggestions:

May the road rise to meet you
Erio i râd as suilanno
May-it-rise the road you to-meet
>>>> In Sindarin it seems the "gerund" is used in place of the infinitive, so I would use "suilannad" for "to meet"; I would use formal "le" for "you"

May the wind be always at your back
Aniron i ‘waew an-uir adel le
I-wish the wind [be] forever behind you
>>>> You may want to use "sirio" (flow) for the verb imperative here

-- what about this line? there's no "actual" verb in it???

May the rain fall soft upon your fields
Danno i ross voe am pairth lín
May-it-fall the rain soft upon fields yours


And may you be held safe in His hand
Ah anno E iaun an le ne cham în
And [may] give He sanctuary to you in hand his
>>>> "le" by itself can mean "to you", so I would drop the "an"; use "vi" for "in" and then don't lenit "cam" (ned is used for "in" when you are talking about time)
gwendeth
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 10, 2003 04:52
LE HANNON!!!

"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
Naneth
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 10, 2003 06:36
Mellon, this is a nice job on your first poem translation !! It does have some difficult wording in it though !! I would use the words that Malinornë suggests and here are a few more of my own suggestions:

I’ve been a wild rover for many a year
Nannen randi prêg an idhrin
I was wanderer wild for years
>>>> Randír vrêg im, an idhrinn arnediad
>>>> Wild wanderer I, for countless years

and I spent all me money on whiskey and beer
A iuithannen pân mirian nín bo ___ a ____
And I used all money my on ____ and ____
>>>> viriain would be plural for "coins" and lenited as the direct object; pluralize "pân" to "pain"; "am miruvor a nornen" (naur + nen = nornen) .... for mead and firewater

and now I’m returning with gold in great store
A si im dolen dan na eryd-en-glaur
And now I’m coming back with mountains-of-gold
>>>> adolel (ad + tolel = returning); "mountains of gold" isn't really a genitival relationship ... I would rather say "eryd vallen"

and I never will play the wild rover no more
A u-deliathon i randi prêg ad
And not-play-will-I the wanderer wild again
>>>> "randír" would be wanderer; "brêg" would be lenited to "vrêg"

and it’s no, nay, never
A na law, law, law
And it’s not, not, not
>>>> I really dislike the use of "law", but it seems like you have no choice here ..... I would leave "na" out though

no, nay, never no more will I play the wild rover
Law, law, law ad deliathon i randi prêg
No, no, no again play-will-I the wanderer wild
>>>> I wouldn't lenit "teliathon" following "ad"; "i randír vrêg" would be "wild wanderer"

not never no more.
Law law law ad.
not not not again.
gwendeth
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 10, 2003 10:57
Boy, we're keeping you guys busy now aren't we?

I have been attempting to translate the "Lament for Boromir" into Sindarin.... :blush:
However, I'm only going to post it one verse at a time, otherwise it would be WAY too long!!!

Anyway, here's "Verse 1"!!! Le hannon!

Lament for Boromir
Naergon am Moromir

Aragorn started:
Heriant Aragorn:

Through Rohan over fen and field where the long grass grows
Trî Rohan or lô a talf ias gala i thar and
Through Rohan over fenland and field where grows the grass long

The West Wind comes walking, and about the walls it goes.
I 'Waew Annui tôl padol, a os-revia idh raim.
The Wind Western comes walking, and flies around the walls.

"What news from the West, O wandering wind, do you bring to me tonight?
"Man siniath uin Dûn, Ai gwaew reviol, tegich enni fuin hen?
"What news from-the-West, O wind wandering, do-you-bring to-me night this?

* I like the reviol better too!!!

Have you seen Boromir the Tall by moon or by starlight?"
Cennich Voromir i Dond na ithil egor na 'ilgalad?"
Have-you-seen Boromir the tall by moon or by starlight?"

* I knew that! Darn fingers!

"I saw him ride over seven streams, over waters wide and grey;
E cennin nôr or chelyn odog, or nîn laind a mithrin,
He I-saw ride over streams seven, over waters wide and grey,

I saw him walk in empty lands, until he passed away
E cennin pada vi dýr gyfn, na-den e gwannant
He I-saw walk in lands empty, until he-departed

Into the shadows of the North. I saw him then no more.
Nan dúath e-Forod. E ú-gennin ad.
To-the shadows of-the North. He I see not again.

* fingeritis again!
* Somewhere I missed about "ú-" being only attached to verbs. :blush:

The North Wind may have heard the horn of the son of Denethor."
Agor i 'Waew Fuir lasta i rom Denethorion?"
Did the Wind North hear the horn of Denethor's son?"

* Yeah, this line is a HARD one... The only other thing I could think of was to (possibly) turn it into a question.

"O Boromir! From the high walls westward I looked afar,
Ai Boromir! Uin raim vraind nan ndûn palan-dirnin,
O Boromir! From-the walls high to-the west I-looked far,

But you came not from the empty lands where no men are."
Dan ú-dellich uin dýr gyfn ias edain û-dhorthar."
But you-came-not from-the lands empty where men don't dwell.


[Edited on 11/6/2003 by gwendeth]

[Edited on 11/6/2003 by gwendeth]

[Edited on 11/6/2003 by gwendeth]

[Edited on 11/6/2003 by gwendeth]
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
Iavas
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 10, 2003 02:41
Good job, Gwendeth! I just have a few suggestions and ideas.

Lament for Boromir
Naergon e Voromir
**Naergon am Moromir - I would use "an" for "for" and this causes nasal mutation.

Aragorn started:
Heriant Aragorn:

Through Rohan over fen and field where the long grass grows
Trî Rohan or îo a talf mas gala I thar and
Through Rohan over fenland and field where grows the grass long
***Trî Rohan or lô a talf ias gala i thar and - Spelling of "lô" and I would use "ias" instead of "mas" for "where". "Mas" is interrogative.

The West Wind comes walking, and about the walls it goes.
I 'Waew Dhûn tôl padol, a os-i-raim revia.
The Wind West comes walking, and around-the-walls it-flies.
***I 'Waew Annui tôl padol, a os-revia idh raim. - I used "annui" for "western" as I felt it needed to be an adjective rather than a noun. "os-" is a prefix so it has to be attached to something. I attached it to the verb here. Use the plural article "in" with plural "walls" which causes nasal mutation. It translates more as "The Western Wind comes walking, and flies around the walls" now.

"What news from the West, O wandering wind, do you bring to me tonight?
"Man siniath e-Dûn, Ai gwaew mistol, tegich amin fuin hen?
"What news from-the-West, O wind straying, do-you-bring to-me night this?
***"Man siniath uin Nûn, Ai gwaew reviol, tegich enni fuin hen? - I would use "uin" for "from the" instead of the genitival "en". "Dûn" is one of the words derived from "nd" so it mutates according to the very bottom of the chart. I would also suggest "reviol" for "wandering" instead of "straying". That's just my personal preference and either would work. "Enni" is "to me". "Anim" is "for myself".

Have you seen Boromir the Tall by moon or by starlight?"
Cennich Voromir i tond na ithil egor na 'ilgalad?"
Have-you-seen Boromir the tall by moon or by starlight?"
***"Cennich Voromir i Dond na ithil egor na 'ilgalad?" - Just lenit "tond" following the article.

"I saw him ride over seven streams, over waters wide and grey;
E cennin nôr or chlelyn odog, or nên lind a mithrin,
He I-saw ride over streams seven, over waters wide and grey,
***"E cennin nôr or chelyn odog, or nîn laind a mithrin, - Spelling of "streams" and the plural form of "nên" is "nîn". Pluralize "wide" to agree with "waters".

I saw him walk in empty lands, until he passed away
E cennin pada vi dýr gyfn, ir gwannant
He I-saw walk in lands empty, when he-departed
***E cennin pada vi dyr gyfn, na-den e gwannant - "na-den" is a reconstruction for "until". I think I would use the pronoun "e" for "he" here.

Into the shadows of the North. I saw him then no more.
Ne dúath e-Forod. E cennin ú-uir hen.
Into-the shadoes of-the-North. Him I-saw not-ever then.
***Nan dúath e-Forod. E ú-gennin ad. - I would use "nan" for "to the" since "ned" is used with time. The prefix "ú-" is only attested attached to verbs, so I attached it to your verb and used "ad" for "again". It translates more as "to the shadows of the North. He I see not again.

The North Wind may have heard the horn of the son of Denethor."
Lasto i 'Waew Forod i rom en îon o Denethor."
[May] It-hear the Wind North the horn of-the son of Denethor."
*** This one is tricky because I feel the original sentence expresses a possibility, while your translation expresses a wish for the Wind. Does that make any sense? Let me think on this one a bit and I'll come back to it. <<
"Agor i 'Waew Fuir lasta i rom Denethorion?" "Did the north wind hear the horn of Denethor's son?" I also used the adjective for "north" here and used word order for the genitival phrase and the ending for son.


"O Boromir! From the high walls westward I looked afar,
Ai Boromir! Uin rem vrand na nûn tirnen hae,
O Boromir! From-the walls high to-the west I-looked far,
***Ai Boromir! Uin raim vraind nan ndûn palan-dirnin, - Plural for "walls" is "raim" and I pluralized "high" to agree with it. I used "nan" for "to the" and mutated "dûn" according to the special cases rules. I used the prefix "palan-" for "far" because I think we need an adverb here.

But you came not from the empty lands where no men are."
Dan ú-diriannech e-dýr gyfn mas darthar û-edain."
But you-came-noe from-the lands empty where they-dwell no-men.
***Dan ú-dellich uin dyr gyfn ias edain ú-dhorthar - I used the past tense here for "come" and "uin" for "from the". "Ias" for "where" instead of the interrogative "mas". I attached the "ú-" prefix to the verb and lenited "dorthar". I also used the plural pronominal ending because "men" is plural. It would translate more as "But you came not from the empty lands where men don't dwell." Or, "dwell not".

Hope this is helpful!
Iavas


____________________


[Edited on 11/6/2003 by Iavas]
gwendeth
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 10, 2003 03:51
Le hannon!!! Those comments are really helpful!!!

I just get mad at myself when I forget the plurals and "fingeritis" on the typos!

"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
Iavas
rochvellon
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 10, 2003 04:13
Just a couple more updates!
The West Wind comes walking, and about the walls it goes.
I 'Waew Dhûn tôl padol, a os-revia idh raim.
The Wind West comes walking, and flies around the walls.

I've made another suggestion for this line. Please see my edited previous comments!
I saw him walk in empty lands, until he passed away
E cennin pada vi dýr gyfn, na-den e gwannant
He I-saw walk in lands empty, when he-departed

Remember that "na-den" is "until". You might want to change your english translation to agree with it.
Into the shadows of the North. I saw him then no more.
Nan dúath e-Forod. E û-gennin ad.
To-the shadows of-the North. He I see not again.

Remember that it is an accent instead of a circumflex on "ú-" also.
The North Wind may have heard the horn of the son of Denethor."
Lasto i 'Waew Forod i rom en îon o Denethor."
[May] It-hear the Wind North the horn of-the son of Denethor."

* Yeah, this line is a HARD one... The only other thing I could think of was to (possibly) turn it into a question.

You were right on track with turning it into a question! See revised comments!
"O Boromir! From the high walls westward I looked afar,
Ai Boromir! Uin raim vraind nan ndûn palan-dirnen,
O Boromir! From-the walls high to-the west I-looked far,

Just a typo here on "palan-dirnin".
gwendeth
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 10, 2003 05:01
LE HANNON to you and Naneth!!! I like it when I'm at least on the right track!!!

"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
Mellon
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 11, 2003 04:55
Thanks so much, Naneth and Malinornë!

Okay, with the suggestions, here is the "new and improved" version:

I've been a wild rover for many a year
Randír vrêg im, an idhrinn arnediad
Wild wandererI, for countless years

And I spent all me money on whiskey and beer
A iuithannen pain viriain nín am miruvor a nornen
And I used all money my for mead and fire water

And now I’m returning with gold in great store
A si im adolel dan na eryd vallen
And now I’m returning with mountains [of] gold

and I never will play the wild rover no more
A u-deliathon i Randír vrêg ad
And not-play-will-I the wanderer wild again

and it’s no, nay, never
A law, law, law
And [it’s] not, not, not

no, nay, never no more will I play the wild rover
Law, law, law ad teliathon i randír vrêg
No, no, no again play-will-I the wanderer wild

not never no more.
Law law law ad.
not not not again.

Again, thank you SO much for all the help!

~Mellon~
gwendeth
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 11, 2003 05:42
Ok - here's verse 2 of "Lament for Boromir".... I did some rewording based on the comments from the first verse - hopefully I got them right!!!

Then Legolas sang:
Linnant Legolas:

From the mouths of the Sea the South Wind flies, from the sandhills and the stones;
Uin ethir e-gaearon revia i 'Waew charadren, uin lith-dynd ah i sairn;
From-the mouths of-the Sea flies the Wind South, from-the sandhills and the stones;

The wailing of the gulls it bears, and at the gate it moans.
I nalled i maew ha gâr, a na i annon ha nalla.
The crying of-the gulls it holds, and at the gate it-cries.

"What news from the South O sighing wind, do you bring to me at eve?
Man siniath uin Harad Ai gwaew nallol, tegich enni na thin?
What news from-the South O wind crying, you-bring to-me at eve?

Where now is Boromir the Fair? He tarries and I grieve."
Ias si Boromir i Vain? e ú-dôl a im dhem.
Where now [is] Boromir the Fair? He comes-not and I [am] sad.

"Ask not of me where he doth dwell -- so many bones there lie
Ú-bedo enni o ias e dortha -- edain arnediad ennas caethar
Do-not-speak to-me of where he dwells -- men innumerable there lie

On the white shores and the dark shores under the stormy sky.
Erin felais 'lain ah i felais vyrn nuin menel chwiniol.
On-the shores white and the shores dark under sky whirling.

So many have passed down Anduin to find the flowing Sea.
Gwaith arnediad gwanner dad Anduin farad i 'aear hiriol.
People uncounted have-passed down Anduin hunting the Sea flowing.

Ask of the North Wind news of them the North Wind sends to me!"
Pedo uin 'Waew Fuin siniath o hain i 'Waew Fuin tôg ad enni!"
Speak of-the Wind Northern news of them the Wind North brings back to-me!"

"O Boromir! Beyond the gate the seaward road runs south,
Ai Boromir! Athan i annon i râd bâd nan harad nan aear,
O Boromir! Beyond-[the]-gate the road runs south to the sea,

But you came not with the wailing gulls from the grey sea's mouth."
Dan ú-‘dellich na i vaew nelliel uin ethir vithren en-aear.
But you-came-not with the gulls crying from the mouth of the grey sea.



[Edited on 11/6/2003 by gwendeth]

[Edited on 11/6/2003 by gwendeth]

[Edited on 11/6/2003 by gwendeth]

[Edited on 11/6/2003 by gwendeth]
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
Iavas
rochvellon
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 11, 2003 07:36
Here are a few comments and suggestions!

Then Legolas sang:
Linnant Legoas hen:
**Typo on Legolas. "Sen" is "this" so maybe just drop it off and have "Legolas sang".

From the mouths of the Sea the South Wind flies, from the sandhills and the stones;
Uin lammath e-gaearon revia i 'Waew Charad, uin lithdynd ah in sirn;
From-the mouths of-the Sea flies the Wind South, from-the sandhills and the stones;
***Uin ethir e-gaearon revia i 'Waew charadren, uin lith-dynd ah i sairn; Maybe "ethir" for "mouths" as "lamath" means "echoing voices" and "lam" means "physical tongue" or "language". I would suggest "haradren" for "southern" as I feel it needs to be an adjective. You might want to hyphenate "lith-dynd". Plural of "sarn" is "sairn".

The wailing of the gulls it bears, and at the gate it moans.
I ganed uin výl nâ gyll, a na annon nalla.
The wailing of-the gulls it-is [the] bearer, and at [the] gate it-moans.
***I nalled i maew ha gâr, a na i annon ha nalla. The crying of the gulls it holds, and at the gate it crys.
How about just "crying" instead of "crying out, shouting"? "Nalled" is "crying". It is genitival so use "in" here. I used "maew" for "gulls" simply because I can't make a circumflex over a "y" on my computer. I used "it holds" instead of using "is". Any form of "to be" is avoided in Sindarin if possible.

"What news from the South O sighing wind, do you bring to me at eve?
Man siniath ne Charad Ai gwaew nallad, tôg enni ne thinnu?
What news out-of-the South O wind sighing, do-you-bring to-me at evening?
***Man siniath uin Harad, Ai gwaew nallol, tegich enni na thin? "What news from the South, O crying wind, you bring to me at evening?"
"uin" is "from the". You need the present participle for "crying" to use it as an adjective rather than the gerund. "You bring" is "tegich". "Na" for "at" and "thin" for "evening". I couldn't find "thinnu".


Where now is Boromir the Fair? He tarries and I grieve."
Ias hi Voromir i vain? Ú-dôl a im dhem.
Where now [is] Boromir the fair? He-does-not-come and I [am] sad.
***Mas si Boromir i Vain? E ú-dôl a im dhem. Where now [is] Boromir the Fair? He comes not and I [am] sad.
"Mas" is interrogative for "where". I wouldn't lenit "now" or "Boromir" in this case. I added the pronoun "E" for "he".


"Ask not of me where he doth dwell -- so many bones there lie
Ú-bedo enni ias e dortha -- edain arnediad ennas darthad
Do-not-speak to-me [of] where he dwells -- men uncounted there [are] laying
***Ú-bedo enni o ias e dortha - edain arnediad ennas caethar Speak not to me of where he dwells - men innumerable there lie
I just added "o" for "of" here and the reconstructed verb "caetha-" for "lie".

On the white shores and the dark shores under the stormy sky.
Erin felais 'lain ah i felais vyrn nu venel chwiniol.
On-the shores white and the shores dark under sky whirling.
***Erin felais 'lain ah i felais yvrn nuin menel chwiniol.
"under the" is "nuin" and therefore I unlenited "menel".

So many have passed down Anduin to find the flowing Sea.
Gwaith arnediad gwanner dad Anduin farad i 'aear siriol.
People uncounted have-passed down Anduin hunting the Sea flowing.
***Just lenit "siriol" to "hiriol".

Ask of the North Wind news of them the North Wind sends to me!"
Pedo uin 'Waew Fuin siniath o hain i 'Waew Forod tôg ad enni!"
Speak of-the Wind Northern news of them the Wind North brings back to-me!"
***"Fuin" for "Northern" on the second "north wind".

"O Boromir! Beyond the gate the seaward road runs south,
Ai Boromir! Tharannon i râd ýr charad na i’aear,
O Boromir! Beyond-[the]-gate the road runs south to the sea,
***Ai Boromir! Athan i annon i râd bâd nan harad nan aear. O Boromir! Beyond the gate the road goes to the south to the sea. - I used "athan" for "beyond" here because it is less complicated. I also think "goes" is a better choice than "runs" simply because I think "ýr" means to actually physically run. "Harad" is a noun as opposed to an adverb so I reworded a little to make it work.

But you came not with the wailing gulls from the grey sea's mouth."
Dan ú-‘odellich na i výl gennin 'nin 'aear lam vithrin.
But you-did-not-come-with (together) the gulls wailing from-the sea mouth grey.
***Dan ú-dellich na i vaew nelliel uin ethir vithren en-aear. But you came not with the crying gulls from the mouth of the grey sea. - Again I used "crying" because I think of it more like actual "crying" instead of "calling out". "From the" is "uin". I used "ethir" for "mouth" as "lam" means "physical tongue". I used the genitival phrase "mouth of the sea" to show possession and put the adjective behind "mouth" because it describes the "mouth" not the "sea". I also made it singular again for that reason.
gwendeth
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 11, 2003 09:30
Le hannon! Hopefully I've got those corrections in right!!!
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 11, 2003 10:19
Just a few more little things I noticed!
"What news from the South O sighing wind, do you bring to me at eve?
Man siniath uin Harad Ai gwaew nallol, tegich enni ne thin?
What news from-the South O wind crying, you-bring to-me at eve?

Typo on "na thin". "Na" is "at".
* I didn't know there was a reconstructed verb for "lie"!

There are actually two. One by RD and one by Salo.
"O Boromir! Beyond the gate the seaward road runs south,
Ai Boromir! Athan i annon i râd bâd; nan harad nan aear,
O Boromir! Beyond-[the]-gate the road runs south to the sea,

You have a semicolon in between "goes" and "to the" that you might want to take out!
gwendeth
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 11, 2003 11:17
* I didn't know there was a reconstructed verb for "lie"!

There are actually two. One by RD and one by Salo.


AAAhhh.... I learn something new every day!!!

Also - THIS time, with Verse 3, I noted where I had specific questions about what I should use... But I'm sure there's more wrong!!!

Then Aragorn sang again:
Linnant Aragorn ad:

From the Gate of Kings the North Wind rides, and past the roaring falls;
Uin Annon Erain i 'Waew fuin nôr, a os-vâd lenthir vrui a rimmol;
From-the Gate of Kings the Wind northern rides, and goes around [the] waterfalls loud and flowing-like-a-torrent ;

And clear and cold about the tower its loud horn calls.
A lim a ring rom dín vrui os-nalla i vinas.
And clear and cold its loud horn calls around the tower.

"What news from the North, O mighty wind, do you bring to me today?
Man siniath uin Forod, A gwaew veleg, tegich enni sír?
What news from-the North, O wind mighty, do-you-bring to-me today?

What news of Boromir the Bold? For he is long away."
Man siniath o Voromir i Veren? An e ú-dhôl."
What news of Boromir the Bold? For he does-not-come."

"Beneath Amon Hen I heard his cry. There many foes he fought.
"Nu Amon Hen lastannen nallad dín. Ennas gyth arnediad e maethant.
Beneath-Amon Hen I-heard cry his. There enemies unnumbered he-fought.

His cloven shield, his broken sword, they to the water brought.
Thand narchannen dín , vagol ristannen dín , na nen tyngir.
Shield rent his, sword cut his, to-the-water they-brought.

His head so proud, his face so fair, his limbs they laid to rest;
Dhôl dín chall, thîr dín vain, rainc dín a tail hodanner na îdh;
His head exalted, his face fair, his arms and feet they-laid to rest;

And Rauros, golden Rauros-falls, bore him upon its breast."
A Rauros, Rauros valthen, tunc am 'ûr.
And Rauros, Rauros golden, brought him upon [its] heart.

"O Boromir! The Tower of Guard shall ever northward gaze
Ai Boromir! Minas Tirith nan forod tiritha an-uir.
O Boromir! The Tower [of] Guard to-the north will-look forever.

To Rauros, golden Rauros-falls, until the end of days."
Na Rauros, Rauros valthen, na-den tôl i veth in-aur ."
To Rauros, Rauros golden, until comes the end of days."


[Edited on 12/6/2003 by gwendeth]

[Edited on 12/6/2003 by gwendeth]

[Edited on 12/6/2003 by gwendeth]

[Edited on 13/6/2003 by gwendeth]

[Edited on 15/6/2003 by gwendeth]
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
Malinornë
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 11, 2003 06:48
Suilad Gwendeth! I just realized I should hurry up translating my favourite Tolkien poems before they´re all "taken"
Just a tiny piece of advice - I think "the Tower of Guard" mentioned here is the English translation of Minas Tirith, so that´s what I would use in Sindarin.
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 12, 2003 12:55
Suilad Gwendeth! I just realized I should hurry up translating my favourite Tolkien poems before they´re all "taken"
Just a tiny piece of advice - I think "the Tower of Guard" mentioned here is the English translation of Minas Tirith, so that´s what I would use in Sindarin.


I figured that someone had already done this one, but I'd try it anyway - and I hadn't connected "Tower of Guard" with Minas Tirith"! Duh!!!

Le hannon!
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
Malinornë
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 12, 2003 04:16
Hi again...just some more things I noticed (I´m at work, waiting for the bus home, so no dictionary or charts = not very full comments)

From the Gate of Kings the North Wind rides, and past the roaring falls;
Uin Annor o Erain i 'Waew fuin nôr, a os-vâd lenthir vrui a reminnen*;
From-the Gate of Kings the Wind northern rides, and goes around [the] waterfalls loud and flowing-like-a-torrent ;

//Again, I believe "o" shouldn´t be used in genitival constructions - I would just write "Annon Erain" (spellcheck "annon")

And clear and cold about the tower its loud horn calls.
A lim a ring os-vinas* rom vrui ha nalla.
And clear and cold around-[the]-tower its horn loud calls.

//I´d use "dín" for "its"

"What news from the North, O mighty wind, do you bring to me today?
Man siniath uin Forod, Ai gwaew veleg, tôg enni sír?
What news from-the North, O wind mighty, do-you-bring to-me today?

//Perhaps just "a" for "o", as in "A Elbereth..."? I think "tôg" is the 3rd person sing, you need something ending in -ch but I don´t dare guessing the correct verb form, might be "tegich", but just as well something else

What news of Boromir the Bold? For he is long away."
Man siniath o Voromir i Veren? An* û-dôl."
What news of Boromir the Bold? For he-does-not-come."

//*I think "an" is OK here

"Beneath Amon Hen I heard his cry. There many foes he fought.
"DiAmon* Hen lastannen nallad chon. Ennas gyth arnediad maethant.
Beneath-Amon Hen I-heard cry his. There enemies unnumbered he-fought.

//Perhaps "dín" for his? Unless you´ve been using the "h"-pronouns in the earlier parts of the poem (I should have checked that, sorry)

His cloven shield, his broken sword, they to the water brought.
E thand narchannen* , e vagol ristannen* , en-nen dyngir.
Shield rent his, sword cut his, to-the-water they-brought.

//"E" means "he" (subject) - you need the possessive pronoun here - "dín".

His head so proud, his face so fair, his limbs they laid to rest;
E Dhôl chall, e thîr vain, e rainc a tail* dharthar;
His head exalted, his face fair, his arms and feet they-
//see previous comment on "e".

And Rauros, golden Rauros-falls, bore him upon its breast."
A Rauros, Rauros-lenthir valthen*, tyngir hon am 'ûr**.
And Rauros, Rauros-waterfalls golden, brought him upon [its] heart.

//I´d first check what "Rauros" means - perhaps it already contains a word for "waterfalls" and then "lenthir" (if that´s "falls" is not necessaray. But if you write "Rauros-lenthir" that looks plural and then "valthen" should be pluralized. Remember that you have a plural verb now, so if you choose Rauros=singular you´ll need to change that.

"O Boromir! The Tower of Guard shall ever northward gaze
Ai Boromir! I Minas Tirith nan forod cên an-uir.
O Boromir! The Tower [of] Guard to-the north looks forever.

//I´d skip the article before "Minas Tirith", but if you keep it, you need to lenit "Minas". "shall ever gaze" looks like future tense to me - "will look to the north forever".

To Rauros, golden Rauros-falls, until the end of days."
Na Rauros, Rauros-lenthir valthen*, mas tôl i veth** o aur ."
To Rauros, Rauros-waterfalls golden, when comes the end of days."

// "when" is "ir". "Man" means "what" and is used in questions - it would have been "ian" in a sentence like this.
*see earlier comment
** I think not.
Malinornë
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 12, 2003 04:25
This is what "A Tolkien Dictionary" says about Rauros:

S; roaring rain; RAW- *rau lion [Etym], related to RAB- wild, untamed [Etym]; ros foam, fine rain [Sil];

So the word looks singular to me if you use it alone, without adding a word for "falls".

http://www.quicksilver899.com/Tolkien/Tolkien_Dictionary.html
gwendeth
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 12, 2003 06:52
Ok... I think I've got those edits in correctly - just one quick question: should "dín" be lenited/mutated/etc. in those positions? I wasn't quite sure...
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
Malinornë
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 12, 2003 06:36
"dín" is already lenited from "tín", as an "adjectival" word describing a noun. Or at least that seems to be the general theory...in any case you don´t need to mutate it.

"when" in the last line should be "ir", I´m afraid my comment was a bit confusing...

[Edited on 13/6/2003 by Malinornë]
gwendeth
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 13, 2003 12:00
"dín" is already lenited from "tín", as an "adjectival" word describing a noun. Or at least that seems to be the general theory...in any case you don´t need to mutate it.


I should have remembered that! :dizzy:

Le hannon for all your help & comments!
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
Iavas
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 15, 2003 06:40
Suilad Gwendeth! I agree with Malinornë's comments and added a few of my own.

Then Aragorn sang again:
Linnant Aragorn ad:

From the Gate of Kings the North Wind rides, and past the roaring falls;
Uin Annon Erain i 'Waew fuin nôr, a os-vâd lenthir vrui a reminnen;
From-the Gate of Kings the Wind northern rides, and goes around [the] waterfalls loud and flowing-like-a-torrent ;
***I would use the present participle for "flowing like a torrent" here - "rimmol".

And clear and cold about the tower its loud horn calls.
A lim a ring os-vinas rom vrui dín nalla.
And clear and cold around-[the]-tower its horn loud calls.
***a lim a ring rom dín vrui os-nalla i vinas.
I just reworded this a bit because it isn't the tower that is "around" it's the call of the horn. I then attached the prefix to the verb. This way it also follows the same form as the previous sentence. It translates more like "and clear and cold its loud horn calls around the tower."

"What news from the North, O mighty wind, do you bring to me today?
Man siniath uin Forod, A gwaew veleg, tegich enni sír?
What news from-the North, O wind mighty, do-you-bring to-me today?

What news of Boromir the Bold? For he is long away."
Man siniath o Voromir i Veren? An û-dôl."
What news of Boromir the Bold? For he-does-not-come."
*** Accent on "ú-" and I would add "e" for "he" so "An e ú-dhôl." Lenit "dôl".

"Beneath Amon Hen I heard his cry. There many foes he fought.
"DiAmon* Hen lastannen nallad dín. Ennas gyth arnediad maethant.
Beneath-Amon Hen I-heard cry his. There enemies unnumbered he-fought.
***I think I would use "nu" here and I would add "e" for "he".
*Should this be hyphenated or would “Nu (under) Amon Hen” be better?

His cloven shield, his broken sword, they to the water brought.
Thand narchannen dín , magol ristannen dín , en-nen dyngir.
Shield rent his, sword cut his, to-the-water they-brought.
***"To the" is "nan", but I think I would just use "na" meaning "to" to avoid the double "n's". Unlenit "tyngir". I would lenit "magol" as the object of the verb "brought". So Thand narchannen dín, vagol ristannen dín, na nen tyngir.

His head so proud, his face so fair, his limbs they laid to rest;
Dôl dín chall, thîr dín vain, e rainc a tail dharthar;
His head exalted, his face fair, his arms and feet they-
***Dhôl dín chall, thîr dín vain, rainc dín a tail hodanner na îdh"his arms" would be "rainc dín" as well. I used Salo's reconstructed verb for "they laid" and added "to rest". I think "head" would be lenited as the object of "laid".

And Rauros, golden Rauros-falls, bore him upon its breast."
A Rauros, Rauros valthen, tync am 'ûr.
And Rauros, Rauros golden, brought him upon [its] heart.
***"Brought" would be "tunc".

"O Boromir! The Tower of Guard shall ever northward gaze
Ai Boromir! Minas Tirith nan forod tiritha an-uir.
O Boromir! The Tower [of] Guard to-the north will-look forever.

To Rauros, golden Rauros-falls, until the end of days."
Na Rauros, Rauros valthen, ir tôl i veth o aur ."
To Rauros, Rauros golden, when comes the end of days."
***"Na-den" is a reconstruction for "until" and I think I would use "in-aur" here instead of "o".

Hope this helps some!
Iavas
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 15, 2003 08:22
I really do appreciate all the comments... And they really help...

I just feel like I am NOT getting the mutations down correctly (for all the referencing the mutation chart that I do!) I just keep picking the wrong ones!!! :dizzy:



"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 18, 2003 10:52
Ok, I've got another attempt!

I'm trying to translate one of my favorite Christmas hymns. Again, I'm only going to do one verse at time to keep it from being too long... I know it'll need lots of corrections! Le hannon in advance!!

:blush:

What Child is This
Man Hên Hen
What Child [is] This

Right off the bat - I'm not entierly sure whether this should be "man" or "ian" and I think that "sen" should be lenited(?)


What Child is this, who laid to rest, on Mary's lap is sleeping?
Man Hên hen, i hodannen na Veri lostol?
What Child [is] this, who laid to rest, with Mary is sleeping?

I unfortunately had to use two of the "unattested" verbs: hoda- and losta-. Hopefully I've got the right verb forms.. I also wasn't quite sure how I should put "Mary" into Sindarin... I saw "Meri" used once but it may have been for Quenya...

Whom angels greet with anthems sweet, while shepherds watch are keeping?
Man rodyn suilaid na aerlinn velui, ir adanath tirad hebel?
Whom angels greet with holy songs sweet, while men watch [are] keeping?

I used "rodyn" for "angels", and I couldn't find anything else to use for "shepherds", darn it! And I'm not sure I have the verb forms right...

This, this is Christ the King, whom shepherds guard and angels sing
Sen, sen Hristo i Aran, i adanath tirar a rodyn linnar
This, this [is] Christ the King, whom men guard and angels sing

I'm not sure if that's the best word to use for "Christ", I did see once a Quenya word "Elpino", but, I wasn't sure...

Haste, haste to bring him laud, the babe, the son of Mary.
Tolo, celeg, togo e egleriad, i laes, i ion o Veri
Come, swiftly, bring him praise, the babe, the son of Mary

I wasn't sure on "togo" whether it should be tôg, but it seemed like the imperative worked there... also, wasn't sure about "him" (e), also wasn't quite sure about "son of Mary." It didn't seem quite right to put it as "Marion"???



[Edited on 18/6/2003 by gwendeth]

[Edited on 20/6/2003 by gwendeth]
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 20, 2003 11:44
Ok, folks - I know I didn't get that first verse right the first time!!!

Here's the other 2 verses...

Why lies he in such mean estate, where ox and ass are feeding?
E caetha vi sad dofn, ias levain medir.
He is lying in a place low(ly), where animals are feeding

Good Christian fear, for sinners here, the silent word is pleading.
Aphadrim vaer, gostad, an raegdain hi, i beth dhín pedol.
Followers good, fear, for sinners here, the word silent is pleading

So bring him incense, gold, and mhyrr, come peasant, king to honor him.
Togo ent dín, tolo adan, aran a togo aglar dín.
Bring gifts [to] him, come man, king and bring glory [to] him.

The King of kings salvation brings, let loving hearts enthrone him.
I Aran o erain veriad toged, guir velithui egleriar dín.
The King of kings protection brings, hearts loving praise him.
"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"
Iavas
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 20, 2003 02:47
Suilad Gwendeth! Good job on a rather difficult translation. This is one of my favorites as well.

What Child is This
Man Hên Hen
What Child [is] This

Right off the bat - I'm not entierly sure whether this should be "man" or "ian" and I think that "sen" should be lenited(?)
***You are correct with "man" and I think also with leniting "sen". Although I don't personally care for the repetitive "hên hen", I see no real alternative either.

What Child is this, who laid to rest, on Mary's lap is sleeping?
Man Hên hen, i hodannen na Veri lostol?
What Child [is] this, who laid to rest, with Mary is sleeping?
***I might word this just a little differently. Man hên hen, i hoda na Vell, lostol. What child this who lays with Mary, sleeping. I used "Mell" for "Mary". I got that from the names database.

I unfortunately had to use two of the "unattested" verbs: hoda- and losta-. Hopefully I've got the right verb forms.. I also wasn't quite sure how I should put "Mary" into Sindarin... I saw "Meri" used once but it may have been for Quenya...

Whom angels greet with anthems sweet, while shepherds watch are keeping?
Man rodyn suilaid na aerlinn velui, ir adanath tirad hebel?
Whom angels greet with holy songs sweet, while men watch [are] keeping?
***Man rodyn suilannar na aerlinn velui, ir adanath diriad hebel?
"Suilannar" is plural present tense of "greet". I would lenit "tiriad" as the object of the verb "keeping" and watch the spelling there.

I used "rodyn" for "angels", and I couldn't find anything else to use for "shepherds", darn it! And I'm not sure I have the verb forms right...

This, this is Christ the King, whom shepherds guard and angels sing
Sen, sen Hristo i Aran, i adanath tirar a rodyn linnar
This, this [is] Christ the King, whom men guard and angels sing
***I think lenited "Christo" would be "Ghristo". As far as whether that is the best choice here or not, I do not know. Spelling of "tiriar".

I'm not sure if that's the best word to use for "Christ", I did see once a Quenya word "Elpino", but, I wasn't sure...

Haste, haste to bring him laud, the babe, the son of Mary.
Tolo, celeg, togo e egleriad, i laes, i ion o Veri
Come, swiftly, bring him praise, the babe, the son of Mary
***"Celeg" is an adjective and we would need an adverb here. So we may have to reword again. How about just "Come, come..."? Tolo, tolo, togo egleriad 'nin laes, i Vellion. Come, come, bring praise to the babe, the son of Mary. This way you avoid the pesky pronoun altogether!

I wasn't sure on "togo" whether it should be tôg, but it seemed like the imperative worked there... also, wasn't sure about "him" (e), also wasn't quite sure about "son of Mary." It didn't seem quite right to put it as "Marion"???

Why lies he in such mean estate, where ox and ass are feeding?
E caetha vi sad dofn, ias levain medir.
He is lying in a place low(ly), where animals are feeding
***Lenit "dofn" to "dhofn". I would change the English translation to match your Sindarin. So, "He lies in a gloomy place where animals eat."

Good Christian fear, for sinners here, the silent word is pleading.
Aphadrim vaer, gostad, an raegdain hi, i beth dhín pedol.
Followers good, fear, for sinners here, the word silent is pleading
***I think I would use the imperative for "fear" "gosto" since there is the comma before it. I don't think I would lenit "si". "silent" would be "dhínen".

So bring him incense, gold, and mhyrr, come peasant, king to honor him.
Togo ent dín, tolo adan, aran a togo aglar dín.
Bring gifts [to] him, come man, king and bring glory [to] him.
***Togo aint 'nin laes, tolo adan ah aran a togo aglar 'nin laes. "dín" would be possessive and mean "his gifts, his glory" so I wouldn't use that in this case. The Sindarin pronominal system can be a nightmare so I would try to reword if possible. I used "to the babe" in both cases instead of "to him". I added "ah" for "and" between "man" and "king" just to help it flow a little better.

The King of kings salvation brings, let loving hearts enthrone him.
I Aran o erain veriad toged, guir velithui egleriar dín.
The King of kings protection brings, hearts loving praise him.
***I Aran in-erain veriad tôg, E guir vilui egleriathar aen.
I think "King of kings" is genitival so I used "in". I used the third person singular present tense for "brings". I then reworded the last part a bit to "He loving hearts should praise". I modeled this after the King's Letter and used "aen" in this case.

Hope this helps some!

Iavas



[Edited on 21/6/2003 by Iavas]
Malinornë
FAQ Admin, Quenya Moderator & Eldameldë
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 21, 2003 02:41
Whom angels greet with anthems sweet, while shepherds watch are keeping?
Man rodyn suilaid na aerlinn velui, ir adanath tirad hebel?
Whom angels greet with holy songs sweet, while men watch [are] keeping?
//I wonder if it would perhaps be better to use “ian” for “whom”, since I see it not as the beginning of new question here, but a logical continuation of the relative sentence in the previous line.

I haven´t found any Sindarin (or Quenya) word for Christ, but Derdzinski used "Meri" in a Sindarin translation of Ave Maria.
Iavas
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Post RE: Translate poems here
on: June 21, 2003 02:50
//I wonder if it would perhaps be better to use “ian” for “whom”, since I see it not as the beginning of new question here, but a logical continuation of the relative sentence in the previous line.

That was actually my first thought as well. The way it was separated is what made me finally go with "man", although I actually agree with you. It would probably be a good idea to remove the first question mark and make it just a comma. I think it would make it flow better as well.

[Edited on 21/6/2003 by Iavas]
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