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Silversnow
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Post RE: Religions
on: August 25, 2004 04:42
I'd have to go with Glory2Glorfindel. I was born a Catholic but then started seeing the world as a work of humans. So, I do think I am that Perception-of-Nothing-ist, I just didn't know how to word it. There's a lot of arguements in my family, too, because my brothers and I are athiests (or Perception-of-Nothing-ist) and my mom and dad are still Catholics. I'm just glad that one of my brothers does debate and the other one is a genius so I don't have to do any work. Evil me!

I do have to admit, believeing in the Valar of Lord of the Rings would be fun to do. Become like a follower of Manwe or some other great spirit of LotR.
ShotoKid
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Post RE: Religions
on: September 06, 2004 10:21
I'm also a Roman Catholic! born, raised, and confirmed (exactly 13 years after my baptism) as one
atrandom
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Post RE: Religions
on: November 26, 2004 07:32
I proudly am a evangelical born-again Christian.
vaya
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Post RE: Religions
on: November 28, 2004 06:01
Right...

I was born and raised a methodist, my mom had always been one and my father was a lapsed catholic. The church we went to was founded by hippies, and really just went on the vein that as long as you were a good person at heart, it was all good.

I was taught love, respect, and peace above all else. To me, these are the qualities of a good christian.

As I grew up though, I decided that I was not a christian, because I did not believe that Jesus rose again, died for our sins or anything like that. However, being near Salem, I quickly found something I could put my soul to.

Wicca.

For awhile I was a unitarian, another group of fabulous people, while I pondered the ups and downs of becoming a witch. Eventually I decided that yes it was teh thing to do.

My mom was at first appalled at my choice, but she believed in love, forgiveness and acceptence, and so came to accept and respect my choice...shortly before she died.

She was, imo, the model of a good christian. She was loving, caring and always willing to lend a helping hand, but above all, she was very human. While she was judgmental, she wouldn't let her personal feelings affect how she treated people.

As for me, I am an eclectic solitary witch. I have studied the Norse, Greek, East Asian, Native American and Celtic traditions. I can feel the power of the earth, air, fire and water and can shape it to improve the world. I recently have been studying buddhism, and have been incorperating that into my spirituality.

The spiritual journey, for me, starts at birth, and your current religion/faith or whatever, is a sum of everything you have learned before. My Christian upbringing is important, as is my tiem with the UU's, my study of mythology, Buddhism, and what I have learned as a witch.

Aside from this, I am also firmly a secular humanist, and believe that science and religion or spirituality need to be kept separate in the head and in the heart. I believe in evolution, science and logic, as well as magic, the goddess and her power.

It all goes back to the babel fish argument (Douglas Adams), in which god says "I refuse to prove that I exist, for proof denies faith and without faith I am nothing"

God, or any godlike being, is a construct of our faith, without wich, it couldn't exist. By the same token, the existence of god cannot be proven nor disproven by observation or any scientific technique, and defies logic. Therefore, anything which hinges on the existence of god, is not science, its philosophy.
Cailyn
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Post RE: Religions
on: November 28, 2004 10:24
I'm a Wiccan. I grew up Methodist, but I knew I wasn't really one. Maybe it's just because I never liked the way my mother acted as a so-called Christian, but I would have left anyway. At least this way I can do it myself instead of watching someone else do it for me.

Any Pagans or Atheists, or Perception-of-the-nothing-ists, please don't take offense at this next thing. I just don't see how anyone can live without God in their life.


Quick note to Vanya. Just because someone is pagan doesn't mean that person doesn't believe in God. It just means they have a different idea of what God is. I actually have a God and a Goddess.

[Edited on 11/28/2004 by Cailyn]
Sirthien
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Post RE: Religions
on: November 30, 2004 12:18
Hehee... well My bloodfather was a jew, so I'm learned in the jewish way, my mother is a muslim, so I know the Islamic way, my stepdad is a Catholic so I know the christian way... I'm a mix between these three and the faith of Gaia...
Anoria_Miriel
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Post RE: Religions
on: December 04, 2004 07:19
I'm agnostic.I don't believe in any from of deity. My close family are all atheists, but my grandparents on my Mum's side were Jewish and Quakers, and my grandparents on my Dad's side are Methodists.
However, my priniples nad beliefs are simalar to those of Quakers and Pagans.

[Edited on 11/9/2005 by Anoria_Miriel]
orthanc5
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Post RE: Religions
on: December 18, 2004 03:27
If you ever want proof (anyone) that God exists, we can have a discussion over PM's. I won't try to shove any religion down your throat, I'll just give facts and abstract reasoning.

[Edited on 19/12/2004 by orthanc5]
vaya
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Post RE: Religions
on: December 19, 2004 04:32
If you ever want proof (anyone) that God exists, we can have a discussion over PM's. I won't try to shove any religion down your throat, I'll just give facts and abstract reasoning.



well, not to be a nudge, or even to cause a big contreversial discussion. But I am going to weigh in here and say that one cannot prove nor disprove the existence of god.

It all goes back to the babel fish argument from Hitchiker's Guide to the Galexy (excellent book, the man was a philosopher)

God: I refude to prove that I exist, for proof denies faith and without faith I am nothing.

Now, While I do believe in the existence of a godlike being, I recognize that such a being cannot be proven to exist because

A. Such a being defies logic.
B. If God, or any godlike being, is a construct of our faith in it, then there is no need for its existence to be proven because faith doesn't need proof.
C. God is unfalsifiable. MEaning that you cannot disprove his existence. This is a very important tenant in any scientific theory. It must be falsifiable. If one was to point to proof that god existed, and an atheist came along and said, "ah but" and offered another possibility for why such and such happened, one could just say, "Well, since God is omnipotent, he could've just made it happen that way" or "he could have made it look that way"

This pretty much renders any observable evidence worthless, therefore, you cannot prove the existence of God.


Now, I am not saying that God doesn't exist, but what I am sayuing is that you cannot prove that god exists for the benefit of another. Only the individual can prove god exists for him or herself.

Just to present another perspective here
Brannion
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Post RE: Religions
on: December 20, 2004 01:49
I'm a Born-Again and Holy Spirit filled Christian. I've been raised Christian and even though at times I've tried to become wiccan, it never works out.
LadyEowyn_Of_Rohan
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Post RE: Religions
on: December 20, 2004 03:14
I'm a Christian, but I'm also agnostic on a level. I'm not sure if agnostic is the right word for it, because that means not confirming or denying the existence of a god - I definitely believe in God and Jesus, but some of the rest is mostly up for speculation with me. And I believe in both science and my religion... don't see why they can't go together.
orthanc5
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Post RE: Religions
on: December 21, 2004 12:22
It all goes back to the babel fish argument from Hitchiker's Guide to the Galexy (excellent book, the man was a philosopher)

Great book, I'm on Life, the Universe, and Everything. It's hilarious, but it also has a lot of philisophical meaning in disguise.

You're not being a nudge, but here are my answers to your points.

God cannot be proven or disproven on the level that you cannot truly prove anything. ( On the other hand, you truly cannot disprove anything, because doing as much would be saying that you know everything.) You cannot prove that an apple is red, your senses may be deceiving you. You cannot prove that the earth is spinning. Nothing can be truly proven, but we must look at things on a human level, that we can come to an agreement that some things are "true," like apples being red and the earth spinning.

If God, or any godlike being, is a construct of our faith in it, then there is no need for its existence to be proven because faith doesn't need proof.


I think Douglas Adams used this in his Babel fish argument only to add to the humor, and give God a reason to disappear "in a puff of logic". If things exist as a construct of our faith, why don't they disappear if we stop believing him? Constructs of our faith cannot exist for another reason, which is conflicts of belief. Many kids believe in Santa Clause, but adults don't. Belief in things does not make them exist or cease to exist.

Finally, such a being as a god does not defy logic, if you look at them as a being. If you mean that it is impossible for an all-powerful being to exist, you have no proof. I have proof, but that would give a far too religious spin on this, and probably turn this into to too much of an argument for the forums.

My apologies to the moderators if you want to delete this, but I felt compelled to write a response. If anyone wants to take up the discussion over PM's with me, feel free.
vaya
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Post RE: Religions
on: December 21, 2004 02:41
God cannot be proven or disproven on the level that you cannot truly prove anything.


Ok, I am not talking metaphysics or philosophy here, I am talking science....

a theory cannot be considered valid on a scientific level if it cannot be falsified, or proven wrong. Anything involving an omnipotent being cannot be disproven, because anything within the realm of human imagination is within its powers. Whose to say that god didn't manipulate the data to make it look like we evolved? Certainly its within his power, and hey he could've done it the simple way, but if you're all powerful why not have some fun?

Therefore the existence of god cannot be disproven by observable data. If something cannot be disproven, then it cannot be proven by scientific means.

therefore, you cannot prove the existence of God using logic or science.

If things exist as a construct of our faith, why don't they disappear if we stop believing him?


Who says they don't?

If a tree falls in a forest, does it make a sound?

While it would cause vibrations, there is no one around to perceive them, it disapears from all human knowledge, as if it never happened. What you percieve later is the fallen tree, but not the sound of the tree, so whose to say that the tree ever made noise.

If no one believes in the existence of a god, then he can never been said to have existed.
orthanc5
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Post RE: Religions
on: December 22, 2004 04:08
Okay, this is turning into to much of an argument for the forums, if anyone wants to hear my answers to these points (yes I have them, I'm not just giving up), send me a PM.
Tyrhael
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Post RE: Religions
on: December 23, 2004 03:42
Lol, yeah, funny about the evolution thing. The chances of things that 'supposedly' had to have happened in order to uphold the theory of evolution are as follows: (sientifically proven) If you took a bunch of car parts (every part that you would need to build a car) and threw them all together, the chances that they would fall together as a car are about the chances that anything could just evolve, change it's DNA, etc.


Um, the aspect of that situation in my perspective is there is one thing I wouldn't understand as an agnostic with your example: with car parts and a car, you are implying that the purpose of car parts is to complete a car and that producing a car is what is supposed to happen and if it does not happen then the system has somehow failed. However, if I believe that there is no God (I'm still unsure), then I would look at it thinking that what has happened on Earth is just one of the infinite possibilities that could have happened, and that it wasn't "supposed" or "destined" to be; it just happened. I truly believe (if I believe there is no God, that is) that if one tiny thing had been different in the past, even the absence of one atom, that something would be different today, though I certainly could not attempt to guess what.

On another note, I happen to be agnostic - I used to be a Protestant Christian; though I believed Jesus was a wise teacher of moral standards who should be admired, I always had trouble with my church's view that he was one of the facets of God; I always regarded him as a separate, human, figure. However, I suppose I could someday believe that he was/is the Messiah; the problem I really have with Christianity is the portrayal of the Old Testament God (I used to read the OT far more when I was young and liked it better than the NT since it had more stories) - at some times I didn't like some aspects, i.e. killing innocent women and children, genocide, injustice, cruelty and violence, the absurdity and contradictions in the Bible, like proclaiming that pi is 3, intolerance, and basically finding out that I wasn't worth *****, that I wasn't allowed to go into churches as I'd profane their holy nature, that my very existance puts the people I love and care about for risk because as long as I associate with them they'll burn in hell with me, yada yada yada. Obviously, I wasn't too pleased with it, though I forced myself to keep it up nonetheless.

It was just that believing everything would be all right and that there is a God made everything so easier; I didn't have to worry night and day about how much time I had left, what if I never got to say goodbye to those I loved; etc.
Eventually, I became estranged with Christians after finally associating the word "Christian" with persecution and hellfire; I was just too tired of having to keep punishing myself and following strict laws; I grew sick of defacing my body as punishment/atonement for impure thoughts or unworthiness.
I just can't get it back into me to go back to the church; my beliefs seem to be all or nothing: either I don't believe, or I have to follow every single rule in the Bible and not eat meat on certain days, only wear clothes of certain thread, etc. I haven't ever gone asofar as to completely try to follow all the OT rules, but that's just because I was hesitant.

On a whole other note, I have a deep reverence for the earth / nature; I've wondered what it would be like to be pagan, though I probably will never become one.

At the current time, no, I don't believe in a God, or even if I do, I hold no chance for an afterlife; I'm just a thoroughly pessimistic person.

(By the way, on the Belief-O-Matic I got Unitarian Universalist (100%), Liberal Quakers (96%), Bahá'í Faith (93%), and Neo-Pagan (90%) for my top four).
BelleBayard
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Post RE: Religions
on: December 24, 2004 05:31
I appreciate the philosophy espoused here, however, as orthanc5 says, it's getting a bit heated in here. Remember, this place is for discussion of Tolkien. While we have provided the Prancing Pony as an off topic forum, we still require that no one be bashed, no belief or difference put down. If you read something upsetting, take a deep breath and count to ten before posting in anger. Touchy subjects such as politics, religion, abortion, etc. often engender very emotional responses and as such, we have to monitor them carefully. Forgive me for being busy with work and school or I would have caught this earlier. Peace, folks, especially at this time of year. Happy holidays, regardless of your belief system.
Feanorblingblingissues
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Post RE: Religions
on: January 02, 2005 06:20
I'm a christian. Nothing to lose and everything to gain I suppose is why I became one.... I mean I'd been a church kid and everything but when I made the decision that's why. It's different now though.... hard to explain but it really great.

[Edited on 3/1/2005 by Feanorblingblingissues]
Elessar_2
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Post RE: Religions
on: January 05, 2005 02:02
Yah! I'm a Christian too. Pleased to meat you, Feanor. And everybody else out there to. Just to lazy to read the entire thread.
Nauma
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Post RE: Religions
on: January 08, 2005 06:58
And I believe in both science and my religion... don't see why they can't go together.
Lol, LadyE- I like to call it "enlightened Christian". Which is sort of what I am. It's funny because I'm definitely Christian, but many denominations that call themselves Christian would call me a heretic... c'est la vie. Case in point: I don't believe the Bible itself has any intrinsic holiness, except as interpreted through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. And right there probably ten denominations have disowned me. On the other hand, I also accept some more radically mystic Christian traditions- healing prayer or speaking in tongues, anyone? And now I've freaked out the rest of the Christian church, but the ten that disowned me before are thinking about taking me back... My new motto is, some things you just gotta work out between yourself and Jesus, and hope you find a church that embraces the principle of soul freedom- but not too loosely...
vaya
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Post RE: Religions
on: January 09, 2005 08:09
I like to call it "enlightened Christian".


Or perhaps a secularist, a humanist...for those of us who are not Christian

As a practitioner of an earth religion (a nature worshiper) and as a student of the earth scientists, this comes up all the time for me. So I keep science and my spiritual beliefs separate, there is a perfectly good scientific reason for everything, and when I am talking to fellow studnets, that is the reason discussed.

But I also believe in a divine and spiritual aspect to it as well.
WoodHuorn
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Post RE: Religions
on: January 25, 2005 05:50
Born Roman Catholic, converted to Protestant Lutheran, living in a Calvinist environment but with staunch New Age and Wilderness beliefs = that's me.
Nature is my true religion, where God and Mother Nature are one and all and man is one of the facets of life's diamond.

Wood Huorn, destroyer of Orc maggots!
Pippin_the_periannath
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Post RE: Religions
on: January 30, 2005 07:05
I consider myself a liberal Christian
foolofatook~
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Post RE: Religions
on: February 06, 2005 07:41
Me a Christian!!!
Celedë_Anthaas
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Post RE: Religions
on: February 07, 2005 08:58
I don't really belong to any religion, I 'spose you could call me a agnostic. I don't believe in one or more god(s)/goddess(es), but I don't deny the fact that he/she/it/they excist.
I believe in science, and respect all other religions. My grandma is a Christian, one of my best friends is a Muslim, my brother is an Atheist, and some of my friends here at CoE are Jews or Christians. I don't mind.

As I said, I don't belong to any religion, and I'm ok with that. I believe that faith is very personal, and no one should try to convince others to become a member of their religion.
Nature is very important to me, and I've been a vegetarian for almost a year now.

I'm an agnostic positivist. I only believe in things I can perceive with my senses or with the help of technology (radiowaves, for instance). There may be a god or some sort of divine power at work in the Universe, but so far I haven't seen any evidence for one (nor any conclusive evidence for lack of one either), and I'm totally incapable of taking things like that on faith. Currently I do just fine without a religious faith, something some of my Christian acquaintances find hard to believe or even offensive.

I'm also rather anti-religion in general, since religions are so easily abused, and more atrocities have been committed in this world because of religion than for any other cause. I do respect genuine religious faith, although I have no time for bigots who misuse their religion for other, less noble, purposes.


~ Manephelien


Yeah, that's me as well, only I think I'm not so anti-religion, unless of course the religion is misused.

[Edited on 8/2/2005 by Celedë_Anthaas]
Shadowfax319
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Post RE: Religions
on: February 09, 2005 12:12
I'm a Christian. God has done everything for me. I have so many stories of where God has helped me. Please, if anyone has any questions in Christianity or Creation, please, please, please, PM me.

God Bless You!
elvishmusician
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Post RE: Religions
on: February 21, 2005 06:47
I'm a Christian. Both my parents are Christian but I've made my own decision to follow Christ. I attend church every Sunday and not because I feel I have to but because I want to and I enjoy it. Like Shadowfax319 anyone with any questions on Christianity, Creation etc please don't hesitate to PM me, God Bless
Silmaure
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Post RE: Religions
on: May 08, 2005 08:30
I'm Jewish, yet I believe somewhat in the Paganism of Karelia. So I'm sorta like a Paganistic Jew.
Ataralassë_Manveri
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Post RE: Religions
on: May 10, 2005 05:29
Well, I was raised Baptist, and if we were in the presence of my family I'd say Baptist.
In reality, I'm a far cry from being one. I still have "fun" when I'm told I need to be baptized. No, I don't.
I'm not sure what I am, now that I really think of it. Generally I think of myself as pagan. And I am.
I believe that all religions are valid. All deities exist. Who I choose to follow is my decision.
On the other hand, I also believe that people created the deities. I believe Man came before God.
It's just that over time God or Allah or Yahweh, or Zeus, whatever you want to call him or her, has amassed (is that a word?) enough power/energy to become it's own entity. Okay, that's not EXACTLY what I think, but it's pretty close. I'm bad at wording things.
Please note, I don't think Man is more powerful or important than God/dess. I'm not saying that at all.
Ataralassë_Manveri
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Post RE: Religions
on: May 10, 2005 05:41

I'm also rather anti-religion in general, since religions are so easily abused, and more atrocities have been committed in this world because of religion than for any other cause. I do respect genuine religious faith, although I have no time for bigots who misuse their religion for other, less noble, purposes.


What kind of other, less noble, purposes do they use their faith for?? I'm confused.:dizzy:
Please don't take offense at this, I just don't know what you are talking about.

I am a Christian, and I love it. Any Pagans or Atheists, or Perception-of-the-nothing-ists, please don't take offense at this next thing. I just don't see how anyone can live without God in their life. Jesus did so much for us, and it genuinley pains me to see people reject Him.

[Edited on 22/3/2004 by Vanya]


I'll step up and reply. I don't know if anyone else has, I'm still reading the replies. I'm basically a pagan. I believe in God, just differently than most. I liked God so much, I decided to worship, him, his sisters, his brothers,lol. (just joking) As for Jesus.... To me, he's just another guy for the history books. Ghandi did great things too, but we don't go worshipping him. I think we need to take our clues from what was done, not who did it.

ETA: less noble? Like "faith healers" and "jehovah's witnesses" come to my mind. I don't like ANYONE who tries to convert another to their religion. To me, that is a breach of free will. If I want to become part of someone else's religion, I will. Otherwise, don't come to me saying how your way is better. No thanks, that is just rude. I don't believe in faith healers either, by that I am referring mostly to the televangelist kind. The "demons begone" and smack you on the forehead and suddenly you can walk again is PURE BS to me. It's just a scam for money and media attention.

[Edited on 11/5/2005 by Elistariel]
Ataralassë_Manveri
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Post RE: Religions
on: May 10, 2005 06:18
no, 's okay, Gildor, no offense taken. A lot of people react that way to me, lol.

As an explanation to the "nothing matters" bit that you quoted, I'd like to expand on the part where I said, "every moment is perfectly new"... I believe that each moment, whatever it is (less than a nanosecond or more than a year) is different. I think we are truly different people in every section of time. Can you, or can anyone, find any proof that we existed a moment ago? If someone were "created" (for lack of a better word) and given memories, be they false or true, and created with the belief that they had always been there, would they ever realize that they had just been created? What if you had died in one moment and this were just a dream? I think the human mind is powerful, intelligent, complex enough to create a dream of this reality.

That said, I think another word for what I've been calling "perception" (to mean, world, existence, experience, etc) might be dream. Sometimes, my world, my existence, my experience, my life is like... well, you know when you sorta half wake up in the middle of the night and you know that you're still asleep, and you know that you're still dreaming, but you can't change it? ((not to compare any other system of beliefs to sleeping or being in the dark or anything!)) I suppose in that way, I believe in an ultimate fate, that everything's going to happen one way, and we can't really change it. I mean, we might, say, not pay the rent, and then be evicted. Some might say that we changed the fate, the destiny, by not paying the rent. I say that part of that fate, that destiny, was not paying the rent. It never really was our doing, or not doing.

Okay, some might think of this as depressing, but it's... liberating.
To quote my mom
"How am I supposed to control you if you don't care about anything??!"


G2G, your religion is very confusing to me. I think I get the gist of what you're saying. I think you'd be interested in the belief systems of the Australian aboriginese. I totally spelled that wrong.
~LadyofMirkwood~~
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Post RE: Religions
on: May 12, 2005 09:13
I'm a Christian but more specificly I'm a Baptist. I'm a Christian by my own choice and even though I grew up in a Christian home I made my own choice on being a Christian. I honestly cannot believe what my life would be like if I wasn't saved.
Salquelatine
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Post RE: Religions
on: June 11, 2005 06:41
I'm a Christian but more specificly I'm a Baptist. I'm a Christian by my own choice and even though I grew up in a Christian home I made my own choice on being a Christian

Wow! Me too! But I was born into christianity and I went along with it for a while. I have been let down (ps this is not an attack it's just a reveiw) by christians so I am looking for another religeion. I think Kabbalah is cool. It's like a Judism/Christianity. Check out my thread on it.
nutmeg1
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Post RE: Religions
on: June 17, 2005 02:17
I'm a born-again Christian here! I think the reason why a lot of people don't like Christianity is because they truly don't understand it. The world is filled with fake Christians (I'm not saying that any of you guys are) that act all happy and cheerful and sing the loudest at church and then the rest of the week they live a life of hypocrisy, acting Christian when it is convenient to them. Also, there are so many "Christians" who disrespect other people and look down upon them if they aren't Christian or are living in sin. Christianity is supposed to be love towards everybody. No wonder people are sceptical about it. Real Christianity isn't about "being perfect", it's about realizing that we are all human and need the help of God. A small number of church-goers are really born-again believers. People use the term "Christian" very loosely. But if people will dig deeper they will find what it's all about. For me, Jesus is as real today as He was two thousand years ago. Proof is all around for those who will look for it. I think it is easier to have faith in believing God than not believing. No offense meant, but I find it impossible not to believe in Jesus, just from personal experiences and the testimonies of other people. Some things may not be shown in the physical world, but you can find it written in the hearts and souls of many people, myself included. Anybody can pm me if they want. Again, no offense meant; I don't want to try to forcefully change any person's beliefs, just share what I believe.
Ilfa
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Post RE: Religions
on: June 17, 2005 11:08
I'm a Christian, and to be more specific, a Roman Catholic Christian.:heart:
I love being so close to God. I depend all my problems on my faith and then it will pass without me being contented and not knowing it. God holds me, I will never do it if I think it's not part of the Lord's plan. :rolling:
hobbitnamedeliza
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Post RE: Religions
on: June 18, 2005 04:57
Roman Catholic here. Joined the church as an adult about...10 years ago although I had been involved with it (married to a cradle Catholic) for quite some time beforehand.
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