Forum

Council Member
Posts: 43
Send Message

RE: Translate poems here
on: February 27, 2003 04:48

OK, this is my very first attempt at translating something, I hope I don't butcher it

The epitaph on Snowmane's grave:
"Faithful servant, yet master's bane,
Lightfoot's foal, swift Snowmane."

Sador, dagnir e herdir în,
Ion galpôd Uilosfinnel geleg.

(lit: faithful servant, bane of master his;
son of Light-animal'sfoot, Snowhair swift)

~Laurel~

[Edited on 3/18/2003 by Laurel]

Naneth

Elvish 101 Moderator
Posts: 568
Send Message

RE: Translate poems here
on: February 27, 2003 06:43

That's a nice job Laurel !! Just lenit the second element of the compound word "Galbod" and possibly use "fin" instead of "finnel" because finnel means "braided hair".

Council Member
Posts: 43
Send Message

RE: Translate poems here
on: February 28, 2003 02:39

That's a nice job Laurel !! Just lenit the second element of the compound word "Galbod" and possibly use "fin" instead of "finnel" because finnel means "braided hair".

GRRRRR!

I always miss something! I checked everything else for mutations...but I missed that one...thanks

~Laurel~
the revised Snowmane's epitaph:

Sador, dagnir e herdir în;
Ion galbôd, Uilosfin geleg.

[Edited on 3/18/2003 by Laurel]

Council Member
Posts: 43
Send Message

RE: Translate poems here
on: March 17, 2003 04:33

I saw R.D.'s version of the translation for Snowmane's epitaph and it is radically different from mine

I realize he is an expert and I am just beginning to get a basic understanding of the language...but it is still a bit disconcerting to be THAT off! I hope it is just a personal preference and poetic style and not that mine is full of gross errors!

:blush:

~Laurel~

sepdet

Council Member
Posts: 72
Send Message

RE: Translate poems here
on: March 17, 2003 05:18

Mama Naneth would've said if you'd made other mistakes, so I think it's just different vocabulary.

I have a question: what's the e? Is it a pronoun, or is it a stop mutation of en? And, based on my lesser knowledge, would dagnir herdir în work for "bane of his master"?

Gildor-Inglorion

Elvellon ar Pethdan
Posts: 296
Send Message

RE: Translate poems here
on: March 17, 2003 08:18

And, based on my lesser knowledge, would dagnir herdir în work for "bane of his master"?

Yes it would. Thats how I would translate it at least

Council Member
Posts: 43
Send Message

RE: Translate poems here
on: March 18, 2003 02:58

I thought that word order alone to show genitival relationships was only for proper nouns? That's why I did it that way: I was following the lessons.:cry: Now I am confused :dizzy:

~Laurel~

FAQ Admin, Quenya Moderator & EldameldÃ«
Posts: 1205
Send Message

RE: Translate poems here
on: March 18, 2003 03:38

If there´s no "the" in the phrase, say "bane of his master" instead of "bane of the master", you can form a genitive relationships by just word order, as for proper nouns.
There´s information about this in Gildor´s revised lessons - they´re only available in pdf so far, from this link:

http://www.councilofelrond.com/SindarinCourse.zip

[Edited on 18/3/2003 by Malinornë]

Accounts Admin, Sindarin Mod & Head Stargazer of Varda
Posts: 5808
Send Message

RE: Translate poems here
on: May 27, 2003 06:22

Is this thread still being used? I have two short poems that I wrote and translated into Sindarin....

I got a lot of help off of Elfling, so hopefully I have them right...

I listed them both with the Sindarin translation, "Literal" translation, and the "English" translation... Gwendeth

GLÎR DÛ

Cenin velethril nín, trin 'elaidh tôl
I galad en ithil síla am finnel dîn
Thiliar hin dîn be i ngiliath
Cân eneth nín, den gerin
A, e voe min rainc nîn

Melui glîr e-Dinúviel
Glîr meleth a thoged ´uir vín ne dû
I dhû lond vín!
Pedin eneth dín, a tôl amin
A, e voe min rainc nîn

Elo! Anglenna i amrûn, firir i ngail
Darnen linnad e-Dinúviel
A dû! A dû! Mas bennich?
Dartho! Ú-‘wanno! Melethril nín a im padatham râd lin,
A, e natha voe min rainc nîn

SONG OF [THE] NIGHT (Lit. translation)

I-see lover mine, through-the trees she-comes
The light of-the moon shines upon braided-hair hers
Glisters (for “sparkles”?) eyes hers like the starry host
She-calls name mine, I-hold her
And, she [is] soft in-the arms mine

Sweet [is the] song of-the nightingale
A song of love for leading our hearts in the night
The night [is] haven ours!
I-speak name hers, and she-comes to-me
And, she [is] soft in-the arms mine

Look! It-comes the sunrise, they-fade the stars
Stopped [has] the nightingale [its] singing
O night! O night! Where went-you?
Wait! Do-not-depart! Lover mine and I we-will-walk path yours
And, she will be soft in arms mine

NIGHT SONG
I see my lover coming through the trees
The moonlight shines upon her hair
Her eyes sparkle like stars
She calls my name, I hold her
And, she is soft in my arms

The nightingale’s song is sweet
A song of love to guide our hearts in the night
The night is our haven!
I speak her name, and she comes to me
And, she is soft in my arms

Look! The sunrise comes, the stars fade
The nightingale has stopped its singing
O night! O night! Where did you go?
Wait! Do not go! My lover and I will walk your path,
And, she will be soft in my arms

=====================================
NAVAER MELETHRON NIN

Lasto! Lasto i hûl tlhoss trin ‘elaidh
Lastathach lam nín le canel.
Ned orath vedui i telithar, ú-nallo
Dan linno na ‘lass govaded vín
Ae dorthan vi gúr lín, cuiathon
Lasto i hûl
Meleth dartha an-uir

FAREWELL LOVER MINE (Lit. translation)

Listen! Listen the wind whispers through-the trees
You-will-hear voice mine you calling
In days last which will-come, do-not-cry
But sing with joy [at] meeting ours
If I-dwell in heart yours, I-will-live
Listen [to] the wind
Love endures for-ever

FAREWELL MY LOVER

Listen! The wind is whispering through the trees
You will hear my voice calling you
In the last days to come, do not cry
But sing with joy at our meeting
If I dwell in your heart, I will live
Listen to the wind
Love lives forever

[Edited on 27/5/2003 by gwendeth]

[Edited on 27/5/2003 by gwendeth]

[Edited on 27/5/2003 by gwendeth]

[Edited on 28/5/2003 by gwendeth]

[Edited on 28/5/2003 by gwendeth]

[Edited on 29/5/2003 by gwendeth]

[Edited on 30/5/2003 by gwendeth]

"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"

FAQ Admin, Quenya Moderator & EldameldÃ«
Posts: 1205
Send Message

RE: Translate poems here
on: May 27, 2003 09:21

Ah, I wish I could write poems like these...sooo beautiful... Just one quickie comment for now, because it´s very late here

Thiliar chin în be i ngiliath

Don´t lenit "hin" - it is the subject of the sentence, not the object - it´s the eyes that are doing the sparkling, right?. I´d use "dîn" instead of "în" here.

Accounts Admin, Sindarin Mod & Head Stargazer of Varda
Posts: 5808
Send Message

RE: Translate poems here
on: May 27, 2003 09:33

Le hannon! Fixed! I'm sure there's more to be corrected...

Somehow, Sindarin just seems to "flow" into poetry (at least for me) - and I'm no poet.

Just imagine what we could do with a full vocabulary!!!!!

Suil!

===================
I fixed those edits!!! I just knew I still didn't have these down right!!!

[Edited on 28/5/2003 by gwendeth]

"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"

FAQ Admin, Quenya Moderator & EldameldÃ«
Posts: 1205
Send Message

RE: Translate poems here
on: May 27, 2003 04:45

Again, just some quick comments (have to go to work

), I´ll check more closely in the evening...

Velui glîr e-Dinúviel
//I´d not lenit an adjective when it comes before the noun it describes > melui

Glîr veleth tôg guir vín an i dhû
//"Guir" needs to be lenitet > ´uir because it´s the object of the verb. I´d interpret "an i dhû" as "to the night/for the night", so I suggest "ned" (in, used of time) instead.

Pedin eneth, a tôl amin
//I think you need an "dín" here, "her name"

Dangen e-Dinúviel linnad
//"dangen" (slain) is a very strong word, so I´ll try to think of something less violent

A dû! A dû! Ias bennich?
//"when?" as a question would be "mas".

Dartho! Ú-‘wanno! Melethril nín a im padatham rhâd lin,
//"path" seems to be "râd", which would be lenited > "râd" (no change)

FAQ Admin, Quenya Moderator & EldameldÃ«
Posts: 1205
Send Message

RE: Translate poems here
on: May 28, 2003 08:34

Suilad again! So, here are some more comments after having checked again, with dictionary and charts. I´ve put the three versions together (original, Sindarin, literal translation), only because I find it easier to write comments that way... Some things I´ve commented on I believe to be grammar mistakes, others are just a matter of taste, so please judge my words as critically as I have looked at yours

NIGHT SONG
GLÎR O DHÛ
SONG OF [THE] NIGHT
// If this is a song “coming from” the night, I´d write “glîr o dû”, but if the song rather “belongs to” the night, I´d go for simple genitive: “Glîr dû”

I see my lover coming through the trees
Cenin velethril nín, trin gelaidh tôl
I-see lover mine, through-the trees she-comes
// I´m not familiar with “trin”, but guess it might trigger some kind of mutation... you have used lenition in the second poem, so perhaps you should do so here as well.

And, she is soft in my arms
A, e moe min rainc nîn
And, she [is] soft in-the arms mine
//just rearranged the literal translation to fit with the Sindarin. And I guess it would be safest to lenit “moe”.

A song of love to guide our hearts in the night
Glîr veleth tôg 'uir vín an i dhû
[a] song [of] love guides hearts ours in the night
//”meleth” shouldn´t be lenited here, this is a simple genitival relationship. For “in the night”, I suggest “ne dû”, since “ned” seems to be preferred when referring to time. I´d also add the relative pronoun “i” to get “a song that guides”
Or another suggestion that might come even closer to the original text: “Glîr meleth a thoged ´uir vín ne dû” (A song of love for leading our hearts in the night)

The night is our haven!
I dhû círbann vín!
The night [is] haven ours!
//Purely a matter of taste, but “círbann” looks very literal and un-poetic to me, more like “shipyard”, so I´d prefer “lond” for “haven”

Look! The sunrise comes, the stars fade
Tiro! Anglenna i amrûn, fuiar i ngail
Look! It-comes the sunrise, they-fade the stars
//There´s nothing wrong with “tiro”, but I believe this is a place where we could use “Elo!” (“exclamation of wonder”)
“fade” is perhaps best translated “firir” here, “fuiar” (abhor) must be a slip when reading from the verb chart...

The nightingale has stopped its singing
Darnen linnad e-Dinúviel
Stopped [is] the singing of the nightingale
//Just rearranged word order a little. Another suggestion “Tollen i veth linnad e-Dinúviel” (Come is the end of the singing of the nightingale)
”Darnen” looks good too, this is just what I came up with before I saw that you had changed it.

And, she will be soft in my arms
A, e natha voe min rainc nîn
And, she will be soft in arms mine
//Moved “e” and simplyfied the literal translation - it was a lot more complicated than it needed to be

---------------
FAREWELL MY LOVER
NAVAER MELETHRON NIN
FAREWELL LOVER MINE
//needs an accent or circumflex on “nin”

Listen! The wind is whispering through the trees
Lasto! I hûl lhossol trin ‘elaidh
Listen! The wind [is] whispering through-the trees
//see comment on “trin” above. I´m not familiar with “whisper” as a verb, only the noun “lhoss”, so I guess it´s a reconstruction? Verb stem “lhossa-“?

You will hear my voice calling you
Lastathach lam nin le canel.
You-will-hear voice mine you calling
//needs an accent or circumflex on “nin”

In the last days to come, do not cry
Vi orath vedui i telithar, ú-nallol
In days last which will-come, do-not-cry
//I suggest “ned” for “in” when it´s referring to time. The imperative “don´t cry” would be “ú-nallo”.

If I dwell in your heart, I will live
Ae dorthan vi ‘úr lín, cuiathon
If I-dwell in heart yours, I-will-live
//Presumably “vi” doesn´t trigger any mutation, so no need to lenit “gûr”

Love lives forever
Meleth dartha an-uir
Love lives for-ever
//The literal translation should rather be “love endures forever”, but please keep “dartha”, I think it´s better than “cuia” would be here.

Again, I´ve really enjoyed reading these poems, so I hope you´ll write more!

[Edited on 28/5/2003 by Malinornë]

Accounts Admin, Sindarin Mod & Head Stargazer of Varda
Posts: 5808
Send Message

RE: Translate poems here
on: May 28, 2003 01:53

Ok - I think I've got all the corrections in, and I really liked your suggestions!!!

I do have one or two questions, though... I thought I had seen somewhere "trin" (trî + in) used for "through-the". (Probably in my imagination!!) What should I use?

On "lhossol" I have NO idea what I was thinking! I wouldn't think of being so bold as to attempt a reconstruction!!!!! :blush:

And yes, there were a bunch of "typos"!!! (spellcheck doesn't work on Sindarin!!!!!!!)

And - I am working on another poem!!!

Le hannon!!!!

"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"

FAQ Admin, Quenya Moderator & EldameldÃ«
Posts: 1205
Send Message

RE: Translate poems here
on: May 28, 2003 07:21

I didn´t say "trin" was wrong, just that *I* hadn´t seen it, which doesn´t mean it does not exist

It´s a convenient word (I have an aversion against the combination "preposition + article"...) but if you don´t want to use it, you could always try "trî" + "in" - that would at least make it clear what mutation to use (nasal because of "in").

To avoid "lhossol", perhaps you could reword the line a little:
"Lasto! Lasto i thloss sûl trin ‘elaidh"
(Listen! Listen to the whisper of the wind through the trees)

Accounts Admin, Sindarin Mod & Head Stargazer of Varda
Posts: 5808
Send Message

RE: Translate poems here
on: May 31, 2003 06:57

Suilad Edhil!

Ok - here I am again - "diving in" with another poem!!! :blush:

Please let me know what I should correct (and I have noted a couple of things I wasn't sure of)!!! I especially get confused with when to use "ned" "na" "an" and/or "vi"!!!

Le hannon! Gwendeth

The Journey West *
I Lend Dûn
(*I'm not entirely sure this title fits

!)

Toward the west our hearts are drawn
Cennir 'uir vín nan ndûn
Called-they hears ours to-the west

To lonely island far away
Na dôl ereb haered
To island lonely far

Toward the west our path is led
Tôg râd vín nan ndûn
It-leads path ours to-the west

To lonely shores we have not seen
Ú-gennim felais ereb hin
We-have-not-seen shores lonely these

The setting sun guides our way
Tegim na anor dhannad
we-are-led by sun falling

The sky is red and gold
I venel goll
The sky [is] golden-red

O wind, give wings to our ship
Ai gwedh, anno rovail a chair vín
O wind, give wings to ship ours

Let us fly o'er white-foamed waves
Reviam erin failf 'lyss
We-fly on-the breakers white

A spark of hope is raised within us
Eria estel* ammen
It-rises hope to-us
(* I wasn't sure whether "estel" or "amdir" would be better here!)

The lonely years fall like autumn leaves
Dannar ir* idhrinn ereb be i laiss ned lasbelin
Fall-they the years lonely like the leaves in autumn

(* could I get away with not having "ir" there?)

O hear the elven voices sing
Lasto! Linnar laim in edhil
Listen! They-sing [the] voices [of] the elves

Their songs of joy that greet us
Suilannar* mín vi** glîr verin
They-greet us in songs joyous

(* perhaps "suilannad mín" - "greeting us" would be better?)
(** could "vi" also mean "with" in this case?)

The setting sun has led our way
Tyngim na anor dhannad
We-were-led by sun falling

Flying o'er white-foamed waves
Reviannem erin failf 'lyss
We-flew on-the breakers white

To elven-home we came with joy
Tellim am mar-in-edhil na 'ell
We-came to home-[of]-the-elves with joy

Our home, at last, forever more
Na vedui, dôr* vín, an-uir
At last, land ours, forever

(* should "dôr" be plural here?)

[Edited on 1/6/2003 by gwendeth]

"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"

FAQ Admin, Quenya Moderator & EldameldÃ«
Posts: 1205
Send Message

RE: Translate poems here
on: June 01, 2003 04:15

Suilad Gwendeth!
I had actually decided to leave this for someone else, so you don´t only get *my* opinion all the time, but then I started to read and was lost again. You do this so beautifully! :love:
Sometimes it seems that this is not a Sindarin translation of an English poem or the other way round, but a rather loose interpretation, which makes it difficult to make suggestions - I don´t understand if you want the Sindarin to be as close as possible to the English text or not.
General comment: You put the verb first in almost all lines...is this for poetic reasons, because you think it sounds better that way? If not, I´d suggest normal “English” word order until some new information says otherwise. Have a look at the difference between the active participle and the gerund - they look the same in English but have different functions and you tend to use the gerund (“noun”) where the participle (“adjective”) is needed

You mostly use the prepositions the same way I would. This is how I see them:
"vi" = “in” when talking about location: in the west, in a house
"ned" = “in/of” when talking about time: in the evening, in winter, in May
"na" / “na”n = “to” when talking about direction: to the west, towards the sea
"an" / “´nin” = “to/for” when talking about people or being abstract: to you, for freedom
(I´d be happy to be corrected if I´ve gotten it wrong!)

The Journey West *
I Lend Dûn
//I believe this might translate as “The journey of the West”, so I´d suggest inserting “nan” for “towards”

Toward the west our hearts are drawn
Cennir 'uir vín nan ndûn
Called-they hearts ours to-the west
// If you want the passive voice, you might use the past participle: Guir vín cennin nan ndûn (Our hearts (are) called to the west)

To lonely island far away
Na dôl ereb haered
To island lonely far
//Lenit dôl > dhôl after “na”, lenit haered > chaered as an adjective following its noun

To lonely shores we have not seen
Ú-gennim felais ereb hin
We-have-not-seen shores lonely these
//pluralize ereb > erib because of plural “shores”

The setting sun guides our way
Tegim na anor dhannad
we-are-led by sun falling
//This would translate “We lead”, so I´d suggest a simpler solution: “Anor dhannol ven tôg”.

O wind, give wings to our ship
Ai gwedh, anno rovail a chair vín
O wind, give wings to ship ours
//”wind” is “gwaew”

A spark of hope is raised within us
Eria estel* ammen
It-rises hope to-us
//I think amdir, because it seems to me that estel would be there all the time, steady and not fading, while amdir would be based on reasoning and circumstances. But of course it depends on how *you* see this particular situation...

The lonely years fall like autumn leaves
Dannar ir* idhrinn ereb be i laiss ned lasbelin
Fall-they the years lonely like the leaves in autumn
//It is debated whether “ir” means “the” or “when” and Tolkien omitted the article now and then, so I think we can do that too. Ereb needs to be plural.

Their songs of joy that greet us
Suilannar* mín vi** glîr verin
They-greet us in songs joyous
//My suggestions: “Glîr rín verin i men suilannar” (their joyous songs that greet us) or “Men suilannar na glîr verin” (They greet us with joyous songs).
If you want “Their joyous songs greeting us”, you´d need the present participle suilannol for “greeting”. I don´t know if “us” here should be “men” or “mín” - they are both attested and I don´t know the difference between them

The setting sun has led our way
Tyngim na anor dhannad
We-were-led by sun falling
//This would mean “We lead”, so I suggest “Anor dhannol ven tunc” ((the) falling sun led us).

To elven-home we came with joy
Tellim am mar-in-edhil na 'ell
We-came to home-[of]-the-elves with joy
//I´d use “nan” for “to the (home of the elves)”. “Bar” comes from “mbar” so it mutates according to the “special cases” at the bottom of the chart.

Our home, at last, forever more
Na vedui, dôr* vín, an-uir
At last, land ours, forever
(* should "dôr" be plural here?)
//Nope - it´s only one land

Hope this helps

Iavas

rochvellon
Posts: 171
Send Message

RE: Translate poems here
on: June 01, 2003 04:27

Suilad Gwendeth! You've done a good job on this nice poem! Here are just a few suggestions for what I would change!

I've rearranged the sentence structure, but that is my personal preference. You certainly don't have to change yours if you don't want.

The Journey West *
I Lend Dûn
(*I'm not entirely sure this title fits !)
**I would add "nan" here and make this the "the journey to the west" so, "I lend nan Ndûn".
Toward the west our hearts are drawn
Cennir 'uir vín nan ndûn
Called-they hears ours to-the west
**Na ndûn guir vín cannen** "Towards west our hearts [are] called" I used the past participle for "are called".

To lonely island far away
Na dôl ereb haered
To island lonely far
**Just lenit "chaered".

Toward the west our path is led
Tôg râd vín nan ndûn
It-leads path ours to-the west
**Na ndûn râd vín tungen** "Towards west path our [is] led" I used the past participle again for "is led".

To lonely shores we have not seen
Ú-gennim felais ereb hin
We-have-not-seen shores lonely these
**Na felais ereb ú-gennim** "To shores lonely we have not seen"

The setting sun guides our way
Tegim na anor dhannad
we-are-led by sun falling
**Anor dhannol tôg ammen** "Sun falling leads for us" I used the present participle for "falling" as the gerund is a noun and we needed an adjective here. "Sun" is the subject so I used the 3rd person present tense of "lead".

The sky is red and gold
I venel goll
The sky [is] golden-red
**I venel garan a malthen** "The sky [is] red and golden" Just if you'd rather actually say "red and gold" as opposed to "golden-red".

O wind, give wings to our ship
Ai gwedh, anno rovail a chair vín
O wind, give wings to ship ours
**A gwaew, anno rovail a chair vín** I would use "gwaew" for "wind" as "gwedh" is "bond".

Let us fly o'er white-foamed waves
Reviam erin failf 'lyss
We-fly on-the breakers white

A spark of hope is raised within us
Eria estel* ammen
It-rises hope to-us
(* I wasn't sure whether "estel" or "amdir" would be better here!)
**Tint en-estel orthannen ammen** "Spark of hope is raised for us** I used "tint" for "spark" and used the past participle for "is raised". I might also use the gerund "harthad" for "hope". If so, it would be "Tint e-harthad..."

The lonely years fall like autumn leaves
Dannar ir* idhrinn ereb be i laiss ned lasbelin
Fall-they the years lonely like the leaves in autumn
(* could I get away with not having "ir" there?)
**Dannar idhrinn erib sui laiss ned lasbelin** You can leave out "ir" if you like. Pluralize "erib" to agree with "years". I would use "sui" for like and drop the following article "i" to avoid the two "i's" together. I think "ned" is appropriate here as it refers to time.

O hear the elven voices sing
Lasto! Linnar laim in edhil
Listen! They-sing [the] voices [of] the elves
**A lasto lammath edhellen linnar** "O hear voices elvish sing"

Their songs of joy that greet us
Suilannar* mín vi** glîr verin
They-greet us in songs joyous
(* perhaps "suilannad mín" - "greeting us" would be better?)
(** could "vi" also mean "with" in this case?)
**Glîr dín e-gell suilannar mín** "Songs their of joy greet us".."Suilannad" is a gerund which is a noun...I used present tense "greet" with the plural ending to agree with "songs". "Vi" is attested as "in" and at this time there is no evidence to suggest it might translate as "with".

The setting sun has led our way
Tyngim na anor dhannad
We-were-led by sun falling
**Anor dhannol tunc râd vín** "Sun falling led our way" I used the 3rd person past tense form of the verb here since I made "Sun" the subject.

Flying o'er white-foamed waves
Reviannem erin failf 'lyss
We-flew on-the breakers white

To elven-home we came with joy
Tellim am mar-in-edhil na 'ell
We-came to home-[of]-the-elves with joy
**Tellim nan mbar edhellen na 'ell** "We came to the home elvish with joy" You can also use "mbar-in-edhil" if you like that better.

Our home, at last, forever more
Na vedui, dôr* vín, an-uir
At last, land ours, forever
(* should "dôr" be plural here?)
**I don't think "dôr" should be plural. It translates as "At last, our land, forever".

Hope you find something here that helps!

Iavas

*Suilad, Mal! You just beat me!

[Edited on 1/6/2003 by Iavas]

[Edited on 1/6/2003 by Iavas]

Iavas

rochvellon
Posts: 171
Send Message

RE: Translate poems here
on: June 01, 2003 04:45

General comment: You put the verb first in almost all lines...is this for poetic reasons, because you think it sounds better that way? If not, I´d suggest normal “English” word order until some new information says otherwise.

I was wondering this as well and agree with Malinornë.

To lonely island far away
Na dôl ereb haered
To island lonely far
//Lenit dôl > dhôl after “na”, lenit haered > chaered as an adjective following its noun

"Dol" is lenited from "tol", but the circumflex does need to be removed.

Accounts Admin, Sindarin Mod & Head Stargazer of Varda
Posts: 5808
Send Message

RE: Translate poems here
on: June 01, 2003 04:50

Le hannon to both of you!!!

Those comments give me a lot to work with! Hopefully I'll get my edits in today!!

I guess I was under the "assumption" that the "preferred" sentence structure was to put the verb first most of the time. That may be why the "translation" is so loose.... I DO try to write my poems so I can work with the known/attested Sindarin words..... and not have to do too much "reworking"!

"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"

FAQ Admin, Quenya Moderator & EldameldÃ«
Posts: 1205
Send Message

RE: Translate poems here
on: June 01, 2003 07:55

To lonely island far away
Na dôl ereb haered
To island lonely far
//Lenit dôl > dhôl after “na”, lenit haered > chaered as an adjective following its noun

"Dol" is lenited from "tol", but the circumflex does need to be removed.

Correct! I and should check what word I´m commenting on...i was thinking of "hill", not "island" :blush:

Accounts Admin, Sindarin Mod & Head Stargazer of Varda
Posts: 5808
Send Message

RE: Translate poems here
on: June 01, 2003 08:53

The Journey West
I Lend na Nûn
The Jourrney towards-the West

Toward the west our hearts are drawn
Na nûn guir vín cannen
Towards the west hearts ours are-called

To lonely island far away
Na dol ereb chaered
To island lonely far

Toward the west our path is led
Na nûn râd vín tungen
Towards the west path ours [is] led

To lonely shores we have not seen
Na felais erib ú-gennim
To shores lonely we-have-not-seen

The setting sun guides our way
Anor dhannol tôg ammen
Sun falling leads for-us

The sky is red and gold
I venel garan a malthen
The sky [is] red and gold

O wind, give wings to our ship
Ai gwaew, anno rovail a chair vín
O wind, give wings to ship ours

Let us fly o'er white-foamed waves
Reviam erin failf 'lyss
We-fly on-the breakers white

A spark of hope is raised within us
Tint e-harthad orthannen ammen
[a] Spark of hope [is] raised for us

The lonely years fall like autumn leaves
Dannar idhrinn erib sui laiss ned lasbelin
Fall-they [the] years lonely like the leaves in autumn

O hear the elven voices sing
A lasto lammath edhellen linnar
O hear the voices elvish sing

Their songs of joy that greet us
Men Suilannar na 'lîr verin
They greet us with songs joyous

The setting sun has led our way
Anor dhannol tunc râd vín
Sun falling led way ours

Flying o'er white-foamed waves
Reviannem erin failf 'lyss
We-flew on-the breakers white

To elven-home we came with joy
Tellim nan mbar-in-edhil na 'ell
We-came to home-[of]-the-elves with joy

Our home, at last, forever more
Na vedui, dôr vín, an-uir
At last, land ours, forever

[Edited on 1/6/2003 by gwendeth]

[Edited on 1/6/2003 by gwendeth]

[Edited on 1/6/2003 by gwendeth]

[Edited on 2/6/2003 by gwendeth]

[Edited on 2/6/2003 by gwendeth]

[Edited on 2/6/2003 by gwendeth]

"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"

Iavas

rochvellon
Posts: 171
Send Message

RE: Translate poems here
on: June 01, 2003 03:30

Just a few more comments!

The Journey West
I Lend nan Ndûn
** or should it be 'na ndûn? If not, what is the difference?
The Journey toward the West

You could use either "nan" or "na" here. "Nan" means "to the", whereas "na" means "towards" or simply "to". If you were to use "na", you would also lenit "dûn" and have "na Nûn" instead. "Dûn" is one of the words derived from primitive "nd".

Toward the west our hearts are drawn
Na ndûn guir vín cannen
Towards the west hearts ours are-called

"Na nûn..." *See above note on "dûn". I was still thinking mixed mutation when I made my original post. :blush: Sorry about that!

To lonely island far away
Na dhol ereb chaered
** I knew better on the lenition!
To island lonely far

You have double lenited "tol". It should be "dol" here.

Toward the west our path is led
Na ndûn râd vín tungen
Towards the west path ours [is] led

**Na nûn.. Once again..:blush:

O hear the elven voices sing
A lasto lammath edthellen linnar
O hear the voices elvish sing

Just a typo on "edhellen".

Their songs of joy that greet us
Men Suilannar na 'lîr verin
**Shouldn't "glîr be linted as either the subject or being after "na"?
They greet us with songs joyous

"Glîr" would not be lenited as the subject, but would be following "na".

[Edited on 2/6/2003 by Iavas]

Accounts Admin, Sindarin Mod & Head Stargazer of Varda
Posts: 5808
Send Message

RE: Translate poems here
on: June 01, 2003 05:16

Le hannon again!! I really appreciate the help!! I think I'm starting to get a grasp!!! :dizzy:

"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"

Accounts Admin, Sindarin Mod & Head Stargazer of Varda
Posts: 5808
Send Message

RE: Translate poems here
on: June 05, 2003 05:17

Here I go again with another one!!! Please let me know what needs to be corrected!!!

[BTW - I wasn't quite sure - if two adjectives are joined with "and" (a/ah) is the second adjective lenited????]

The Guardian
I Dirn
The Guardian

His eyes were keen and bright,
Hin dín laeg a gelair,
Eyes his [were] keen and brilliant,

His bow arm strong and true.
Cû-ranc dín veleg a thenid.
Bow-arm his strong and true.

Fair and noble was my Elven Lord!
Bain ah arod Hîr Edhellen nín!
Fair and noble [was] Lord Elven mine!

A Warrior bold and tall.
Maethor veren a tond.
[A] Warrior bold and tall.

The guardian of our forest home.
I dirn taur-mar vín.
The guardian [of] forest home ours.

Cunning was our enemy,
Coth vín guru,
Enemy ours [was] cunning,

Cruel were their blades.
Hethyl hain mbailch hain.
Blades theirs [were] cruel.

But wise and clever was my Elven Lord!
Dan sael a maen Hîr Edhellen nín!
But wise and clever [was] Lord Elven mine!

A Warrior bold and tall.
Maethor veren a tond.
[A] Warrior bold and tall.

The guardian of our forest home.
I dirn taur-mar vín.
The guardian [of] forest home ours.

The swords flashed in the sunlight,
I megyl thilianner an ngalad en anor,
Swords glistened in light of-the sun,

Countless enemies fell.
Cyth arnediad danner.
Enemies countless fell.

And strong and brave was my Elven Lord!
A beleg a beren Hîr Edhellen nín!
But strong and brave [was] Lord Elven mine!

A Warrior bold and tall.
Maethor veren a tond.
[A] Warrior bold and tall.

The guardian of our forest home.
I dirn taur-mar vín.
The guardian of forest home ours.

His bowstring sang it's battle cry.
Tang dín linnant 'lîr dagor.
Bowstring his sang [it's] song of battle.

Our enemies fled in terror.
Cyth vín drenger 'rogol.
Enemies ours they-fled feeling terror.

Triumphant and daring was my Elven Lord!
Gellui a berthol Hîr Edhellen nín!
Triumphant and daring [was] Lord Elven mine!

A Warrior bold and tall.
Maethor veren a tond.
[A] Warrior bold and tall.

The guardian of our forest home.
I dirn taur-mar vín.
The guardian of forest home ours.

And in my heart he dwells.
A dortha vi gûren.
And he-dwells in heart-mine.

[Edited on 6/6/2003 by gwendeth]

[Edited on 6/6/2003 by gwendeth]

"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"

FAQ Admin, Quenya Moderator & EldameldÃ«
Posts: 1205
Send Message

RE: Translate poems here
on: June 06, 2003 08:31

Suilad Gwendeth!
Mmm...another poem...I love them! And you´re doing better with the grammar all the time! I´d just like to comment on a few things:

The guardian of our forest home.
I dirn o thaur mar vín.
The guardian of forest home ours.
// I´d likely omit the “o” here, but it depends on what you want to say - is it a “genitive” of, or is it “of” as in a phrase like “Boromir of Gondor”? In the latter case I´d keep the “o”. I´m not comfortable with “forest home”... but can´t think of a good suggestion now. Same with “bow arm” in the previous line. Perhaps one could get away with “taur-mar”?

Cunning was our enemy,
Coth guru vín,
Enemy cunning ours,
//I´d write “Coth vín guru” - I think that word order would give more of a hint that there´s supposed to be an “is” in the sentence. But that´s just my taste.

Cruel were their blades.
Hethyl velch hain.
Blades cruel theirs.
// Plural of “balch” >“bailch” I think, and since it comes from “mb-“ I believe it would lenit > mbailch

But wise and clever was my Elven Lord!
Dan hael a maen Hîr Edhellen nín!
But wise and clever [was] Lord Elven mine!
//Adjectives placed before the noun are not lenited, so “sael”.

The swords flashed in the sunlight,
In vegil thilianner an ngalad en anor,
Swords glistened in light of-the sun,
//”the swords” would be “i megyl” (from “magol”) or “i megil” (from “megil”, but that´s said to be probably a Noldorin word)

His bowstring sang it's battle cry.
Teng dín linnant dagor 'lîr.
Bowstring his sang [it's] battle song.
//Spellcheck: tang. I´d probably write “battle cry” as “´lir dagor” (song of battle), or have a go at a compound word (but I´m lousy at those...so I don´t know if ”dagorlir” would be a possible word...)

Our enemies fled in terror.
Cyth vín drenger ne gryngin.
Enemies ours they-fled in terror.
//Perhaps “ne goe” for “in terror”, but I think the present participle might be used here: “drenger ´rogol” (fled feeling terror)

And in my heart he dwells.
A dortha vi 'ûren.
And he-dwells in heart-mine.
//”vi” is not known to trigger any mutation.

[BTW - I wasn't quite sure - if two adjectives are joined with "and" (a/ah) is the second adjective lenited????]
//I wouldn´t lenit the second adjective, but I know people have different opinions on this.

Accounts Admin, Sindarin Mod & Head Stargazer of Varda
Posts: 5808
Send Message

RE: Translate poems here
on: June 06, 2003 09:58

Le hannon! Just a couple of questions to clarify for myself:

The guardian of our forest home.
I dirn o thaur mar vín.
The guardian of forest home ours.
// I´d likely omit the “o” here, but it depends on what you want to say - is it a “genitive” of, or is it “of” as in a phrase like “Boromir of Gondor”? In the latter case I´d keep the “o”. I´m not comfortable with “forest home”... but can´t think of a good suggestion now. Same with “bow arm” in the previous line. Perhaps one could get away with “taur-mar”?

>>> I changed it to "taur-mar", but would taking out the "o" then change the lenition to "daur-mar"? I haven't changed that yet....

>>> I also put a "dash" for bow arm (cû-ranc). Would that be better?

The swords flashed in the sunlight,
In vegil thilianner an ngalad en anor,
Swords glistened in light of-the sun,
//”the swords” would be “i megyl” (from “magol”) or “i megil” (from “megil”, but that´s said to be probably a Noldorin word)

>>> wouldn't "megyl" still be lenited to "vegyl"??? I didn't change that yet, either...

I really appreciate the insights, and I really hate typos!!!!!

"Tolo si, a tiro i cherth Eru" "Come now, and see the works of God"

FAQ Admin, Quenya Moderator & EldameldÃ«
Posts: 1205
Send Message

RE: Translate poems here
on: June 06, 2003 01:46

The guardian of our forest home.
I dirn o thaur mar vín.
>>> I changed it to "taur-mar", but would taking out the "o" then change the lenition to "daur-mar"? I haven't changed that yet....

It woud be "I dirn taur-mar vín" - a simple genitival construction by just putting the words next to each other without any prepositions or mutations. This isn´t mentioned in the workbook lessons, only in the newer pdf ones, so if you haven´t downloaded them, do that - there are other changes as wel

>>> I also put a "dash" for bow arm (cû-ranc). Would that be better?

It looks better to me, but seriously, I don´t know. Let´s see what someone else says. I´m unsure of how compounds from two nouns are best formed - I mean, which of them should go first.

The swords flashed in the sunlight,
In vegil thilianner an ngalad en anor,
Swords glistened in light of-the sun,
//”the swords” would be “i megyl” (from “magol”) or “i megil” (from “megil”, but that´s said to be probably a Noldorin word)
>>> wouldn't "megyl" still be lenited to "vegyl"???

//Swords is plural, so you need the plural article "in", which triggers nasal mutation, not lenition. in+megyl > i megyl.