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lady_of_the_ring
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Post Mary Sue Who?
on: January 21, 2005 05:03
This may seem like a lame question, but I need to know just what a Mary Sue is. I've seen the term used just about everywhere, and I still don't know exactly what it is. All I'm looking for is a simple 'For Dummies' definition. Help! :banghead:
luthienkenobi
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: January 21, 2005 05:10
I think I can help you...a Mary Sue is basically a perfect person. She almost never dies and she is usually annoyingly perfect. A Gary Stu is the same...but male. I hope that helps.
lady_of_the_ring
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: January 21, 2005 05:11
Never heard of Gary Stu, but thanks.
pv
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: January 21, 2005 09:40
Lollypop's also written an "Instant Mary Sue Test," which you'll find in the Creations Corner. (Click on Fan Creations in the menu to your left, then click on Creations Corner)
http://monstersandcritics.wordpress.com/
j_mercuryuk
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: January 21, 2005 11:04
but that dosen't cover all aspecte of a mary sue through.
like the fellowship getting 'gary stuified' and they can basically do EVERYTHING. alot of mary sues can do that as well.
Faramirs_first_kiss
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: January 22, 2005 01:51
A Mary-Sue is almost always created unwittingly - the author will usually genuinely not think their character falls under this category. Most of her traits were concieved using the formula 'hey, wouldn't it be cool if she was/did/had ...' and people truly think they are creating a totally individual character. Which they would be, if there was only one of her, but their isn't. She is easily recognisable by her common traits:

Name - it's long, and beautiful, and elvish. It's either a description of her traits or the author's name in elvish, and it's often completely impossible to pronounce.

Beauty - she's always beautiful, absolutely always. Unless she's comely, attractive, gorgeous or similar things. Men like to look at her, but generally never have impure thoughts about her because there's only one person she wants to think of her in that way.

A canon lover - it's Aragorn, Legolas, Frodo, Boromir or whoever the author happens to find attractive. They're madly and blindly in love with her, though sometimes they try to deny it.

Nobility - though she might not know about it at first. A lot of the time she starts off as just a simple peasant or, worse, a girl from the real world, who is whisked off into a fantabulous adventure with the Fellowship or a few members thereof and at some point along the way discovers she is the daughter of Elrond or Aragorn or someone, sent away for safekeeping.

'Cool' eye and/or hair colour - common colours include purple, silver, gold, red, pure white and pure black. It's absolutely amazing how many people think they're being original when they choose one of these six colours.

Skill - she's a fighter and she's strong, though other than a few delicately placed scars it doesn't show. She usually doesn't like fighting, but finds it sadly necessary. She's more skilled than Aragorn and stronger than Boromir without a hint of muscle spoiling her perfect slim frame.

Powerful - she's magical. Almost always. Whether it's a subtle magic that just makes her endearing to everyone or a completely non-canon power, it's there. Common ones are the ability to heal (goes nicely with her dislike for fighting) and the ability to shapeshift, as well as seeing the future or at least premonitions. Sometimes she has wings, which as far as I'm concerned would get her burned on sight anywhere in Middle-earth.

Animals - all adore her. Sometimes they can speak to her, or at least they 'seem almost as if they understand her'. She might have a 'cool' animal as a pet, a Meara or a pegasus or a griffin. They're often beautiful and nearly always have special powers, or are the best at something.

Elven - or half-elven, or maia, or half-maia. She generally has pointy ears, at any rate. And it's from her mystical side that her fantastic powers spring. Unless it's...

Magical items - this is usually a weapon or a piece of jewellery, magic in the sense that no Tolkien weapons are magical, except possibly blue-glowing. It was given to her by someone wildly fantastic, probably Elrond, Gandalf or Aragorn, though she may not remember it. It might be the only memory she has of her...

Dark and haunted past - as a kiddo, Mary-Sue was oppressed in some way, even if this only means that she was forced to live below her status of elven princess. Her family might very well be dead, and she could be out for revenge, which could be why she has trained hard to be able to swing a sword better than anyone else in Middle-earth. Alternatively, she might have amnesia and be unable to remember anything that happened to her beyond a few key events. The author usually doesn't know about it either.

All in all, she's wonderful and perfect and everything that young female fanfic writers would love to be.

~~~~

The problem is, being Mary-Sue Aware doesn't necessarily mean you can avoid writing her. There are a lot of Rohirric Mary-Sues popping up at the moment who could, at first glance, be normal characters. I'll give you an example of a non-typical Mary-Sue: one I shamefully wrote myself when I joined CoE. She lived in the north and was, surprisingly, the exact age I myself longed to be.

Name: Eruviluiel Elei - Eruviluiel being an approximate translation of my own name (altered so I liked the sound of it more), Elei meaning 'dreams' or something similarly cliché.

Beauty: here is the place where she was most obviously not a Mary-Sue, since she was plain and had a nose that was too large and eyebrows that were bushy and dark, and I was so impressed with myself for creating a non-beautiful char. Later I realised I had just created a Middle-earth me. Also, her hair was cut short, which is a definite no-no for girls.

A canon lover: no. At least I spared everyone that, although it's possibly only because she didn't exist long enough to find one.

Nobility: I wasn't sure at first. I was definitely toying with the idea of making her an unknowing noble, to find out later in her life, and I decided that this would be a suitably cool thing to do.

Eye/hair colour: these were pretty normal, though as mentioned before her hair style was Sueishly tomboyish.

Skill: she wasn't overly skilled, but she certainly had a skill that no girl should have had - rangering. I never said she was an actual Ranger because I realised that was out of bounds, but I cleverly circumvented this boundary by creating a nickname for her that basically meant 'little Ranger'. I also said she was more of an escort than a Ranger, but these little 'side categories' do not excuse my behaviour in any way. She could handle a sword well enough to stay alive, which is too well for any girl, though of course she preferred not to fight if she could avoid it.

Powerful: thank goodness, no. The one line I never crossed, nor had any intention of crossing, was magic.

Animals: she had a pet rat who could scout for her and come to her call. I thought it was okay because a rat was unique, but oh how wrong I was.

Elven: n-no, but of Dunedan descent, which is just as bad.

Magical items: well, yes and no. She had an item given to her by Elrond which, though beautiful, was not magic - a tinderbox. Also it was given to her during the course of a thread and not at some point in her history. Though I seem to recall she had some sort of pendant reminding her of her...

Dark and haunted past: Her (noble) parents died when she was a baby, in a carriage accident, and she was saved by local peasants. She was brought up by them and, though her past wasn't particularly haunted, it was very unfulfilling for a girl of her potential.

If you aren't sickened yet, you should be. I thought that, since she wasn't beautiful or magical she couldn't possibly be a Mary-Sue, but in fact all she was was an unromantic, ugly Mary-Sue. Though my intentions were good, I committed just as heinous a crime as Willow Evenstar, the half-elf-half-hobbit with purple eyes and red hair down to her thighs who can shapeshift into a unicorn or grow butterfly wings on demand and was given Hadhafang by her half-sister when Arwen realised that she was by far the greater fighter and needed it to slay the balrog who killed her hobbit mother.

You need to watch out for your character doing anything that she shouldn't do. For female characters, this means anything other than cooking, cleaning, having children, caring for children, sewing and possibly playing a musical instrument or writing wishy-washy poetry if she's upper class. I'm sorry, I know it's sexist, but that's the way it goes. Can't escape it. You're a lot better off writing a male, and provided his loved ones weren't brutally killed, he isn't the best swordsman/bowman in the world, he isn't related to a canon character and he isn't loved by everyone then you're probably safe. The reason most Mary-Sues are girls is because most fanfic writers are girls, and they all seem to have the same aspirations to write terrible self-insertion fanfic.

In conclusion: beware 'wouldn't it be cool if'. The answer is no, it wouldn't. Or at least, not to anyone else. Write this character, by all means, but do not try and share it with anyone. Nine-year-old girls would think she was amazing, but you'd be sowing the seeds of Sueish destruction in their innocent minds too. It wouldn't be cool if.
Milliecake
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: January 22, 2005 04:33
Faramirs_first_kiss that is the best Mary Sue description I've ever read, thank you for that

I personally have nothing again Mary Sue fanfiction except...I once started a foray into the LoTRs section at ff.net, only to be overwhelmed, disappointed and put off by all the MS fiction there! I could wade through pages of it, before finding one real gem of a fic, so I gave up I also put off writing anymore of my own, definitely non MS story, because it would simply get lost amongst these two or three chapter MS stories that the author then gives up on because of low reviews

I wouldn't stop encouraging people to write these stories however. We all have imaginations and I'm sure everyone at some point has let theirs run away with them, with a story involving a desperate situation, a certain Elf/Man/Hobbit, magic and battles which only a comely wench can save them all from etc I would never tell anyone to give up on writing, it's very creative and sometimes theraputic to do

But I do agree with faintingstar that such stories should be beta read and only then shared, if only to avoid as much disappointment for the author as possible - I've read my fair share of flaming reviews regarding the Mary Sue of the story and they can be disheartening. et:
j_mercuryuk
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: January 22, 2005 07:06
*appluads FFK*
great discribtion: mind if i use it as a referance to take the piss of MS in our (me&bros) fanfic. *muses* maybe we should give her rainbow hair.
CoE dosen't accept MS does it? So if they accept a fanfic it doesn't have a MS in does it?
erm. . .please say that Willow Evenstar charater isn't really? PLEASE!!!!

I find a major thing cropping up is fellowship memebers being Gary Stuified. . .usaully Aragorn, 'cause Legolas has to be the one being tortured, through Legolas still has his fair share.
Ireth_Telrunya
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: January 22, 2005 11:48
EEERK!!! Oh boy, am I in trouble... Thanks j_mercuryuk for pointing out the Gary Stu thing! Argh... I'm really glad you mentioned that, casue my fanfic, The Ring-Keeper's Quest, undoubtedly causes Elrond to be Gary Stu-ified!!! At least, the un-revised version did, as well as containing a Mary Sue. Thank you for bringing it up! I'll be sure to edit my story lots more so that doesn't happen!!!
Far over the Misty Mountains cold, to dungeons deep and caverns old. We must away ere break of day, to claim our long forgotten gold.
j_mercuryuk
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: January 22, 2005 12:03
Your welcome, anything to keep the evil ones away *shudders*
Faramirs_first_kiss
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: January 22, 2005 02:40
Heehee, thanks guys! Mary-Sue is a person who haunted all my stories and fanfics up to the age of fifteen and caused them to be burned, never to be shown to another person as I would die of shame.

Having said that, yes it is fun to create a Mary-Sue, and some people who are well aware of the dangers and would never share their tales still write about her. I could (but won't) name several Sues who still reside in my head from years past and are fun to consider every now and again, but I will never write about them. To me the saddest thing is a Sue who is beautifully written, because it displays wasted talent, unless of course it's just a venting of pent-up Sueness.

j_mercuryuk, feel free to use this little Sue-pointer-outer. Willow Evenstar doesn't exist, or at least not to my knowledge. There are many out there who are just as hideous, however - she was no exaggeration. I seem to remember being on the CoE RPG chat for about fifteen minutes and seeing three who could have been mistaken for her if it wasn't for the various garish colours of their hair.
Aragorns-Estel
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: January 22, 2005 02:50
ah, the mary-sue battle goes on forever. mary-sues dont bug me all that much, unless they are to the extreme. what ive also noticed is that in stories and fanfiction, only human or cross-human girls get bashed. gary-stus almost never get bashed. u can make a dwarf or dragon (in a book i read) a girl and a mary-sue, but nobody will say anything cuz they are not human. and ive also noticed that if a guy writes a mary-sue, not many people care, but if a girl writer does, people think she's just putting herself in there. sorry to all the eowyn fans, but if u think about it, she's pretty much a mary-sue herslef.

mary-sue finding is hard becuase the definition of a mary sue is still not defined to detail. everything can be arguable. there is no exact definition or description of a mary sue because they are so diverse. in the book im writing now, there are two teen girls, and im trying to down the mary-sue factor as much as possible, but its hard becuase everything is debatable.

sure, mary sues are there. unless they fit every description of one possible, then they dont bug me. some people over-react and if they see a teenage girl with a mysiterious past and they have romance in the story, readers think "mary-sue! must flame them!" some people need to be a little more open minded. not every girl lead is a mary sue.

there. im done ranting now.
Faramirs_first_kiss
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: January 23, 2005 01:57
The truth of the matter is that most fiction, be it books, films or any internet site follows not ordinary people but the extrordinary people, those who do stand out amongst their peers and do something different, and often the story calls for these. If the writer is sufficiently talented, and the story calls for it, then they can write a Mary-Sue without making you want to stick your feet in a meat grinder. Éowyn is a Mary-Sue, there's no escaping it. She's an orphan, she has long, lovely hair and is beautiful, she's a girl who can fight and she falls in love with a principal char, two in fact. But Tolkien was a master wordsmith and, because Éowyn was the single person in the story who stood out as unique (and possibly because the story didn't follow her for any great length of time) he could get away with it.

Now this is all very well for original fiction, but fanfiction's a different matter. The LotR 'beautiful fighting woman' slot has already been filled. The thing about fanfic that annoys me most is when people (and I don't mean when they're deliberately writing a story based on the idea of a specific alternate universe) carelessly change or ignore the canon. By putting another Mary-Sue character into Middle-earth, you are detracting from Éowyn's uniqueness, and ignoring the fact that Tolkien wanted her to be the single woman in Middle-earth who could rise above the idea of what a woman in that society was. To some extent, even PJ did this when he Mary-Sueified Arwen by giving her Glorfindel's 'bit'.
Aisheeya
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: January 23, 2005 02:08
j_mercuryuk: We try to be careful to get rid of all Mary Sues, so if a story has been accepted it *shouldn't* contain one. Sometimes, it's a bit hard to tell from the first chapter though, so we might ask more samples in order to decide whether to accept a story or not. And of course some Mary Sues might appear only later in the story (or "normal" characters might became like that).

When it comes to Tolkien's characters... Well, it doesn't that much. Eowyn is a Mary Sue, I think, and movie Arwen also. It is, however, a bit different from other MSs. And of course the same goes with the male characters.

We also tend to accept parody-Mary Sues. It can be fun if the Sueness is taken to the extreme (purposefully).

And the linkies to Lolly's texts:
The Instant Mary-Sue Test
Who is Mary Sue?
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: January 23, 2005 06:48
I wouldn't go as far as to label every beautiful and active female character in a fanfic or RPG as a "Mary Sue". If you've read more than just LOTR and The Hobbit, you may have found out references of elf women hunting and human women fighting (Aredhel, Haleth and Emeldir, for example), and in HoME 10 it is told that in extreme need, elf women could also fight. So, I wouldn't automatically dismiss as a Mary Sue, for example, an elf woman from Mirkwood who is an experienced hunter and takes part in the defence of her homeland when it is attacked during the War of the Ring. (Unless she's made the love interest of Legolas, of course, and/or equipped with completely unrealistic skills and characteristics. )

BTW, here's instructions for making a perfect Mary Sue. :angel: :evil:

(Edited to fix the link)

[Edited on 23/1/2005 by Morwinyoniel]
j_mercuryuk
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: January 23, 2005 09:45


When it comes to Tolkien's characters... Well, it doesn't that much. Eowyn is a Mary Sue, I think, and movie Arwen also.


i was thinking that eowyn was a mary sue.

thanks Aisheeya and FFK for your answers.
Steorra
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: January 23, 2005 04:08
Ahhh, Mary-Sues...

I've never liked Mary Sues (except when I was 12-13, and the only ones I liked were my own; I couldn't stand reading any others because of all the competition for Legolas's emotions ) and I have yet to read a good one (unless you count Eowyn, in which I am mostly inclined to agree that she is a MS, but a good one). I hate the fact that FF.net is now swarming with them, and finding a good piece of fanfiction is far from possible.

Every now and then I go to FF.net and find an obvious MS, and then give the author constructive criticism (not flames, though, I hate flaming, it's so evil... unless it's an art theif or something).

Although, I admit I've written quite a few back in my day, and everyone here who said "it's OK to write them but keep the the heck to yourself" is right. Someday I will take one of my Mary-Sues, make some humorous commentary and weave it into the story, and post it up for everyone's enjoyment.

Valete, omnes!
Milliecake
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: January 24, 2005 02:13
I never considered that Eowyn or Arwen, or Princess Leia from Star Wars for that matter! as Mary Sues. LotRs was written in a time when women were slowly breaking out of pre-defined roles and to me both Eowyn and Arwen represented the changes that occured in that era; one woman determined to fight for king and country (to this day women in the UK armed forces are still prevented from fighting on the front lines!); the other turning away from a role of what was expected of her, defying her father, family and race.

Yes both were beautiful, though Arwen was an Elf, and Eowyn's beauty I felt came more from her cold, aloof nature than so much her physical appearance. And while we never came to know Arwen as well as we might, to me Eowyn was a fully fleshed out character, with flaws, heartache, fear, courage. She wasn't the best fighter, though perhaps the most determined, and she went to what she knew would probably be a painful death. And after everything she went through, she didn't win the heart of Aragorn as most Mary Sues would, but found wisdom and hope instead (and Faramir woohooo! )

And something else that troubles me a little, is how we're quick to label the women in so many tales as Mary Sues, yet we never say, Oh that Aragorn is such a Gary Stu, he's so perfect, knowing, handsome, brave etc. Perhaps because so many readers are female and we have expectations of men to act like men, to be all those things, yet when a woman does it...we don't like it :dizzy:

If someone could actually write a MS who was admirable, someone who other women could read about and think, You go girl!, someone we could respect and identify with, then to me she would no longer be a Mary Sue, but her own, unique character
Milliecake
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: January 24, 2005 03:48
I see what you're saying faintingstar. It's encouraging to see so many stories where women can be equals or strive to better their situations or show courage in so many ways.

The problem with a lot of fanfiction Mary Sues is that they tend to follow Faramirs_first_kiss' descriptions, immensely strong/beautiful/powerful, usually all three! Of course some women can be all of those things but most of us aren't. I prefer to read stories where the women are flawed and yet have strong characters or strength of conviction or strong morals etc. I'd sooner encourage the younger generations to write about ordinary people going on to do extraordinary things, rather than characters who get by using their 'special' abilities
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: January 24, 2005 04:03
Good post, faintingstar.

My definition of a Mary Sue/Gary Stu character in a nutshell is: A completely unbelievable character that a fanfic writer uses to realize her/his own love/sex fantasies about a character in an original story written or filmed by someone else. In the case of LOTR, it mostly seems to be fantasies about the Fellowship members in the movies.

According to that definition, I wouldn't say that Éowyn is a "Mary Sue", mainly for two reasons:
1) She is an original character in an original story, not in a fanfic;
2) She's fully believable. Granted, she is noble and beautiful, does something extraordinary, and has a crush on one of the main male characters (and ends up marrying an important secondary character). But, she's no superwoman -- she doesn't have any unusual skills or magical weapons, she doesn't solve every problem, she doesn't remain unscathed, she doesn't get the guy she's originally after...

I wouldn't even say that movie Arwen, the way she was portrayed, was a "Mary Sue", although she was pushed more to the foreground than the trophy wife Arwen from the book. If she would have been put to fight at Helm's Deep (a concept the filmmakers fortunately abandoned), then she might have filled the MS criteria.
Faramirs_first_kiss
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: January 24, 2005 07:37
Well that's the bite, isn't it... she's not a Mary-Sue if she's believable. I know a girl who's got fantastic red hair and charisma from here to ya-ya, as well as being very intelligent. On the other hand, she can be clumsy and inelegant and has a huge weakness for gossip, and always puts her foot in it at just the wrong time. It's not just 'a flaw' that's important, it's a fully rounded, well-balanced character. The flaws should be just as major as the good things, and should affect her in a realistic way. Again, this comes down to the ability of the writer. The usual flaws are a tragic past and some insecurity, so much so that these are practically defining characteristics of the 12-year-old Mary-Sue. They usually affect her by causing outbursts of wailing every so often, but other than that are only vaguely remembered.

A good writer is an observer and portrayer of people. It would take a careful observer to notice that one of my flaws is an unwillingness to share everything that's on my mind as over the years I have developed ways of hiding the fact, and it would take an equally skilled portrayal to get across something that isn't said subtley and consistantly. I'm not saying that everyone should be at the point where they can do this before they share their stories with the world, just that writing like this can make a potential Mary-Sue not seem like a Mary-Sue at all.

To clear something up from earlier, the comment about women just cooking and cleaning was relevant only to LotR, and fantasy set in a similarly patriarchal society. It's a fact of life that our history included this sexism and the deep-rooted belief that women were inferior, and knowledge of the attitudes of the people you are writing about is important. I am totally for more positive roles for women in fiction and real life, but the mainstream doesn't seem to be able to handle it quite yet. In many books and films, women seem to be either tacked on for the sake of political correctness and inclusiveness and have little role of their own in the plot, or take over and save the world single-handedly. Another often poorly done technique is to try and create a medieval fantasy world with modern ideals of equality: most of the time it seems artifical.

On the other hand, there is indeed hope, and there are several recent examples of this sort of thing being done skillfully and believably. Take, for example, Angua in Terry Pratchett's Discworld books. For those who don't know these books, I shall tell you something about her character. She is a beautiful woman and can change her form at will to a powerful, deadly wolf with an amazing sense of smell. She has risen through the ranks of the Watch to somewhere approximately third in command, due to her skill, fighting prowess and intelligence. She is also madly in love with a man who is actually the heir to the throne, though he chooses to keep this knowledge hidden. Sounds like the ultimate Sue, but TP manages to pull it off. The element of satire helps somewhat, but he has managed to create a believable fantasy world where women, though they are still downtrodden, can find their way into positions of power if they are suitably determined. He shows an understanding of human nature in the explanation he gives for this (paraphrased since I don't have the book to hand): 'in the Watch, it doesn't matter if you're a man or a woman, so long as you're one of the lads. Éowyn and Arwen are like this, well written Mary-Sues who don't jar the nerves.

The point that to rant against Mary-Sues is to squash people's dreams is a valid one, and I swear I have no intention of doing that: I too value the power of dreams. When I was twelve, my dreams were all about myself as a Sueish character, and I enjoyed and adored them, and everyone should be able to dream like this if they want to. My dreams have matured, though, to the point where I find it more satisfying to picture believeable, realistic characters facing down difficult situations and triumphing over adversity with no superhuman powers to aid them. That's where the real hope and power lies for me.
ordinary people going on to do extraordinary things
Well said, Milliecake.
j_mercuryuk
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: January 24, 2005 01:47
even though FF.net is swarming with MS, they also have some really jewels of FF in there as well. FF.net is were i go to read fanfiction (most of it). it can take me awhile, the the good ones i find are very good.
lady_of_the_ring
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: January 24, 2005 01:57
Thanks for all the feedback. I read almost all of my fanfics on fanfiction.net, too. And, in defense of Mary Sue, I do like to read the teeth-grinding ones, sometimes. :naughty:
lady_of_the_ring
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: January 24, 2005 02:49
And now for the grindstone . . . I have a fanfiction I'm working on, and now I'm afraid my character might be a bit too Mary Sueish. I took Lollypop's "The Instant Mary-Sue Test," and she only scored 4. But her qualities are some of the more outstanding and (gulp) annoying of the Mary Sue genre.

For example, she was transported to Middle-earth from the modern world. Eek! She also has . . . (forgive me!) magical powers.

I've tried to come up with good reasons ([cough] excuses) for this, but I'm beginning to cringe with fear. Plus, she uses her knowledge of the books/movies to get by in Middle-earth.

So far, she isn't falling in love, having anyone else fall in love with her, and she's never met any unicorns. But I'm still worried.

Have I crossed the line, or am I still on the safe side of the Mary Sue chasm? :feedback:
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: January 25, 2005 02:44
Your character indeed does sound a bit Sue-ish, being transported to M-E from the modern world and having magical powers. But, probably she's not any more Sue-ish than my first (and still existing) RPG character, with whom I've had fun adventuring in an Alternative Universe LOTR story with a bunch of not-so-puritanic Tolkien fans.
j_mercuryuk
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: January 25, 2005 05:33
having mary sue charaterics doesn't make it a mary sue. just be careful how the character develops.
Mistah_Finderáva
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: February 03, 2005 12:26
Hm... this is interesting. Most people seems to put a "="-sign between Mary Sues and Aragorn, Legolas or anyone else on the good side. What about the 'other' side, are there any evil Mary Sues?

To me, they seem to be scarce, since the people and creatures on the dark side mostly are twisted and flawed to the extreme it's part of their nature. It's almost impossible to create a character that's both evil and flawless. I have a character in a fan fiction, Záhovar, who might have been a Mary Sue. She's an elf, she has long hair, unusual eyecolour, she's a warrior (sort of), has a dark past, is beautiful (compared to orcs and other such beings) and scored 7 on the Instant MS-test. Sounds horrible, doesn't it? Unless you take in consideration that those feats which is Mary Sue'ish on the good side, are flaws among most evil creatures.

There might be another reason too. I don't think many young girls fantasize about being evil, thus the few MS-stories. It's an interesting topic
Nienquia
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: February 03, 2005 01:11
Actually, Evil Mary Sues appear quite frequently in fan fiction. They are sometimes the daugther of Sauron and vampires are very popular too. Remarkable fact: they are never orcs or Uruk-ais.

But Evil Mary sues can just as well be flawless. They are beautiful, smart, witty, powerful, can fight and have usually great magical powers. They often stand undefeated in battle. Their true enemies are hardly ever Aragorn or Legolas. Most of the time, they are found to be after Gimli or Frodo or Sam. It's usually Aragorn or Legolas who convert them to good.

I have a vampire Queen in one of my stories and I had to be really, really careful not too make her all-powerful and invincable and give her some real flaws. Like her total disrespect for any lifeform, recklessness and carelessness.
The label "evil" is not enough as a flaw, the villain should thus act evil. Evil Mary sues are hardly ever caught in the act of torturing or slaughtering. The worst crime they'll commit is making snappy remarks. Even vampire Sues are hardly found actually sucking the blood out of someone's neck.

And young girls do find it interesting to create evil characters. Especially with the rising interest for gothic. It's also a nice excuse for wearing black.

And I agree, Mary Sues give lots of interesting matter to discuss!
Aralinn
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: February 03, 2005 02:56
I agree with what someone said before, that MS can be good if they're well written. I happen to like MS,as long as they actually have a plot. In fact, I have a story on ff.net and my character is a MS. It's my way to live out my dreams of being in a fantasy world, and I think that thats fine. And I find it extremely unfair that any female character that can fight and enjoys to do it is automatically labeled a MS. I hate stories where the girl does nothing but cook and clean. And I would never write one, no matter how realistic it is. I'm a girl and I love to fight wth swords and I love weapons. I have very little, or no respect for female characters who cant fight.

I do understand that a lot of fics are MS of the really bad, even terrible persuasion, but not all of them are bad.There are some really great MS out there. All I'm saying is that we shouldn't put down MS because not all of them are bad.

btw..if you wanna check out my LOTR fic on ff.net, then go here: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2236885/1/
Faramirs_first_kiss
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: February 03, 2005 11:22
Evil Mary-Sues crop up less than good ones, but still very often. I remember reading a parody Sue by someone who'd clearly seen one too many perfect evil characters, where a female Nazgul came and took over. The hallmark signs were much the same as those of a good Mary-Sue.

I seem to have caused a lot of contention with my post about what women in Tolkien do, but I'm afraid to say, however much I don't like it, the post still stands. Elven women would defend their homes if there was an attack that the men alone could not fend off, and Rohirric women would fight if there was no other choice, but they received little training for this and it was more last-ditch ferocity than any ability to fight.

Today, in real life, I don't have huge amounts of patience for women who are completely submissive and I feel sorry for those women who are forced into submission, but when I'm writing something set in Tolkien's world I respect Tolkien's rules about women, the same as I respect his rules about unicorns and flying kangaroos. I have loads of female characters, and I love playing them. There's a healer who is incredibly compassionate but the most scared little thing in the world. There are two ladies who very much enjoy the (small) opening into the political world granted to them by their husbands, but are otherwise content to more traditional lady-like things and in fact delight in pleasing their husbands by doing them. I even have a character who is a ... woman of negotiable affection, shall we say, as whenever there are girls who have no opportunity to earn their keep apart from maidwork and there isn't enough maidwork to go round, you get women who have to find other means to support themselves, and they just won't be taken seriously if they try to pass themselves off as soldiers.

Interestingly, though, when I started writing in a different reality from LotR where women were considered equal, I by and large kept the same characters. They were given little freedoms beyond those they had in LotR but they didn't need any more because they had survived and developed for so long without those things.

Spurred on by this thread, I am now trying to write a character who is much closer to the borderline of Mary-Suedom, just to see if I can do it. I'd challenge everyone else who enjoys writing but prefers Sueish characters to try something different. It's a fantastic way to learn.
pv
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: February 04, 2005 01:47
When you talk about women sticking to cooking and cleaning etc., you are creating a gender stereotype, which is as avoidable as creating a Mary Sue. I would say that a Mary Sue is more interesting to read about than a stereotyped woman - Mary Sues are nobody's doormats.
http://monstersandcritics.wordpress.com/
Faramirs_first_kiss
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: February 04, 2005 06:35
Perhaps, but they're not Tolkien, they're completely anti-Tolkien. That's my main point: I find LotR fanfic with butt-kicking elven warrior princesses completely lacking in credibility, unless it is specifically situated in an alternate 'what if?' reality.

Also, if you think women who do what their husbands/fathers/etc tell them are boring to read about, then you haven't been exposed to the right reading material. Try 'Streetcar Named Desire' for one.
Milliecake
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: February 04, 2005 06:48
Does anyone have a link to a non-LotRs Mary Sue test? I created an evil female character in another fandom a few years back - not beautiful, strong or magical, but selfish, neurotic, greedy, sadistic who ends up dying because she tries to kill one of the main characters etc - and I'd be interested to see if she came out more MS than not. I guess I never considered that even the evil ones can be Mary Sues!
j_mercuryuk
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: February 04, 2005 07:47
i'm writing a fanfic where, and please don't kill me (it is an AU fic), I turn Glorfindel into a women/she-elf. I don't think that says a MS through, but now I'm abit parnode (sp.), but then i guss that that's not much of a change .
i've read good fanfics where there are women in elven armies, but they're not MS.

[Edited on 5/2/2005 by j_mercuryuk]
Morwinyoniel
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Post RE: Mary Sue Who?
on: February 05, 2005 08:20
Faramirs_first_kiss, from your posts I get the impression that for you, every female character that acts against the norms set by the society she lives in is a Mary Sue? For me, that's not necessarily the case.

I agree with you that Middle-earth stories with kick-butt warrior elf princesses are very rarely in accordance with the world Tolkien created. I also agree that it is perfectly possible to create strong and interesting female characters who have nothing to do with fighting, as you yourself have done. I suppose those characters are humans and live in relatively peaceful times; but, extraordinary times may require extraordinary deeds even from women -- if you've read the Silmarillion, you may remember Haleth and Emeldir the Manhearted, neither of which I would call very Sue-ish. If you haven't, I can quote the book for what they did.
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